The Clerical Child Abuse Thread (merged)

gimmebroadband

Shocking sex abuse and coverups in the COE just surfacing!

Child abuse has gone unchecked in the Church of England for decades amid a cover up by bishops, secret papers have revealed.
Information that could have prevented abuse has been "lost or damaged", concerns about individuals have been ignored and allegations have not been recorded.

It means the Church has no idea how many paedophiles are in its midst.

Lawyers have warned the Church faces a crisis as catastrophic as the one that engulfed the Roman Catholic Church and cost it millions of pounds in damages.

Richard Scorer, a solicitor who has specialised in child abuse cases, said the Church of England's mistakes amounted to "an appalling, shocking level of negligence" likely to leave it open to claims from victims who have been too afraid to speak out in the past.

The Church is to launch an urgent investigation on an unprecedented scale.

Expose

It will look at the records of thousands of clergy - including those who have retired - church employees, lay workers and volunteers dating back decades in an attempt to expose those who have previously escaped prosecution and identify those who pose "current risks".

Dioceses will appoint independent reviewers with access to all of their personnel files.

However, the internal Church documents show even if churchwardens are found to have previous allegations against them, the Church has no power to suspend them.

Bishops have called for the review following two high-profile cases last spring.

One of the documents, compiled by the Church's Central Safeguarding Liaison Group, concedes "most serious concerns will have been known by the senior staff at the time".

The Church has been guilty of systemic failures on a large scale, according to the document.

"Some records may have been lost or damaged," it says, adding warnings from psychologists might also have been ignored.

The liaison group was asked to draw up a review policy by the House of Bishops, which discussed the plans at its meeting earlier this month.

Dr Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, who was at the meeting, has backed the need for a comprehensive review following the two child abuse cases.

"Every parish has got to have a child protection policy and it needs to work properly," he said.

The liaison group is chaired by the Right Reverend Anthony Priddis, the Bishop of Hereford, and includes the Reverend Pearl Luxon, the Church's child protection adviser, as well as other clergy with experience in legal, social and probation work.

The bishops agree "there may well be gaps in the Church's collective memory" that have allowed sex offenders to go unpunished.

While the Catholic Church has been hit by dozens of sex abuse cases, the Church of England had been relatively unaffected until spring this year.

http://clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/2007/11/church-of-england-ignored-child-abuse.html

And more...........

http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=6938

http://www.reformation.com/CSA/episcopalianabuse.html

http://www.rickross.com/reference/clergy/clergy292.html

http://www.blinkx.com/watch-video/crime-anglican-vicar-jailed-for-child-abuse/SbJ02DmhPWhEhzqStWjs_A

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6594439.stm

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/anglican-chruch-of-south-australia-swept-child-sex-abuse-under-carpet/story-e6frea83-1225971525957

http://www.rte.ie/tv/wouldyoubelieve/

http://www.abc.net.au/tasmania/news/200410/s1212956.htm

gigino

gimmebroadband wrote: »

Child abuse has gone unchecked in the Church of England for decades amid a cover up by bishops, secret papers have revealed.

do you have a credible link to these papers .... rather than copying your entire post from someones elses blog , as you have done ?

And until one case in the C of E is proven / you show the link to, would you care to comment on our own house .... what about the abuse as revealed on the RTE documentary last Tuesday evening ( Prime Time, 9.30 pm ) which more or less stated 100% of the women held in those institutions ( Magdalene Laundries ) by nuns were abused, though not sexually ? And the 0% response rate by the 4 Roman Catholic institutions involved ?

lmaopml

Whether it was in the Catholic Church or the Protestant denominations, or out in the Arsehole of nowhere - where there are no denominations to speak of, or indeed within the Family home in every country around the entire Globe - Child abuse is covered up by people who are experts at covering up, covering tracks, using power etc. etc.

I actually don't understand why or how it serves any particular purpose to finger point and say peadophiles gather more here or there or whatever...We know where they go, and statistics just prove that they will use any and all means to access children...

You would think with greater understanding of the psych, and how this is a 'sickness' and a little knowledge in general on history and development of understanding that people would be more worried about where the heck they are 'now' and making sure that children are empowered...

Shees...

gigino

lmaopml wrote: »

people would be more worried about where the heck they are 'now'

+1. It has been rumoured Africa / the 3rd world is where many are /were...and that will be the next big scandal......but poorly educated people can be easily bullied in to keeping quiet, and as we have seen even in western societies how things can be covered up.

lmaopml

Well, all things considered we learn, we've been given a great opportunity to learn, and move on....

