Pedestrianise College Green for 2016

Aard

I think people place far too much store in the supposed importance of particular streets. Closing College Green to cars, or indeed closing off O'Connell St, would lead to a bit of confusion and congestion for a few days. I conceed that. However, people would soon figure out alternative routes.

Case study: Embarcadero Freeway, San Francisco. This was a heavily-trafficked urban motorway bang in the centre of San Francisco. It was destroyed in an earthquake. There was talk of rebuilding it, but after a few weeks or months it was realised that drivers managed to find alternative routes. There was no congestion so it was never rebuilt.

The corollory of that is that when you build roads, you create a previous non-existant demand for them. The only way to effectively reduce car traffic is by reducing road space. This can be done through reducing the number of lanes, through imposing speed limits, through creating no-through routes, or most effectively of all through simply removing the carriageway altogether.

If College Green were closed off to cars (I like Monument's subtle marketing tactic of calling it a 24-hour bus gate!!) it wouldn't be the end of the world. In fact you'd find that it would actually decrease demand for road space in the immediate vicinity.

Aquarius34

BoySnowie wrote: »

22% of 9 yo girls in Ireland are overweight - 8% being obese. 17% of boys the same age are overweight with the extra 5% being obese. That is mentioned in "Call Health in Ireland: Key Trends 2011" report by Department of Health on Ireland’s health and medical needs over the last ten years.

From Irish Times (4 Dec 2012): Obesity has been described as a global epidemic, one the developed world is struggling to contain without much success. Three decades ago, fewer than one in 10 people were obese. Since then the number has soared. In Ireland, one in four adults is obese, a similar rate to the UK but far higher than the European average. Obesity has a high financial cost for the taxpayer and – for some who are obese – a potentially lethal consequence. A report by Safefood, a State-funded health promotion group, put the annual direct cost of treating obesity at some €400 million. And a further €700 million is the estimated indirect cost from obesity- related illnesses, absenteeism and premature deaths.

Obesity is a big problem here in Ireland. Over reliance on cars is not the right way of addressing our national health issues. We are supposed to make Dublin a more healthier, liveable and living city yet you care more about where you can park your overpriced piece of junk and that you want to have an easy time going through the city centre, bothering pedestrians and cyclists, causing traffic and hitting the Luas again on O'Connell Street.

I think O'Connell Street should be 100% pedestrianised all the way from College Green to the Parnell Memorial.

Now that is a ridiculous argument, how absurd is this going to get. I am well aware that many of you are working within the council, because I can tell by these puerile arguments. If this is even an argument, then all Dublin city councilors should not drive cars anymore, end of.

I can imagine you'll shut up then with this type of nonsense.

Obesity is not linked to car use. I am not even going to comment anymore more on that pile of crap. Obesity is linked to bad nutrition and not exercising. Not everyone has a gym within walking distance, and exercising has sweet f*ck all to do with the pedestrianization of college Green.

BoySnowie

Aquarius34 wrote: »

Now that is a ridiculous argument, how absurd is this going to get. I am well aware that many of you are working within the council, because I can tell by these puerile arguments. If this is even an argument, then all Dublin city councilors should not drive cars anymore, end of.

Here you go again with your conspiracy theories. You are being paranoid again. Yes, it would be wise if you are to refrain from pouting out so much pro-car anti-progress silliness in this forum. The pedestrianisation of College Green will happen nevertheless and there is nothing you can do about it.

monument

Aquarius34 wrote: »

I want you to face reality.

The reality put forward by you, somebody who is obsessed with overplaying public transport in central Amsterdam when over 60% of city centre travellers use bicycles?

Aquarius34 wrote: »

Now that is a ridiculous argument, how absurd is this going to get. I am well aware that many of you are working within the council, because I can tell by these puerile arguments. If this is even an argument, then all Dublin city councilors should not drive cars anymore, end of.

I can imagine you'll shut up then with this type of nonsense.

Again: Off to this board with you!

Aquarius34 wrote: »

Obesity is not linked to car use. I am not even going to comment anymore more on that pile of crap. Obesity is linked to bad nutrition and not exercising. Not everyone has a gym within walking distance, and exercising has sweet f*ck all to do with the pedestrianization of college Green.

