Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

qweerty

bk wrote: »

LOL!! No way. I have a friend who owned a jewellery shop on South William Street. DCC as part of a trial turned the street into a pedestrian street for a day or two and it was a massive success. My friends shop did 5 times more business that day then usual!

But also the street was far nicer and more fun on that day. All the bars and restaurants put tables further out onto the street and their was a real exciting buzz on the street. Very continental European vibe.

The cars on that street are a complete disaster and the sooner they are gone the better.

Like I said, I don't really want to represent this side of the argument. But your example takes the street in isolation and on, what I presume is, a pleasant day. Taking it to an extreme (I'm aware of what monument emphasised above about only a small area being pedestrianised) if the whole of Dublin were pedestrianised, places that don't get much footfall would feel desolate at times. With your example, if surrounding streets such as Dame Street were pedestrianised as well, SW Street would receive less footfall. And, during off season, poor weather and lack of people would mean it could be quite empty. In theory, it could be pedestrianised seasonally, I guess.

But...I can absolutely see the other side too. So please, if you intend to respond, do so in the abstract rather than to dispute my claims specifically!

Aard

bk wrote: »

They don't specify which car parks [...] I'm aware some of these are private car parks

While ordinarily I would be reticent about CPO's and Part 8's etc, I think that if the council were to purchase some of these car parks (in particular the AA carpark) it would be a good use of local authority power.

Aard

qweerty wrote: »

Taking it to an extreme (I'm aware of what monument emphasised above about only a small area being pedestrianised) if the whole of Dublin were pedestrianised, places that don't get much footfall would feel desolate at times.

Nobody is interested in pedestrianising large expanses of the CBD/retail core, not least the council. There is an understanding for the need for delivery vehicle and bike access.

Anyway with several large institutions (Brown Thomas, Westbury and the likes) in the area that rely on vehicular access, it isn't feasible to fully pedestrianise yet even if full pedestrianisation was a goal.

qweerty

Aard wrote: »

Nobody is interested in pedestrianising large expanses of the CBD/retail core, not least the council. There is an understanding for the need for delivery vehicle and bike access.

Anyway with several large institutions (Brown Thomas, Westbury and the likes) in the area that rely on vehicular access, it isn't feasible to fully pedestrianise yet even if full pedestrianisation was a goal.

Like I implied, the example of total pedestrianisation was to prove a point, which is that: the more you pedestrianise, the thinner the footfall will be.

D.L.R.

Irish planners want to have their cake and eat it. They want to pedestrianise central Dublin, but don't want to pay for underground rail.

Build capacity underground in order to free up capacity overground. It ain't rocket science.

Aard

qweerty wrote: »

Like I implied, the example of total pedestrianisation was to prove a point, which is that: the more you pedestrianise, the thinner the footfall will be.

I don't think that is proven at all.

monument

D.L.R. wrote: »

Irish planners want to have their cake and eat it. They want to pedestrianise central Dublin, but don't want to pay for underground rail.

Build capacity underground in order to free up capacity overground. It ain't rocket science.

Copahagain did nearly the exact same thing -- their extensive pedestrianize came before building underground metro lines.

Nearly sure Amsterdam did the same in regards to restricting car use before building the supporting metro lines too, but would have to check that out.

The plans in Dublin support LRT, buses, cycling and walking.

cgcsb

qweerty wrote: »

Like I implied, the example of total pedestrianisation was to prove a point, which is that: the more you pedestrianise, the thinner the footfall will be.

That's just silly. Currently we have to walk sidewards down south william street on any given day. Same on Westmoreland St/College green and the Dame st/George's st cross. Nobody is proposing total pedestrianisation.

Carawaystick

cgcsb wrote: »

That's just silly. Currently we have to walk sidewards down south william street on any given day. Same on Westmoreland St/College green and the Dame st/George's st cross. Nobody is proposing total pedestrianisation.

