Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Muahahaha

Zebra3 wrote: »

The state should have got possession of that property while it was throwing billions at the bank.

it was a missed opportunity for sure. I think it was mooted at the time but as usual it was just politicians blabber

nowecant

I wonder what the effect of shutting off the left turn from Dawson Street to Nassau street for the next 6 months will have on this?

It would be great if they decided to permanently remove it. It would be the perfect opportunity.

http://www.thejournal.ie/changes-to-traffic-dublin-city-centre-1878881-Jan2015/

LXFlyer

nowecant wrote: »

I wonder what the effect of shutting off the left turn from Dawson Street to Nassau street for the next 6 months will have on this?

It would be great if they decided to permanently remove it. It would be the perfect opportunity.

http://www.thejournal.ie/changes-to-traffic-dublin-city-centre-1878881-Jan2015/

Thankfully for the thousands of bus passengers that will face longer journeys because of this, it is only temporary.

The buses will revert to their old routing once the works are complete.

Aard

Once people get used to a bus-free Church Lane, I'm not sure anybody will want to go back. It'll be interesting to see how people react to the change in Suffolk Street.

cgcsb

Suffolk street is a nightmare for pedestrians, some welcome relief.

seamus

Aard wrote: »

Once people get used to a bus-free Church Lane, I'm not sure anybody will want to go back. It'll be interesting to see how people react to the change in Suffolk Street.

Yeah, two places with heavy pedestrian traffic.

There's a great opportunity there where you pedestrianise the entire area from Trinity St to Grafton St, including St. Andrew's St, meaning you have unbroken pedestrian access all the way from George's St to St. Stephen's Green.

All of those streets around that area, South William Street in particular, are massively frustrating for pedestrian and motorists alike because there's far too much traffic and not enough space.

The should very seriously look at pedestrianising that whole area - from Trinity St all the way up to Stephen's Green shopping centre, and all of the streets in between. Create a proper centre of tourism in Dublin that doesn't have tourist trap pubs and restaurants on every corner, like Temple Bar.

nowecant

I think it is a serious possibility that it will happen and should definitely be looked at by the council. It would also improve College Green by removing a lot of traffic and making it easier in future to pedestrianize it

I know that in the past they have reported the upgrading of many of the streets in the area to make for a better pedestrian experience http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/civic-spaces-to-be-developed-in-areas-west-of-grafton-street-1.1944632

You can see some images here as well http://www.irishtimes.com/draft-plan-for-dublin-s-grafton-street-quarter-1.1573479

LXFlyer

It's possible that the buses will share Nassau Street and the lower part of Grafton Street with LUAS in both directions, rather than operating via Suffolk Street & Church Lane, but the plan most definitely is that they will not be using the new diversionary routes once the works are complete.

LXFlyer

seamus wrote: »

Yeah, two places with heavy pedestrian traffic.

There's a great opportunity there where you pedestrianise the entire area from Trinity St to Grafton St, including St. Andrew's St, meaning you have unbroken pedestrian access all the way from George's St to St. Stephen's Green.

All of those streets around that area, South William Street in particular, are massively frustrating for pedestrian and motorists alike because there's far too much traffic and not enough space.

The should very seriously look at pedestrianising that whole area - from Trinity St all the way up to Stephen's Green shopping centre, and all of the streets in between. Create a proper centre of tourism in Dublin that doesn't have tourist trap pubs and restaurants on every corner, like Temple Bar.

I suspect that unfortunately the two multi-storey car parks within that area have put pay to any such plan.

It's difficult to see how it could be achieved and retain access to them.

nowecant

Here is their maps of the diversions

https://www.luascrosscity.ie/news/lcc-closure-of-left-turn-from-dawson-st-to-nassau-st/

Muahahaha

lxflyer wrote: »

I suspect that unfortunately the two multi-storey car parks within that area have put pay to any such plan.

It's difficult to see how it could be achieved and retain access to them.

You're right, the opposition to it from Brown Thomas and others would be fierce. But it really needs to be looked at if they are to do the job right. We have a CPO system in place that is supposed to prioritise the common good so hopefully some common sense comes into it at some stage down the line.

cgcsb

seamus wrote: »

Yeah, two places with heavy pedestrian traffic.

There's a great opportunity there where you pedestrianise the entire area from Trinity St to Grafton St, including St. Andrew's St, meaning you have unbroken pedestrian access all the way from George's St to St. Stephen's Green.

All of those streets around that area, South William Street in particular, are massively frustrating for pedestrian and motorists alike because there's far too much traffic and not enough space.

The should very seriously look at pedestrianising that whole area - from Trinity St all the way up to Stephen's Green shopping centre, and all of the streets in between. Create a proper centre of tourism in Dublin that doesn't have tourist trap pubs and restaurants on every corner, like Temple Bar.

