Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

AngryLips

monument wrote: »

Trams and pedestrianisation works well in many European cities.

A few examples here: https://voony.wordpress.com/2012/10/23/transit-as-part-of-the-urban-fabric/

It's not full pedestrianisation, but I've seen it work in a few cities and it works well in many others.

I think the pedestrian right-of-way like some of those in the link and similar to the concourse outside the GPO (which I know isn't really a pedestrian ROW at all) could work really well for College Green. Does anyone know if the specs for this section of the city as part of BXD works has detailed what the streetscape here will look like?

Aard

AngryLips wrote: »

Does anyone know if the specs for this section of the city as part of BXD works has detailed what the streetscape here will look like?

Afaik it's left up to DCC.

nowecant

Its not full pedestrianisation but it looks like a great start

http://irishcycle.com/2015/06/10/public-imput-wanted-on-major-dublin-city-centre-transport-plan/

The full report "Dublin City Centre Transport Study - 2015" is here http://www.dublincity.ie/TransportStudy

qweerty

nowecant wrote: »

Its not full pedestrianisation but it looks like a great start

http://irishcycle.com/2015/06/10/public-imput-wanted-on-major-dublin-city-centre-transport-plan/

The full report "Dublin City Centre Transport Study - 2015" is here http://www.dublincity.ie/TransportStudy

Hasn't this been proposed so many times before? How likely is an ineffectual city council going to be able to push this through against likely opposition.

nowecant

I would not expect many of their suggestions to be put in place in the proposed timeframe, but any progress is better than none. Pedestrianization of Suffolk Street, 24 hour bus gate on college green, widening of footpaths. Building coach parking facilities outside the city centre. all great moves

LXFlyer

qweerty wrote: »

Hasn't this been proposed so many times before? How likely is an ineffectual city council going to be able to push this through against likely opposition.

Well this time it's not just DCC - the NTA are involved as well.

monument

qweerty wrote: »

Hasn't this been proposed so many times before? How likely is an ineffectual city council going to be able to push this through against likely opposition.

This has not been proposed before by the city council or the NTA or any such official body -- a draft of this report was leaked and reported last year.

nowecant

The biggest single change will be the bus gates on (or close to) Bachelors Walk and Georges Quay.

I also note that in many cases they are banning taxis from using certain routes, so it will be just bus/luas/bike/pedestrian I can imagine that will cause uproar!

From the quick look I have had at the report my only issue is that it seems to be a bit more focused on the south side and docklands. I understand that this is the core but the North side does seem to come out second best

seamus

qweerty wrote: »

Hasn't this been proposed so many times before? How likely is an ineffectual city council going to be able to push this through against likely opposition.

It's been proposed by many interest groups and architectural/civil engineering groups.

It's the first time it's been seriously proposed by the local council and NTA.

Chances are the proposal is a bit of an overreach, which they expect to get scaled back when car park owners and the ilk of Mattie McGrath start having conniptions about it.

I can see George's Quay causing a lot of consternation here, people really use it very heavily for getting onto the N4. I don't think the closure of college green will be that big a deal for the taxi drivers. In the end it just means they'll have to take slightly longer routes around. Ching ching.

monument

I have not read the full report yet but it seems that the draft more clearly outlined new inner orbtal routes, while the full report does not and includes more details.

The new report seems to make even the Liffey Cycle Route look non-radical. But it also makes that plan even more attractive / workable for buses.

hmmm

Good job banning the taxis - there are so many in the city centre now that they are glueing up many of the bus lanes.

Aard

^I'm sensing another Red Light Camera or two will be gracing Dublin's streets

Carawaystick

nowecant wrote: »

24 hour bus gate on college green

How about a 24 hour bus service first?

Aard

When the 24hr bus/luas/bike street is implemented, a lot of space will have been given over to a much enlarged footpath/square and of course the Luas tracks. There will be a bike lane for the first time. There won't be much room left over for anything other than buses. Anyway at those off-peak hours, there's very little reason to be using College Green to drive through the city centre since there's so little traffic elsewhere.

sdanseo

Spent the evening typing up a submission on the proposed changes reported in the journal. Have a degree in the transport area so I can add some letters and maybe they'll read it.

