Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Pedestrianise College Green for 2016
Options
Comments
-
Overall, it's a bold statement, a huge leap for the city and I'm delighted. Nonetheless, the bus system needs to be radically sorted out beforehand. Too many diversions planned that may - and will - impact thousands of commuters. Off topic - I'm not an engineer but IMO a simple two lane cut and cover tunnel for buses from Dame Street to Westmoreland / College Street should have been built years ago.
What's the deal with both the Bank of Ireland and Trinity college railings? Could they be knocked back...adding even more space? Especially at Trinity, as I imagine it's going to be a tight squeeze for pedestrians between LUAS trams and the railings. I'm sure the Trinners will kick up an almighty fuss, but if you look at satellite images there's a substantial amount of space to be utilised.
Also, I hope Suffolk Street remains pedestrianised - back in Dublin last year I was amazed at the transformation from a choked, clogged street to an open, pleasurable street.0 -
Agree regarding Suffolk st, it's a pleasure to walk now. And I think molly Malone is better where she is. So tourists can stop and take pictures without a stampede of shoppers trying to kill them on Grafton st. Any chance we could reduce the amount of poles and esb boxes around the place also. The BOI is a real waste imo. Something like a very upmarket department store might be a nice use.0
-
Agree regarding Suffolk st, it's a pleasure to walk now. And I think molly Malone is better where she is. So tourists can stop and take pictures without a stampede of shoppers trying to kill them on Grafton st. Any chance we could reduce the amount of poles and esb boxes around the place also. The BOI is a real waste imo. Something like a very upmarket department store might be a nice use.
It should be referred to as the Irish parliament building as that was what it was built for. Not the BOI. Not having a go, that's just always a pet peeve of mine.
The plaza seems like a great idea to me, would be great for Dublin. The gap between the cycle lanes is a bit silly. Cyclists won't dismount unfortunately.0 -
I hope at a minimum the railings and wall outside the BOI are removed, it really would open it up.
As for buses using the plaza I'm in two minds. In one instance I can see the vision of having a wide open plaza for pedestrians and cyclists with little visual interference. Thats what a plaza is in my mind and if you go to any European city that has one buses and taxis are not using it as a primary corridor to go north to south. They tend to be routed elsewhere. I think thats a good thing, my reasoning omes from sitting on public plazas in Italy, Austria, etc and it is a remarkably relaxing experience to be able to sit down on a bench in a city centre and just watch life go by without having heavy traffic come within a few metres of you.
But on the other hand that College Green corridor does seem to be vastly important in terms of bus commuters. I wonder though perhaps it has been made too important unnecessarily? I can't really say for sure as I don't know every route in the city. But for my own route the 140 at the moment it uses the College Green corridor to get to O'Connell St. But I wonder could new north-south routes be opened up rather than this seemingly over reliance on O'Connell St? What about Chancery Place, Jervis St? It would mean removing on street parking to improve flows but I don't see why it couldn't be looked at.0 -
Your figures are wrong
Nope, got them from official figures - you have some alternative source? :rolleyes:plazas are not for transport really and not there's more to cities than transport. Cities are for living and enjoying, not just getting getting from a to b.
Unless you live on the "plaza" you gotta get there from "b" !Arguing over how many people Luas carries city wide is also next to irrelevant now as the tracks are going in and that's not going to be changed, never mind issues such as Luas carrying more people per KM
Well, you are still whining about the M50! But there is hardly anything more relevant in this thread than the impact the pedestrianisation will have on public transport.This kind of rhetoric is played out all over the world -- Dublin with Grafton Street, Copenhagen with their far wider pedestrian area, and New York's new Times Square plaza is probably a prime example where people claimed bus times were going to be negatively affected and Bloomberg proved them wrong.
As I've explained to you so many times - all the places you refer to had massive metro systems before they started closing crucial PT links in the city centre.0 -
Advertisement
-
-
It's robbing Peter to pay Paul to be honest.
The routes currently diverted via Westland Row and Pearse Street will have a faster better routing (well those that revert to the Nassau Streeet/Grafton Street route).
However, the routes currently that come down George's Street and Dame Street will have a longer routing with doubling back on themselves at least once in either direction and possibly twice and at least one (the 83) will likely not serve the city centre any closer than the western end of Dame Street.
How buses will route to/from O'Connell Street will be interesting.
Nor do I expect all of the routes to be able to revert to Nassau Street/Grafton Street - they simply will not fit.
