Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
The Clerical Child Abuse Thread (merged)
Options
Comments
-
-
-
ironingbored wrote: »Italy has (has had) much more stringent laws governing reporting crimes (a magistrate is obliged by law to investigate any suggestion of wrongdoing).
Also, Italy never had the same deference towards the Catholic Church and schools since 1945 are secular.
The same climate does (did) not exist in Italy as existed in Ireland making it less likely for abuse to be covered up.
I can't accept that Ireland having gained independence would allow itself to be ruled against its will so quickly.
I just think we as a country need to accept some of the blame and show a little bit of integrity.0 -
Never really comment on this stuff (and don't generally follow it) but a figure in an article in the IT caught my eye. This guy Smyth was at this from 1944 to 1989.
Nearly half a century.
Shocking and genuinely hard to fathom what kind of stupid culture of deference/moral stupidity fostered this.
Reminded me why i haven't bothered with religion for a long time.
Indefensible.0 -
The Brigadier wrote: »
You are some piece of work, I have argued all of your points and this is the best you come back with?
Religion is still valued in Ireland by the many, it's the RCC that is the problem and also the likes of you defending them.
Now back in your box.0 -
Advertisement
-
The Roman Catholic Church listens to noboby. It feels that it is above censure. Unfortunately for a business like this the only way it will feel it necessary to respond is if its subscribers stop paying.
This country coined a phrase that started with an unfortunate Captain Boycott. Until the Church is willing to actually listen, to actually respond to societal change and to borrow a phrase from the American Revolution, no taxation without representation. I would suggest that people stop paying tithes, stop paying monies at mass, stop filling those little envelopes that the church wants people to fill.
Maybe then, when the cash flow is non-existent in Ireland, the church will listen.
SD0 -
You are some piece of work, I have argued all of your points and this is the best you come back with?
Religion is still valued in Ireland by the many, it's the RCC that is the problem and also the likes of you defending them.
Now back in your box.
Please don't try to put people in a 'box' dclane, or you would lose any kind of support - The truth is that people 'still' see themselves as Catholic, but that doesn't mean that they have decided to pass judgement one way or the other like so many are quick to do, Irish are not quite as daft as one might first think - people are disheartened, but not completely without faith, or don't understand their faith -
In many cases they are just 'lazy' - like me, I was 'lazy' for so long, I was agnostic in Uni, amid a busy life, but I really enjoyed to my surprise those precious few minutes a week on Sundays eventually when I actually learned the faith........no pressure, I 'wanted' to know. I am here for those others who will inevitably 'want' to investigate and know too in my Parish, like very many others..
So, you can talk RCC and predictions - but that's all you are doing, one way or the other, it doesn't really matter to those with any kind of faith - do your worst - we're on the same side, but I am Catholic and Irish and I will not make excuses for it.0 -
All bitching aside, this is a no brainer, whatever you believe in.
Brady is and was at the time a human, not a tape recorder.
He heard what went on from the horses mouth, didn't even have the decency to tell the kids folks and allowed the abuse to continue.
He's disgusting, he needs to be arrested, charged and brought to justice for his inadequacy to stop what was obviously going to happen. He gave the nod to smyth to continue abusing children.
Shame on him. It's beyond me how he knew the capabilities of smyth and felt it was ok for the predator to continue doing what he did.
<snip>0 -
I think you should re-read that post.
The IRA would not have had an issue with Brady or anyone reporting abuse against a minor to the minor's parents.
You speak for the IRA do you?
Apparently even in the last year the IRA had a problem with people reporting members who killed someone in BelfastThree years after the 33-year-old father of two was savagely beaten and stabbed to death outside a Belfast bar, the McCartneys said they were taking the case because there was still "a wall of silence" that was protecting at least 10 key suspects
And that was in 2008 not 1974/5
Incidentally while our atheist Taniste Eamon Gilmore is using his state privileged protecting him from defamation to demand Brady resign no media is asking what he was doing in 1974/5????
You are maybe not aware of his links to Official Sinn Fein at the time
Is anyone asking him like Cardinal Brady to account for his links in 1974 or who he told about the following?