TLDR -

Reverse traffic on SSG West, allow taxis and buses turn left from Cuffe Street, travel the length and join Dawson Street sharing the Luas surface. This replaces the lost rank at SSG North and the informal rank at Suffolk Street/Grafton Street

Provide proper BRT-style bus shelters, seating and other infrastructure on Westmoreland Street (in the same vein as shown in their mock up of D'Olier Street)

Provide more paving on the Ulster Bank / Books Upstairs side of College Green and sacrifice some on the northern side

Share poles for traffic signals - there's a huge number of them in that mock-up.

Wide-as-possible footpaths all round



Oh, and the Gardaí will actually have to foot patrol so that the junkies don't take up residence. I't a disgrace the way the city is at the minute, they treat O'Connell Street and the redeveloped areas up there like their doorstep.

I've also yet to read the full report but by what monument says my 2-page submission may look like a tribunal report by the time I'm done.

trellheim

this is typical stupidology.


The correct thing to do here is to provide the correct public transport links - like MN and DU BEFORE these things are done.
just running a single tram line to Broombridge is not the same thing

LXFlyer

trellheim wrote: »

this is typical stupidology.


The correct thing to do here is to provide the correct public transport links - like MN and DU BEFORE these things are done.
just running a single tram line to Broombridge is not the same thing

While DART Underground may happen it's still going to be a long time away.

So in the meantime do we just let the bus service, which is, and will remain for some considerable time to come, the backbone of our public transport system, get slower and slower in the city centre.

People keep complaining that our city's bus service is unreliable, and the city centre is a major source of the delays to it.

Something has to give, and the arrival of LUAS BXD means that whatever happens the status quo cannot continue.

dubhthach

I imagine of course part of the longer term thinking with removing traffic from College green is that it would also free up road space if they were ever revised the proposed "LUAS to Lucan" which if memory serves me right was to have ran down Dame Street/College Green.

LXFlyer

I don't see that line ever happening.

It doesn't offer any speed improvement over the 25a/25b bus to/from South Lucan and frankly would cause more congestion than it would solve.

crushproof

This has crossed my mind alot in the past. To make College Green pedistrianised, would it be possible to build a bus tunnell from Dame Street, with entry/exits at Westmoreland and D'Olier Streets?
Could even fit in an underground bus interchange. I know in Brisbane (obviously not the same situation as it is a new city), almost the entire bus service in the city centre is underground, with tunnels and interchanges at couple of points around the centre.
And of course the height of Double deckers may be an issue....but it would be good to see.

Then again, as long as they get rid of those dam trees I've been happy.

Aard

Underground services. Also I don't really see any problem with buses ag grade through College Green.

qweerty

It's probably not in the remit of the transport study, but I feel Dublin is peculiarly unembracing of the river that runs through it, and the study proposes few solutions. Narrow and uneven footpaths run beside it with tall and unattractive buildings on either side. The Northern and Southern cores really only open up at O'Connell and Capel bridges. Bachelors Walk offers the only engagement with the Liffey.

Delighted by the idea of pedestrianising the northern corner of Stephen's Green. Likewise, the proposed changes to Westmoreland Street: as well as the attractiveness of the buildings being underrated (incidentally, while I wouldn't advocate their removal, the trees that line it are partly responsible), it is the principal pedestrian route from one side of the City to the other and the narrow footpaths at present mean it is poorly equipped to perform that role.

Seems odd that the central pivot point of the City - the point where the North-South-West axis meets - is a commercial bank.

Conscious that the footpaths could hardly be widened, removal of on-street parking and bike parking facilities from South William Street would be welcome.

Without considering the consequences, I would instinctively encourage pedestrianising Wicklow and Exchequer streets, and certainly Dame Lane.

There remains an issue with a lack of a central pedestrian halting area. Stephen's Green partly performs that role but is too detached. Depending on what Central Bank is converted to, its forecourt could be redesigned to provide it.

Given that the study was investigating transport links, it's perhaps understandable that no attention was paid to the changing nature of cities in general. But I feel an integrated study with a wider focus may have been desirable.

sdanseo

qweerty wrote: »

It's probably not in the remit of the transport study, but I feel Dublin is peculiarly unembracing of the river that runs through it, and the study proposes few solutions. Narrow and uneven footpaths run beside it with tall and unattractive buildings on either side. The Northern and Southern cores really only open up at O'Connell and Capel bridges. Bachelors Walk offers the only engagement with the Liffey.