ISAW

StudentDad wrote: »

I've only skimmed over this thread as it seems to have come back to life. Anyway, if the figures of abuse are so low as argued on this thread why are the church authorities so loath to step forward into the light, atone for their mistakes and admit liability? Surely this attitude runs contrary to any christian belief.

Because the cases are not cases they are alleged cases taken from anonymous telephone polls of 3,000 people. the names of the offenders might not even be known. Or they might be and the offender already in goal and the victim apologised to and compensation already paid.

From what I've seen in the media and various reports etc from around the world nevermind in Ireland the church has adopted a siege mentality even to go so far in the states as to argue before the courts that they are as 'representatives of god' not answerable to the common law!

Where did you see that in the media?
Did you read the actual court report from the actual case?

but one thing is true the Church is under siege. Not from victims but from anti Christian myth makers.

To my mind the church has wandered so far away from it's own teachings in how it behaves that frankly it is little wonder that the RC church has lost credibility.

What teaching do you suggest the church wandered from? Do you believe asll the people in the church suffer from this or only clergy or only seniot clergy e.g. Bishops. How many Bishops ? a thousand? ten thousand? Ther are thousands of them. Ill bet you can even list ten Bishops for whom you can provide evidence of this wandering away.

This saddens me as there are many clerics within the church who do very good work but 'church corporate' undermines the very faith in it's teachings by it's blinkered actions.

For many try "almost all". What do you mean by "church corporate" Who are they? Can yuo name them?

I'd love to know why Robert Mugabe was at the beatification of John Paul II as an example.

Off topic and already answered elsewhere. he was not invited by the Vatican but came anyway.

ISAW

gigino wrote: »

But babysitters have contact with children, for example putting them to bed.

Which is what you earlier claimed Priests could do in times past?

The level of sexual abuse achieved by Priests / Religous is shocking because (a) most do not have that level of access to children in private

The whole reason why some clerics had access to multiple victims was because the DID have such access in the past. It isn't as if socisty banned them it is just that Priests did the teaching, minding the dormatory , school management etc. jobs which today are done by lay people.

and (b) there are far more babysitters in the country than Priests.

With the sort of access in the peak period of the report. I think not.

And leaving aside sexual abuse / moving religous to different parishes or abroad etc as cover ups,

Which was not always to cover up but because it was believed separating victim from abuser would stop the problem. Parents and other non clerical authorities also agreed with this practice. It would not happen today because of CPPs.

what about other types of child abuse e.g. the RTE documentary last Tuesday evening ( Prime Time, 9.30 pm ) which more or less stated 100% of the women held in those institutions ( Magdalene Laundries ) by nuns were abused, though not sexually ? And the 0% response rate by the 4 Roman Catholic institutions involved ?

Your point in relation to clerical Child abuse being?

ISAW

lmaopml wrote: »

You would think with greater understanding of the psych, and how this is a 'sickness' and a little knowledge in general on history and development of understanding that people would be more worried about where the heck they are 'now' and making sure that children are empowered...

Shees...

Which is why there are CPPs.

Also you are talking about a dozen or two priests in Ireland over fifty years when 400 a year were trained. Most are dead or in prison. Some less serious cases have left the priesthood and disappeared.

gimmebroadband

gigino wrote: »

do you have a credible link to these papers .... rather than copying your entire post from someones elses blog , as you have done ?

And until one case in the C of E is proven / you show the link to, would you care to comment on our own house .... what about the abuse as revealed on the RTE documentary last Tuesday evening ( Prime Time, 9.30 pm ) which more or less stated 100% of the women held in those institutions ( Magdalene Laundries ) by nuns were abused, though not sexually ? And the 0% response rate by the 4 Roman Catholic institutions involved ?

The same news as in the blog is also in the one of the other links provided, have you even looked at them? It seems obvious that you detest the CC. At least acknowledge that it's happening everywhere!

gigino

ISAW wrote: »

Which is what you earlier claimed Priests could do in times past?

rubbish, you must be thinking of someone else , I do not know what point you are trying to make

gimmebroadband wrote: »

The same news as in the blog is also in the one of the other links provided, have you even looked at them?

Yes, and nothing very much there, no concrete evidence. Certaily the Roman Catholic Church is in a league of its own when it comes to abuse ; perhaps as other have suggested this may partly be due to celibacy / sexual frustration / above average incidence of homosexual tendancies in those who chooose celibacy ?

gigino

ISAW wrote: »

Your point in relation to clerical Child abuse being?