Killings perpetrated by the Official IRA just prior and whilst Éamon Gilmore was a member of the Officials political movement (Sinn Féin/Official Sinn Fén/Sinn Féin The Workers Party/The Workers Party) include:
Owen Devine, 23-year-old,
shot McClure Street, off Ormeau Road, Belfast 26th August, 1973;
Seamus Larkin, 34-year-old,
shot Flagstaff, near Killeen, Co. Armagh 25th September, 1973;
Cecilia Byrne, 51-year-old,
bombed Limavady Road, Derry 11th January, 1974;
John Dunn, 46-year-old,
bombed Limavady Road, Derry 11th January, 1974;
Christopher Daly, 43-year-old,
shot off Balholm Drive, Ardoyne, Belfast 13th January, 1974;
Sean McAstocker, 28-year-old,
shot Lagan Street, Markets, Belfast 31st March, 1974;
Paul Tinnelly, 34-year-old,
shot The Square, Rostrevor, Co. Down 2nd June, 1974;
Maura Lavery, 66-year-old,
shot Jamaica Street, Ardoyne, Belfast 5th August, 1974;
Jeremiah ‘Jerry’ O’Connor, 60-year-old,
shot Upper Abbeygate Street, Galway 15th August, 1974;
Private Philip Drake, 20-year-old,
shot Drumbeg, Craigavon, Co. Armagh 26th August, 1974;
Hugh Ferguson, 19-year-old,
shot Whiterock Drive, Ballymurphy, Belfast 20th February, 1975
Danny Loughran, 20-year-old,
shot Albert Street, Lower Falls, Belfast 5th April, 1975;
Larry White, 26-year-old,
shot Mount Eden Road, Cork 10th June, 1975;
Martin McMenamy, 17-year-old,
shot New Lodge, Belfast 8th August, 1975;
Sean McNamee, 24-year-old,
shot Macweld Engineering, Whiterock, Belfast 10th October, 1975;
William ‘Billy’ Wright, 35-year-old,
shot Cabra Road, Cabra, Dublin 19th October, 1975;
Seamus McCusker, 40-year-old,
shot New Lodge Road, Belfast 31st October, 1975;
Owen McVeigh, 28-year-old,
shot Falls Road, Belfast 11th November, 1975;
Michael Duggan, 31-year-old,
shot Hawthorne Street, Belfast 12th November, 1975;
Paul Best, 19-year-old,
shot Andersonstown, Belfast 18th February, 1976;
Daniel Cowan, 30-year-old,
Riverdale Park East, Andersonstown, Belfast 27th July, 1977;
Seamus Costello, 38-year-old,
shot Northbrook Ave., off North Strand, Dublin 5th October, 1977;
Hugh O’Halloran, 28-year-old,
beaten Moyard Park, Ballymurphy, Belfast 10th September, 1979;
Éamon Kerr, 33-year-old,
shot Cape Street, Lower Falls, Belfast 11th March 1983;
Éamon Gilmore left The Workers Party when it split to form Democratic Left in 1992 before Democratic Left merged with the Labour Party in 1999. It should be noted that Éamon Gilmore expressed considerable reluctance on RTÉ’s 'Marian Finucane Show' of the 2nd October, 2010 to deal with his party membership of Sinn Féin/Official Sinn Féin/Sinn Féin The Workers Party.
Is anyone demanding his explanation or his resignation as deputy leader of the government?0 -
You don't need something to be a law in order to know its the right thing to do.
And people say we atheists have no morals......
People are saying he should be charged with a crime.
i am asking WHAT crime?celticcrash wrote: »Sean Brady to say that he didn't realise the effect it would have on the children.
He is a lying scumbag. Who helped one of the worst child rapists to carry on his crimes.
He should be prosucuted for aiding and abetting a monster who raped children.
sorry but "aiding and abbetting a monster" isnt a crime on the boks
And saying he is a "lying scumbag" is defamation.
Police informants and the attitudes towards them have nothing to do with the issue of informing parents that their child was being violated. To use the word 'inform' to pretend that a connection exists is certainly an example of specious verbal gymnastics.
...
Really? I wonder what that bakelite object was in our hallway that had numbers on the dial.
i have been quite clear
the only new evidence Mc Kintrye brought in his BBC programme is Brady dint inform the parents of the Belfact Boy.
He needs to say why he didnt.
Pending that I am only offering some as to why he might not have.
Many people in Belfast were working class and didnt have phones.
A phone call isnt the type of way this thing shoulf be told to parents.
A garda might not have informed them if the DPP sait it was not a case which they coulfd take.
There was a culture of silence which lasted right up to the present so even if the parents were told they might not believe it or might not do anything do anything or if they did they might be shunned by the Republican element of society.
Yes Brady or someone should have informed them in 1974.
Is that a resigining matter in 2012 i dont know. i dont think so.
Is Gilmore's links the the IRA a resigining matter?
Is Gerry Adams links to the IRA a resigning matter?Please try reading my posts before making untrue allegations about what I am suggesting.
...
That is manifestly not true. You posted: "the only difference is that Brady did not inform a Belfast child's parents about that child being abused by Smyth. Informing was not looked up to in Belfast at the time."
lease read what I stated since that message
Yes if the parents were informed and they decided to go to the RUC they might well be shunned by the Republican element of society. i doubt they would go out in public saying "but our son was molested" when people start gossiping that they were seen talking to the RUC.