Your big obstacle there is the Drury and BT car parks. CPO them?

cgcsb

lxflyer wrote: »

It's possible that the buses will share Nassau Street and the lower part of Grafton Street with LUAS in both directions, rather than operating via Suffolk Street & Church Lane, but the plan most definitely is that they will not be using the new diversionary routes once the works are complete.

Is it feasible for almost every bus route in the city to share space with luas around Nassau-Grafton-College Green? Some of the routes will have to change permanently, otherwise you've a wall of yellow double deckers and trams going nowhere.

Aard

Perhaps some routes could remain diverted via Camden St to reduce pressure on Lower Grafton.

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

Is it feasible for almost every bus route in the city to share space with luas around Nassau-Grafton-College Green? Some of the routes will have to change permanently, otherwise you've a wall of yellow double deckers and trams going nowhere.

Well I don't see why the far greater number of bus passengers should have a longer journey to facilitate fewer tram passengers. If not then Suffolk Street and Church Lane come back into the equation northbound, and then onto the south side of College Green which could become a two way bus lane.

Aard wrote: »

Perhaps some routes could remain diverted via Camden St to reduce pressure on Lower Grafton.

One would hope not - it is significantly slower via Camden Street.

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

Well I don't see why the far greater number of bus passengers should have a longer journey to facilitate fewer tram passengers. If not then Suffolk Street and Church Lane come back into the equation northbound, and then onto the south side of College Green which could become a two way bus lane.



One would hope not - it is significantly slower via Camden Street.

Why? Because if all buses go down that route after Luas is in there everybody will be going slower than if some buses went around.

Sources tell me RPA still unwilling to state how much of a traffic impact it will have -- need for 24 hour CG bus gate etc.

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

Why? Because if all buses go down that route after Luas is in there everybody will be going slower than if some buses went around.

Sources tell me RPA still unwilling to state how much of a traffic impact it will have -- need for 24 hour CG bus gate etc.

So do you think it acceptable that a much greater number of people on board the buses should facilitate a smaller group of tram users by having to endure a longer journey?

There will have to be a 24 hour public transport gate - nothing less is going to work.

I still find it utterly disgraceful that no analysis of the negative impact on bus services was made at the time of the Railway Order application.

Aard

With traffic management measures put in I don't see why the Camden/Georges route should be any slower than via Earlsfort Tce.

LXFlyer

Aard wrote: »

With traffic management measures put in I don't see why the Camden/Georges route should be any slower than via Earlsfort Tce.

Right - try that on any Thursday, Friday or Saturday night when taxis cause mayhem. Do you seriously think that is going to change?


It's perfectly possible for southbound buses to share the entire section from College Street to Nassau Street with LUAS - with no bus stops on that section and only pedestrian lights that's not going to cause unnecessary delays.


I don't see why northbound buses could not share Nassau Street either, with the stops on Suffolk Street removed thereby removing any sticking point.

nowecant

At least the new conta flow Bus lane at the bleeding horse will help improve the times. http://www.dublincycling.ie/cycling/bleeding-horse-contraflow-open-1100-wed-14th-jan-2015 The are also making Pierce Street a double bus lane.

While I understand that it will certainly cause difficulty moving traffic away from Suffolk street and eventually full pedestrianisation (hopefully) of college green i believe it is inevitable and the right thing to do.

cgcsb wrote: »

Your big obstacle there is the Drury and BT car parks. CPO them?

I think BT and the owners of Trinity Street should simply redevelop them as shops/retail. (Does the council own Dury Street????) Give them notice that over the next 3 years (??) that traffic will keep finding it harder to access these areas, through removal of access and increasing the wait times at red lights to give better access for pedestrians.

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

So do you think it acceptable that a much greater number of people on board the buses should facilitate a smaller group of tram users by having to endure a longer journey?

If all the buses are kept as before Luas started then everybody is going to be slower... is that better?

lxflyer wrote: »

There will have to be a 24 hour public transport gate - nothing less is going to work.

Indeed, my point is that the RPA still won't say this officially, not even to their transport counterparts in other state agencies and bodies.

lxflyer wrote: »

I still find it utterly disgraceful that no analysis of the negative impact on bus services was made at the time of the Railway Order application.

I agree. I can't agree stronger.

The railway order process should have looked at everything -- including the safety and flow for walking and cycling, bus priority so buses are no worse off as much as possible, the taxi rank relocation, detail of car access and any other street layout etc changes needed or wanted.

What happened was like giving a developer permission for a big shopping centre or housing development and telling them to sort out the transport arrangements on your own.

lxflyer wrote: »

Right - try that on any Thursday, Friday or Saturday night when taxis cause mayhem. Do you seriously think that is going to change?


It's perfectly possible for southbound buses to share the entire section from College Street to Nassau Street with LUAS - with no bus stops on that section and only pedestrian lights that's not going to cause unnecessary delays.


I don't see why northbound buses could not share Nassau Street either, with the stops on Suffolk Street removed thereby removing any sticking point.