Sher Grafton st isn't fully pedestrianised, I used to have to dodge trucks and vans walking up it every morning on the way to work.

AlanG

It will be interesting what impact the closing of Clearys will have on the thinking of DCC. While a pedestrian city is great for tourists and some workers it is a disaster for many larger shops who target families. Not too many people with kids will come into town for shopping if they cant drive as you are limited to one or two bags on public transport. The city will become even more of a theme park and coffee destination.

Carawaystick

AlanG wrote: »

It will be interesting what impact the closing of Clearys will have on the thinking of DCC. While a pedestrian city is great for tourists and some workers it is a disaster for many larger shops who target families. Not too many people with kids will come into town for shopping if they cant drive as you are limited to one or two bags on public transport. The city will become even more of a theme park and coffee destination.

Cleary's had a car park though.
http://www.q-park.ie/parking-with-q-park/our-parking-facilities/parkingid/1531

Aard

AlanG wrote: »

It will be interesting what impact the closing of Clearys will have on the thinking of DCC. While a pedestrian city is great for tourists and some workers it is a disaster for many larger shops who target families. Not too many people with kids will come into town for shopping if they cant drive as you are limited to one or two bags on public transport. The city will become even more of a theme park and coffee destination.

Cleary's didn't die because of a lack of car access. It dies becaue the retail heart of Dublin continues to shift south and east. Henry St has also become wildly popular, and at one point over the past few years it was the most profitable street in the country. O'Connell St also has issues wrt to landuse types permitted. Very little in the way of evening entertainment, restaurants, bars etc. In many ways the only way OCS survives is because of its thoroughfare status. It certainly is not a "destination" street, like Grafton and Henry Sts are.

AngryLips

The Clerys business didn't suffer because of pedestrianisation. It died because it didn't keep up with the times. Arnotts is a similar business in the same area that is also pedestrianised and it is doing perfectly fine.

sdanseo

Aard wrote: »

Cleary's didn't die because of a lack of car access. It dies becaue the retail heart of Dublin continues to shift south and east. Henry St has also become wildly popular, and at one point over the past few years it was the most profitable street in the country. O'Connell St also has issues wrt to landuse types permitted. Very little in the way of evening entertainment, restaurants, bars etc. In many ways the only way OCS survives is because of its thoroughfare status. It certainly is not a "destination" street, like Grafton and Henry Sts are.

AngryLips wrote: »

The Clerys business didn't suffer because of pedestrianisation. It died because it didn't keep up with the times. Arnotts is a similar business in the same area that is also pedestrianised and it is doing perfectly fine.

Clery's died as pointed out above you.

O'Connell Street is no longer a shopping street, and in fact the general quality of shops on it is pretty poor. In any other European Capital there'd be a hive of resteraunts on it but you'll find most of those will want outdoor seating and that's a relatively rare thing here because of the weather.

Unfortunately another main problem is that O'Connell Street is also riddled with open drug dealing because our justice system tends to effectively justify it by refusing to punish those using drugs in public.

monument

sdanseo wrote: »

Clery's died as pointed out above you.

But the problem is that it did not die for the reasons you claim. One of the reasons business commentators on the radio claimed was the reason for the downfall was the retail's obsession with buying property in the boom before the bust (including buying a near-by car park!).

sdanseo wrote: »

O'Connell Street is no longer a shopping street, and in fact the general quality of shops on it is pretty poor.

Besides a the key locations like Clery's, was it ever really that much of a "shopping street"? Was it not always a mixed use street? Ie shops, restaurants, hotels, etc.

A large chunk of O'Connell Street's current problems are boom related (ie a large site being left unused, Clery's overextending themselves etc).

sdanseo wrote: »

In any other European Capital there'd be a hive of resteraunts on it but you'll find most of those will want outdoor seating and that's a relatively rare thing here because of the weather.

I posted this on this or another thread recently: Amsterdam and Copenhagen, which have more pedestrian areas with far more seating, have similar rainfall as Dublin. Copenhagen has far harsher winters.