Both280special wrote: »Have you got some sort of mental block with regards to the 1970s?? Were you alive back then? Did you live in Ireland, either north or south , back then?I lived in Belfast up to 1975...we had a phone....I moved south....we had a phone....My relations in rural parts of Counties Tyrone, Armagh, Antrim and Derry all had phones, so did my relatives in rural parts of Counties Donegal,Roscommon, Meath...
did you live in a working class area?
Have you any information on number of phones in Ireland in that time?
I am aware of working class areas in dublin up to the 1990 and before mobile phones.
If you were looking for people you called the local phone box and a kid n the street would go to their house and ask you to wait or you or them to call back.And yes we could make cross border calls too .....in this case,so what IF they were monitored ???? what is the relevance of your point...if you have one !
Calling someone by phone to tell them their child is being abused isnt a proper protocall as far as I am concerned.
I would nto like MI5 knowing any personal information about my family. they could easily use it to blackmail people into doing things for them.Even if, and that is one hell of a big IF, he couldnt contact them by phone any DECENT person would have gone out of their way to ensure that parents were warned as to what was going on. Or was he unable to drive a car or arrange for someone else to drive him??
So any Gardai who heard of Smyth should also have driven north and told the parents?
I have been clear someone in my opinion should have informed the parents.
But even if we find out someone else did inform them i cant see how that makes any huge changed to the case and I dont think people should go after the parents if the parents didnt want to take it to law. And this is apparently what happened with the other boy for which Brady tool the notes. they were informed and were in the Republic and they decided
not to prosecute.What dont you understand about normal decent behaviour?
are you suggesting i am indecent?jonniebgood1 wrote: »I do. My opinion is that the parents should have been informed, whether by phone or in person is not relevant.
You disagree?
I disagree yes.
I think they should have been informed
I certainly do not think it should have been by phone.
I dont think Brady had to inform them himself.
nd we dont know yet if any else did inform them -just that Brady didnt.0 -
Advertisement
-
There is much heated debate on this at the moment but I do not believe the spin currently portrayed that Brady, a highly skilled Canon laywer in his late 30s, was just a note taker.
It is fair to say that the church would not have promoted him through the top ranks of the organisation if he did speak out at the time, or followed it up in the years after.
Should he resign? Personally I couldn't care less as I have little or no respect left for the organisation.
I have friends that are priests and are fantastic at their vocations. It's just a shame that the powers in the organisation are more interested in prioritising it's image than doing what's right.0 -
280special wrote: »And as for the argument , Re the IRA ,which has been made here, and strangely enough on whinging Joe's programme as well, you can be sure of one thing...they would never have targeted someone who went to the police to report child abuse.
We know that senior Sinn fein or IRA figures like Gerry Adams didnt report child abuse and the IRA didnt do anything abut it either. We know the IRA even up to recently maintained a culture of silence against people being brought before the law.It was not a suspected theft. It was a series of child rapes. If I was a garda and had seen what Brady saw, I would have made sure I knew what was done in follow-up. If I didn't, then when I became Garda Commissioner and the facts came out, I would expect I would have to resign. Especially when I knew the rapist had been allowed to continue his abuse for many years afterwards.
We know eamon gilmore had connections with Ofiicial sinn Fein who killed people.
why then dont you call for him to resign?How much more should we expect from those claiming to be shepherds of the flock?
Brady was not a bishop in 1974. If he was in charge of a diocese Smyth was in at that time then yes he is responsible.Nonsense. He was not a junior. Of the three men in collars sent to interrogate and silence Brendan Boland, he was the most qualified in canon law.
He WAS a junior. the person in charge is a person of bishop rank i.e the local bishop or abbnot or a person standing in for a bishop with "ordinary power" in that area.
which are?Furthermore, there are still many unanswered questions about his involvement:More nonsense!
Most of the rest of us would have, at the very least, made sure that the parents were informed, if not the authorities. We would not have allowed (what was then an alleged) victim to undergo the type of questions that these boys were subjected to.
that isnt true. My father was in the Gardai; i suffered tratment at school i never told him about. I aws also abused by a woman who was a "family friend" used to live nearby and gave me a lift to school. After I decided not to travel with her and got a bicycle shre used to come to the school and puncture it with a nail file, sometimes two or three punctures per wheel. she used to steal cash from my parents. My father didnt believe much if it till he was approached by a friend in Special Branch where he served in the seventies. they were under cover watching a nearby house and had got her on film with the bike. He couldnt do anything abot that without blowing their cover. He didnt bother setting the woman up for theft by using traceable money we just broke off all links to her. she used to arrive uninvited with her kids and stay with us for a week on holidays. She subsequently followed us to where we holidayed and rented a house nearby. Many locals thought she was still a friend of the family; Even years later a local shop keeper approacjed ly father about shoplifting only to be told we had nothing to do with her for some time. He was a local councillor and later Mayor and he didnt inform the Gardai about it.There were means to deal with abusers. As an example, Fergus Finlay has revealed his own abuse in 1961 at the hands of a member of a religious order. His father ensured that it was never repeated to either Finlay or other children.
did his father presecute?
