Cardinal will only step down if told by Pope

sbsquarepants

To my mind the catholic church is as vile and disgusting an organisation as has ever existed in the history of humanity. I agree with scumlord, it has now gotten to the point where sides must be chosen, we are either with them or against them, no more sitting on the fence. F.uck this, "they do a lot of good too", attitude. I'm sure there were nice nazis, i'm sure there are nice mafiosi, i'm sure there are nice triads etc, means bugger all, the institution is septic and should be proscribed end of story. The catholic church should have it's assets seized and sold right down to to nice summer dresses the priests wear and they should then be expelled from the country, never to return. The organisation is scum, rotten to the core, evil in fact, every and any person who supports it is complicit in my view.

Harsh? Yes, and deservedly so

Fratton Fred

Mark200 wrote: »

Great, and thanks to your narrow-mindedness the children in question who suffered child abuse would now be criminals.

It's disgusting that this cardinal didn't report it, but how did he break the law??? I'm pretty sure preventing the course of justice only applies to things like people lying to the police about what they saw. He didn't prevent anything, he just omitted to do something about it.

Are you for real?

What I am saying is that he should have had no choice. He knew children were being abused and he is hiding behind people like you who are giving him excuses.

The law should be black and white, if you know a child is being abused and you do nothing about it, you are as guilty as the abuser.

I'm not sure how that makes me narrow minded, its common ****ing sense as far as I can see.

prinz

Fratton Fred wrote: »

What I am saying is that he should have had no choice.
The law should be black and white, if you know a child is being abused and you do nothing about it, you are as guilty as the abuser..

+1 Reporting to civil authorities should be obligatory.

super_furry

I honestly am done with the Catholic church. Don't want to get married in one, don't want to have any children baptised into it and certainly wouldn't want to be buried there.

It's a morally corrupt organisation that seems to be rotten to the core.

the_dark_side

Just looked up citizens arrest Ireland, and it does exist, but the offence must be one that would carry a minimum jail sentence of 5 years... aiding and abetting child abuse, does this constitute a 5 year sentnce anyone?

http://www.politics.ie/justice/44617-citizens-arrest-ireland.html

humanji

the_dark_side wrote: »

Just looked up citizens arrest Ireland, and it does exist, but the offence must be one that would carry a minimum jail sentence of 5 years... aiding and abetting child abuse, does this constitute a 5 year sentnce anyone?

http://www.politics.ie/justice/44617-citizens-arrest-ireland.html

Is there any sort of statute of limitations thingy for this, though?

the_dark_side

humanji wrote: »

Is there any sort of statute of limitations thingy for this, though?

just looked it up....

"....A citizen's arrest occurs when a citizen detains a criminal and holds them until the police arrive and arrest the criminal. A citizen only can "arrest" a criminal if he witnesses the commission of the crime by the criminal. The crime must be an actual criminal offense, not a mere traffic offense or violation of an ordinance. Other terms for citizen's arrest include citizen's detention and private person arrest.
What are the Limitations of Citizen's Arrest?
A citizen may not use deadly or excessive force when detaining a criminal. Furthermore, law enforcement must agree with the citizen that a crime has occurred prior to the filing of any charges against the alleged criminal."

PeterIanStaker

Sulmac wrote: »

Canon law isn't law. It's not made by the Oireachtas, it's not enforceable by the courts service, and it's not applicable to all our citizens. Ergo, it's not [part of] the law of the land.

Using Canon law as a way to justify this is disgusting (I know you aren't, but the Catholic Church is).

Thank you, This is exactly the point I was making. The phrase "a law unto themselves" is probably biblical in origin.

PeterIanStaker

Jakkass wrote: »

If the RCC wants to redeem itself at all after this it will have to stop being in denial and being more transparent.

It cannot redeem itself. Its over. The RCC is finished.

super_furry

There's denial from top to bottom over the entire thing within the church. From the Pope to the parishioners - there's not even any mention of it on the Christianity forum here.

