Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

MJohnston

Political support starting to really weight up behind this proposal: http://irishcycle.com/2016/02/09/business-group-backs-college-green-plaza-for-dublin/

cgcsb

lxflyer wrote: »

The very fact that they had to switch the LUAS priority off at the junction should tell you that it did cause too much disruption.

The city council also quietly turned off traffic light priority for buses across the city over a decade ago to appease the car lobby. They may not have our best interests at heart you know, and indeed they may not really understand what's going on.

cgcsb

AngryLips wrote: »

RIP Luas Line F

Was never a runner, an hour from Lucan to City Centre along a winding route. It made the current Red line to Tallaght look comparatively direct.

LXFlyer

cgcsb wrote: »

The city council also quietly turned off traffic light priority for buses across the city over a decade ago to appease the car lobby. They may not have our best interests at heart you know, and indeed they may not really understand what's going on.

I think that in this specific case they did - it caused too much disruption to the traffic flow on O'Connell Street (which is principally buses).

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

Political support starting to really weight up behind this proposal: http://irishcycle.com/2016/02/09/business-group-backs-college-green-plaza-for-dublin/

With respect to that website - it does come from a specific viewpoint - that's only one side of the picture.

Political support can change when the opposing view be put - the impact on bus users.

plodder

lxflyer wrote: »

With respect to that website - it does come from a specific viewpoint - that's only one side of the picture.

Political support can change when the opposing view be put - the impact on bus users.

It's quite notable though, that city centre businesses seem to be behind it. I wouldn't have expected that. Good news imo.

MJohnston

lxflyer wrote: »

With respect to that website - it does come from a specific viewpoint - that's only one side of the picture.

Political support can change when the opposing view be put - the impact on bus users.

I hesitated linking to that website because I thought someone would say that, but it's just linking to the statements made by the business groups:

http://www.wearedublintown.ie/2016/02/proposed-college-green-plaza/
http://www.dubchamber.ie/news/press-releases/news/display-news/2016/02/08/luas-investment-paves-way-for-exciting-college-green-'plaza'-proposal

Those are heavy political hitters tbf, so I think it's still a fair assessment. Even the Dublin Bus quotes you linked to seem less concerned with stopping the plaza, than ensuring it is accompanied by additional traffic changes elsewhere.

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

With respect to that website - it does come from a specific viewpoint - that's only one side of the picture.

Political support can change when the opposing view be put - the impact on bus users.

With all due respect, if you want to bash thing please have a bases for doing so. The article linked to is fairly clear-cut and straight forward reporting for the positions of the main business groups.

It's not an opinion article, it's mainly made up of quotes from the main business groups. It's not an article covering an overview of support or objections, it's just covering the business perspective. I'm not going around bashing the article only giving the Dublin Bus view (I will also be doing an over ie article including all view but there seems to be a hell of lot of support for the plan even among drivers and bus users and people I know to be very pro bus!).

LXFlyer

MJohnston wrote: »

I hesitated linking to that website because I thought someone would say that, but it's just linking to the statements made by the business groups:

http://www.wearedublintown.ie/2016/02/proposed-college-green-plaza/
http://www.dubchamber.ie/news/press-releases/news/display-news/2016/02/08/luas-investment-paves-way-for-exciting-college-green-'plaza'-proposal

Those are heavy political hitters tbf, so I think it's still a fair assessment. Even the Dublin Bus quotes you linked to seem less concerned with stopping the plaza, than ensuring it is accompanied by additional traffic changes elsewhere.

The DB quote makes the point that they have to put the infrastructure in place to make this work, and if it doesn't we're stuck with it.


The route for buses from George's Street to either O'Connell Street or Eden Quay is not only longer, but will involve at least two additional sets of traffic lights.


Presumably given Capel Street bridge will become two way, that will mean a longer light sequence to allow northbound buses turn onto the Quays, which in turn will mean a longer red light for traffic already on the Quays.


The devil will be in the detail in terms of where traffic is going to be diverted, but I remain very much unconvinced that routes such as the 9, 16 and 122 will not take longer, and I think anyone using the 83/a won't be too happy at the fact that it will (in all likelihood) be diverted away completely from the city centre.

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

With all due respect, if you want to bash thing please have a bases for doing so. The article linked to is fairly clear-cut and straight forward reporting for the positions of the main business groups.

It's not an opinion article, it's mainly made up of quotes from the main business groups. It's not an article covering an overview of support or objections, it's just covering the business perspective. I'm not going around bashing the article only giving the Dublin Bus view (from unnamed sources -- I'll be happy to make their view clear when they do!).

I am not bashing the article - just pointing out that it is one from a site that is very clearly targeted towards cyclists and improving their lot. With due respect, while I appreciate your view on the LUAS routing, your primary concern is not the impact on buses.


I am a daily bus user and (not having my own website) will happily post my counter view here.