I dont see anyone saying Finlays father should have been tried for obstructing justice or accessory?No decent person would of done what he did.
So do you know no decent person or just all decent people?
Clearly parents gardai and others also knew about these things and did not go to the Gardai.You cannot claim moral high ground, or claim to be leaders of a flock, and then allow such heinous acts to go unpunished, purely for the sake of furthering your own career.
True.
1. Brady was not in charge of any "flock" parish or diocese at the time
2. You have no evidence Brady was concealing anything to further a career.0 -
joseph brand wrote: »I'm sure we'll find out in decades to come to what extent catholic priests raped/ are raping children in Third World countries.
I believe it would be easier to 'get away with' in such poor countries where folks have no education or rights.
Look up "Argument from ignorance.3 hey mauybe space aliend and unicorns did it and we just dont know about that yet?The Brigadier wrote: »What about the UK or the US where incidents of abuse within the clergy are lower than in Ireland?
I dont think they are. i think certain cultural characteristics are ther for ireland authoritarianism for example. This isnt anything to do with the church. Cor example non church authoritarian cultures also might have abuse and deal with it in a similar manner e.g. non church schools. shakeshaft has looked into this in the Us for exapmle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charol_Shakeshaft
Jenkins has also done similar work
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_JenkinsThe Brigadier wrote: »What I am talking about is the higher percentage of priests involved in abuse in Ireland compared to the UK and the US. I don't think a single case of abuse is excusable in ANY way at all. I just think Ireland as a country needs to acknowledge the part it has played. And that is all of Ireland - not just the Catholics.
i dont thinkthe percentage in Ireland was higher in any comparable sense. I am aware ther were four or five Irish clerics who had huge numbers of victims e.g. more than a hundere.
But over a century the numbers of pedophile rapists were in the dozens at most; Yes even one is wrong but outside the priesthood there were thousands of them at least.
In any case the percentage of abusere who were priests is less than one percent or around that figure at tis highest level whether in the US UK or Ireland. Jenkins suggest non catholic clerical levels are higher and shakeshaft suggests non clerical levels dwarf both the roman Catholic and even higher non roman catholic clerics.Happyman42 wrote: »I shudder to think what abuses will emerge when African countries shake off their fear of Rome like the brave people here and speak up.
I shudder to think what you will do when you find out what argument from ignorance is?I have resigned myself to listening to these stories being dragged out of the Vatican and the hierarchy for the rest of my life and I hope I have a good while left to live.
Great; since you clailm to be an expert Maybe you can list five or so cases where you claim the Vatican covered up abuse.
Note that is FIVE in millions of priests. Ill bet you cant produce them. But according to yu the Vatican much be covering up hundreds of abusers?I console myself with the thought that every personal tale of horror and ruined lives loosens their grip bit by bit.
Well g on then. Produce five such cases and loosen their grip.
then we might begin to believe there are loads of Vatican cover ups.
But you havent supplied one!
youhave claimed them though.Why is it that Brady interviewed the 11 year old Boland boy outside of his fathers presence about his accusation? Furthermore Brady compiled the answers.
...
3. Furthermore he was made hold a bible and told to never speak to anyone about what had happened to him but only to authorised priests.
Not true! He was sworn not to discuss the enquiry and there were reasons for that.
He was not prevented from reporting it to the police.To be honest, if I was the head of an organisation in Ireland and was party to the above, my conscience would have me step down, why can't Brady do the same?
apparently Brady isnt you and your moral caliber is better than his in your opinion.
why doent gilmore step down as Taniste?
Was he party to or aware of OIRA operations or membership?ISAW if you really believe any of the above and your other posts are of value in this discussion the you have a serious problem in perception.
Informers/no telephones/not a crime/ different jurisdictions/ etc - can you be serious in in positing these as having any relevance in choosing the correct course of action ?
I didnt raise the issue of Brady only had to lift the phone!Do you think Cardinal Brady did the right thing ?
Put in that position at that time and excluding the telling the parents of the Belfast boy i could not say he did anything that I would think anyone else would have done.