Ultravid

Good background reading here for anyone interested in throwing out both baby and bathwater:

http://www.seattlecatholic.com/article_20020820_Keep_the_Faith_Change_the_Church.html

I also add that the RCC today has among the best, most robust child protection system in Ireland. Also the Church isn't finished, but is in need of constant purification. This is happening as we type.

the_dark_side

in case there are people that havent seen this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xajCUE6oHkI

philologos

super_furry wrote: »

There's denial from top to bottom over the entire thing within the church. From the Pope to the parishioners - there's not even any mention of it on the Christianity forum here.

Most likely 1) there is mention of it everywhere else, and 2) a lot of the posters in the Christianity forum aren't Roman Catholics.

prinz

super_furry wrote: »

- there's not even any mention of it on the Christianity forum here.

There has been many many threads on child abuse by religious on the Christianity forum. Unfortunately the vast majority end in name calling and tarring with the same brush, much like this..

genericguy wrote: »

.. fcuk all you catholics.

Basically it adds nothing.

humanji

the_dark_side wrote: »

just looked it up....

"....A citizen's arrest occurs when a citizen detains a criminal and holds them until the police arrive and arrest the criminal. A citizen only can "arrest" a criminal if he witnesses the commission of the crime by the criminal. The crime must be an actual criminal offense, not a mere traffic offense or violation of an ordinance. Other terms for citizen's arrest include citizen's detention and private person arrest.
What are the Limitations of Citizen's Arrest?
A citizen may not use deadly or excessive force when detaining a criminal. Furthermore, law enforcement must agree with the citizen that a crime has occurred prior to the filing of any charges against the alleged criminal."

Sorry, I meant does an arrest have to occur before a certain amount of time goes by? For example if no one is arrested after 10 years then the case is closed.

the_dark_side

humanji wrote: »

Sorry, I meant does an arrest have to occur before a certain amount of time goes by? For example if no one is arrested after 10 years then the case is closed.

Im not sure of that, although I have to admit, the likelyhood of anyone having the neck to do it is another matter

PeterIanStaker

Ultravid wrote: »

Good background reading here for anyone interested in throwing out both baby and bathwater:

http://www.seattlecatholic.com/article_20020820_Keep_the_Faith_Change_the_Church.html

I also add that the RCC today has among the best, most robust child protection system in Ireland. Also the Church isn't finished, but is in need of constant purification. This is happening as we type.

And why would a Catholic continue to go to Mass? => http://www.chastitysf.com/q_whychurch.htm

I'm very much interested in throwing out baby and bathwater. And I still maintain that the organisation is finished, but not anytime soon. It will be gone in another perhaps generation or two.

Ultravid

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

I'm very much interested in throwing out baby and bathwater. And I still maintain that the organisation is finished, but not anytime soon. It will be gone in another perhaps generation or two.

I doubt that. Cultural Catholicism is finished in Ireland, that is for sure. But the Faith itself will live on, in a much smaller, purer, more authentic fashion than the shambolic hypocrisy which is now dying. That is very much to be welcomed in my view.

Mr. Incognito

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0315/abuse.html

Cardinal Brady rejects calls to resign
Monday, 15 March 2010 14:05
Cardinal Seán Brady has reiterated his determination not to resign in the wake of new information about the way in which he dealt with paedophile priest Brendan Smyth.

In an interview with RTÉ News this morning, Dr Brady said it was not a resigning matter and he rejected the suggestion that his silence had allowed Fr Smyth to continue to sexually assault children for a further two decades.

He also said he heard calls for him to stay on and deal with the matter of abuse.

Clerical child abuse victim Marie Collins has called for the remit of the Murphy Commission to be extended to every diocese in the country.

Speaking on RTÉ's News At One, Ms Collins said Cardinal Brady has lost his credibility.

She said the State needs to establish how many other abused children had to signs oaths of secrecy and how many other clerical abusers had been protected in this way.