You do not think the attitude of the Hierachy of the RCC in relation to other types of child abuse (e.g. the RTE documentary last Tuesday evening , Prime Time, 9.30 pm , which more or less stated 100% of the women held in those institutions - Magdalene Laundries - by nuns were abused, though not sexually ? And the 0% response rate by the 4 Roman Catholic institutions involved ? ) has any relevance to the debate on clerical sex abuse ?
Are both, and the handling of both scandals, not about the abuse of power by the RCC ?

ISAW

Festus wrote: »

This must be taken on faith until proven otherwise.




Consider the last paragraph after table 4.11

"Two (of 23 religious ministers/religious teachers were also relatives"

religions ministers/religious teachers (23) -

Consider table 4.11 religious(6), religious teacher (12)
6 + 12 = 23 ?


No 6 + 12 = 18

Either the authors of SAVI cannot do basic math or it is a stitch up.

Either way it makes the SAVI report worthless.

Actually it is
Teacher (religious) - 12 men and no women reported [I think they include abuse of adults]
Religious minister (6 men ) + (6 women)

Total =24

Total male = 18

The funny think is the 5.8 per cent isn't in the table and as someone suggested to me the highest abuser of boys are "other " followed by "babysitter" . Ironically I would suggest babysitters are usually female and this would indicate larger female proportions of abusers. The only way of pulling in clergy is by discarding the largest group *other " over 34 percent and then adding the 9.1 per cent of Ministers to the third largest group "teachers" making a new not part ogf the design 27.3 per cent group out of two lower groups already put into the design so they can pass out the babysitter group. then the actual largest group is ignored and you fourth largest group "ministers" is now featured as the chief offender! Bizzare!
Ironically the actual percentge of the 300 population that Ministers represent is given at 1.9% male 1.4% female in the same row of the table a. I would suggest it is out by at least a factor of two and should be under 1 %

p values and statistical confidence tests are not given as they are earlier. That is strange since it is a standard practice. Such tests would show how reliable the 1.9 per cent is and what are the chance of it just being an anomaly.

for example the preceding paragraph has p=0.01 .

I now see wher they got the 5.8 per cent!

They added the 1.9 Ministers to the 3.9 religious teachers making it higher than baby sitter and then they ignored the largest "other" group! and they only do this for boys since if they did it for girls Teacher + Minister would be 1.4 per cent which is still lower then the 4.6 per cent of girls abused by babysitters and the 7.6 per cent "other"

Bizzare

Absolutely Bizzare! We have 1.9 for Clergy and thy make it into a "largest abuser of boys" in spite of being fourth!

Michael G

I am an aggressively right-wing Catholic and will defend the Church's position in almost any circumstances, but I think this is a pointless discussion. Some Catholic priests abused children and their bishops or superiors tried to cover it up and did not try to care for the children. Some Protestant clergymen abused children too, and their authorities tried to hide it. Children were also abused by people working for secular employers. I cannot see any point in debating whether Catholic priests were 0.5% or 1% or 2% more likely to abuse children than Anglicans or Presbyterians or agnostics. Abusing any child is wrong and the person doing it should be taken away at once from contact with children and handed over to the police. If this thread has turned into another rant about how celibate Catholic priests are more likely to abuse children, then there is nothing to see here.

gimmebroadband

gigino wrote: »

Yes, and nothing very much there, no concrete evidence. Certaily the Roman Catholic Church is in a league of its own when it comes to abuse ; perhaps as other have suggested this may partly be due to celibacy / sexual frustration / above average incidence of homosexual tendancies in those who chooose celibacy ?

Maybe the COE was better at 'covering' it up!

I wouldn't believe 'half' what RTE reports as they are adept at twisting things around and hate the Catholic Church. I worked in the Magdalen Laundries in the 80s and I never saw any kind of abuse, in fact the nuns where I worked were lovely! I would suspect most of the abuse was in the 60s etc.

Magdalen asylums, although popularly associated with Ireland, there is nothing distinctly Irish or Roman Catholic about them, indeed a number of the asylums, including the first in Ireland, were founded and run by members of Protestant denominations.

http://magdalene-asylum.co.tv/

gigino

"According to http://www.drcc.ie/about/savi.pdf ( see page 88 / 89 ),"Combining religious ministers and religious teachers they constituted the largest single category of authority figures as abusers of boys; 5.8 per cent of all boys sexually abused were abused by clergy or religious".