On the informing the parents issue he DID inform the parents in the South. He or someone should have informed the parents in Belfast. If nobody did then that was not the right thing to do. I await his or someone elses response on that. I don't think journalists should bother the parents of either boy however.0 -
Decades ago, the Church and State were one big institution, there is plenty of blame around for both of them.0
-
Put in that position at that time and excluding the telling the parents of the Belfast boy i could not say he did anything that I would think anyone else would have done.
How about getting young children to sign oaths never to reveal what happened to them?
How about questioning young abused boys on the issues like masturbation and without having their parents present?
How about rising through the ranks of the church knowing that some of these monsters were still in positions, and continuing to remain silent?
How about being a man of his word “If I found myself in a situation where I was aware that my failure to act had allowed or meant that other children were abused, well then, I think I would resign.”. He did push Bishop Donal Murray to go for similar reasons in the wake of criticism in the Dublin diocesan report.0 -
You speak for the IRA do you?
Apparently even in the last year the IRA had a problem with people reporting members who killed someone in Belfast
And that was in 2008 not 1974/5
Incidentally while our atheist Taniste Eamon Gilmore is using his state privileged protecting him from defamation to demand Brady resign no media is asking what he was doing in 1974/5????
You are maybe not aware of his links to Official Sinn Fein at the time
Is anyone asking him like Cardinal Brady to account for his links in 1974 or who he told about the following?
Killings perpetrated by the Official IRA just prior and whilst Éamon Gilmore was a member of the Officials political movement (Sinn Féin/Official Sinn Fén/Sinn Féin The Workers Party/The Workers Party) include:
Owen Devine, 23-year-old,
shot McClure Street, off Ormeau Road, Belfast 26th August, 1973;
Seamus Larkin, 34-year-old,
shot Flagstaff, near Killeen, Co. Armagh 25th September, 1973;
Cecilia Byrne, 51-year-old,
bombed Limavady Road, Derry 11th January, 1974;
John Dunn, 46-year-old,
bombed Limavady Road, Derry 11th January, 1974;
Christopher Daly, 43-year-old,
shot off Balholm Drive, Ardoyne, Belfast 13th January, 1974;
Sean McAstocker, 28-year-old,
shot Lagan Street, Markets, Belfast 31st March, 1974;
Paul Tinnelly, 34-year-old,
shot The Square, Rostrevor, Co. Down 2nd June, 1974;
Maura Lavery, 66-year-old,
shot Jamaica Street, Ardoyne, Belfast 5th August, 1974;
Jeremiah ‘Jerry’ O’Connor, 60-year-old,
shot Upper Abbeygate Street, Galway 15th August, 1974;
Private Philip Drake, 20-year-old,
shot Drumbeg, Craigavon, Co. Armagh 26th August, 1974;
Hugh Ferguson, 19-year-old,
shot Whiterock Drive, Ballymurphy, Belfast 20th February, 1975
Danny Loughran, 20-year-old,
shot Albert Street, Lower Falls, Belfast 5th April, 1975;
Larry White, 26-year-old,
shot Mount Eden Road, Cork 10th June, 1975;
Martin McMenamy, 17-year-old,
shot New Lodge, Belfast 8th August, 1975;
Sean McNamee, 24-year-old,
shot Macweld Engineering, Whiterock, Belfast 10th October, 1975;
William ‘Billy’ Wright, 35-year-old,
shot Cabra Road, Cabra, Dublin 19th October, 1975;
Seamus McCusker, 40-year-old,
shot New Lodge Road, Belfast 31st October, 1975;
Owen McVeigh, 28-year-old,
shot Falls Road, Belfast 11th November, 1975;
Michael Duggan, 31-year-old,
shot Hawthorne Street, Belfast 12th November, 1975;
Paul Best, 19-year-old,
shot Andersonstown, Belfast 18th February, 1976;
Daniel Cowan, 30-year-old,
Riverdale Park East, Andersonstown, Belfast 27th July, 1977;
Seamus Costello, 38-year-old,
shot Northbrook Ave., off North Strand, Dublin 5th October, 1977;
Hugh O’Halloran, 28-year-old,
beaten Moyard Park, Ballymurphy, Belfast 10th September, 1979;
Éamon Kerr, 33-year-old,
shot Cape Street, Lower Falls, Belfast 11th March 1983;
Éamon Gilmore left The Workers Party when it split to form Democratic Left in 1992 before Democratic Left merged with the Labour Party in 1999. It should be noted that Éamon Gilmore expressed considerable reluctance on RTÉ’s 'Marian Finucane Show' of the 2nd October, 2010 to deal with his party membership of Sinn Féin/Official Sinn Féin/Sinn Féin The Workers Party.
Is anyone demanding his explanation or his resignation as deputy leader of the government?
Is this the most off-topic post in the history of Boards.ie?
