The Clerical Child Abuse Thread (merged)

gigino

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

Where's your evidence being celibate was a cause of the abuse ?

so much abuse being caused by such a small proportion of the population as the celibate one.;)

People through life experiences and from talking to relatives / friends form certain opinions. No great surprise given the level of abuse by celibates a Wall Street Journal-NBC News poll found that 64 percent of those queried thought Catholic priests "frequently'' abused children."

Bob Cratchet

gigino wrote: »

so much abuse being caused by such a small proportion of the population as the celibate one.;)

Whats the offence rate in comparison to the rest of the population ?

gigino

Difficult to quantify as there was so much cover up in the RCC church, and peope scared / warned not to complain about their better educated, spiritual advisors. Many victims never complained, and were hushed up / told it was anti-catholic to even suggest a Priest was guilty of wrong doing etc. But in the poll they gave their opinions / experiences. Thats because many Catholics if they were not abused themselves had a relative or friend who was. Some of the prisoners in the Magdalene Laundries may say all the nuns were abusers ( though not sexually ), in that they all worked the prisoners hard 12 hours a day without pay, and kept them under lock + key etc.

The inquiry which the UN has forced our government to conduct in to these 4 RC institutions in Ireland can only shed light on the offence rate you enquire about, at least in those 4 institutions.

Bob Cratchet

gigino wrote: »

Difficult to quantify as there was so much cover up in the RCC church, and peope scared / warned not to complain about their better educated, spiritual advisors. Many victims never complained, and were hushed up / told it was anti-catholic to even suggest a Priest was guilty of wrong doing etc. But in the poll they gave their opinions / experiences. Thats because many Catholics if they were not abused themselves had a relative or friend who was. Some of the prisoners in the Magdalene Laundries may say all the nuns were abusers ( though not sexually ), in that they all worked the prisoners hard 12 hours a day without pay, and kept them under lock + key etc.

The inquiry which the UN has forced our government to conduct in to these 4 RC institutions in Ireland can only shed light on the offence rate you enquire about, at least in those 4 institutions.

So in other words you have no evidence, no statistics and no facts ?

ISAW

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

So in other words you have no evidence, no statistics and no facts ?

He has been shown that they show the opposite of his claims. But he will no doubt be back lying abut the states later in the thread since he never correct the errors he was shown and just reposts them every now and again.

gigino

Bob Cratchet wrote: »

So in other words you have no evidence, no statistics and no facts ?

Funny thats sounds like the words someone who complained about an abusing Priest was "fobbed off with", and told not to complain if they were a good catholic and wanted to get in to heaven.
There is plenty of evidence of abuse in the RCC, and even though up until a week ago the 4 RC institutions involved in the Magdalene Laundty controversy would not even answer letters ( according to RTE 13 days ago ) , thankfully since then they said they will co-operate with the enquiry which the UN committee on torture has forced our government to undertake. See how hard it is to get statistics and facts out of the RCC?

Its time someone did a study in to celibacy / RC abuse, give the high incidence of abuse in the RCC church. ( one of the many pointers is how "endemic" is the word our government used in relation to abuse + cover ups specifically in the Irish R.C. church , in its 2009 report findings. ). Bear in mind celibacy, like many practices in the RCC church, was not part of the Christian Church in the early centuries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerica...atholic_Church)
Maybe the human species was never meant to be celibate, with its pent up sexual and emotional frustrations?

Fanny Cradock

gigino wrote: »

People through life experiences and from talking to relatives / friends form certain opinions. No great surprise given the level of abuse by celibates a Wall Street Journal-NBC News poll found that 64 percent of those queried thought Catholic priests "frequently'' abused children."

Why do you keep repeating the same statistic again and again whilst also ignoring the thrust of the Newsweek article you took it from? What argument is this opinion poll supposed to support?

PDN

gigino wrote: »

Its time someone did a study in to celibacy / RC abuse, give the high incidence of abuse in the RCC church. ( one of the many pointers is how "endemic" is the word our government used in relation to abuse + cover ups specifically in the Irish R.C. church , in its 2009 report findings. ). Bear in mind celibacy, like many practices in the RCC church, was not part of the Christian Church in the early centuries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerica...atholic_Church)
Maybe the human species was never meant to be celibate, with its pent up sexual and emotional frustrations?

This misuse of statistics reminds me of the fact that incidences of drowning have been clearly demonstrated to be very much higher in areas where there are a high volume of sales of ice cream.

Of course the reason for that is because most people drown on beaches, and people on beaches tend to buy ice cream. But anyone attempting to use these statistics to argue that a causal relationship exists between eating ice cream and drowning would be either an idiot or a liar.