(their words, not mine)

ISAW wrote: »

Bizzare

What is bizarre is that Clergy / religous abused such a high percentage of boys abused, considering most were never allowed inside their houses / bedrooms unaccompanied, and considering the clergy /religous are such a tiny percentage of the population. I gave a link earlier showing the amount of Priests / brothers in Ireland, its clear it is continuing to drop dramatically. ( just like the number of nuns is dropping dramatically )

ISAW

Michael G wrote: »

I cannot see any point in debating whether Catholic priests were 0.5% or 1% or 2% more likely to abuse children than Anglicans or Presbyterians or agnostics. Abusing any child is wrong and the person doing it should be taken away at once from contact with children and handed over to the police.

Indeed. But the fact is clerics are 1 per cent of abusers or less. They ( at 1.9) then get reported as a "largest group" by throwing them in with a third largest group ( religion teachers at 3.9 ) making 5.8 this is bigger than the babysitters ( probably women and we dont want to say women abuse kids if we are out to get priests). we then ignore the largest group of all ( others at 7.6 %)

Oh and we do this only for males abused ( including male adults) since if we did it for women the fake group we created would still be lower than babysitters.

We don't give a p value for any of these stats like we did on the page before and just for good measure to get the eyes off babysitters who might be female on the following page
Most female abusers (73 per cent) were not deemed to have been in positions of authority.
So it is unlikely they will be in the "Authority figure " report.

And we stress "Most child abusers were lone men" People might think these 89 per cent are actually the 1.9 per cent Ministers?

To be fair it does say

Most of those abusing as babysitters were lone males(73 per cent) and most were also relatives (58 per cent).

But it is misreporting as I see it.

ISAW

gigino wrote: »

What is bizarre is that Clergy / religous abused such a high percentage of boys abused,

They dint! the 1.9 per cent of Ministers of fourth highest for boys nd lower for girls and the level of the religious teachers number is ZERO for girls!

considering most were never allowed inside their houses / bedrooms unaccompanied,

That isn't true at all. You seem not to have read the cases of clergy convicted.
But dont forget the 1.9 per cent her is in a phone poll and represents 6 Clergy of over 3000 people phoned and of thoise six we know that 2 from the group mentioned were also family of the victim. We dont know if of the 4 remaining whether they were Catholic priests or not.


It is always wrong but why are you only interested in the one per cent clergy and not in the other 99 per cent of abusers?

and considering the clergy /religous are such a tiny percentage of the population.

I thin you gave the ratio earlier. But again we are discussing another time when the clergy and the country was more authoritarian and the clergy were not such a tiny proportion of the population way more then the one per cent they constituted of abusers. I have supplied census stats from 1951 to back that up.

I gave a link earlier showing the amount of Priests / brothers in Ireland, its clear it is continuing to drop dramatically. ( just like the number of nuns is dropping dramatically )

And I gave you a census link from 1951 didn't I which shows your "such a small proportion" argument is rubbish since in that time they constituted a higher proportion of the population then their less than 1% proportion of abusers.

wolfsbane

I'm sure it has been said before in this thread, but just in case:
1. Sexual abuse, and abuse in general, of children comes from power and secrecy. Within families, within institutions, within churches.

Where the perpetrator thinks he/she can get away with it, the evil in their hearts wells up and puts into practice what they might never have dreamt they would desire or engage in otherwise. That is something we all need to reflect on - what is our heart really like? What might we do if we were reasonably confident of success? That's why we desperately need to know Christ and the power of His salvation. By nature we could do any thing.

2. The RCC is rightly criticised for its cover-up of abuses. It knows how powerful it is in the lives of its members, so it ought to know how easily that power corrupts and the consequent need for vigilance and retribution. Only then will the would-be abuser be deterred.

But the RCC put its good name above the safety of its children. Worse, it put its idea of itself above them - for many of the incidents would never have been made public if the Church had removed the offender and be seen by the victims to have done so. Many of the victims families were very committed to the reputation of their church.

Other churches will have their share of abuse cover-ups, I dare say in proportion to their power and their distorted self-image. I know of Evangelical churches that have as big an ego as the RCC, and they are wide-open to the same temptation to cover-up if any abuse occurs.

**************************************************************************
2 Corinthians 4:1 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.