What really comes across from your posts is an unbelievable unwillingness or inability to separate your undoubtedly unerring loyalty to the RCC and consider the simple fact of this event.
All that matters to you (it appears) is non-sensical points scoring..."I'll see your child sexual abuse and raise you Gilmore's past in the Workers Party..." as if this somehow makes the Brady case we're talking about less grave.
You do yourself no favours.
Cardinal Brady's behaviour was monumentally flawed and his and the RCC's inability to see that his resignation is the minimum outcome serves to remind us that, in fact, on the issue of child sexual abuse, the Church has learned nothing..0 -
ironingbored wrote: »Is this the most off-topic post in the history of Boards.ie?
What really comes across from your posts is an unbelievable unwillingness or inability to separate your undoubtedly unerring loyalty to the RCC and consider the simple fact of this event.
A
I cannot speak for others, but I myself am loyal to the teaching Magisterium of the CC as handed down by the Apostles, of which the Pope is the successor. Unfortunately there are those within her ranks who are a disgrace to their vocation, and failed to live up to the faith they profess, and I'm not singling out anyone in particular - we all fall short at times.0 -
On the informing the parents issue he DID inform the parents in the South. He or someone should have informed the parents in Belfast. If nobody did then that was not the right thing to do. I await his or someone elses response on that. I don't think journalists should bother the parents of either boy however.
I have no wish to be drawn into your whataboutery re percentages of non-clerical abusers, numbers of domestic telephone lines in the North in the 1970s, etc., but on this factual point, would you please link to a source that confirms that Brady informed the parents of the abused children in the South who were identified to him by Brendan Boland?
Because everything I have read indicates that Brady did NOT inform those parents. Again, from today's IRISH TIMES:On April 4th, 1975, Fr Brady interviewed a 15-year-old boy at the parochial house in Ballyjamesduff, Co Cavan, concerning his abuse by Smyth. He was one of five young people whose names and addresses had been given by Brendan Boland at that inquiry in Dundalk. Four of those were never spoken to by any priest, nor were their parents. Nor were the parents of the 15-year-old boy interviewed by Fr Brady in Ballyjamesduff.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0505/1224315653805.html0 -
They werent! They were sworn not to discuss THE CHURCH PROCESSphiliporeilly wrote: »How about getting young children to sign oaths never to reveal what happened to them?
They were open to report it to the Gardai.
Discussing the process could affect the outcome by the perpetrator claiming an unfair trial.
the reason for this has been discussed in this thread -it was to protect the victims from the process cllapsing.
Happens every day it is called "in camera"
It is pârticularly done for minors in family courts
No press and no public and no legal people not connected with the case.
Happens every day.How about rising through the ranks of the church knowing that some of these monsters were still in positions, and continuing to remain silent?
different issue and one we can explore.
how abut Eamon gilmore knowing about OIRA people? Or Gerry adams knowing PIRA?How about being a man of his word “If I found myself in a situation where I was aware that my failure to act had allowed or meant that other children were abused, well then, I think I would resign.”. He did push Bishop Donal Murray to go for similar reasons in the wake of criticism in the Dublin diocesan report.
Yes i agree; which is why i want to know why he didnt tell one set of parents and did tell the others and whether he was told they were informed or that it was being dealt with.0 -
ironingbored wrote: »Is this the most off-topic post in the history of Boards.ie?
It isnt off topic!
The topic is whether someone who knows abut illegality or crime from thirty years ago or wrongdoing should resign today from an office they just got.
whether thayt office is Primate or Tainiste is beside the point.
what is a related point is whether the Tainiste who is calling for the bishop to resign and promoting church and state be separate should
1. Be interfering in a separate church issue or
2. Be using his State privileged from defamation to attack the churchWhat really comes across from your posts is an unbelievable unwillingness or inability to separate your undoubtedly unerring loyalty to the RCC and consider the simple fact of this event.
that is just ad hominem. When you cant deal with the issues do yu always resort to attacking the person making htem? I have made similar arguments with holocaust deniers but that does not mean i have unerring loyalty to a Jewish state.All that matters to you (it appears) is non-sensical points scoring..."I'll see your child sexual abuse and raise you Gilmore's past in the Workers Party..." as if this somehow makes the Brady case we're talking about less grave.