Obesity has been linked to overeating, poor eating and inactive (including car use).

Aquarius34

I would seriosuly have you all fired, if I had evidence that all of you worked within Dublin city council or work closely with them.

To mention "Obesity" as an argument that stands for a reason to pedestrianize college green, Is well up there as the most hideous statements I've ever heard.

Obesity is linked to, not exercising. It has nothing to do with driving a car, and it has nothing at all to do with the issues been raised with College Green. If you are going to make this argument then we shouldn't use buses either, you'd get fat on buses just as you would in a car.

It's a good job I have a sense of humour. It is funny reading this nonsense.

BoySnowie

Aquarius34 wrote: »

To mention "Obesity" as an argument that stands for a reason to pedestrianize college green, Is well up there as the most hideous statements I've ever heard. Obesity is linked to, not exercising. It has nothing to do with driving a car, and it has nothing at all to do with the issues been raised with College Green. If you are going to make this argument then we shouldn't use buses either, you'd get fat on buses just as you would in a car.

Having a plaza at College Green and predestrianised O'Connell Street, Westmoreland Street, Nassau Street and Dame Street will lead to more people walking more and more. If the buses won't get to the front door of whatever they want to be, they will have to walk more from the nearest bus to somewhere on College Green.

More exercises. More physical activities. Good for your body, your mental health and your mind.

But then again, a dictator/troll like you who insists on firing everyone who disagrees with your particular ideas, will not understand the links between obesity, unhealthier living and a car-clogged Dublin.

p.s. I am more than glad obesity is your favourite word - so enjoy laughing at your stupidity.

Aquarius34

BoySnowie wrote: »

Having a plaza at College Green and predestrianised O'Connell Street, Westmoreland Street, Nassau Street and Dame Street will lead to more people walking more and more. If the buses won't get to the front door of whatever they want to be, they will have to walk more from the nearest bus to somewhere on College Green.

More exercises. More physical activities. Good for your body, your mental health and your mind.

But then again, a dictator/troll like you who insists on firing everyone who disagrees with your particular ideas, will not understand the links between obesity, unhealthier living and a car-clogged Dublin.

p.s. I am more than glad obesity is your favourite word - so enjoy laughing at your stupidity.

Wonderful.

Still doesn't excuse the fact that Dublins transport system is an embarrassment. And simply closing off College Green and not sorting out public transport requirements proves one thing, what a mess Dublin city council are. Dublin city council are not concerned about the health of the people if they are not even concerned about the lack of brain cells they have in their skulls.

I am very serious with my statement. I'd have them all fired. This nonsense has been going on for years and nothing has little to nothing has been done to fix Dublin's transport problems.

Aard

Aquarius34 wrote: »

Still doesn't excuse the fact that Dublins transport system is an embarrassment. And simply closing off College Green and not sorting out public transport requirements proves one thing, what a mess Dublin city council are. Dublin city council are not concerned about the health of the people if they are not even concerned about the lack of brain cells they have in their skulls.

Can you not have reasoned debate without resorting to insults and name-calling?

Also, Dublin City Council are not proponents of closing off College Green.

Aquarius34

Aard wrote: »

Can you not have reasoned debate without resorting to insults and name-calling?

You cannot reason with anyone who makes a claim for pedestrianizing College Green on the bases to counter Ireland's rising Obesity levels. Don't act like you don't think it's nonsense. it's farcical. Westmoreland street, O'Connell's street and College Green has one of the widest streets in Dublin city centre provided for pedestrians. That argument for Obesity what you would call pathetic. Dublin's inability to take full responsibility and action to sort out Dublin's transport needs is also inept and inexcusable.

There is no name calling but calling out on this ridiculousness.

Also, Dublin City Council are not proponents of closing off College Green.

Now that's a blatant lie.

Synode

Aquarius34 you're losing this debate comprehensively.

If all you want to do is complain about Dublin City Council and in particular its planners, start a new thread.