ISAW

wolfsbane wrote: »

I'm sure it has been said before in this thread, but just in case:
1. Sexual abuse, and abuse in general, of children comes from power and secrecy. Within families, within institutions, within churches.

Not necessarily. In ancient Greece there were minors - boys - having sex with grown men
It apparently was widely known.
We could have orgy societies. Wife swapping and dogging and cottaging going on all over the place. It might not be secret. It would still be abuse.
In fact one can claim prostitution is done in the open in some cities. Is it not then abuse of women? Can someone offer to become a slave and be humiliated and abused and this not be deemed abuse?

2. The RCC is rightly criticised for its cover-up of abuses.

the church is its members not parts of its hierarchy. They are only leaders and guides.

It knows how powerful it is in the lives of its members, so it ought to know how easily that power corrupts

What do you mean by that "power corrupts" ? Corrupts = changes from a unchanging state? What changed? To what specific corruption do you refer?

But the RCC put its good name above the safety of its children.

Some of its leaders did. In some cases the Church didn't even know and another authority figure covered up or failed to prosecute because that thought it pointless or better not to.

Worse, it put its idea of itself above them - for many of the incidents would never have been made public if the Church had removed the offender and be seen by the victims to have done so.

And this happened to - but granted not in all cases.

Many of the victims families were very committed to the reputation of their church.

Indeed and still are.

Other churches will have their share of abuse cover-ups, I dare say in proportion to their power and their distorted self-image.

Quite the opposite . Some denominations with less influence have higher levels of abuse.

gigino

ISAW wrote: »

Some denominations with less influence have higher levels of abuse.

Really ? Do you really think other denominations have higher levels of abuse than the RCC ? If you look at the widespread abuses which took place in industrial schools, orphanages, magdalene laundries etc - could any other denomination have higher levels of abuse ? And looking at specific areas of the RCC e.g. the RTE documentary last Tuesday evening , Prime Time, 9.30 pm , which more or less stated 100% of the women held in those institutions - Magdalene Laundries - by nuns were abused, though not sexually ? And what about the 0% response rate by the 4 Roman Catholic institutions involved ? Shameful or what ?

ISAW

gigino wrote: »

Really ? Do you really think other denominations have higher levels of abuse than the RCC ?

Yes and other non christian groups too.

In islam for example the Prophet Mohammad apparently married a six year old and had sex with her aged nine. Muslims are I believe expected to replicate the Prophets life.

If you look at the widespread abuses which took place in industrial schools, orphanages, magdalene laundries etc - could any other denomination have higher levels of abuse ?

The discussion was specifically about sexual abuse but yes in my experience in schools more physical abuse was doled out by lay teachers then by brothers. And I speak as someone who had a pitchside pole from a sideline flag broken over my back by a Brother when I was ten years old. Actually my vertibrae are weak there and I have no idea if the two are linked. If I met the brother tomorrow I would bear him no ill feelings.

And looking at specific areas of the RCC e.g. the RTE documentary last Tuesday evening , Prime Time, 9.30 pm , which more or less stated 100% of the women held in those institutions - Magdalene Laundries - by nuns were abused, though not sexually ?

Woudl you like in state or outside state comparisons?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_to_Inquire_into_Child_Abuse#Allegations_and_their_extent
[/quote]
Of the approximately 25,000 children who had attended the institutions in the time period concerned, around one thousand five hundred persons came forward with complaints to the commission.[32] Commission records show that 474 claims of physical abuse and 253 claims of sexual abuse were made by boys against the institutions in that period.[33] Records show that 383 claims of physical abuse and 128 claims of sexual abuse were made by girls against institutions over the years concerned. These claims covered all levels of abuse from the most serious down, and were made against both religious and lay personnel. The majority of sexual abuse claims by girls were against staff that should have been supervised by the religious orders.[34]
[/quote]

Thats about 380 sex abuse cases in 25,000 children ~ about 1.5 per cent of the children.
An acceptable level would be zero

In the book Who Framed Colin Wallace? (Who Framed Colin Wallace) by Paul Foot (Macmillan, London 1989), we learn about the Kincora boys' home scandal.

Allegedly:

1. Colin Wallace served in a special Ministry of Defence press unit in Northern Ireland which dealt in "psychological operations."

2. Wallace tried to alert the authorities about what was going on at Kincora.

3. McGrath was working for MI5; the Security Service ignored the plight of the boys at Kincora.

4. In 1973 MI5 set up a propaganda campaign named Clockwork Orange. The purpose of Clockwork Orange was to blackmail and control top political figures in Northern Ireland and Great Britain, including Harold Wilson and Edward Heath.