ISAW

gigino wrote: »

Funny thats sounds like the words someone who complained about an abusing Priest was "fobbed off with", and told not to complain if they were a good catholic and wanted to get in to heaven.

Please look up "shifting the burden of proof" under logical fallacy
If you claim it you prove it!
you also remind me of this ( which I have referred to before but I assume you did't look up.
http://www.snpp.com/episodes/3F20.html

Homer: Not a bear in sight. The Bear Patrol must be working like a
charm.
Lisa: That's spacious reasoning, Dad.
Homer: Thank you, dear.
Lisa: By your logic I could claim that this rock keeps tigers away.
Homer: Oh, how does it work?
Lisa: It doesn't work.
Homer: Uh-huh.
Lisa: It's just a stupid rock.
Homer: Uh-huh.
Lisa: But I don't see any tigers around, do you?
[Homer thinks of this, then pulls out some money]
Homer: Lisa, I want to buy your rock.
[Lisa refuses at first, then takes the exchange]

sorry Gigino I don't want to buy your rock

There is plenty of evidence of abuse in the RCC,

More sweeping statements! Look that up while you are at that logical fallacy site.
What do you mean by "plenty"? Do you mean a hundred times less than non clerical sexual abuse ( a minority of a minority of which are pre pubescent Children) ?

and even though up until a week ago the 4 RC institutions involved in the Magdalene Laundty controversy would not even answer letters ( according to RTE 13 days ago ) ,

Duh! 13 days is TWO weeks ago! Learn to count will you?
Where did RTE say noone responsible for the laundries had ever answered any letters to them?

thankfully since then they said they will co-operate with the enquiry which the UN committee on torture has forced our government to undertake. See how hard it is to get statistics and facts out of the RCC?

Under what law does the UN have any enforcement in Ireland?

Its time someone did a study in to celibacy / RC abuse,

People have and you ignored any information and references you were given! why? Because you wan't to believe otherwise and you will lyingly inflate any stats to suit your agenda.

give the high incidence of abuse in the RCC church.

How "high" would that be? Less than a hundred times less than non clerical child sex offenders? does that seem "high" to you?

( one of the many pointers is how "endemic" is the word our government used in relation to abuse + cover ups specifically in the Irish R.C. church , in its 2009 report findings. )

No it didn't! Where? You didn't read the report again. You just inflated your lies about it!
You took your story from Henry Mc Donald who care from the old Official IRA/Marxist movement Eamon Gilmore and other current labour Politicians did. It is hardly likely he would be hbiased in favour of the RCC .

But what does he say about "endemic" ?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/may/20/irish-catholic-schools-child-abuse-claims

Gigino reads probably no further than a headline.

The report found that molestation and rape were "endemic" in boys' facilities, chiefly run by the Christian Brothers order,

Not "endemic" in the whole church or in other facilities!

I went to a Christian Brothers School. Rape or sexual molestation were not "endemic" there"!

Her is what the report actually says:
http://www.childabusecommission.ie/rpt/04-06.php

6.18 Sexual abuse was endemic in boys’ institutions. The situation in girls’ institutions was different. Although girls were subjected to predatory sexual abuse by male employees or visitors or in outside placements, sexual abuse was not systemic in girls’ schools.
6.19 It is impossible to determine the full extent of sexual abuse committed in boys’ schools.

6.04The capital and financial commitment made by the religious Congregations was a major factor in prolonging the system of institutional care of children in the State. From the mid 1920s in England, smaller more family-like settings were established and they were seen as providing a better standard of care for children in need. In Ireland, however, the Industrial School system thrived.

6.06The system of inspection by the Department of Education was fundamentally flawed and incapable of being effective.

So the institutions took up the tab and the State let them run everything themselves.

. Bear in mind celibacy, like many practices in the RCC church, was not part of the Christian Church in the early centuries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerica...atholic_Church)

In fact it was always part but not a required stipulation for priests. So what?

Maybe the human species was never meant to be celibate, with its pent up sexual and emotional frustrations?

You are asserting celibacy caused this? where is your evidence? The Deli Lama is pent up and sexually frustrated is he?

gimmebroadband

Gigino in another thread about the Magdalene abuse cited that David Quinn was biased in his report in the Irish Independant, when I provided a link to the audio conversation between the department of Justice and the UN as quoted by Mr Quinn, it was duly ignored!

Festus

gigino wrote: »

Its time someone did a study in to that, give the high incidence of abuse in the RCC church. ( "endemic" is the word our giovernment used in relation to same, in its 2009 report findings. ).