Delighted by the idea of pedestrianising the northern corner of Stephen's Green. Likewise, the proposed changes to Westmoreland Street: as well as the attractiveness of the buildings being underrated (incidentally, while I wouldn't advocate their removal, the trees that line it are partly responsible), it is the principal pedestrian route from one side of the City to the other and the narrow footpaths at present mean it is poorly equipped to perform that role.

Seems odd that the central pivot point of the City - the point where the North-South-West axis meets - is a commercial bank.

Conscious that the footpaths could hardly be widened, removal of on-street parking and bike parking facilities from South William Street would be welcome.

Without considering the consequences, I would instinctively encourage pedestrianising Wicklow and Exchequer streets, and certainly Dame Lane.

There remains an issue with a lack of a central pedestrian halting area. Stephen's Green partly performs that role but is too detached. Depending on what Central Bank is converted to, its forecourt could be redesigned to provide it.

Given that the study was investigating transport links, it's perhaps understandable that no attention was paid to the changing nature of cities in general. But I feel an integrated study with a wider focus may have been desirable.

Westomoreland and D'Olier Streets are thankfully unique in that they have ample capacity in terms of width to be narrowed to two vehicular lanes each way and the rest converted to O'Connell-Street style paving and, hopefully, added bus infrastructure.

The rest of the area isn't as lucky. South William Street and Exchequer Street should both ideally be pedestrianised, but they provide one of only perhaps three access routes to a number of car parks and also provide for taxis to pick-up and drop-off. If this can no longer happen, taxis will clog other streets (look at Camden Street on a busy Saturday, a regular motorist would be foolish not to take another route).

I think in order to make a civic plaza we needed a plan to remove all vehicles from College Green - but thanks to the location of Trinity College this was never really going to be possible. There just aren't enough alternative routes for public transport to take.

qweerty

sdanseo wrote: »

Westomoreland and D'Olier Streets are thankfully unique in that they have ample capacity in terms of width to be narrowed to two vehicular lanes each way and the rest converted to O'Connell-Street style paving and, hopefully, added bus infrastructure.

The rest of the area isn't as lucky. South William Street and Exchequer Street should both ideally be pedestrianised, but they provide one of only perhaps three access routes to a number of car parks and also provide for taxis to pick-up and drop-off. If this can no longer happen, taxis will clog other streets (look at Camden Street on a busy Saturday, a regular motorist would be foolish not to take another route).

Interesting point.

I actually think a Dublin centre devoid of cars would counter intuitively detract in some way, so not overly dismayed.

I think in order to make a civic plaza we needed a plan to remove all vehicles from College Green - but thanks to the location of Trinity College this was never really going to be possible. There just aren't enough alternative routes for public transport to take.

I, ofc, forgot to mention the role Trinity College plays in that regard. Aware, as you say, of the difficulty of creating space for a central plaza (that's the word I was searching for!), a combination of TCD, Dubh Linn Gardens, Stephen's Green, Merrion Square, Temple Bar, Parnell Square (post-development) and the Central Bank forecourt would seem capable to me of providing the need for, to coin a term, pedestrian set-down zones. (Distinct lack on the North Side, tho.) While sorely lacking for public events like the SSM marriage result, I actually think a large central plaza might be unattractive in frequently wet and dreary Dublin.

monument

qweerty wrote: »

Interesting point.

I actually think a Dublin centre devoid of cars would counter intuitively detract in some way, so not overly dismayed.

Why exactly?

Btw it would be devoid of cars, only very limited areas will be devoid of cars.

qweerty wrote: »

.. I actually think a large central plaza might be unattractive in frequently wet and dreary Dublin.

Amsterdam and Copenhagen have similar rain fall as Dublin -- indeed, Copenhagen also gets harsh, colder winters.

Copenhagen had similar weather-related excuses from retailers and other who opposed their now more extensive network of pedestrian-only streets.

lxflyer wrote: »

I don't see that line ever happening.

It doesn't offer any speed improvement over the 25a/25b bus to/from South Lucan and frankly would cause more congestion than it would solve.

I agree re the route and I don't think the route is optimal. But in fairness, to/from South Lucan would be a small percent of overall number of passangers

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

I agree re the route and I don't think the route is optimal. But in fairness, to/from South Lucan would be a small percent of overall number of passangers

I think that South Lucan would be a major part of their business case, but being honest about it, I think this route would a complete waste of money. The areas served by it alone can be served far better by the bus network. South Lucan and Liffey Valley all have an excellent bus service via the N4. I'm not convinced that this would improve the lot of Ballyfermot commuters either, and the James' Street and Thomas Street corridor has a very good bus service as it is.