No it making the totally valid point that if the principle is someone should resign for not telling then that principle is a double standard if you apply it only to the church and not to anyone else. Including applying it to the person making it! It is in that case hypocrisy in addition to double standards.Cardinal Brady's behaviour was monumentally flawed and his and the RCC's inability to see that his resignation is the minimum outcome serves to remind us that, in fact, on the issue of child sexual abuse, the Church has learned nothing..
the ONLY nex point being made is that Brady told one set of parents in his own aera and didnt tell another set in Belfast. while it is something i would like explained that isnbt a monulenbtal flaw nor des it show the church supporting a policy of rape. Other people knew abut the IRA and didnt tell and supported a policy of secrecy about dozens of murders. Those same people demand Brady resign for not telling the Belfast parents! Is that not a flaw in their record which suggests they resign as well?0 -
Advertisement
-
Yes i agree; which is why i want to know why he didnt tell one set of parents and did tell the others and whether he was told they were informed or that it was being dealt with.the ONLY nex point being made is that Brady told one set of parents in his own aera and didnt tell another set in Belfast.
Did we cross-post, or are you ignoring me? What is your basis for this?0 -
LostinKildare wrote: »would you please link to a source that confirms that Brady informed the parents of the abused children in the South who were identified to him by Brendan Boland?
Because everything I have read indicates that Brady did NOT inform those parents. Again, from today's IRISH TIMES:
It seems to be as follows:
Boland,s parents were told that is my point. Brady interviewed one of them -i guess because he lived nearby . the boy however was from Belfast and going to school in cavan i think it was the same school Brady was in. Brady was told to interview him and did so; He didnt contact the boys parents.
There are it seem SIX boys mentioned by Boland. Boland himself, a Belfast boy and four others.
the names of the boys were given by Boland. Brady didnt do that interview but was at it and took notes. Brady interviewed the Belfast boy.
the same might happen in a garda investigation. a garda might take notes in one case interview in another and not contact the other four mentioned.0 -
They werent! They were sworn not to discuss THE CHURCH PROCESS
They were open to report it to the Gardai.
This is disingenuous. They were sworn to secrecy on everything that was discussed in the interview.
Typical, let’s put the onus on the 14-year old to report it to the Gardai’. :rolleyes:Discussing the process could affect the outcome by the perpetrator claiming an unfair trial. the reason for this has been discussed in this thread -it was to protect the victims from the process cllapsing.
Happens every day it is called "in camera" It is pârticularly done for minors in family courts
No press and no public and no legal people not connected with the case.
Happens every day.
Yes, I’m sure the above is the reason for the secrecy. Why was minor interviewed without a parent/guardian/solicitor present? Surely this is an offence in its own right.different issue and one we can explore.
how abut Eamon gilmore knowing about OIRA people? Or Gerry adams knowing PIRA?
In another thread perhaps? You might think introducing the above somehow exonerates Brady and the RCC. I’m afraid it doesn’t.Yes i agree; which is why i want to know why he didnt tell one set of parents and did tell the others and whether he was told they were informed or that it was being dealt with.
Brady did not inform any other the children’s parents. Can you elaborate on this “set” of parents he informed that their children were being sexually abused?0 -
the ONLY nex point being made is that Brady told one set of parents in his own aera and didnt tell another set in Belfast. while it is something i would like explained that isnbt a monulenbtal flaw nor des it show the church supporting a policy of rape. Other people knew abut the IRA and didnt tell and supported a policy of secrecy about dozens of murders. Those same people demand Brady resign for not telling the Belfast parents! Is that not a flaw in their record which suggests they resign as well?
Just for the record. You do know that the IRA (an illegal terrorist/separatist guerilla army) is not the Roman Catholic Church.
You seem to think that we should measure our judgement/opinions on the basis that they are equals.0 -
A phone call isnt the type of way this thing shoulf be told to parents.
Calling someone by phone to tell them their child is being abused isnt a proper protocall as far as I am concerned.
I certainly do not think it should have been by phone.
[1975 - Phone Call]
Fr. John Brady: Mr. Boland, I believe your children may be in danger from a dangerous priest who abuses children.
Mr. Boland: I'm sorry Fr. Brady, I would be prefer to hear this news either by registered mail or formal interview. Thanks anyway.I dont think Brady had to inform them himself.
nd we dont know yet if any else did inform them -just that Brady didnt.
Aaarrrgggghhhh....the point is he SHOULD have told them. :mad:0 -
-
ironingbored wrote: »This is disingenuous. They were sworn to secrecy on everything that was discussed in the interview.
Typical, let’s put the onus on the 14-year old to report it to the Gardai’. :rolleyes:
the Parents of the 14 year old knew . they were told!
the parents of the 15 year old were not told by Brady.
We dont know if someone else told them.Yes, I’m sure the above is the reason for the secrecy. Why was minor interviewed without a parent/guardian/solicitor present? Surely this is an offence in its own right.
the second minor wasn't the first 14 year old had the parents present; As I understand and Im pen to correction they were asked if they would remain in the adjoining room and they opted to do that. but they did know about the abuse and they too didn't report it. I dont think they should be perused on it either.
I dont think the interview was illegal. Under what law?
