Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

dubhthach

From walking through College Green I definetly think that removing the trees in certain locations would cause improvements to sight lines etc. Of course the fact that College Green is choc a bloc with buses doesn't help. I can imagine the tree-huggers going mad if the trees were to get the chop though.

Irish and Proud

Pedestrianize College Green!

I take it that this means that a tunnel would be built to divert all the buses and cars under the South Bank - where else would they go otherwise - especially the buses - not much room on Westland Row or Parliament Street/South Great Georges Street - and not much in the way of good routes to get to them either - Parliament Street would be reached by Capel Street :rolleyes: and Westland Row would be reached after several turns. Oh, and there's the LUAS BxD as well - that has to go somewhere - IMO BxD is a very likely choice for the new government in the current economic climate (re - the choice between 4 rail projects - MN, DU, BxD and the Airport Spur).

I doubt that College Green would be pedestrianized anytime soon given the state the country is in - not a priority IMO.

bk

Irish and Proud wrote: »

I take it that this means that a tunnel would be built to divert all the buses and cars under the South Bank - where else would they go otherwise - especially the buses - not much room on Westland Row or Parliament Street/South Great Georges Street - and not much in the way of good routes to get to them either - Parliament Street would be reached by Capel Street :rolleyes: and Westland Row would be reached after several turns. Oh, and there's the LUAS BxD as well - that has to go somewhere - IMO BxD is a very likely choice for the new government in the current economic climate (re - the choice between 4 rail projects - MN, DU, BxD and the Airport Spur).

For Luax BXD, one of the original options, option B, completely avoids College Green and O'Connell St. :

http://www.rpa.ie/Maps/Luas%20Line%20BX/Luas%20City%20Centre%20Link%20Up%20Line%20BX%20Route%20Option%20B.map.jpg

It is the best route option IMO, it avoids running ugly trams and their wiring in front of the most important historic buildings in Dublin. It also has less impact on the city as only one street needs to be dug up, rather then two.

As for cars, their are routes along the quays that don't use College Green.

As for buses, we should do away with most cross city bus services, instead northside buses could go down D'Olier St and back up Westmoreland street, with stops on these two streets. South side buses could go as far as Dame Street, with a turn around their and stops.

This then leaves just a nice short walk across a beautiful pedestranised College Green for people to transfer between north and south bound buses.

BrianD

bk wrote: »

It is the best route option IMO, it avoids running ugly trams and their wiring in front of the most important historic buildings in Dublin. It also has less impact on the city as only one street needs to be dug up, rather then two.

Let's not forget that all of Dublin's historic buildings had trams running in front of them before. The visual impact of tram infrastucture is almost minimal if done well.

Cathaoirleach

BrianD wrote: »

Let's not forget that all of Dublin's historic buildings had trams running in front of them before. The visual impact of tram infrastucture is almost minimal if done well.

Dublin City Council has already asked the RPA to come up with a wireless solution for College Gr. and O'Connell St.

charlemont

Hope it works out, Really needs the public transport sorted first though.

bk

BrianD wrote: »

Let's not forget that all of Dublin's historic buildings had trams running in front of them before. The visual impact of tram infrastucture is almost minimal if done well.

And from the pictures I've seen, it looked pretty ugly back then too.

No point in repeating the mistakes of the past.

I was in Oslo over the weekend, I noticed the trams go nowhere near the main shopping streets and historic buildings. They tend to run down smaller streets parallel to these.

Frankly Dublin City as a social space is a complete disaster and embarrassment compared to every city in Europe I've visited. We have the opportunity to fix that at least a little bit here. Lets not stick big ugly trams and their wires down our most important streets.

seamus

bk wrote: »

As for cars, there are routes along the quays that don't use College Green.

College Green has been practically no-go for private vehicles for a long time anyway. It's a through-route, but rarely the most convenient one. I actually think removal of college green for all traffic would simplify much of Dublin's crazy one-way systems, as much of them are in place to facilitate access to & from college green.

FreudianSlippers

bk wrote: »

And from the pictures I've seen, it looked pretty ugly back then too.

No point in repeating the mistakes of the past.

I was in Oslo over the weekend, I noticed the trams go nowhere near the main shopping streets and historic buildings. They tend to run down smaller streets parallel to these.