It is a bit of robbing Peter to pay Paul, but is forced robbery -- where the robbers have very few choices and all of them leave some people or everybody worse off.
The planning of Luas Cross City should not be allowed to happen again the way it did, but something has to be done now to fix the problems and a plaza is also desirable. Btw there's some people online still calling for a total ban on buses -- I think that's daftness.
As an aside: Extra funding should be secured so new buses can be less polluting for public health reasons (as per London, etc, but only using off-the-shelf models), because it will stand against buses more and more if nobody sees that as a priority.Bear in mind that the northbound bus routes off Dame Street/College Green shouldn't have had an impact on LUAS, while the southbound buses would only have to cross the northbound line to turn right (already being outside the southbound LUAS line).
Under the last city plans the northbound buses off Dame Street/College Green shared the one and only north bound lane between TCD and the BOI / parliament building.
The southbound buses crossing the northbound line would be 'interesting' without a fully segregated sequent and more fun again adding cyclists into that mix.For the vast majority of bus users affected by this proposal neither LUAS nor DART/Rail are an option - let's not try to go off on daft tangents here. The cross-city bus service is the only real option for most public transport users in Dublin.
Err... I was not saying that the Luas or other rail options are replacements. I was replying to a post saying that without "high capacity RAIL infrastructure a suburb-city centre commute will become a near impossibility", and then I started by saying "Buses will still be going cross-city on a number of routes" before mentioning Luas and rail.
I was replying to a post which focused on rail, and I mentioned buses first and you still latched onto something I did not say about rail replacing most buses?And it's a significant half - it's going to put a lot of pressure on other streets (especially the Quays).
City centre transport study includes removing most traffic of the sections of the quays in question.strassenwo!f wrote: »I haven't had a huge amount of time yet to analyse the most recent posts, but my feeling is that the poster lxflyer is essentially right.
As a Dubliner who lives abroad, what I'm not seeing, or not hearing, or perhaps especially not feeling, on the threads on this board, is that there is very extensive contact between the City Council and the public transport providers, like Dublin Bus, Irish Rail, etc., about the major public transport issues which confront Dublin
There obviously must be some contact, for day-to-day issues.
But I'm just not getting the impression that they're meeting a lot about how to move the city's public transport forward.
I may well be very wrong on this, and I hope I am.
You mean you're not aware that the city and the NTA are in on-going talks with the transport companies re the city centre transport study?
Look at it this way: If the plaza goes in and it goes half well, that means you were right and everyone else was wrong on the level of disruption College Green could take!Schadenfreudia wrote: »Nope, got them from official figures - you have some alternative source? :rolleyes:
Official figures for what?
"Official figures" are often misquoted or misused for areas they don't apply in. Much misused statistics of those crossing the canals, for example, have little relation to what happens within the canals where, across the day, tens of thousands of extra people walk, cycle and take public transport without crossing the canal counting area. Within the canal is the most populated area by square km in Ireland and very few residents have a car and only a subsection of those drive at peak times.
Official statistics from localized Dublin City Council traffic counts show that bicycles account for closer than 30% (27%) than it is to 5% at the nearby Dame Street / Great George's Street Junction. Even on the junction of the north quays and O'Connell Street, cycling accounted for 20% of roadway traffic. That's already increasing every year and it'll increase faster when some half-decent cycle routes reach the city centre. With more and more space given over to more effective uses of transport: there's going to be less and less space for cars.
But public transport clearly carries the most people. Give that there's already a bus gate in place for half the day, on College Green and a lesser know bus gate at the top of O'Connell Street, how anybody can think general statistics apply is beyond me.Schadenfreudia wrote: »Unless you live on the "plaza" you gotta get there from "b" !
Plaza or not, the street will still be the same walking distance from many nearby car parks, a slightly further walk from some bus stops, the same walking distance from other bus stops, a minute or two from the new tram stops, just as close to DublinBikes stands as it is now, just as close to Dart and commuter rail stations, and just as close to those who live in the area.
Why are you putting plaza in quotation marks?Schadenfreudia wrote: »Well, you are still whining about the M50! But there is hardly anything more relevant in this thread than the impact the pedestrianisation will have on public transport.
I'm not sure what the M50 has to do with what you quoted me saying?
Do you accept that Luas Cross City is on its way? Or are you going to mount a campaign against the already under construction project?Schadenfreudia wrote: »As I've explained to you so many times - all the places you refer to had massive metro systems before they started closing crucial PT links in the city centre.