Weather is an excuse, it was used in Copenhagen before they created an extensive network of pedestrian and low-traffic streets:

‘We are not Italians, we are Danes. It will never work here,’ ‘Shops will die off if there are no more cars,’ and ‘The climate over here is not suitable for mingling in the streets.’

http://www.pedestrians-int.org/content/33/42006-nt.pdf

loyatemu

monument wrote: »

I posted this on this or another thread recently: Amsterdam and Copenhagen, which have more pedestrian areas with far more seating, have similar rainfall as Dublin. Copenhagen has far harsher winters.

there's outdoor seating in other parts of Dublin - particularly around the Grafton St area. O'Connell Street would be perfect for it, with the wide footpaths.

I think the street itself looks better now than it has done for years (don't forget in the 70s the central median was a carpark) but the mix of businesses is pretty poor.

nowecant

Its not full pedestrianisation but its a start

Councillors to assess redesign of Dublin’s College Green


Plans for the redesign of Dublin’s College Green, including a permanent ban on private cars and a new pedestrian plaza in front of the Bank of Ireland, will be presented to Dublin city councillors later.

The changes are being introduced primarily to accommodate the Luas Cross City line, which is currently under construction and will run through College Green from 2017, but the council also said it wants to improve facilities for walking, cycling and public transport.

“Restricted access for general traffic to College Green is necessary to provide for high quality public transport, pedestrian and cyclist movements,” according to the planning document.

Map: college green

An artist’s impression of the proposed changes to the College Green area. Photograph: Dublin City CouncilCollege Green road changes need to be ‘urgently addressed’


Under the plan the traffic islands will be removed and the roadway will be realigned so what is currently the westbound side of Dame Street - the lane running from College Green Down towards Christchurch - will have one lane running in each direction.The other side of the road, in front of the 18th century Bank of Ireland building, will be pedestrianised to form a new public plaza curving around the front of the bank and into Foster Place.

Cars are currently stopped from driving through College Green from 7am to 7pm, to accommodate the Luas work. The new road layout will make this ban full-time and permanent. Cars travelling east on Dame Street will be diverted at an earlier stage than the current “bus gate”, by being forced to turn right into Church Lane, the small street by the side of Ulster Bank.

To facilitate this, traffic flow will be reversed on Church Lane, St Andrew’s Street and Trinity Street, so that motorists can either loop back onto Dame Street and travel west or access car parks such as the Brown Thomas or Dame Lane car parks.

Motorists who want to access Temple Bar and the North Quays will be able to turn off Dame Street onto Anglesea Street. Taxi ranks will be provided between Anglesea Street and Foster Place and westbound between Trinity Street and Dame Court. Loading will be facilitated by means of time plated sections of the taxi ranks on Dame Street.

The Henry Grattan and Thomas Davis monuments on College Green will be relocated to facilitate the street layout improvements and their relocation has yet ti be determined.

Councillors will on Monday afternoon be asked to approve the publication of the plans for consultation and submissions by the public. However the provision for cyclists may be a sticking point.

Cyclists travelling east on Dame Street into College Green will have a dedicated cycle, lane, although this would be interrupted by bus stops and taxi ranks.

However cyclists heading west will have to share the lane will buses, particularly at a narrow point where the bus lane crosses the Luas tracks turning from College Green onto Dame Street.

Councillors could decide to postpone the publication and consultation process, to seek a redesign. The council wants to start construction work on the scheme in the third quarter of next year.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/councillors-to-assess-redesign-of-dublin-s-college-green-1.2422828

MrMorooka

MrMorooka

With the changes to Church lane, does that basically confirm that the northbound bus alignment around the back of Trinity will be permanent too?

cgcsb

I presume buses will mostly go up through grafton st and college green.

LXFlyer

MrMorooka wrote: »

With the changes to Church lane, does that basically confirm that the northbound bus alignment around the back of Trinity will be permanent too?