Frankly Dublin City as a social space is a complete disaster and embarrassment compared to every city in Europe I've visited. We have the opportunity to fix that at least a little bit here. Lets not stick big ugly trams and their wires down our most important streets.

Too bad all of those streets in Dublin are filled with junkies.

dubhthach

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Too bad all of those streets in Dublin are filled with junkies.

Doesn't help that someone bright in the relevant department decided to put 15+ treatment facilities in Dublin 1 alone.

BrianD

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

Dublin City Council has already asked the RPA to come up with a wireless solution for College Gr. and O'Connell St.

But is it necessary? The cost of providing of doing this is huge and goes back onto the taxpayer.

DCC's stance is ridiculous on this - trams already cross O'connell St. which is a very modern streetscape dropped in front of "historic buildings" - well most on O'connell St. were rebuilt post 1916 so not even 100 years old. Apart from the GPO the buildings on O'Connell St. are unremarkable and could hardly be described as historic.

As for College Green - two significant buildings in a spacious area. You could use decorative supports for the overheads or use the cantenary suspended cables that are almost invisible.

Years ago we had the saga of the LUAS on stilts at the Red Cow that cost the taxpayer a fortune in consultants reports. It's time that civil servants stopped this kind of nonsense and stop creating this barriers that cost you and I. Focus on the real issues.

College green back in the day ...



and ...

Aard

I agree; catenaries aren't that bad. Many other cities manage with them; we don't need to expensively reinvent the perennial Irish wheel. I live in Nice, which famously lacks catenaries in two squares. Yeah it looks good, but that's because they totally ripped out the squares of Massena and Garibaldi, reorganised them with regard to vehicular traffic, put in fancy new landscaping, and generally tarted them up in the extreme.

The only way I think OCS / CG could warrant a lack of catenaries would be if they did the same to them. Perhaps if they pedestrianised CG, there'd be an excuse. I really can't see them doing anything of note to OCS. As Brian said above, most of its buildings are unnoteworthy. Compare to Nice, which has just spent a buttload on re-façading the buildings on Garibaldi, and not to mention the existing grandeur of Massena with its archways and fountain. Dublin just doesn't live up. There are far more pertinent "urbanisme" projects to be done, like getting rid of the gaudy buildings for one.

It's like wearing an Hermes handbag with Pennies trackies.

dowlingm

Unlikely as it is, Dublin could source trams from another supplier like Bombardier or Siemens or CAF given their use of comparatively off the shelf specs (1435mm, 750VDC) for LUAS. Go wireless (APS, PRIMOVE) and you're in proprietary territory unless it's batteries like Nice did.

LXFlyer

bk wrote: »

As for buses, we should do away with most cross city bus services, instead northside buses could go down D'Olier St and back up Westmoreland street, with stops on these two streets. South side buses could go as far as Dame Street, with a turn around their and stops.

This then leaves just a nice short walk across a beautiful pedestranised College Green for people to transfer between north and south bound buses.

Ok so you are advocating all routes terminating in the city centre and therefore a return to large numbers of buses parking in the city centre between journeys and taking a large amount of on-street space? Remember to operate a bus service efficiently you have to build in a small amount of time (5-10 minutes) into the schedule to cope with unforeseen delays such as bad traffic etc. Therefore buses do generally have a short wait between journeys.

This is exactly what the current project in Dublin Bus is trying to avoid with a minimum number of routes terminating in the city centre, and offering far more cross-city direct connections, which is what most people want!

Irish and Proud

lxflyer wrote: »

Ok so you are advocating all routes terminating in the city centre and therefore a return to large numbers of buses parking in the city centre between journeys and taking a large amount of on-street space? Remember to operate a bus service efficiently you have to build in a small amount of time (5-10 minutes) into the schedule to cope with unforeseen delays such as bad traffic etc. Therefore buses do generally have a short wait between journeys.

This is exactly what the current project in Dublin Bus is trying to avoid with a minimum number of routes terminating in the city centre, and offering far more cross-city direct connections, which is what most people want!

+1

Terminating public transport services in city centres doesn't make sense - turn-a-rounds require more space than through routes because of the waiting periods involved (for buses and more so for trains), plus the fact that buses need more physical space to turn - they often use more streets in the city centre to do just that. Turn-a-rounds are best done in remote areas where there is more space and less congestion. Pedestrianizing College Green is not conducive to this thinking!