Those comments were echoed by Colm O'Gorman, who said Cardinal Brady rose through the ranks in the Catholic Church while Smyth continued to rape and abuse children.

Also on Morning Ireland, Fr Kevin Hegarty, the first priest to publicly challenge the bishops' handling of clerical sexual abuse, said Cardinal Brady should reflect on his position.

Speaking on Today with Pat Kenny, Monsignor Maurice Dooley, former Professor of Canon Law, said Cardinal Brady had no obligation to report anything to gardaí.

At the weekend, Dr Brady confirmed that he was present in 1975 when two young victims of the late Fr Brendan Smyth were asked to sign an oath of secrecy.

The Cardinal - then a part-time secretary to the then Bishop of Kilmore, the late Francis McKiernan - took notes during two meetings with children who he believed had been abused by Smyth.

The senior churchman said his actions in 1975 had been part of a process that removed the shamed cleric's licence to act as a priest. He maintained that Smyth's Norbertine Order was otherwise responsible for him.

Fr Brendan Smyth later admitted a litany of sex attacks on around 90 children over a 40-year period and was sent to prison - where he died in 1997.

Yesterday, Cardinal Brady rejected claims that he had failed to act and said he was not the designated person responsible for contacting the relevant statutory authorities.

This Man should b in JAIL.

He knew that children were being abused- he took notes of the meetings and the church made them sign secrecy agreements.

Now he rejects that he was the person responsible to report it.

THIS MAN IS A CARDINAL. A supposed Bastion of Morality.

It makes me sick.

DrumSteve

I know someone has probably said it there anything the catholic church doesn't pervert?

Elenxor

[QUOTE=Ultravid;64919378

"I also add that the RCC today has among the best, most robust child protection system in Ireland. Also the Church isn't finished, but is in need of constant purification."

Why would does the RCC need these "robust child protection systems"

It's all too little...too late my friend.

Blackhorse Slim

Ultravid wrote: »

I also add that the RCC today has among the best, most robust peadophile protection system in Ireland.

FYP

PeterIanStaker

Ultravid wrote: »

I doubt that. Cultural Catholicism is finished in Ireland, that is for sure. But the Faith itself will live on, in a much smaller, purer, more authentic fashion than the shambolic hypocrisy which is now dying. That is very much to be welcomed in my view.

If it were to live on, it would need laymen and women in charge, women priests, an end to clerical celibacy, and most importantly, should not be allowed within a country mile of a school or the Irish Constitution.

Ultravid

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

If it were to live on, it would need laymen and women in charge, women priests, an end to clerical celibacy, and most importantly, should not be allowed within a country mile of a school or the Irish Constitution.

If any one saith that in the Catholic Church there is not a hierarchy instituted by divine ordination, consisting of bishops, priests, and ministers; let him be anathema. (Council of Trent, Session XXIII, De Ordine, canon 6)

The Church cannot ordain women: that can't and won't happen. The Church is Divinely instituted as a hierarchical Church, that is unchangeable. Celibacy is a discipline, but I can't see that changing, nor would I welcome any change. What we need in the Church is faithfulness and loyalty to Christ. It was dissent which caused all these bad things to happen.

PeterIanStaker

So you will leave it the same as it is, and expect it to change?

CokaColumbo

genericguy wrote: »

at this stage, i have no respect for anyone who goes to mass anymore. i used to think hey, live and let live, but it has gotten to the stage where anyone who attends, and gives them money is a fcuking idiot. they raped you, they raped your kids, and they blame it on satan. and then they asked for you to donate the money to pay the legal bills. and you still go, and you still give it to them. fcuk all you catholics.

No. 1) There are two collections during mass. One is for the priests of the parish, and one is for the sick and poor of the parish. The second collection is the reason why the Catholic church is the biggest charity in the world.

No. 2) Although the church is the last place any abuse should occur, it is not fair to condemn all Catholics and all priests in general for what has been committed by a small number of lay people and clergy. Do not forget that the vast majority of abuse is committed within the home, by ordinary men and women. Should we "f*ck" all parents? And "f*ck" all uncles and aunts? hmmm?