Sam Russell

lxflyer wrote: »

The very fact that they had to switch the LUAS priority off at the junction should tell you that it did cause too much disruption.

I think the crash between a bus and a Luas might have more to do with it than disruption. Stop everything else is safer.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/lapse-by-driver-of-luas-led-to-crash-with-bus-29102210.html

Of course if he did not have to stop, then the crash would not have occurred.

monument

For those reading the bus diversion comments and not knowing about Luas Cross City, it's worth saying:

Many of the diversions would have been needed anyway and bus priority will be greater on the quays than before because the plan is to restrict traffic levels on the quays.

Not diverting many of the buses off College Green would have resulted in massive conflict between trams, buses, and, even, even bicycle too.

plodder

Just looking at the drawings at

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/major-pedestrian-and-cycle-plaza-plan-for-dublin-s-college-green-1.2527217

I think a big open space doesn't do it justice really, and I hope they are considering something a bit more ambitious design-wise.

plodder

Just looking at the drawings at

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/major-pedestrian-and-cycle-plaza-plan-for-dublin-s-college-green-1.2527217

I think a big open space doesn't do it justice really, and I hope they are considering something a bit more ambitious design-wise.

monument

lxflyer wrote: »

I am not bashing the article - just pointing out that it is one from a site that is very clearly targeted towards cyclists and improving their lot. With due respect, while I appreciate your view on the LUAS routing, your primary concern is not the impact on buses.


I am a daily bus user and (not having my own website) will happily post my counter view here.

Nobody asking you not to post a counter view but you attacked the intergery of a news article. It was not a comment arrive saying 'cycling rules' etc, it was a straightforward news article outlining the position of the business groups.

Edit: I respect you as a poster but you're getting very personal on this. I'm very pro-public transport as well as cycling. I've defended the inclusion of buses along Luas tracks even-thought I would hardly ever use these buses -- I see the greater good in things beyond my own use or preferred mode of transport.

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

Nobody asking you not to post a counter view but you attacked the intergery of a news article. It was not a comment arrive saying 'cycling rules' etc, it was a straightforward news article outlining the position of the business groups.

I didn't - I just pointed out that it is a link to a website aimed at cyclists.

It's worth pointing that out.

MJohnston

lxflyer wrote: »

I didn't - I just pointed out that it is a link to a website aimed at cyclists.

It's worth pointing that out.

Why? It doesn't change the fact that DublinTown and Dublin Chamber of Commerce have both put out statements in support of this plan.

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

Edit: I respect you as a poster but you're getting very personal on this. I'm very pro-public transport as well as cycling. I've defended the inclusion of buses along Luas tracks even-thought I would hardly ever use these buses -- I see the greater good in things beyond my own use or preferred mode of transport.

With respect I didn't even mention you in my post. I merely commented that it should be seen as a website aimed at cyclists.

I think if you edit a pro-cycling website, you have to be able to accept that.

I'm not attacking you personally - don't take it as that, but you have to accept that bus users tend not to have the lobbying power that cyclists do, Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann tend not to be able to fight these sort of things in public as it risks annoying their paymasters, and as a result the bus user tends to be right down the bottom of the pecking order in terms of looking at the attractiveness of most proposals in Dublin city centre.

monument

MJohnston wrote: »

Why? It doesn't change the fact that DublinTown and Dublin Chamber of Commerce have both put out statements in support of this plan.

Exactly, the article in question only mentions cycling to say it's a pedestrian and cycling plaza.

lxflyer wrote: »

With respect I didn't even mention you in my post. I merely commented that it should be seen as a website aimed at cyclists.

I think if you edit a pro-cycling website, you have to be able to accept that.

I'm not attacking you personally - don't take it as that, but you have to accept that bus users tend not to have the lobbying power that cyclists do, Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann tend not to be able to fight these sort of things in public as it risks annoying their paymasters, and as a result the bus user tends to be right down the bottom of the pecking order in terms of looking at the attractiveness of most proposals in Dublin city centre.

You did not mention me personally but you did in another post focus on my background.

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

For those reading the bus diversion comments and not knowing about Luas Cross City, it's worth saying:

Many of the diversions would have been needed anyway and bus priority will be greater on the quays than before because the plan is to restrict traffic levels on the quays.

Not diverting many of the buses off College Green would have resulted in massive conflict between trams, buses, and, even, even bicycle too.

With respect no they would not.

A certain number of routes would still have been re-routed via Westland Row as there would not be the road space to share with LUAS, with some routes reverting to Grafton Street.

By no means was it ever suggested until now that routes using Dame Street would have had to be re-routed.

monument

For those really not able to walk extra, it's worth also saying that a possablly free city centre transfer is also being looked at. One of the business groups said so at the transport committee meeting this morning.

lxflyer wrote: »

With respect no they would not.