Camden St to Dame St will need to be looked at sooner or later with the amount of buses on it and a growing amount of cycling on it, with a long-time substandard design -- bicycles are 30% of the traffic on the carriageway at the junction of Dame St and George's St!

Here's a number of things which could be done, from total revamp to the minimum:

(A) A BRT-like route with access to car parks and drop offs etc
(B) A limited amount of bus gates points to stop through traffic
(C) Removal of most parking and revamp lanes etc
(D) Fixing of lanes, removal of some parking, relocation of loading
(E) Enforcement of current clearways, bus/cycle lanes etc

LXFlyer

nowecant wrote: »

At least the new conta flow Bus lane at the bleeding horse will help improve the times. http://www.dublincycling.ie/cycling/bleeding-horse-contraflow-open-1100-wed-14th-jan-2015 The are also making Pierce Street a double bus lane.

While I understand that it will certainly cause difficulty moving traffic away from Suffolk street and eventually full pedestrianisation (hopefully) of college green i believe it is inevitable and the right thing to do.

I think BT and the owners of Trinity Street should simply redevelop them as shops/retail. (Does the council own Dury Street????) Give them notice that over the next 3 years (??) that traffic will keep finding it harder to access these areas, through removal of access and increasing the wait times at red lights to give better access for pedestrians.

I don't think you are going to get full pedestrianisation of College Green - it is too important and critical as a public transport artery.


You could certainly get the northern half converted into a plaza, with two lanes retained on the southern and eastern sides to allow buses access Dame Street and Grafton Street.


I wish you good luck in getting the car parks closed - DCC have shown no desire to do that whatsoever.

nowecant

lxflyer wrote: »

I wish you good luck in getting the car parks closed - DCC have shown no desire to do that whatsoever.

I would settle for complete removal of onstreet parking in that area in the short term and increasing the widths of the footpaths. Diliveries should also be limited to the very early morning, same as it is on Grafton Street.

I think this would even improve the driving experience for many by taking away unepected bottlenecks when people are trying to parallel park and hold up traffic or with badly parked delivery vans on Exchequer Street

nowecant

This might also be of interest, i remember seeing it a while back http://irishcycle.com/2014/01/20/artist-impressions-of-key-city-centre-streets/

EDIT:
http://irishcycle.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/NTA-city-centre-report.pdf
Specifically page 63 and the text arround it.

It should be noted however that DCC distanced themselves from this report (Irish times article) but i recon it was just flying the kite

cgcsb

lxflyer wrote: »

Well I don't see why the far greater number of bus passengers should have a longer journey to facilitate fewer tram passengers. If not then Suffolk Street and Church Lane come back into the equation northbound, and then onto the south side of College Green which could become a two way bus lane.



One would hope not - it is significantly slower via Camden Street.

The only choice at this point is some people have slower bus journeys or everyone, bus and tram have a slower journey

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

The only choice at this point is some people have slower bus journeys or everyone, bus and tram have a slower journey

And at the risk of repeating myself - the greater number of people who are on the buses are being discommoded - please explain to me the logic of that? You're suggesting that it's better to favour less people, i.e. the tram users.

Where is there proof that trams would be slowed? There would be no bus stops and there are no tram stops on Lower Grafton Street and Nassau Street so I don't see the issue.

I've never noticed any particular queue of buses heading south on that stretch of road.

Suffolk Street yes, in the opposite direction, but that's because of bus stops. Take those stops out and you would improve the flow.

cgcsb

lxflyer wrote: »

And at the risk of repeating myself - the greater number of people who are on the buses are being discommoded - please explain to me the logic of that? You're suggesting that it's better to favour less people, i.e. the tram users.

Where is there proof that trams would be slowed? There would be no bus stops and there are no tram stops on Lower Grafton Street and Nassau Street so I don't see the issue.

I've never noticed any particular queue of buses heading south on that stretch of road.

Suffolk Street yes, in the opposite direction, but that's because of bus stops. Take those stops out and you would improve the flow.

I didn't say that luas should get priority over all buses, I said we don't have a choice. Luas bxd is happening. If every bus in Dublin continues to use that route along with very long trams, it'll only take one red light to have a queue stretching the length of D2

Carawaystick

nowecant wrote: »

While I understand that it will certainly cause difficulty moving traffic away from Suffolk street and eventually full pedestrianisation (hopefully) of college green i believe it is inevitable and the right thing to do.

You do know there is a tram line being built through College green, making it almost the opposite of inevitable that full pedestrianization of College Green will ever happen?

monument

Carawaystick wrote: »

You do know there is a tram line being built through College green, making it almost the opposite of inevitable that full pedestrianization of College Green will ever happen?

Trams and pedestrianisation works well in many European cities.

A few examples here: https://voony.wordpress.com/2012/10/23/transit-as-part-of-the-urban-fabric/

It's not full pedestrianisation, but I've seen it work in a few cities and it works well in many others.

Aard

The tramway in Nice goes through Place Massena at grade with little fuss.