Err... That's clearly not true for my fist two examples:
Grafton Street in Dublin was the first example I mentioned and there was no major public transport improvements related to removing bus flows from the main section of Grafton Street.
Copenhagen's vastly larger network of pedestrian streets were largely created in the 1960s but the Copenhagen Metro only opened in the 2002, and in the 60s the city's S-Tog network was in its infancy.
Copenhagen is a city far closer to Dublin in many ways, but I mentioned New York because with the Times Square project there was drama re buses being overly affected when bus speeds were faster after the project (to the surprise of everyone).0 -
It is a bit of robbing Peter to pay Paul, but is forced robbery -- where the robbers have very few choices and all of them leave some people or everybody worse off.
The planning of Luas Cross City should not be allowed to happen again the way it did, but something has to be done now to fix the problems and a plaza is also desirable. Btw there's some people online still calling for a total ban on buses -- I think that's daftness.
As an aside: Extra funding should be secured so new buses can be less polluting for public health reasons (as per London, etc, but only using off-the-shelf models), because it will stand against buses more and more if nobody sees that as a priority.
Under the last city plans the northbound buses off Dame Street/College Green shared the one and only north bound lane between TCD and the BOI / parliament building.
The southbound buses crossing the northbound line would be 'interesting' without a fully segregated sequent and more fun again adding cyclists into that mix.
I agree with your statement on the planning process for this project - we both are on the same wavelength on that. It is a disgrace. How a project can be assessed without the impact on bus routes being fully outlined from the outset is beyond me.
I hadn't realised that one of the current four traffic lanes on College Green had been given up to cycle lanes until I saw the document late last night - that (from the bus perspective) is a problem - I had been under the impression that there would be a northbound bus lane, northbound LUAS lane, Dame Street traffic lane and shared southbound LUAS/bus lane.
If the four traffic/LUAS lanes had been retained then the buses and LUAS trams could happily co-exist.
The buses turning right into Dame Street would have been traffic signal controlled - no different to now. That really isn't an issue. It would have been the same as the LUAS crossing O'Connell Street - a controlled sequence.
This proposal means more bus routes will be diverted than the original one - that is not an improvement in my view - more people are being discommoded by Peter being robbed here.
I don't share your optimism about funding - we have an exceptionally poor record of designing proper bus priority measures and investing in the bus network.City centre transport study includes removing most traffic of the sections of the quays in question.
I am fully aware of that - but this will still be a vast number of bus routes going down the Quays. Far too many routes.0 -
-
That really isn't an issue. It would have been the same as the LUAS crossing O'Connell Street - a controlled sequence
You say that's not an issue, but I have to disagree, it's very often brought up here as one of the major failings of the Luas that it has to wait so long at O'Connell Street.0 -
Advertisement
-
Well if LUAS didn't have to wait for the light sequence to finish, it would delay far more buses that carry far more people than LUAS, and you would have serious issues with buses tailing back over O'Connell Bridge to Westmoreland Street.You say that's not an issue, but I have to disagree, it's very often brought up here as one of the major failings of the Luas that it has to wait so long at O'Connell Street.
People need to get an understanding that the bus is and will remain the main mover of people in and out of the city centre - are you suggesting that LUAS which carries fewer people should have priority over the buses?0 -
No need to be so confrontational, I'm just pointing out that it very much is an issue for a lot of people.0
-
Not meant to be confrontational - I'm just pointing out the reality that it would an issue for far more people if it were changed.No need to be so confrontational, I'm just pointing out that it very much is an issue for a lot of people.
People don't realise the impact and more importantly the cost that measures like that have on the bus service - it's as if the bus service is an afterthought.
That attitude has to stop - otherwise the bus service is just going to get slower and slower despite being the main people mover in the city.0 -
Well if LUAS didn't have to wait for the light sequence to finish, it would delay far more buses that carry far more people than LUAS, and you would have serious issues with buses tailing back over O'Connell Bridge to Westmoreland Street.
People need to get an understanding that the bus is and will remain the main mover of people in and out of the city centre - are you suggesting that LUAS which carries fewer people should have priority over the buses?
But of course sometimes the luas has to wait for only private cars to cross the junction. It's perfectly possible to have a traffic light priority for public transport, say 3 buses = one tram and change lights accordingly.0 -
Not meant to be confrontational - I'm just pointing out the reality that it would an issue for far more people if it were changed.
People don't realise the impact and more importantly the cost that measures like that have on the bus service - it's as if the bus service is an afterthought.