Not necessarily.

Some routes may share the space with LUAS via Nassau St and Grafton St.

I suspect that the Rathmines route diversion via Georges Street will be permanent.

Carawaystick

I wonder will there be a citycentre fare for the luas, so it'll be free to connect via tram from say Harcourt st to Parnell st;
Reducing the demand on cross city routes

cgcsb

Carawaystick wrote: »

I wonder will there be a citycentre fare for the luas, so it'll be free to connect via tram from say Harcourt st to Parnell st;
Reducing the demand on cross city routes

I'd imagine changes between lines will be free given it's a zonal system. If they start charging for changing lines I'm emigrating to a less brain dead state.

MrMorooka

cgcsb wrote: »

I presume buses will mostly go up through grafton st and college green.

lxflyer wrote: »

Not necessarily.

Some routes may share the space with LUAS via Nassau St and Grafton St.

I suspect that the Rathmines route diversion via Georges Street will be permanent.

So shared running then? Interesting, will only work if there are no bus stops on the section of course.

LXFlyer

Carawaystick wrote: »

I wonder will there be a citycentre fare for the luas, so it'll be free to connect via tram from say Harcourt st to Parnell st;
Reducing the demand on cross city routes

I very much doubt it - that journey will be in the Central 1 zone.

As such a single zone fare will apply.

cgcsb wrote: »

I'd imagine changes between lines will be free given it's a zonal system. If they start charging for changing lines I'm emigrating to a less brain dead state.

The trip that the other poster was suggesting is on the same line - the green line - no change required.

There will be a single fare zone across the city centre, as there is already. Travelling from Harcourt to Heuston is only one zone, for example.

I would expect that it will cover from Charlemont to Broadstone-DIT (or possibly Grangegorman) on the Green Line and from Heuston to Georges Dock/Connolly on the Red Line, and that there would be a further zone covering the remaining stops on the Green Line to Broombridge.

LXFlyer

MrMorooka wrote: »

So shared running then? Interesting, will only work if there are no bus stops on the section of course.

I wouldn't expect there to be any bus stops between Dawson Street and Westmoreland Street.

Southbound there are no bus stops between D'Olier Street and Nassau Street and I don't think that will change.

cgcsb

MrMorooka wrote: »

So shared running then? Interesting, will only work if there are no bus stops on the section of course.

Yes There'll be bus stops between Dawson St and Westmoreland St or between D'Olier St and Nassau st(East of Dawson st.)

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

Yes There'll be bus stops between Dawson St and Westmoreland St or between D'Olier St and Nassau st(west of Dawson st.

Why do you say that?

If the buses revert northbound via Nassau Street and Grafton Street, I very much doubt that there will be a stop between Dawson Street and Westmoreland Street - it just could not work otherwise.

Similarly there would not be a stop between D'Olier Street and Nassau Street (east of Dawson Street) southbound.

You couldn't have a situation where buses were stopped along the road blocking trams. It is not going to happen.

Pete_Cavan

MrMorooka wrote: »

I dont like the idea of reversing the flow of traffic on Church Lane. Trinity Street is far enough for general traffic to go, allowing people down as far as Church Lane undermines the plaza idea. Church Lane really should be pedestrianised along with Suffolk Street with a mini plaza at the junction where Molly Malone currently is. Although this may not be possible due to the need to allow traffic away from car parks in the area, perhaps having traffic go both directions on Exchequer Street would help? They really need to take ideas, if not the entire proposal, from Dublin2Walk from a few years ago;

Carawaystick

lxflyer wrote: »

I very much doubt it - that journey will be in the Central 1 zone.

As such a single zone fare will apply.

DB have 2 fare structures in the city centre, stages and CC fare.
If I arrive at Parnell square on a 40, its free to get a bus to Nassau st.
It'll be 80 cents to get a tram across. Seems a missed opportunity to reduce busses through OCS