If you want to fire everyone, I suggest you get a job with them first

monument

Aquarius34 wrote: »

Now that's a blatant lie.

Please, show us one bit of evidence that Dublin City Council supports the idea of pedestrianise for College Green.

Can you do that?

Victor

Aquarius34 wrote: »

I would seriosuly have you all fired, if I had evidence that all of you worked within Dublin city council or work closely with them.

Behave. You will need to improve the standard of you posts if you wish to continue posting here.

Moderator

patrickbrophy18

Aquarius34 wrote: »

There has been land reserved along Sandyford, a passage up to the N11 and a tunnel that was proposed to meet at Eastlink. It has been on the planning agenda for decades. The M50 is not finished. That's the point you seem to miss again. In Ireland nothing get's done or we patch things up. The point is, our city has a very bad transport system.

The M50 is complete as it is fulfilling it's ultimate purpose of bringing cars from the north of Dublin to the south of Dublin and it bypasses the city center. Having said that, it took ludicrously long to build (I believe 30 years on and off). The reserved land you're talking about in Sandyford is in preparation for the Eastern Bypass. Unfortunately, the recession has made it next to impossible for a completion date in the next 10 years. Bear in mind that a comparatively large portion of this route is bridge and tunnel boring which are incredibly expensive and time-consuming construction techniques.

Aquarius34 wrote: »

The idea is lovely. I am actually for the idea believe it or not, but not until proper transport management is in place. I will not accept the idea of "moving traffic elsewhere" or "just leave it open for buses or whatever".

The metro and other public transport schemes need to be put in places first. They are priorities. A pedestrian zed College Green is a luxury scheme, and in order for it to go ahead, we have to put or priorities right first.

I agree with you here. It's sort of the cart before the horse. The public transportation in Dublin is absolutely crap. However, this is down to a combination of a lot of other factors and not solely the Dublin City Council. Dublin Bus and Irish Rail haven't been a big help either due to the cut backs and fares increases. The dismal failure to implement major projects in Transport 21 such as Metro North, Metro West and DART Underground are huge factors in this as well. In fact, these three projects were crucial in reducing congestion in Dublin. While the performance of both Luas lines is very efficient in the suburbs, they become glorified buses in the city center with the excessive stops and integration with other traffic modes. They are also disconnected from each other which is completely idiotic.

Aquarius34 wrote: »

Anyway I think most people understand my point's, and to anyone who doesn't well I don't think they realise that common sense planning is lacking in our city .

To a certain extent, you're right. A lot of other cities like London, Paris and New York should have been some inspiration to the planning of Dublin with their extensive networks of underground rail lines and ground level meshes. Mind you, if the movies are anything to go by, gridlock still seems to be an issue in New York despite the excellent public transportation system that is there. If pedestrianizing College Green is to go ahead, there needs to be a better incentive on the broader spectrum and most notably in the field of public transport. This includes optimizing the performance of existing routes and introduction of new ones. I am aware that car usage is a problem and needs to be significantly reduced. However, this needs to be part of a much longer term plan for when the country gets back on it's feet financially. Having said that, the pedestrianization of Grafton Street and Henry Street to name but a few appear to have been a complete success.

On the other hand, there is indeed credence in the correlation of obesity (in general) and car/bus usage. Nevertheless, it is one in many factors in this epidemic with the others being regular trips to fast food restaurants and a generally inactive lifestyle. In the case of buses, neighborhood detours and excessive stops at short intervals does foster the type of laziness that leads to obesity. In such cases, bus routes should be restricted to QBCs and main distributor roads. Conversely, not all bus users are devoid of the requisite exercise regimes that prevent obesity.

Anytime I do go into town, I make it my duty to navigate the various retail streets and thoroughfares by foot. An example of this would be going from Parnell Street to Baggot Street. If rain becomes an issue, I take cover in places like the Ilac Center or St. Stephens Green Shopping Center.

Eric Cartman

Aquarius34 wrote: »

I forgot to mention that Amsterdam has a metro.

Dublin still has none. The argument for pedestrianizing College green will not happen until Dublin's public transport is sorted. No excuses and washy washy make believe facts.