That attitude has to stop - otherwise the bus service is just going to get slower and slower despite being the main people mover in the city.
That attitude will continue (and not from me, I mean amongst the general public) I suspect, for a variety of reasons, but objectively you have to say that the prevailing wind is that Luas is the preferable public transport mode for most.
However, you are correct in saying that we are going to (if plans continue as currently laid out) have a bit of an ugly interim period that needs to be fixed.
I'd make these assertions:- Public opinion is firmly behind a pedestrianization of College Green
- This true to the extent that nearly all would support it regardless of the affect on private traffic.
- This is also true to the extent that a majority would support it regardless of the affect on bus transport
0 -
That attitude will continue (and not from me, I mean amongst the general public) I suspect, for a variety of reasons, but objectively you have to say that the prevailing wind is that Luas is the preferable public transport mode for most.
However, you are correct in saying that we are going to (if plans continue as currently laid out) have a bit of an ugly interim period that needs to be fixed.
I'd make these assertions:- Public opinion is firmly behind a pedestrianization of College Green
- This true to the extent that nearly all would support it regardless of the affect on private traffic.
- This is also true to the extent that a majority would support it regardless of the affect on bus transport
The problem is - for most people LUAS is not an option - while the bus is the only option, and this will remain the case. So whether it is preferable in some people's minds or not is really a moot point, there needs to be a reality check here.
I would suggest that public opinion can change when the reality of longer bus journeys and commutes is fully explained to them. That hasn't been made clear in any of the newspaper articles on this subject. Nor was it explained as part of the business case of the LUAS BXD extension or the planning process. It clearly formed no part of the cabinet decision to go ahead with the project.
I certainly do not believe that this is a fait accompli - that's putting the cart firmly in front of the horse.0 -
Will An Taisce be on whinging about the project splitting done here?
The traffic management plan for college green should have been included in the luas planning application.
And the EIS should have clearly outlined the disruption planned to bus customers.0 -
Will An Taisce be on whinging about the project splitting done here?
The traffic management plan for college green should have been included in the luas planning application.
And the EIS should have clearly outlined the disruption planned to bus customers.0 -
Join Date:Posts: 19296
Well if LUAS didn't have to wait for the light sequence to finish, it would delay far more buses that carry far more people than LUAS, and you would have serious issues with buses tailing back over O'Connell Bridge to Westmoreland Street.
People need to get an understanding that the bus is and will remain the main mover of people in and out of the city centre - are you suggesting that LUAS which carries fewer people should have priority over the buses?
I do not think that is correct. Luas must have priority as it alone crosses during its turn of the sequence, and it has to cross some time. Getting it to wait does not create extra time.
Luas crosses O'Connell St in about 30 seconds, and it has to do this anyway. If it can do it without stopping, then it will do it in less time. A bus waiting at a light is only delayed by the same 30 seconds, but it also waits at lights on the bridge, and further up at Parnell Square. If there is a problem with buses backing up to Westmoreland St, then ban the cars that make up some of the problem. Also, the buses get in each others way which adds to the problem.
I think this D'Ollier St/Westmoreland St needs some serious traffic management thinking.0 -
Sam Russell wrote: »I do not think that is correct. Luas must have priority as it alone crosses during its turn of the sequence, and it has to cross some time. Getting it to wait does not create extra time.
Luas crosses O'Connell St in about 30 seconds, and it has to do this anyway. If it can do it without stopping, then it will do it in less time. A bus waiting at a light is only delayed by the same 30 seconds, but it also waits at lights on the bridge, and further up at Parnell Square. If there is a problem with buses backing up to Westmoreland St, then ban the cars that make up some of the problem. Also, the buses get in each others way which adds to the problem.
I think this D'Ollier St/Westmoreland St needs some serious traffic management thinking.
The trams don't appear at even intervals - but the lights do change at even intervals, and also the pedestrian lights change at the same time as trams cross O'Connell Street.
Buses coming from O'Connell Bridge always get a green light at Abbey Street - the sequence is set so that will happen.0 -
Advertisement
-
Don't people walking across O'Connell St cross at the same time?Sam Russell wrote: »I do not think that is correct. Luas must have priority as it alone crosses during its turn of the sequence, and it has to cross some time. Getting it to wait does not create extra time.
Will there still be left turning vehicles onto Abbey st from O'Connell st., which will eat into time to walk across Abbey st.
Will there be a pedestrian crossing at *every* junction on O'Connell st and where Fleet st crosses the tramline, as trams have to yield to pedestrians crossing otherwise?0 -
Carawaystick wrote: »Don't people walking across O'Connell St cross at the same time?