Aard

The only way city centre termini make sense is that if they're at rail/metro hubs, through which you can then traverse the city.

bk

lxflyer wrote: »

Ok so you are advocating all routes terminating in the city centre and therefore a return to large numbers of buses parking in the city centre between journeys and taking a large amount of on-street space? Remember to operate a bus service efficiently you have to build in a small amount of time (5-10 minutes) into the schedule to cope with unforeseen delays such as bad traffic etc. Therefore buses do generally have a short wait between journeys.

This is exactly what the current project in Dublin Bus is trying to avoid with a minimum number of routes terminating in the city centre, and offering far more cross-city direct connections, which is what most people want!

No I'm not suggesting they terminate in the city center, they would turn around and leave immediately. With Network Direct and the RTPI signs, we shouldn't really be using fixed time tables anymore, instead frequent bus services. Buses can wait at the outside city termini if they need to adjust teir running times.

Cathaoirleach

Posted this on the C&T forum

mgmt wrote: »

I know this is just a RPA render, but this is exactly what we don't want. Pedestrians being herded like cattle onto narrow pavements and traffic islands, and the rest of College Green dominated by cars, buses and Luas. :rolleyes:

Here's what any other European capital would do:

- Remove the trees, poles, ESB boxes, and all the other municipal tat
- Remove the railings from BOI and Trinity.
- Get rid of the islands and footpaths and pave the entire lot.

- Ban ALL traffic, except deliveries at certain hours.
- Don't segregate Luas from the rest of the plaza.
- Get rid of the taxi rank from Fosters Place

- CPO the Bank of Ireland and turn it into a Museum
- Zone the entire area for high quality cafés, restaurants and retail. No Carrolls gift shops or fúcking Supermacs.
- Commission a centerpiece element for the plaza, like a fountain or statue

Now you have a world class public plaza. Unfortuantely, this is Ireland, and Dublin City Council are in charge of the area, so you can forget about all of the above.


http://archiseek.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=8110&sid=4bf1173da6b3087daf78a59ad8d305a0&start=175#p114329

Aard

From the Irish Times (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2011/0709/1224300392083.html?via=mr):

PAUL CULLEN

THE GOVERNMENT wants to redevelop Dublin’s College Green to put it on a par with the great squares of Venice, London and New York.

The proposal forms part of plans to prevent Bank of Ireland selling off its historic branch on College Green, so the building can be turned into “Dublin’s Smithsonian” in time for the centenary of the 1916 Rising.

Minister for Arts Jimmy Deenihan is proposing the former Irish parliament building be used to house parts of the national art collection, a world literature centre, a national genealogy centre, a papers archive and a “digital media lab for cultural materials”, according to a departmental document seen by The Irish Times.

It claims College Green has “the potential to become a cultural and iconic counterpoint to the great city centre nuclei and city squares of the world – the Piazza San Marco in Venice; Trafalgar Square in London; the Place de la Concorde in Paris; Times Square in New York (without the crassness); St Peter’s and the Piazza Savona in Rome; Piazza del Campo in Siena; Covent Gardens in London; Hotel de Ville in Paris; Plaza Santa Ana in Madrid; Federation Square in Melbourne; Tiananmen Square in Beijing and the Grand Place in Brussels. A natural gravitation point on the verge of Europe.

“The Minister proposes the building be placed immediately beyond disposal by Bank of Ireland, given its historic importance and centrality to the Irish nation,” the proposals state.

Mr Deenihan approached the bank in May to seek the acquisition of the building for a literary centre. The bank rejected his approaches, saying College Green was a busy branch and central to its operations.

Despite this rebuff, the Minister is still seeking to acquire the building and has further developed his original proposal. The document, drawn up last month, proposes an Irish version of the Smithsonian in Washington DC, the largest museum in the world. It proposes the bank continue to occupy and maintain the site “pending its cultural animation”.

The return of the building to State ownership would provide an appropriate way of marking the centenary of the 1916 Rising, he suggests.

“A dated return of the College Green building to the Irish people is a tangible and real response to the voices of history.” Mr Deenihan suggests the complex could be renamed along the lines of the Kennedy Centre in the US, for example, by calling it the O’Connell Centre for the Arts.