I think the interview was probably inadmissible in a legal case because I would say the church has no locus standi as a plaintiff.In another thread perhaps? You might think introducing the above somehow exonerates Brady and the RCC. I’m afraid it doesn’t.
No Im making the point that Mr A cant advance a principle if "resign from a senior position because you knew about a crime thirty years ago in you past and didnt report it" and then not apply he same principle to Mr A in relation to several dozen murders at the same period. i know two wrongs do not make a right but the principle being advnces is a hypocritical and double standards. You cant apply a double standard to a general principle;Brady did not inform any other the children’s parents.
that wold seem to be the case. I really dont know.Can you elaborate on this “set” of parents he informed that their children were being sexually abused?
the one who he interviewed boland's; i dont know if Brady himself informed them but they were informed.0 -
It seems to be as follows:
Boland,s parents were told that is my point. Brady interviewed one of them -i guess because he lived nearby . the boy however was from Belfast and going to school in cavan i think it was the same school Brady was in. Brady was told to interview him and did so; He didnt contact the boys parents.
There are it seem SIX boys mentioned by Boland. Boland himself, a Belfast boy and four others.
the names of the boys were given by Boland. Brady didnt do that interview but was at it and took notes. Brady interviewed the Belfast boy.
the same might happen in a garda investigation. a garda might take notes in one case interview in another and not contact the other four mentioned.
ISAW, there have been many, many articles in the press that have explained the facts of the case. Perhaps you have been too busy desperately constructing apologia for Brady to take time to familiarise yourself with the facts?
On a minor point, why do you say that the boy Brady interviewed in Cavan was from Belfast and only attending school in Cavan? I haven't seen anything to indicate that, and I wonder if you've just made that up to fit your argument that it was somehow not possible for a priest in the South to talk to parents in Belfast.
But the larger picture: Brady never informed ANY of the parents of the 5 abused children identified by Brendan Boland, North or South.
When Brendan Boland initially confided about the abuse to his priest Oliver McShane, McShane immediately brought him to tell his father and informed the church authorities. DO NOT CREDIT BRADY for telling anyone's parents -- he didn't.In 1975 he [Boland] plucked up the courage to tell a Louth priest, Fr Oliver McShane, who immediately told his parents and his church superiors.
On March 29 that year, Brendan was forced to leave his dad outside a room at a monastery while he met with the then Fr John B Brady and two other clerics and detailed horrific abuse meted out to him by Smyth. He also gave the names of five other young people he believed were being abused.
Cardinal Brady's failure to inform the parents of those children or the police has led to this week's crisis in the church.
"Fr McShane was a great priest. He has left the priesthood now and moved to England but he did the right thing," said Mr Boland, an electrical engineer.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/i-thought-god-had-taken-my-teen-son-because-i-had-spoken-out-says-victim-3098253.html
Interestingly, McShane was one of the two priests who accompanied Brady in interviewing Boland:An advocate represents a client at canon law procedures. He must be skilled in canon law and have a degree in same, which Cardinal Brady has to the highest level. Neither of the other two priests who attended that inquiry with Brendan Boland in 1975 – the now retired archdeacon Francis Donnelly nor Dominican priest Fr Oliver McShane – were expert in canon law.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0503/1224315510225.html
So presumably, McShane also would have heard the information about the other 5 children. Why, when he had informed Boland's parents of the abuse, did he not also inform the other children's parents? Hmm. Could it have something to do with the influence of Brady, who had been dispatched by his bishop, Francis McKiernan (who was already well aware of Smyth's crimes but had not put a stop to them)?
Interesting that those priests who apparently stepped outside the rules -- McShane, who at least informed Boland's father, and Mulvihill, who again and again pestered church officials about Smyth
(http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0504/1224315592493.html)
wound up leaving the priesthood and indeed leaving Ireland, while Brady -- who kept shtum -- rose through the ranks.0 -
it appears another Atheist Minister Rory Quinn is also calling for Brady to resign.
so what is Rory Quinn's history on child abuse as a person in high office?
http://www.paddydoyle.com/category/bethany-homes/Ruairi Quinn has rejected not just Bethany survivors but his own party colleagues Joe Costello and Kathleen Lynch who have been campaigning for years on this issue. Junior Minister Kathleen Lynch was thrown out of the Dail last October while trying to raise the issue of Bethany survivors with the then Fianna Fail minister.0 -
Advertisement
-
Canon law this and canon law that. What is this nonsense? Whether a priest is familiar with canon law is irrelevant!
A priest etc does not have the right to hold canon law above the common law of the Republic of Ireland or any other state on this planet!
I just watched the the BBC programme on this matter. It is horrendous to watch. What is worse, is the self-serving nonsense that the church is still spouting.
SD0
Advertisement