Not legally anyway. There's nearly always a pedestrian phase directly after the Luas phase (unless there's one of those sheep moments where nobody presses the crossing button), but not at the same time0 -
Join Date:Posts: 19296
The trams don't appear at even intervals - but the lights do change at even intervals, and also the pedestrian lights change at the same time as trams cross O'Connell Street.
Buses coming from O'Connell Bridge always get a green light at Abbey Street - the sequence is set so that will happen.
Trams coming from Jervis take several minutes to get to O'Connell St and the phasing could be adjusted so they can cross without stopping. Abbey is a bit closer so less time to adjust the lights. However, buses stopping for 30 seconds will not make much difference as they get blocked beyond the GPO trying to get into their stop.
The Luas has to cross O'C St and that time has to be built into the sequence at some stage. Having a Luas stopped outside Easons for three minutes does not make any sense, when it could pass in 30 seconds.0 -
RIP Luas Line F0
-
Sam Russell wrote: »Trams coming from Jervis take several minutes to get to O'Connell St and the phasing could be adjusted so they can cross without stopping. Abbey is a bit closer so less time to adjust the lights. However, buses stopping for 30 seconds will not make much difference as they get blocked beyond the GPO trying to get into their stop.
The Luas has to cross O'C St and that time has to be built into the sequence at some stage. Having a Luas stopped outside Easons for three minutes does not make any sense, when it could pass in 30 seconds.
The very fact that they had to switch the LUAS priority off at the junction should tell you that it did cause too much disruption.0 -
-
Being honest I've never seen that line as a runner - it would be too slow compared with the 25a/25b from Lucan to the city centre, and the degree of priority it could have between the city centre and St James's Hospital was virtually nil.
The south inner city portion of that never made any sense to me really, should have been a Red Line spur initially.0 -
Luas line F never made any sense at all. A long winding tram line running more or less parallel to a direct commuter rail line. Even without the Interconnector, it would still make more sense to spend the money on providing frequent bus feed in to the Kildare route stations and on improving the priority of the Red line from Heuston to the city centre, You'd get far more for your money than Line F. With the Interconnector Line F was barking mad.0
-
Dublin Bus have been quoted in the Irish Independent this morning....
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/dublin-bus-warns-82-million-passengers-a-year-will-be-impacted-by-capitals-pedestrian-plaza-34439609.html
An extract:Dublin Bus warned of "potential knock-ons in terms of reliability" which could affect the 82 million passengers a year who travel through the city centre.
"Services through Thomas Street, George's Street and Patrick Street will be affected, and up to 100 buses an hour will need to be re-routed," one source said. "Some car traffic would have to go from the quays and there would need to be traffic management. Could this work? Yes it could. But it's reliant on less car movement and more kerbside space on Aston Quay and Bachelors Walk.
"The issue is where will buses go and will customers get the same level of service? If it doesn't work, we can't go back (to the current system)."
A map showing the impact is included in the article.0 -
Advertisement
-
Dublin Bus have been quoted in the Irish Independent this morning....
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/dublin-bus-warns-82-million-passengers-a-year-will-be-impacted-by-capitals-pedestrian-plaza-34439609.html
An extract:Dublin Bus warned of "potential knock-ons in terms of reliability" which could affect the 82 million passengers a year who travel through the city centre.
"Services through Thomas Street, George's Street and Patrick Street will be affected, and up to 100 buses an hour will need to be re-routed," one source said. "Some car traffic would have to go from the quays and there would need to be traffic management. Could this work? Yes it could. But it's reliant on less car movement and more kerbside space on Aston Quay and Bachelors Walk.
"The issue is where will buses go and will customers get the same level of service? If it doesn't work, we can't go back (to the current system)."
A map showing the impact is included in the article.
Effectively:
Southbound buses from O'Connell Street will have to turn right off O'Connell Bridge onto Aston Quay, then left onto Parliament Street and then either:
- right onto Lord Edward Street
- left onto Dame Street and right onto Georges Street
Parliament Street and Grattan Bridge (Capel Street Bridge) will become two way for buses
Northbound buses from Georges Street will have to turn left onto Dame Street, right onto Parliament Street, cross Grattan Bridge and then right onto the North Quays
Buses coming from Pearse Street heading west will have to turn onto Tara Street and left onto Burgh Quay (left turn from Westmoreland Street onto Aston Quay will be removed).0
Advertisement