5. In October 1974, Wallace refused to take any further part in the Clockwork Orange operation. He was sacked and he moved to England.

The husband of a friend and colleague was found dead.

Wallace was accused of murder and sentenced to ten years' imprisonment.

On 30 January 1990, UK Armed Forces Minister, Archie Hamilton admitted that several key allegations made by Colin Wallace were true.

Surely if true the State apparatus is actually running prostitution and extortion and blackmail to a worse level than any Church in covering child abuse.

And what about the 0% response rate by the 4 Roman Catholic institutions involved ? Shameful or what ?

Response to what?

lmaopml

wolfsbane wrote: »

Other churches will have their share of abuse cover-ups, I dare say in proportion to their power and their distorted self-image. I know of Evangelical churches that have as big an ego as the RCC, and they are wide-open to the same temptation to cover-up if any abuse occurs.

**************************************************************************
2 Corinthians 4:1 Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we do not lose heart. 2 But we have renounced the hidden things of shame, not walking in craftiness nor handling the word of God deceitfully, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.

I agree with you Wolfsbane, but I think it's difficult to 'know' everything or even to trust everybody just because they say they are a 'Christian' of such and such denomination. Or indeed an 'Atheist' who finds it hard to define exactly what he/she is, but is finding their way..or anybody else in any situation they wield a percieved power or greater knowledge as such..

..Or Catholics, who are not exempt.

Or even a 'lovely' parent who our child trusts and wants to take our child out and have a sleep over. We know a little more these days and that's a really good thing, it's these things we didn't even contemplate happened, or we could understand did happen yesterday - collectively.

We're 'suspicious' now of everybody and more careful....I know my little ones are watched like a hawk now - sad too. I sometimes see danger where there is none.

'Collectively' we didn't 'cut it', the scientists, our understanding, the religious, the non religious, the state, the protective services, the parents themselves and families etc. etc.

I wouldn't like to get overprotective and obsessed - or indeed underprotective - most importantly, because I blame it all on 'those' Catholics, or thought it was a breeding ground somehow..that's ignorance.

Yes, they were guilty of covering up, yes they were - and if justice serves than the authorities will do what they can now. It's up to our state to prosecute, and condemn - each accordingly..

That's where science and biology and psychology come in...

It's important to get educated on this and protect children - that's ultimately the most important thing. Justice, will go through the courts and not stand for a witch hunt, justice takes her time, while gossip gossips, and surmises...

I know more than my parents did...but it doesn't diminish my faith. It's important to learn and move along with more understanding..I hope.

The last century has brought unprecedended change in understanding..It's been a blessing.

gigino

ISAW wrote: »

Woudl you like in state or outside state comparisons?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_to_Inquire_into_Child_Abuse#Allegations_and_their_extent

From your own wiki link above, which gathers different facts to yours
"The Irish Times called the report "a devastating indictment of Church and State authorities,"[35] "the map of an Irish hell." "The sheer scale and longevity of the torment inflected on defenceless children – over 800 known abusers in over 200 Catholic institutions during a period of 35 years – should alone make it clear that it was not accidental or opportunistic but systematic. Abuse was not a failure of the system. It was the system."[

It was not just sex abuse. The Prime Time tv programme referred to the abuse - not sexual - inflicted on the women held prisoner in these RC controlled Magdalene Laundries. They were forced to work 12 hours a day for no pay. They were locked up when not working,under lock and key. If they ever escaped they were returned to the institution against their will by the state authorities / Gardai. If thats not slavery, what is ? When written to, the 4 RC institutions have not replied. There are only a few hundred of these survivors left alive. They deserve an apology, as RTE said. Considering the extraordinary wealth of the RCC church, and the 90 billion th RCC has in assets, should'nt these women be given an apology + some sort of pension for their years of unpaid work ?

As someone else said , there can be expected to be sexual abusers in all walks of life. What's unique about the Roman Catholic church is that the church institution itself aided and abetted the abusers in their abusing. The scale of the abuse is surely shocking and appalling to most normal people too.

MrPudding

gigino wrote: »

+1. It has been rumoured Africa / the 3rd world is where many are /were...and that will be the next big scandal......but poorly educated people can be easily bullied in to keeping quiet, and as we have seen even in western societies how things can be covered up.

it isn't a rumour.

http://www.capitalfm.co.ke/news/World/Kenya-listed-in-Ireland-clerical-abuse-probe-12926.html

lmaopml wrote: »

Well, all things considered we learn, we've been given a great opportunity to learn, and move on....

