The Clerical Child Abuse Thread (merged)

joseph brand

The Brigadier wrote: »

Indeed - there is something in the fact that clerical abuse was far more of a problem in Ireland than anywhere else in the world.

I think every Priest involved should be punished to the full extent of the law. They should also all be laicised. I make no excuses for any of the monsters involved or the people involved in the cover up.

As a country though, Ireland needs to take some responsibility as well. This isn't something you can just blame on the Catholic Church.

In other countries abuse within the Catholic Church has been less prevalent than in other faiths or within certain segments of the secular world.

I'm sure we'll find out in decades to come to what extent catholic priests raped/ are raping children in Third World countries.

I believe it would be easier to 'get away with' in such poor countries where folks have no education or rights.

The Brigadier

dclane wrote: »

That's your opinion. Being a good catholic doesn't start or end with going to mass. Indeed I know a good few mass going Catholics who are nasty people. also, the priests that raped, sodomized and sexually abused children went to mass and also said mass, so these people are real Catholics because they go to mass?

I know it doesn't start or end with going to Mass. As a Catholic though you have to go to Mass every Sunday. It is an obligation - not a choice.

Going to Mass in no way affirms or rejects the actions of men on Earth.

dclane wrote: »

No, instead I voted for who I felt would make Ireland a better place. I also work and pay my taxes and have a democratic say in elections. When was the last time the Roman Catholic church held an election which involved its followers?

You seem to have a misunderstanding of what the Church is. To be honest you sound more like a Protestant than a Catholic.

The Brigadier

joseph brand wrote: »

I'm sure we'll find out in decades to come to what extent catholic priests raped/ are raping children in Third World countries.

I believe it would be easier to 'get away with' in such poor countries where folks have no education or rights.

What about the UK or the US where incidents of abuse within the clergy are lower than in Ireland?

MrPudding

Sonics2k wrote: »

I'm not entirely sure what your second sentence is supposed to mean.

Are you saying he can be forgiven for his actions (or lack of) because immoral decisions are made by others? Or are you saying something else?

Pure whatabouttery, yet again. it is all they have.

MrP

PDN

The Brigadier wrote: »

What about the UK or the US where incidents of abuse within the clergy are lower than in Ireland?

In the US the incidents were still sufficient to cause 8 dioceses to file for bankruptcy and for the Church to pay out over $1 billion so far to victims.

gent9662

The Brigadier wrote: »

What about the UK or the US where incidents of abuse within the clergy are lower than in Ireland?

Hello? Is the Roman Catholic church the main religion in these countries?
Just in case you don't know the answer, its No.

In some African countries it is there for statement holds from OP.

The Brigadier

PDN wrote: »

In the US the incidents were still sufficient to cause 8 dioceses to file for bankruptcy and for the Church to pay out over $1 billion so far to victims.

I am not trying to compare the sizes of settlements between the US and Ireland. Both countries have different legal systems and awards in America are much higher across the board.

What I am talking about is the higher percentage of priests involved in abuse in Ireland compared to the UK and the US. I don't think a single case of abuse is excusable in ANY way at all. I just think Ireland as a country needs to acknowledge the part it has played. And that is all of Ireland - not just the Catholics.

The Brigadier

dclane wrote: »

Hello? Is the Roman Catholic church the main religion in these countries?
Just in case you don't know the answer, its No.

In some African countries it is there for statement holds from OP.

It is in Italy - and guess what - a lower percentage of priests involved in abuse.

Seriously - trying to place all the blame at the feet of the Church is just laughable.

gent9662

The Brigadier wrote: »

It is in Italy - and guess what - a lower percentage of priests involved in abuse.

Seriously - trying to place all the blame at the feet of the Church is just laughable.

You have very conveniently moved continent and country again.

Have a read of this from the Guardian when you have a chance...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/28/pope-paedophile-priests-italy

Sergio Cavaliere, an Italian lawyer who has documented 130 cases of clerical paedophilia, also believes that the Vatican's backyard could follow Ireland, the United States and Germany in producing a wave of abuse revelations. "The cases I have found are just the tip of the iceberg given the reluctance of many victims to come forward until now," said Cavaliere. "And in no single case did the local bishop alert police to the suspected abuse."

Where in the world do you want to go next?

gent9662

The Brigadier wrote: »

It is in Italy - and guess what - a lower percentage of priests involved in abuse.

Seriously - trying to place all the blame at the feet of the Church is just laughable.

I am starting to think that you are trolling at this stage, given the ridiculous above statement and the important thread you are posting in.

Plowman

This post has been deleted.

The Brigadier

Interesting

Happyman42

I shudder to think what abuses will emerge when African countries shake off their fear of Rome like the brave people here and speak up.
I have resigned myself to listening to these stories being dragged out of the Vatican and the hierarchy for the rest of my life and I hope I have a good while left to live.
I console myself with the thought that every personal tale of horror and ruined lives loosens their grip bit by bit.

Keylem

The Brigadier wrote: »

I am not trying to compare the sizes of settlements between the US and Ireland. Both countries have different legal systems and awards in America are much higher across the board.

In America SNAP made millions and millions out of alleged clerical abuse cases. Some of the victims claimed to have repressed memories. SNAP has been exposed by Bill Donoghue.

http://www.opusbono.org/news/SnapExposed.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf1WDIyHIKQ

gent9662

Why is it that Brady interviewed the 11 year old Boland boy outside of his fathers presence about his accusation? Furthermore Brady compiled the answers. Then the boy was asked about his own behaviour and also "Did you ever do any of this before with another boy?" "Did you have an erection?" "Did seed come out of your body?"
1. What in the hell were 3 priests doing asking a young defenceless 11 year old these questions without his parents present? The Gardaí wouldnt even do that back then.