No. 3) Its the government, not the Church, that is paying for most of the damages to abuse victims.

prinz wrote: »

Why what did I do? I haven't abused anyone, raped anyone, I haven't excused anyone for the crimes they have committed, I fully support prison sentences for anyone who was involved directly or was involved in the cover up.

By the by the majority of abuse takes place in the home.. by parents and family members. **** all you parents, and grandparents, and children, and uncles, and aunts and cousins....

Spot on.

Winty

Thanks to all for some great comments

I think we covered some great points but we are running away.
Can I ask the Mod’s to add a poll to sum up today’s points

Vote Yes for Sean Brady to be charged with preventing the course of justice

Vote No as since 1975 the RCC have move on and are trying to put things right

Ultravid

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

So you will leave it the same as it is, and expect it to change?

I have come to set the earth on fire, and how I wish it were already blazing! There is a baptism with which I must be baptized, and how great is my anguish until it is accomplished!
- Luke 12

I mentioned purification, loyalty, faithfulness, and fidelity to Christ. That begins with me.

PeterIanStaker

Winty wrote: »

Thanks to all for some great comments

I think we covered some great points but we are running away.
Can I ask the Mod’s to add a poll to sum up today’s points

Vote Yes for Sean Brady to be charged with preventing the course of justice

Vote No as since 1975 the RCC have move on and are trying to put things right

Methinks it'll be a Yes, there will be a few token people, the well intentioned sort no doubt, giving it a No, but they're on the Lusitania (i.e, its sinking but the propellors are still running, hastening the demise)

ScumLord

CokaColumbo wrote: »

No. 1) There are two collections during mass. One is for the priests of the parish, and one is for the sick and poor of the parish. The second collection is the reason why the Catholic church is the biggest charity in the world.

No. 2) Although the church is the last place any abuse should occur, it is not fair to condemn all Catholics and all priests in general for what has been committed by a small number of lay people and clergy. Do not forget that the vast majority of abuse is committed within the home, by ordinary men and women. Should we "f*ck" all parents? And "f*ck" all uncles and aunts? hmmm?

Those families are separate individual cases, that's like saying most abuse is committed by humans lets lock all humans up or all dogs hate cats, racists.

The Catholic church is a well established organisation that spewed morals on us, condemned and destroyed peoples lives all while carrying out and hiding their own sins. They've abused the power people gave to them and they've been a corrupting influence on the human race for far to long.

It doesn't matter now anyway, like I said it's a sinking ship, do Catholics honestly believe the next generation will fall for the same lies they did? The Catholic church is like something out a fairy tail horror story and in the future all it will be in a distant and shameful memory.

Winty

Ultravid wrote: »

I have come to set the earth on fire, and how I wish it were already blazing! There is a baptism with which I must be baptized, and how great is my anguish until it is accomplished!
- Luke 12

I mentioned purification, loyalty, faithfulness, and fidelity to Christ. That begins with me.

Now its just getting wierd

This started off about Brady breaking the law nothing to do with Luke aged 12

Winty

Sorry I was late adding the poll, please vote

Thanks to the Mod's

orourkeda

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Yes.

The law should be changed so that anybody. Regardless of who you are, that is aware of any child abuse, or has child abuse reported to them, must report it. Otherwise they are as guilty as the person who carried it out.

Take away any ambiguity, any privileges and any decision making by people who are not trained to make those decisions.

Just a quick question here.

How is it possible to be guilty of a crime you did not commit? It'll be interesting to hear the logic.

I'm not here to defend anyone but I'd very much like to hear why you think this is.

dvpower

Ultravid wrote: »

Cultural Catholicism is finished in Ireland, that is for sure. But the Faith itself will live on, in a much smaller, purer, more authentic fashion than the shambolic hypocrisy which is now dying. That is very much to be welcomed in my view.

And not before time.
Now, can we have our health and education systems back?