Yes. The only thing they seem to have learned is to pick the victims that are less likely to report them.

Can't abuse in 1st world countries any more? Shame. If only there were countries that weren't as developed, didn't have good media reporting, have authorities that are open to corruption, had a population that accept the authority of the church without question... If only, it would be a child raping haven.

Your church has learned nothing. it is disgusting.

Cue yet more "whataboutery" from ISAW and the rest of the apologists for this despicable organisation.

MrP

ISAW

gigino wrote: »

From your own wiki link above, which gathers different facts to yours – over 800 known abusers in over 200 Catholic institutions during a period of 35 years – should alone make it clear that it was not accidental or opportunistic but systematic. Abuse was not a failure of the system. It was the system."

The issue raised is whether that was an RCC system and whether non RCC elsewhere were worse.

It was not just sex abuse.

I agree but the issue raised WAS . When it comes to non sexual abuse the level of cerrical abusers I would argue declines even more than for sexual.


quote]
As someone else said , there can be expected to be sexual abusers in all walks of life. What's unique about the Roman Catholic church is that the church institution itself aided and abetted the abusers in their abusing.
[/quote]

But my point i
1. It is NOT unique
2, It is not widespread within the church

The Catholic Church is a "flat" organisation. In Mc donalds you have several layers of staff and management. In the RCC clergy there are priests and Bishops and that is it! You might call the Pope a "first Bishop"

Now the managers of the Institution are basically Bishops. In the last fifty years ther have been I dont know 5-10,000 Bishops. How many have been involved in covering up abuse
> 5? 10 ? not 100 surely ? 100 would be about one per cent. Now if you have a corrupt institution wher the management know about and collude in what is going on ( for example other manager or Bishoips who know about abuse and decide not to act or speak out) what level of management do you think you need to have it "widesporead" or "institutionalised" 5? 10? 50 ?

Surely not one per cent?

The scale of the abuse is surely shocking and appalling to most normal people too.

But we are not discussing how shocked or appalled. appeals to pity aren't really helpful. we are discussing "widespread" and "unique" to the RCC.

I have already stated the acceptable level is zero per cent. But that is different to "widespread" and "unique" to the RCC.

ISAW

MrPudding wrote: »

it isn't a rumour.

http://www.capitalfm.co.ke/news/World/Kenya-listed-in-Ireland-clerical-abuse-probe-12926.html

Which says

RTE highlighted allegations of abuse by priests and religious brothers in Kenya, Nigeria and South Africa,

You believe in assuming guilt by allegation in advance do you?

Yes. The only thing they seem to have learned is to pick the victims that are less likely to report them.

Who are "they"? child abusers? Why is that so surprising?

Can't abuse in 1st world countries any more? Shame. If only there were countries that weren't as developed, didn't have good media reporting, have authorities that are open to corruption, had a population that accept the authority of the church without question... If only, it would be a child raping haven.

Most child abuse in the third world is done for Military and economic reasons. child soldiers AIDS infected young girls used as prostitutes. Rape by mercinary and occupying Military. Attack by chemical weapons etc. THe RCC is active in helping such victims. If any clergy are abusing children they represent a tiny per centage of abusers. I am not aware of any Bishop covering up these tiny per centage but if they are they also represent a tiny per centage of church leadership and any so doing should be removed from their leadership positions.

Cue yet more "whataboutery" from ISAW and the rest of the apologists for this despicable organisation.

you have not produced even ONE case! Just allegations! And you have not produced ANY evidence that there is an organisational policy or plan to hide cases of abuse.

If you are so certain of a plan in which the organisation of the RCC is operating where is your evidence of it?

gigino

ISAW wrote: »

It is not widespread within the church

The Irish government in its report in 2009 found sexual abuse, and cover ups, within the Irish Roman Catholic Church " endemic". Their word, not mine.

If you look up the cambridge dictionary online, its defines endemic as follows :

especially of a disease or a condition, regularly found and very common among a particular group or in a particular area
Malaria is endemic in many of the hotter regions of the world.