The incidence of abuse in the Catholic Church is far lower than in any other segment of society as evidenced in the SAVI report but wholly glossed over by the government, the media and certain axe grinders.

You write as if child abuse was something new. It is not. You write as if the clergy are the only people who abuse and that it is part and parcel of being a priest. They're not and it is not.

gigino wrote: »

Bear in mind celibacy, like many practices in the RCC church, was only introduced between the 4th and 11th century AD.

Bear in mind that the SAVI report shows a far higher incidence of abuse being perpetrated by non-celibates than celibates.

gigino wrote: »

Maybe the human species was never meant to be celibate, with its pent up sexual and emotional frustrations?

Speak for yourself.

Humans were never meant to degrade themselves like animals and let their passions run wild.
Perhaps you belong to that school that thinks that humans are nothing more than animals and animal instinct should be allowed take its course.
If so there are organizations that will help put you straight.

Granted celibacy does not help increase the population and it is not for everyone. Celibacy is a choice the clergy make. Most candidates should know if they are capable of coping with it before they sign up and those who test the candidates likewise should ensure they are capable of coping with it before admitting them.

This attitude of yours that all humans are like sex obsessed hormone addled school boys is tiresome and demeaning.

gigino wrote: »

The only 4 Irish institutions the UN committee on Torture ever ordered an investigation in to were all run by celibate religous people. http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0607/magdalene.html

The UN huh! One of the biggest abusers of children and women in the world. Not quite the organization to draw on for support.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/5260210.stm

http://arrow.dit.ie/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1001&context=aaschsslrep

http://www.ethiopianreview.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=22338

http://www.terroritory.com/2008/01/23/un-child-sex-slave-scandals-continue/

gigino

Festus wrote: »

Bear in mind that the SAVI report shows a far higher incidence of abuse being perpetrated by non-celibates than celibates.

Bear in mind that in the SAVI report 5.8% of boys sexually abused said they had been abused by clergy / religous. Bear in mind this figure would be higher but for those afraid to speak out againt their more educated spiritual / religous advisors...those who told them to keep quiet and that the Priest had been moved on etc. Bear in mind Priests are currently only 00.06% of the population, and falling.

Festus wrote: »

The UN huh! One of the biggest abusers of children and women in the world.

lol. The UN is not perfect but at least it investigates irregularites properly in its organisation, and it treats women equally. To call it one of the biggest abusers of women and children in the world is a bit rich coming from someone who defends the track record of abuse in the RCC

gimmebroadband

[QUOTE=gigino;72871603


lol. The UN is not perfect but at least it investigates irregularites properly in its organisation, and it treats women equally. To call it one of the biggest abusers of women and children in the world is a bit rich coming from someone who defends the track record of abuse in the RCC[/QUOTE]

The UN investigates irregularities in other groups whilst ignoring 'irregularities' on it's own doorstep, probably have their own coverups as well!! :rolleyes:

I don't defend any kind of abuse by anyone, including clergy, but I do object to the OTT frenzy by the media and others!!

gigino

Festus wrote: »

Celibacy is a choice the clergy make.

Celibacy is the choice the RC church makes only this last 1000 to 1600 years.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerica...atholic_Church)
Celibacy is only"the choice" since then , as you put it, but at what cost to society ? Maybe the human species was never meant to be celibate, with its pent up sexual and emotional frustrations? Forced celibacy suits some people fine. Others lead lives which appear celibate but are / were not ( eg Fr. Cleary, Bishop Casey and much of the clergy in the 3rd world ). As long as its consenting adults + nobody is harmed thats ok with me. However this thread is about clerical child abuse...and for some clergy, there may be complex reasons why they abused, but perhaps forced celibacy was a contributory factor in some cases.

Festus

gigino wrote: »

Celibacy is the choice the RC church makes only this last 1000 to 1600 years.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerica...atholic_Church)
Celibacy is only"the choice" since then , as you put it, but at what cost to society ? Maybe the human species was never meant to be celibate, with its pent up sexual and emotional frustrations? Forced celibacy suits some people fine. Others lead lives which appear celibate but are / were not ( eg Fr. Cleary, Bishop Casey and much of the clergy in the 3rd world ). As long as its consenting adults + nobody is harmed thats ok with me. However this thread is about clerical child abuse...and for some clergy, there may be complex reasons why they abused, but perhaps forced celibacy was a contributory factor in some cases.

It is not "forced celibacy". The clergy take this vow willingly. This "forced celibacy" exists only in your mind along with a lot of other myths.