TheZohanS

orourkeda wrote: »

Just a quick question here.

How is it possible to be guilty of a crime you did not commit? It'll be interesting to hear the logic.

I'm not here to defend anyone but I'd very much like to hear why you think this is.

Perverting the course of justice?

Ultravid

Winty wrote: »

Now its just getting wierd

This started off about Brady breaking the law nothing to do with Luke aged 12

Gospel of St Luke, chapter 12.:p

orourkeda

TheZohan wrote: »

Perverting the course of justice?

What if the victim doesnt want to press charges?

Isnt it their decision?

What about evidence?

hooradiation

Ultravid wrote: »

I doubt that. Cultural Catholicism is finished in Ireland, that is for sure. But the Faith itself will live on, in a much smaller, purer, more authentic fashion than the shambolic hypocrisy which is now dying. That is very much to be welcomed in my view.

Isn't this the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

dvpower

orourkeda wrote: »

What if the victim doesnt want to press charges?

Isnt it their decision?

What about evidence?

.

DOHC Children First Guidelines wrote:

Standard Reporting Procedure
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]If child abuse is suspected or alleged, the following steps should be taken by professionals and members of the public who come into contact with children:
[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial](i) a report should be made to the health board in person, by phone or in writing. Each health board has a duty social worker who is available eachday to meet with or talk on the telephone to persons wishing to report child protection concerns. (A list of contact numbers is available in Appendix 1); [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial](ii) it is generally most helpful if personal contact is made with the duty social worker by the person who first witnessed or suspected the alleged child abuse; [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial](iii) [/FONT][/FONT]in the event of an emergency or the non-availability of health board staff, a report may be made to An Garda Síochána at any Garda Station[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]

[/FONT][/FONT]

Mr. Incognito

How is it possible to be guilty of a crime you did not commit? It'll be interesting to hear the logic.

The church as an institution did not abuse these children.

However the church as an institution, protected and moved the priests. Made the victims sign confidentiality agreements when they complained to the church authorities. Refused to co-operate with investigations. Refuse to take responsibility ala Brady, even the Pope has refused to apologise recently but said it was a crime and would not acknowledge blame.

The church as an institution did not commit these crimes, but the culture of cover up and secrecy certainly helped these priest continue to abuse.

Winty

Ultravid wrote: »

Gospel of St Luke, chapter 12.:p

I am only interested in Brady being charged by an Irish Law Court not some magic book

prinz

ScumLord wrote: »

Those families are separate individual cases, that's like saying most abuse is committed by humans lets lock all humans up or all dogs hate cats, racists..

It's almost like saying all Catholics are to blame for child abuse..isn't it.:rolleyes:

dvpower

hooradiation wrote: »

Isn't this the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

Even the Pope isn't a Catholic now.:eek:

andreab

Perverting the cause of justcie is a crime and in these cases a very seriuos one. These sicko's were protected by the church and their crimes continued.

As a catholic who attends mass regularly I think it is about time that the heads of the church here become accountable for their neglect and criminal charges should be raised against them.

And it's not like the pope will tell him to resign, after all this weekend we found out that he is also guilty of the same offense.

He should step aside as well!

Mr. Incognito

No. 1) There are two collections during mass. One is for the priests of the parish, and one is for the sick and poor of the parish. The second collection is the reason why the Catholic church is the biggest charity in the world.

Says who? The Bill and Milenda Gates Foundation is the biggest charity in the world. One is for the priests and one for the sick and poor? Really? I thought we had hospitals and the dole these days.

No. 2) Although the church is the last place any abuse should occur, it is not fair to condemn all Catholics and all priests in general for what has been committed by a small number of lay people and clergy. Do not forget that the vast majority of abuse is committed within the home, by ordinary men and women. Should we "f*ck" all parents? And "f*ck" all uncles and aunts? hmmm?