I had to laugh at the statement that car traffic is "Low" on college green. Now that is a pile of shiite.

+1

There is far too much traffic and a need for roads to pedestrianize any more of dublin city, even as it is the roadways are very restrictive, college green needs to remain a roadway to keep dublin flowing.

Aard

Eric Cartman wrote: »

There is far too much traffic and a need for roads to pedestrianize any more of dublin city, even as it is the roadways are very restrictive, college green needs to remain a roadway to keep dublin flowing.

More roads leads to more traffic. If there's a concern about "far too much traffic", then the trick is to remove road space.

ardmacha

I think O'Connell Street should be 100% pedestrianised all the way from College Green to the Parnell Memorial.

Do you really mean pedestrianised, or are proposing allowing trams and cyclists speed through it?

BoySnowie

ardmacha wrote: »

Do you really mean pedestrianised, or are proposing allowing trams and cyclists speed through it?

Trams allowed at a slow speed - look at Leidsestraat in Amsterdam - its a busy shopping street (same street width as Grafton St) yet they have regular trams going through!

If there's enough room for a dedicated cycle path, then why not?

donvito99

Alexanderplatz, Berlin also is a good example of pedestrians and trams getting along with minimal street paraphernalia in a public space.

https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&tab=wl&authuser=0

Aquarius34

Aard wrote: »

More roads leads to more traffic. If there's a concern about "far too much traffic", then the trick is to remove road space.

We don't have any road infrastructure, there still needs to be an adequate road transport system. If you're going to remove road space you need to fill the void with alternate means of transport. Which is the point most Irish people seem to miss on this situation with the functioning of transportation. We don't have a proper transport system in Dublin and it is well below the standard met in European cities.

Aquarius34

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

The M50 is complete as it is fulfilling it's ultimate purpose of bringing cars from the north of Dublin to the south of Dublin and it bypasses the city center. Having said that, it took ludicrously long to build (I believe 30 years on and off). The reserved land you're talking about in Sandyford is in preparation for the Eastern Bypass. Unfortunately, the recession has made it next to impossible for a completion date in the next 10 years. Bear in mind that a comparatively large portion of this route is bridge and tunnel boring which are incredibly expensive and time-consuming construction techniques.

I agree, but it's a motorway thats what 20 miles long and took us 30 years to build and then go rebuild it's junctions within that timeframe and it's still not finished. It's utterly shambles. This country must be one of the worst in the world for starting projects and finsihing them. The "no money point" just doesn't sit with me. I call it bull****. When we had "money" nothing changed. I believe the money is there, they are just not spending it and not managing it well.

I agree with you here. It's sort of the cart before the horse. The public transportation in Dublin is absolutely crap. However, this is down to a combination of a lot of other factors and not solely the Dublin City Council. Dublin Bus and Irish Rail haven't been a big help either due to the cut backs and fares increases. The dismal failure to implement major projects in Transport 21 such as Metro North, Metro West and DART Underground are huge factors in this as well. In fact, these three projects were crucial in reducing congestion in Dublin. While the performance of both Luas lines is very efficient in the suburbs, they become glorified buses in the city center with the excessive stops and integration with other traffic modes. They are also disconnected from each other which is completely idiotic.

Thanks so someone finally see's the point and not see that these are my own fanciful thinking here. This city is a joke on so many counts and it's just not acceptable. We are a city of 1 million with generally flat terrain, plenty of space, and evenly spread out, we don't have huge obstacles of any sort to stop us from building a proper transport system in this city.

To a certain extent, you're right. A lot of other cities like London, Paris and New York should have been some inspiration to the planning of Dublin with their extensive networks of underground rail lines and ground level meshes. Mind you, if the movies are anything to go by, gridlock still seems to be an issue in New York despite the excellent public transportation system that is there. If pedestrianizing College Green is to go ahead, there needs to be a better incentive on the broader spectrum and most notably in the field of

We don't even need inspiration from these cities, We can take inspiration from cities of similar populations to ours. All European cities are building metro's and highly efficient public transport systems. They can afford and by logic pedestrianize city squares because they have public transport modes provided so people can switch from our cars to other means of transport. In Dublin we can't do that. That is the problem here. We still refuse to sort these matters out properly and objectively head on.

public transport. This includes optimizing the performance of existing routes and introduction of new ones. I am aware that car usage is a problem and needs to be significantly reduced. However, this needs to be part of a much longer term plan for when the country gets back on it's feet financially.