Aard

Again from the Irish Times (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2011/0709/1224300374128.html?via=mr):

PAUL CULLEN

State plans to put the flagship Bank of Ireland building to cultural use have been expanded and now include a pedestrianised plaza on Dublin’s College Green

LET US take back from a bank that has nearly ruined us its flagship premises, a building that was the home of an Irish parliament long before there was an independent Irish state. Let us create, phoenix-like, from this ruinous financial legacy a project that will resonate throughout the world by reminding people of our cultural greatness.

The symbolism of restoring the Bank of Ireland branch on Dublin’s College Green to State ownership is inescapable; as if by wresting control of the historic building from the overlords of economic profligacy we can spring free of our current difficulties.

Just as the late 19th-century advocates of the Celtic revival restored the spirits of a nation by drawing on the literary traditions of an earlier era, the current proposal arouses hopes of an escape from the chains of our economic miasma by revisiting an earlier heritage. The proposal also suggests a unifying way of celebrating the disputed legacy of the 1916 Rising on its forthcoming centenary through the creation of “a compelling punctuation to a century of freedom”.

Few ideas in recent times have grabbed public attention as much as the Government’s proposal to turn the College Green site into a literary landmark.

For some, it offers restitution against a bank that has swallowed billions in taxpayers’ money. Others believe such a historic site should never have fallen into the hands of a grubby bank. Still others are motivated by concerns of architectural glory, or the promotion of tourism, or fear Bank of Ireland, and with it the College Green banks, could soon be taken over by foreign interests.

There’s hardly a politician in Dublin who doesn’t have a view on the issue. Former Green Party minister Eamon Ryan and Fianna Fáil’s Sean Haughey raised it in the past and, in recent months, a queue of deputies seeking to unburden themselves of their ideas for the building has formed at the door of Minister for Arts Jimmy Deenihan.

Newly elected Labour TD Aodhán Ó Ríordáin, for example, would like to see the city library moved from its current location in the Ilac centre to College Green. “When you think of Dublin in international terms you think of its literary heritage. It would be a fantastic fit,” he says.

Not unexpectedly, Bank of Ireland was quick to tell the Minister of the importance of the branch to its operations, though it has long since ceased to be the bank’s headquarters.

Far from being put off by the bank’s rebuff, Deenihan appears to have redoubled his efforts to judge from detailed proposals drawn up on his behalf in the last month. These show that what started life as a proposal to create a literary centre on the site has expanded significantly in ambition.

What is proposed now is nothing less than the Dublin Smithsonian, according to the document. For those unfamiliar with the largest museum in the world, the Smithsonian in Washington DC comprises 19 museums and galleries, a zoo and nine research facilities.

In College Green, the proposed cultural centre would house parts of the national art collection, a centre of world literature, a national genealogy centre, an archive of historic papers and a “digital media lab for cultural materials”.

The proposal situates the bank at the hub of Dublin, the place where the main arteries of the city converge. College Green, it says, has the potential to become a “cultural and iconic counterpoint” to the great city squares of the world and “a natural gravitational point on the verge of Europe”. St Mark’s Square in Venice, Times Square in New York, St Peter’s in Rome and several other universally renowned squares are mentioned in the same breath, without any hint of embarrassment.

“Given the importance of the College Green nexus to the city every effort should be made to re-imagine the entire quarter,” the document states, referring to the benefits for property investors, cultural tourism and civic pride.

As the document reminds the bank, College Green was the venue chosen by two of the great orators of our time for their “seminal speeches” in Ireland: Bill Clinton and Barack Obama. The bank building was the first purpose-built parliament in Europe and served as Ireland’s parliament from 1739 until the Act of Union in 1801.

The design by Edward Lovett Pearce, semi-circular in shape and occupying 0.6 hectares, was revolutionary with extensions added by James Gandon, it says.

“Thus, this building is not only important from a Parliamentary point of view; it also tracks the history and progress of Irish architectural design through the 18th and 19th centuries.” Gaining control of College Green might be the easy bit for the Government. The bank, of which the State owns 36 per cent, is desperately short of funds. It is expected to be majority-owned by the Government within months, after which Ministers will be able to call the shots.

It seems likely that some form of accommodation will be reached to allow the bank to continue operating on at least part of the premises for a time. Deenihan has even suggested the bank might like to provide seed funds for the conversion of the site into an international cultural hub.

The challenge of creating a cultural centre to match the scale of ambition of those behind the project remains considerable.

Valuable cultural artefacts can’t be dumped in the nearest likely building. They need a temperature-controlled environment, high security, expensive insurance policies and attractive marketing strategies. The minister’s advisers insist Government funding cannot be guaranteed and the opportunity to generate revenue to support costs is “paramount”.