This is a moot point. Statistically most abuse occurs in the home, yes. However when this abuse comes to light the perpertrator is not sent to stay with cousins with young children. They are reported to the police by family members. The difference is the Church RESPONSE to the abuse when it came to light and indeed is what this thread is about. We don't blame innocent priests. We blame church leaders that sought to bury and cover this up and have made clear that their loyalties lie with the church rather than the decent right rule of law.

No. 3) Its the government, not the Church, that is paying for most of the damages to abuse victims.

Why is this a positive thing??!! The church should have every asset it has sold off to pay these abuse victims. That would be justice, instead of my tax contributions.

sbsquarepants

CokaColumbo wrote: »

No. 1) There are two collections during mass. One is for the priests of the parish, and one is for the sick and poor of the parish. The second collection is the reason why the Catholic church is the biggest charity in the world.

No. 2) Although the church is the last place any abuse should occur, it is not fair to condemn all Catholics and all priests in general for what has been committed by a small number of lay people and clergy. Do not forget that the vast majority of abuse is committed within the home, by ordinary men and women. Should we "f*ck" all parents? And "f*ck" all uncles and aunts? hmmm?

No. 3) Its the government, not the Church, that is paying for most of the damages to abuse victims.



Spot on.

Did you actually think about any of that before you wrote it?

(1) The catholic church is obscenely wealthy, from these church colections one would assume. I visited the vatican only 2 months ago and it turned my stomach to see the wealth in the place, it's nothing short of disgusting.

(2) Abuse does of course occur in the home and in all other places, but when such abuse is exposed it is rarely if ever accompanied by a vast conspiracy of silence and hypochrisy. The catholic church is basically the worlds biggest paedophile ring. And yes, any uncle or father who abuses their kids or any kids should be f.ucked, preferably with a rusty chainsaw

(3) The government has no money but ours and i for one am disgusted at it being used as a dig out to the worlds largest paedophile ring. However the state were complicit in many cases and so should also pay, but only when every last art work etc has been hocked and the sick pervert bishops and cardinals are taking the f.ucking luas home from work to their s.hit hole bedsits, not crying poverty while being chauffer driven to their mansions.

ScumLord

prinz wrote: »

It's almost like saying all Catholics are to blame for child abuse..isn't it.:rolleyes:

Your right I am going a bit OTT, it's the same argument used against drug users being blamed for all drug related crime because they fund the criminals. I just don't under stand why anyone would want to continue being Catholic after hearing what happened, you don't need to follow that particular vain of Christianity there are other Catholic churches out there.

super_furry

You can look at the whole thing from a number of view points, but what it boils down to is the fact that the most senior member of the Catholic Church knew that Brendan Smyth was a child mollester. He was also present at a meeting where two of Smyth's victims were coercerced into signing an 'oath of silence', aimed at covering Smyth's crimes.

Smyth would go on to rape, abuse and mollest an estimated 90 children and Sean Brady does not believe that his silence and his role in covering up Smyth's crimes, or his failure to lift a finger to help prevent Smyth's abuse, are serious enough to warrant his resignation.

orourkeda

dvpower wrote: »

.
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]

[/FONT][/FONT]

I wasnt aware of that. How long has this system been in place and how many members of the public had their suspicons of clerical child abuse that didnt report it.

If this isnt adhered to what sanctions are there?

If the reports that Barry Andrews is sitting is anything on then this system isnt working either

orourkeda

super_furry wrote: »

You can look at the whole thing from a number of view points, but what it boils down to is the fact that the most senior member of the Catholic Church knew that Brendan Smyth was a child mollester. He was also present at a meeting where two of Smyth's victims were coercerced into signing an 'oath of silence', aimed at covering Smyth's crimes.

Smyth would go on to rape, abuse and mollest an estimated 90 children and Sean Brady does not believe that his silence and his role in covering up Smyth's crimes, or his failure to lift a finger to help prevent Smyth's abuse, are serious enough to warrant his resignation.

While all that may be true, if he feels that it doesnt merit his resignation how can we expect anythinglike charges to arise