The route would be far too slow and the extended on-street running just too much on that corridor.

In this case it is far better to focus on improving the bus services where possible, and developing P & R on the rail line as that service increases, and getting DART Underground up and running.

LXFlyer

qweerty wrote: »

Conscious that the footpaths could hardly be widened, removal of on-street parking and bike parking facilities from South William Street would be welcome.

Without considering the consequences, I would instinctively encourage pedestrianising Wicklow and Exchequer streets, and certainly Dame Lane.

There remains an issue with a lack of a central pedestrian halting area. Stephen's Green partly performs that role but is too detached. Depending on what Central Bank is converted to, its forecourt could be redesigned to provide it.

sdanseo wrote: »

Westomoreland and D'Olier Streets are thankfully unique in that they have ample capacity in terms of width to be narrowed to two vehicular lanes each way and the rest converted to O'Connell-Street style paving and, hopefully, added bus infrastructure.

The rest of the area isn't as lucky. South William Street and Exchequer Street should both ideally be pedestrianised, but they provide one of only perhaps three access routes to a number of car parks and also provide for taxis to pick-up and drop-off. If this can no longer happen, taxis will clog other streets (look at Camden Street on a busy Saturday, a regular motorist would be foolish not to take another route).

I think in order to make a civic plaza we needed a plan to remove all vehicles from College Green - but thanks to the location of Trinity College this was never really going to be possible. There just aren't enough alternative routes for public transport to take.

Neither Exchequer Street nor Wickow Street really can be pedestrianised as they provide necessary access routes to a major car park. And I don't see that changing.

However I'm convinced that South William Street can be pedestrianised from the car park exit to Chatham Row. It would require a bit of rejigging of traffic flows, but I'm sure if there was a will to do it that it could be done.

College Green can not be fully pedestrianised - it would be disastrous from the perspective of public transport access to the city centre. Buses are and will remain the dominant form of public transport access to the city centre and as such it is imperative that they can get to the points that people want to go to. I think that the proposal as stands is probably the best compromise.

strassenwo!f

lxflyer wrote: »

I don't see that line ever happening.

I hope you're right, and that sense will prevail in the end.

If all the current plans from Government departments/agencies are to be realised, we would have the (i) DART Underground between Heuston and Pearse via St. Stephen's Green (which I, personally, hope will be rerouted to straighten it out and serve more people, rather than build a circuitous route and have a station beside a 22-acre park with no commuters, as is the current plan in St. Stephen's Green), (ii) the Lucan Luas, and (iii) the existing red LUAS.

This would result in Dublin, along the St. Stephen's Green to O'Connell Street axis having 3(three) East-West rail lines within just a kilometre of each other. An absurd situation.

But that is the current plan.

qweerty

monument wrote: »

Why exactly

Without slow-moving cars on the likes of South William Street, I feel a certain energy would be taken away from the city. But don't focus on that point, please.

Amsterdam and Copenhagen have similar rain fall as Dublin -- indeed, Copenhagen also gets harsh, colder winters.

Copenhagen had similar weather-related excuses from retailers and other who opposed their now more extensive network of pedestrian-only streets.

Lived in London for a while and felt Trafalgar Square, when it was empty during off-season or wet days, was a boring expanse. Were one to be created in Dublin, it would dominate the city. But I'm not particularly wedded to that opinion either.

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

Neither Exchequer Street nor Wickow Street really can be pedestrianised as they provide necessary access routes to a major car park. And I don't see that changing.

Well the full report actually mentions closing some car parks or turning them into dedicated bike parking and relocating them to new car parks further outside the core city center.

They don't specify which car parks, but I expect it could well be these ones.

While I'm aware some of these are private car parks, their owners might be open swapping them for a larger modern car park a little further out on government owned land.

Really they are in a terrible location and need to be moved.

qweerty wrote: »

Without slow-moving cars on the likes of South William Street, I feel a certain energy would be taken away from the city. But don't focus on that point, please.

LOL!! No way. I have a friend who owned a jewellery shop on South William Street. DCC as part of a trial turned the street into a pedestrian street for a day or two and it was a massive success. My friends shop did 5 times more business that day then usual!

But also the street was far nicer and more fun on that day. All the bars and restaurants put tables further out onto the street and their was a real exciting buzz on the street. Very continental European vibe.

The cars on that street are a complete disaster and the sooner they are gone the better.