A certain number of routes would still have been re-routed via Westland Row as there would not be the road space to share with LUAS, with some routes reverting to Grafton Street.

By no means was it ever suggested until now that routes using Dame Street would have had to be re-routed.

It was never really stated where the routes would be diverted from, it seems now the fewer of the Dawson Street - Grafton Street routes will have to be diverted as there will be extra capacity with the junction at College Green removed.

MJohnston

plodder wrote: »

Just looking at the drawings at

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/major-pedestrian-and-cycle-plaza-plan-for-dublin-s-college-green-1.2527217

I think a big open space doesn't do it justice really, and I hope they are considering something a bit more ambitious design-wise.

There will be an open procurement for architects who will actually design the plaza - at the minute it's intentionally being left as a blank slate design wise because they haven't gotten that far yet.

LXFlyer

monument wrote: »

It was never really stated where the routes would be diverted from, it seems now the fewer of the Dawson Street - Grafton Street routes will have to be diverted as there will be extra capacity with the junction at College Green removed.

I actually don't think that will be the case - there really won't be room for any more than three high frequency routes (e.g. 15, 46a and 140) sharing the space along Nassau Street and Grafton Street. With a 3 minute LUAS frequency that's all that would have fitted. The removal of the left turn off Westmoreland Street means that many of the routes won't revert to the old route in any case.

As I said before the fact that the planners are taking one of the four traffic lanes that could be used by buses and LUAS on College Green to fit two cycle lanes is their decision and that is causing the northbound conflict.

Schadenfreudia

AngryLips wrote: »

RIP Luas Line F

No doubt they'll connect it underground to MN out in FI as we'd say on the weather threads :rolleyes:

But sure what would people on the West side want with PT? Can't they walk or cycle...it's only 10 miles and with our Mediterranean climate we don't need the normal European transport solutions in Dublin.....

Schadenfreudia

MJohnston wrote: »

I'd make these assertions:

• Public opinion is firmly behind a pedestrianization of College Green
• This true to the extent that nearly all would support it regardless of the affect on private traffic.
• This is also true to the extent that a majority would support it regardless of the affect on bus transport

If that's true than that is a problem; the "private cars" is not going to be contested by many - but bus services are Pubic Transport - the only form of PT for much of Dublin thanks to the failure to develop anything near an adequate Luas/Metro network.

As for a "fait acompli" - probably. But then it's odd that people here who whine about the M50 seem to regard it as "bad planning" despite the fact that a vast majority supported it.

Unlike the Plaza in a few years time when it causes commuter chaos.....we won't be digging up the M50!

Schadenfreudia

Carawaystick wrote: »

Don't people walking across O'Connell St cross at the same time?

Will there still be left turning vehicles onto Abbey st from O'Connell st., which will eat into time to walk across Abbey st.

Will there be a pedestrian crossing at *every* junction on O'Connell st and where Fleet st crosses the tramline, as trams have to yield to pedestrians crossing otherwise?

That's what we get when we decide to build lovely "plazas" and put Luas lines through a major transport artery before we invest in the normal European underground networks that allow the "environment" at street level.

Pity poor old Garret Fitzgerald isn't around to see his much-criticised predictions of Luas cross city vindicated!

Schadenfreudia

MJohnston wrote: »

Political support starting to really weight up behind this proposal: http://irishcycle.com/2016/02/09/business-group-backs-college-green-plaza-for-dublin/

That doesn't make it sensible...as we've seen in so many decisions supported by the majority down the years.

Schadenfreudia

cgcsb wrote: »

Was never a runner, an hour from Lucan to City Centre along a winding route. It made the current Red line to Tallaght look comparatively direct.

It certainly was/is if we were prepared to invest in a higher spec; more tunnels and raised sections.....like they do everywhere else.

The Red Line also happens to be very successful; main problem with F is it would join the Saggart and Tallaght lines through the city from Inchacore. That was not a smart idea.

MJohnston

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

That doesn't make it sensible...as we've seen in so many decisions supported by the majority down the years.

It makes it sensible for quite a lot of people. At least lxflyer is responding with factual arguments, you're just preying on rhetorical notions regarding government mistakes. Are you a politician? They seem to be mostly concerned with throwing blame than just getting things right in the present.

LXFlyer

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

It certainly was/is if we were prepared to invest in a higher spec; more tunnels and raised sections.....like they do everywhere else.

The Red Line also happens to be very successful; main problem with F is it would join the Saggart and Tallaght lines through the city from Inchacore. That was not a smart idea.

Line F was actually to route via James's Street, Thomas Street, Lord Edward Street and Dame Street to terminate on College Green.

The shared route was just from Kylemore Road to Fatima.

How that route from the hospital to the city could ever be seen as realistic is beyond me. Tied with the diversion from Ballyfermot to the Naas Road, it really meant that the competitiveness of the route from Lucan to the city was utterly diluted.