That was my point about College green and the bus routes there. Instead of improving the flow of traffic, improving bus routes and efficiency we just dig up the street and plant a square on it. Which is utterly absurd given just how busy this route is and just how much buses is use this road. It's the busiest bus and car route within the city centre. How people can excuse that fact, is beyond delusional..

Having said that, the pedestrianization of Grafton Street and Henry Street to name but a few appear to have been a complete success.

True, but they are shopping streets that didn't have the type of traffic levels College green has. Henry street isn't a "destination type road or through road" to begin with. Grafton Street was a through road. But when Grafton Street was closed southern traffic still had to use other roads surrounding to get to St. Stephens green and to travel on south of the green. Traffic was just moved to other streets. The problem was never really solved either. The other problem Grafton street had was it was a very shopping street and the paths were just too narrow for pedestrians and the traffic was to much also for the road been too narrow also. They are not schemes you can compare to College Green at all. Also if College green was closed, there would be serious problems for south traffic, as Kildare streets and adjacent streets would become chaotic.

On the other hand, there is indeed credence in the correlation of obesity (in general) and car/bus usage. Nevertheless, it is one in many factors in this epidemic with the others being regular trips to fast food restaurants and a generally inactive lifestyle. In the case of buses, neighborhood detours and excessive stops at short intervals does foster the type of laziness that leads to obesity. In such cases, bus routes should be restricted to QBCs and main distributor roads. Conversely, not all bus users are devoid of the requisite exercise regimes that prevent obesity.

Obesity is not linked to car/bus transport. Car/bus transport is a requirement to keep the city moving. Areas such as College Green is predominately long distance traffic and moderate journeys by bus and cars. It's a north to south and west arterial road. It has nearly all of South city bus routes passing on that road. If obesity the case, then we shouldn't have the Luas then. That will make people fat. What makes people fat is over eating, been lazy and just been piggy. I am telling you now I am getting sick of this point been raised on this issue, it's irrelevant. If it's such an issue, bring an exercise bike on the Luas or something. I am not even going to comment anymore on this pointless argument. It has no bearings to this subject. It was a stupid point made by someone in desperate to negate from the argument I put forward about proper transport in the city. College green will not be pedestrianized until the Dart underground is built and something is done to improve the transport modes there first.

Car/Bus transport is a fact of life. It's what get's the city moving. Walking is for short journeys. This is not the topic of discussion and neither is obesity.

Anytime I do go into town, I make it my duty to navigate the various retail streets and thoroughfares by foot. An example of this would be going from Parnell Street to Baggot Street. If rain becomes an issue, I take cover in places like the Ilac Center or St. Stephens Green Shopping Center.

It still doesn't excuse that Dublin needs proper infrastructure, it hasn't and it has to be fixed.

Aquarius34

ardmacha wrote: »

Do you really mean pedestrianised, or are proposing allowing trams and cyclists speed through it?

O'Connell street is fine the way it is, it has the widest pedestrian sidewalks in Europe at this rate. There is absolutely nothing wrong with having taxis and buses on the street. I think it's a very stupid idea to pedestrian this street as it's too wide. Why extend the pavement more? Dublin is a small city. Pedestrianinsing large areas and especially streets like this is not a good idea.

monument

I'm even less sure about O'Connell Street than College Green, but let's play devil's advocate...

Aquarius34 wrote: »

O'Connell street is fine the way it is, it has the widest pedestrian sidewalks in Europe at this rate.

The largest in Europe? That's some claim. Are you sure you're correct?

Aquarius34 wrote: »

I think it's a very stupid idea to pedestrian this street as it's too wide.

How is it too wide? Since when is there a max size for a pedestrian street?