As someone else said, "Cue yet more "whataboutery" from ISAW and the rest of the apologists for this despicable organisation."

gimmebroadband

The previous Government abused tax-payers for years, and lied about turning a corner! The same Government that taxes millions of people who are destitute and can ill afford to put a roof over their heads and food on the table. The same Goverment that allows to have the sick and dying lying on gurnies in hallways and corridors. The same Goverment who cuts the welfare money of poor people to shore up banks and the bank balances of the rich and elite, and this is happening on a Global scale! Their polices affects every man, woman and child, not 5.8 percent etc. A despicable organisation that puts the antics of some of the clergy in the shade! :mad:

lmaopml

MrPudding wrote: »

it isn't a rumour.

http://www.capitalfm.co.ke/news/World/Kenya-listed-in-Ireland-clerical-abuse-probe-12926.html

Yes. The only thing they seem to have learned is to pick the victims that are less likely to report them.

Can't abuse in 1st world countries any more? Shame. If only there were countries that weren't as developed, didn't have good media reporting, have authorities that are open to corruption, had a population that accept the authority of the church without question... If only, it would be a child raping haven.

Your church has learned nothing. it is disgusting.

Cue yet more "whataboutery" from ISAW and the rest of the apologists for this despicable organisation.

MrP

Mr.P, ISAW is quite right to point out that peadophila is something that is happening all over. It's highly ignorant and biased to believe that it's Catholic Church centric only. Ignorance like that leads to intolerance and hatred, and it's astoundingly unfair and completely telling if somebody doesn't even want to hear any truth. You begin to wonder if protection is on their mind and empowering children, or if hatred dominates and blinds. Sticking your fingers in your ears, as we have learned in the Church doesn't make the truth go away no matter how hard you try...

Some members of the Church and her hierarchy were absolutely without a shadow of doubt wrong in every single way to move these would be abusers around and cover up abuse - it was disgusting. Hating every single member of the Church, and there are billions of us who weren't abused and do good every single day is missing the point and biased in the extreme.

Your article that you posted disgusts me too. I don't think any amount of apologies will ever make up to those children who were abused - many of them our own children in this country. By all means justice should seek justice and that is a process that we are all engaged in collectively as a society, those in the Church and those in the HSE, the Guards etc. This is a positive thing. The most important thing to me as a member of the Church is to protect and empower those children and try to understand with some kind of clarity rather than a witchhunt the path that led to enabling those who abuse - make sure it never is allowed to happen again, inside the Church and for the greater good of society in on the outside too...

It's ridiculous to me anyway for you to say that anybody in the Catholic church is an apologist for Peadophils, you are off by a long mile imo. I don't think some of the victims of abuse would even agree with that, and it's extremely hurtful to those of us who are pro-active that hatred for this disgusting behaviour is centring itself with blind resolution on us as a bullseye.

MrPudding

lmaopml wrote: »

Mr.P, ISAW is quite right to point out that peadophila is something that is happening all over. It's highly ignorant and biased to believe that it's Catholic Church centric only.

This is where we have a difference of opinion. I think it is perfectly reasonable to concentrate of clerical sex abuse when one is talking about clerical sex abuse. This is not to reduce the impact or wrongness of other sex abuse, simply concentrating one's attentions to a particular area. So, having identified a particular area of interest, in this case clerical child sex abuse, it seems reasonable to further focus on a particular section of that, say for example a section that is of particular interest in a particular country or has a lot written about it. Again, not unreasonable and again not taking away from any abuse carried out by other organisations.

lmaopml wrote: »

Ignorance like that leads to intolerance and hatred, and it's astoundingly unfair and completely telling if somebody doesn't even want to hear any truth.

It is not ignorance. I am well aware of abuse i other circles, it just so happens that in a thread about clerical sex abuse I am more interested in clerical sex about, rather than whataboutery.

lmaopml wrote: »

You begin to wonder if protection is on their mind and empowering children, or if hatred dominates and blinds. Sticking your fingers in your ears, as we have learned in the Church doesn't make the truth go away no matter how hard you try...

I will freely admit, I despise the rcc. And I mean really despise, with every fibre of my being. It disgusts me, everything about it, but leaving that aside, my hatred does not change what he church did and what it might still be doing in 3rd world countries.

lmaopml wrote: »

Some members of the Church and her hierarchy were absolutely without a shadow of doubt wrong in every single way to move these would be abusers around and cover up abuse - it was disgusting. Hating every single member of the Church, and there are billions of us who weren't abused and do good every single day is missing the point and biased in the extreme.

I don't think I hate every member. In fact I know I don't. My mother is a member, and I don't hate her. I hate and despise the organisation, the actual church, not all its members.

MrP