Developing the wider space around College Green also poses challenges. The row over the closure of the green to vehicles other than buses showed how much resistance there is to restrictions on traffic in this part of the city.

The idea of turning College Green into a pedestrian plaza is a bridge too far for Ó Ríordáin, who says it is “too important as a transport hub to be turned over to pedestrians in the long term”.

It offers restitution against a bank that has swallowed billions in taxpayers’ money

Note that he said there's plans for pedestrianisation.

mgmt

This would be my proposal for a pedestrianised College Green.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=200832783753934675596.0004a7a5ea05d5ebafb44&msa=0&ll=53.345223,-6.258345&spn=0.013835,0.042272

dubhthach

Why would you call it the "O'Connell Centre for the arts" though? Surely it would be more fitting to call it "The Grattan Centre for the arts".

Crystalset

Do not forget Sir Boyle Roche, the greatest practitioner of Irish bull.
"Why we should put ourselves out of our way to do anything for posterity, for what has posterity ever done for us?"

IngazZagni

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

Here's what any other European capital would do:

- Remove the trees, poles, ESB boxes, and all the other municipal tat
- Remove the railings from BOI and Trinity.
- Get rid of the islands and footpaths and pave the entire lot.

- Ban ALL traffic, except deliveries at certain hours.
- Don't segregate Luas from the rest of the plaza.
- Get rid of the taxi rank from Fosters Place

- CPO the Bank of Ireland and turn it into a Museum
- Zone the entire area for high quality cafés, restaurants and retail. No Carrolls gift shops or fúcking Supermacs.
- Commission a centerpiece element for the plaza, like a fountain or statue

Now you have a world class public plaza. Unfortuantely, this is Ireland, and Dublin City Council are in charge of the area, so you can forget about all of the above.

So where would all the current bus traffic go? Onto other streets and create even more congestion elsewhere?

What any other Euro capital would do? Don't think so, most other European cities/capitals have poorly designed streets (in general) as well with a few exceptions.

Don't get me wrong I would love to see a pedestrianized College Green I'm just wondering where we will put all the current traffic? Also Amsterdam is a good example I feel of good integration of trams onto pedestrianized streets and plazas. The same could be done in College Green I feel.

Wild Bill

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

Here's what any other European capital would do:

- Remove the trees, poles, ESB boxes, and all the other municipal tat

Eh..they would NOT remove all the trees. Have you ever seen them? :cool:

Wild Bill

The idea is great btw; it's just some of the add-ons suggested here are OTT; or plain daft.

We should be very thankful that Dublin City Council will be in charge of this and not Boards.ie!

eia340600

Wild Bill wrote: »

Eh..they would NOT remove all the trees. Have you ever seen them? :cool:

They might not remove trees normally, but they would definitely remove those trees.

Cathaoirleach

Wild Bill wrote: »

Eh..they would NOT remove all the trees.

What makes you think that?

Trees were never part of the original plan for College Green. In fact, the trees currently in situ were only planted in the 80's.

The trees block the views of Dublin's finest architecture. They block out light at day and the street lamps at night.

Get rid of them. They were never meant to be there in the first place.

Wild Bill

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

What makes you think that?

Trees were never part of the original plan for College Green. In fact, the trees currently in situ were only planted in the 80's.

The trees block the views of Dublin's finest architecture. They block out light at day and the street lamps at night.

Get rid of them. They were never meant to be there in the first place.

Your photos indicate how sterile the area looked before the trees. Take a leaf from Paris.

The visual-aesthetic-deficit plagues the FF rural councillor and the D4 self-imagined sophisticate alike.

Those trees are what make that space. If anything, we need more of them.

:cool:

Aard

While I love trees, they're usually more suited to streets with cars in order to close them in as it were and bring a more human dimension. They don't call them "leafy" suburbs for nothing; trees are a natural traffic calmer, their trunks act as soft barriers against traffic. In a public square though, you want to maximise sunlight and a view of the sky, not to mention a view of the "signature" buildings in College Green's case.

Trinity is every tourist's wet dream, and the Old Parliament is unnecessarily obscured; bringing them into prominence would turn a thoroughfare into a destination. I believe the trees help shuffle people through without thinking of looking up and taking in the various aspects of the square.