Aquarius34 wrote: »

Dublin is a small city. Pedestrianinsing large areas and especially streets like this is not a good idea.

It's already been pointed out that there's load of cities around the same size and smaller than Dublin with large areas pedestrianised.

Many of these done so without metros etc.

Aquarius34 wrote: »

They can afford and by logic pedestrianize city squares because they have public transport modes provided so people can switch from our cars to other means of transport.

Copenhagen is a prime example of where the large pedestrianised area came before its metro.

We can do the same with our large bus network backed by Luas, Dart and Commuter rail.... And yes! Also with cycling and walking!

Aquarius34 wrote: »

In Dublin we can't do that. That is the problem here. We still refuse to sort these matters out properly and objectively head on.

Err... objectively?! But you can't deal with facts and you keep making stuff up!!!

Aquarius34 wrote: »

It's the busiest bus and car route within the city centre. How people can excuse that fact, is beyond delusional..

It's by no means the busiest car route.

It's close to cars at peak times... Why can't you accept that?

Aquarius34 wrote: »

They are not schemes you can compare to College Green at all. Also if College green was closed, there would be serious problems for south traffic, as Kildare streets and adjacent streets would become chaotic.

Same thing was said about Grafton Street, the Bus Gate at College Green, Luas in the city centre on both sides of the river, and the QBC bus lane network before that.

Excuses. More and more excuses.

Aquarius34 wrote: »

Obesity is not linked to car/bus transport. Car/bus transport is a requirement to keep the city moving. Areas such as College Green is predominately long distance traffic and moderate journeys by bus and cars. It's a north to south and west arterial road. It has nearly all of South city bus routes passing on that road. If obesity the case, then we shouldn't have the Luas then. That will make people fat. What makes people fat is over eating, been lazy and just been piggy. I am telling you now I am getting sick of this point been raised on this issue, it's irrelevant. If it's such an issue, bring an exercise bike on the Luas or something. I am not even going to comment anymore on this pointless argument. It has no bearings to this subject. It was a stupid point made by someone in desperate to negate from the argument I put forward about proper transport in the city.

Obesity is linked to car use... http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Obesity+linked+to+car+use

Researches in DCU are getting a shocking picture of how little people walk in a culture where so many people only walk from their house to the car in the driveway and from the car in the car park to the lift and then just to their desks. Even some of the shorter walks to a Luas stop is many times that distance.

It's sad that you're so dismissive.

Aquarius34 wrote: »

Car/Bus transport is a fact of life. It's what get's the city moving. Walking is for short journeys.

Cycling fills in a large gap inbetween.

But it is already clear you want to be blind to cycing given your reaction to me posting stats from Amsterdam!

leshamry

http://celtcia.com/blog/2013/6/21/celtcia-release-masterplan-concept-for-discussion-and-review-by-dublin-city-council-nta

donvito99

Didn't realise that BXD goes down to single track at the bottom of Grafton St for about 10 metres.

LXFlyer

donvito99 wrote: »

Didn't realise that BXD goes down to single track at the bottom of Grafton St for about 10 metres.

Not according to the EIS plans - where are you finding this information?

donvito99

lxflyer wrote: »

Not according to the EIS plans - where are you finding this information?

This post:

leshamry wrote: »

http://celtcia.com/blog/2013/6/21/celtcia-release-masterplan-concept-for-discussion-and-review-by-dublin-city-council-nta

Top left corner of Trinity in this image.

etchyed

donvito99 wrote: »

This post:





Top left corner of Trinity in this image.

That image is wrong (in more ways than one).

Actual alignment is shown here:
http://www.dublinluasbroombridge.ie/Downloads/PlanofProposedWorks/01-ALIGNMENT_PROPERTY/18_BXD_P_29_A-B.pdf

leshamry

I think DCC/RPA need more funding to do the job properly once rather than twice.

FreudianSlippers

By god I think we did it lol.

http://bit.ly/1ev2v4u

donvito99

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

By god I think we did it lol.

http://bit.ly/1ev2v4u

I like it. The Westmoreland renovation looks great. D'Olier still looks cramped.