2. No lawyer present and when the Boland boy gave them names, addresses of other boys/girls this was ignored.

3. Furthermore he was made hold a bible and told to never speak to anyone about what had happened to him but only to authorised priests.

To be honest, if I was the head of an organisation in Ireland and was party to the above, my conscience would have me step down, why can't Brady do the same? What is it that's so innate about the RCC that it cannot rectify the situation and re-establish (from the ground up) a new, truthful, moral church?

Hermy

dclane wrote: »

...why can't Brady do the same?...

Because Brady believes he's done nothing wrong.

prinz

dclane wrote: »

... why can't Brady do the same?

A serious ego problem.

Happyman42

Keylem wrote: »

In America SNAP made millions and millions out of alleged clerical abuse cases. Some of the victims claimed to have repressed memories. SNAP has been exposed by Bill Donoghue.

http://www.opusbono.org/news/SnapExposed.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf1WDIyHIKQ

What significance does that have other than further enhancing the myopic cultishness of the Roman abomination?

ironingbored

The Brigadier wrote: »

It is in Italy - and guess what - a lower percentage of priests involved in abuse.

Seriously - trying to place all the blame at the feet of the Church is just laughable.

Italy has (has had) much more stringent laws governing reporting crimes (a magistrate is obliged by law to investigate any suggestion of wrongdoing).

Also, Italy never had the same deference towards the Catholic Church and schools since 1945 are secular.

The same climate does (did) not exist in Italy as existed in Ireland making it less likely for abuse to be covered up.

Having said that:

http://www.corriere.it/cronache/12_maggio_03/pedofilia-condannato-don-riccardo-seppia-parroco-sestri-ponente_95922bbe-9511-11e1-ad93-f55072257a20.shtml

9 years for attempted rape of a minor

marienbad

ISAW wrote: »

the Naziism line was already dealt with above;


We are here discussing a particular case of a boy from Belfast. He was not ignored since if he was a statement would not have been taken by Brady.



And this relates to Brady??? How???




Yes apparently he did.
But
1. It happened in Belfast i believe since the girl was a sister of the Belfast boy. so the rape law in the Republic would not apply and you are back into criminality juristictional problems. 2. Brady was not aware of the girl and that happened after he left Ireland



And according to 1975 law and procedures what would "properly" be?


So you suggest people should disregard the law of the land and put church morals ahead of actual local legal matters? I thought that was what you were complaining about?


What are you suggesting he did that was
1. illegal?
2. Immoral

If you cant supply an answer to 1 then you cant suggest he be charged with anything.

ISAW if you really believe any of the above and your other posts are of value in this discussion the you have a serious problem in perception.

Informers/no telephones/not a crime/ different jurisdictions/ etc - can you be serious in in positing these as having any relevance in choosing the correct course of action ?

You disagree with eveything even when it makes no difference as if your objective is just obfuscation , so let me ask you

Do you think Cardinal Brady did the right thing ?

Chazz Michael Michaels

Strangely, this is all part of God's plan. I'm sure it will make sense once he explains it.

FergusODowd

The fact is, at the very least Brady could have warned the parents of the other boys, the victims said were also at risk, to be very careful. He didn't bother, but yet he thought it was ok to interview these boys without warning their parents to be careful about smyth.

Brady had the opportunity time and time again in recent years to do the decent thing, admit he made a complete mistake, step down, ask other tainted cardinals and bishops to do the same, and try to make amends, and call for a renewal of the church. He hasn't.

Why has Rome not sacked Brady at this stage ? Does Rome not have the power to do so ?

Delirium

gimmebroadband wrote: »

I thought Brady offered to resign two years ago when the news broke out then........?

Not according a spokesperson for the Cardinal

Cardinal Seán Brady did not offer to resign when allegations of his role in a secret inquiry into abuse first broke two years ago, the Catholic Church has said.

“No such offer of resignation was made,” the cardinal’s spokesman said.

FergusODowd

gimmebroadband wrote: »

I thought Brady offered to resign two years ago when the news broke out then........?

'Offered' is a wealsel term.

Rome may not have been fully aware of Brady's antics and poor judgement, now they are, why has he not "offered" to resign again or better still been sacked ?

Does anyone know if Rome have the power to remove an Archbishop without their consent ? Surely they do ?

Surely Brady has been proved guilty beyond all reasonable doubt at this stage ?

Surely its time Catholics marched in their thousands to Armagh and demand he leaves ?

gimmebroadband

koth wrote: »

Not according a spokesperson for the Cardinal

I saw it today in the INDO that he did, I should have guessed that the media would stretch the truth a little.

I had deleted the post when I saw your reply!

FergusODowd

gimmebroadband wrote: »

I saw it today in the INDO that he did, I should have guessed that the media would stretch the truth a little.

The indo ? What a propaganda rag. No wonder the Irish Golden circle are fighting with one another to control it.

Delirium

gimmebroadband wrote: »

I saw it today in the INDO that he did, I should have guessed that the media would stretch the truth a little.

I had deleted the post when I saw your reply!

No bother:) I'd heard/read rumours about that offer and your post reminded me to do a check with some papers online to see if there was any meat to the story.

ironingbored

@rtenews
Aoife Kavanagh, the reporter on the Mission to Prey programme which libelled Fr Kevin Reynolds, has resigned from RTÉ.

I wonder if Cardinal Brady has taken note. Not likely.

casey junior

The Brigadier wrote: »

You are a Catholic in name only.

Sorreee, but isn't that what the vast majority are?

The Brigadier

dclane wrote: »

Hello? Is the Roman Catholic church the main religion in these countries?
Just in case you don't know the answer, its No.

In some African countries it is there for statement holds from OP.

The clerical abuse is worse in Ireland than anywhere else in the world - take you pick of anywhere else to compare.