Apparently the partners of both Fr Cleary and Bishop Casey were consenting adults so what's your problem if that kind of thing is ok with you? A little disingenuous on your part is it not.

Festus

gigino wrote: »

Bear in mind that in the SAVI report 5.8% of boys sexually abused said they had been abused by clergy / religous. Bear in mind this figure would be higher but for those afraid to speak out againt their more educated spiritual / religous advisors...those who told them to keep quiet and that the Priest had been moved on etc. Bear in mind Priests are currently only 00.06% of the population, and falling.

Yes and 19.7% said they were abused by a babysitter and 24.3% said they were abused by a teacher.
Both measures are significantly higher than the 5.8% massaged figure you love so much.

Who's going after the babysitters and teachers with the same zeal the clergy are pursued?

And these figures where collected anonymously so no fear of speaking out against anyone, and an increased possibility they lied.

gigino wrote: »

lol. The UN is not perfect but at least it investigates irregularites properly in its organisation, and it treats women equally. To call it one of the biggest abusers of women and children in the world is a bit rich coming from someone who defends the track record of abuse in the RCC

I am not defending it. I am correcting your erroneous arguments.

As for the UN. Present your arguments regarding the equally treatment of women to a 14 yr old African child prostitute who has been gang raped at gunpoint by a bunch of soldiers wearing a UN badge and see if she agrees with you.

gigino

Festus wrote: »

The clergy take this vow willingly.

Only in the past 1000 to 1600 years ...in the early centuries of the Christian church nobody suggested or forced their priests to be celibate. Celibacy is an alien concept to most if not all species.
If people wish to become Priests in the R. C. church, for whatever reason, they are forced to be officially celibate. Of course many are not eg Fr. Cleary, Bishop Casey + others, and many have " housekeepers", men friends etc. In the 3rd world its more open. But officially they are celibate.

gigino

Festus wrote: »

Both measures are significantly higher than the 5.8% massaged figure you love so much.

I do not love the 5.8% figure. It saddens me that Priests are only 00.06% of the population and yet 5.8% of boys who were abused sexually say it was by clergy / religous, despite the fact clergy / religous normally does not have access to boys bedrooms etc.

Festus wrote: »

As for the UN. Present your arguments regarding the equally treatment of women to a 14 yr old African child prostitute who has been gang raped at gunpoint by a bunch of soldiers wearing a UN badge and see if she agrees with you.

If such an incident as above did occur, it still does not make the UN "one of the biggest abusers of women and children in the world", which is the claim you made earlier. At least the UN investigates openly incidents such as the above, and they are very rare compared to the crimes committed by Priests / brothers in the RC church. The UN does not cover it up by telling the victim to keep quiet if they want to go to heaven. The UN does not move the perpetrators of the crime elsewhere without punishing them for any wrongdoings.

ISAW

gigino wrote: »

Bear in mind that in the SAVI report 5.8% of boys sexually abused said they had been abused by clergy / religous.

LIAR! You have been shown the number was a sample of six offenders in 700. You added in the twelve "teachers of religion" who are not religious clergy!

you have been shown this was an opinion telephone survey and is not a result of any convictions or charges or verifiable.

Bear in mind this figure would be higher but for those afraid to speak out againt their more educated spiritual / religous advisors...

And you evidence for that false allegation is...?

those who told them to keep quiet and that the Priest had been moved on etc.

So you are saying that the numbers of the survey which you are lying about are actually not to be trusted anyway because you believe they should be higher than the inflated lies you invented?

Bear in mind Priests are currently only 00.06% of the population, and falling.

And you evidence for that is? And you are aware that this survey relates to Ireland in the past when there were tens of thousands of clergy/religious in Ireland?

lol. The UN is not perfect but at least it investigates irregularites properly in its organisation, and it treats women equally.

Pull the other one! Your use of the words "UN" are called an "Appeal to Authority" Ironically you use one Authority to argue that depending on Authorities is wrong! You contradict yourself yet again!

is a bit rich coming from someone who defends the track record of abuse in the RCC

How is anyone here defending abuse in any form?

gigino wrote: »

I do not love the 5.8% figure. It saddens me that Priests are only 00.06% of the population and yet 5.8% of boys who were abused sexually say it was by clergy / religous, despite the fact clergy / religous normally does not have access to boys bedrooms etc.

Liar! the 0.06 per cent is today . what was it in the 1950s to which the report relates?
Liar! The 5.8 per cent is not clergy! it is clergy plus teachers. There are six clergy involved and twelve teachers. It does not say if these were RC clergy!

You just keep lying about the figures!

ISAW

gigino wrote: »

Only in the past 1000 to 1600 years

wroing! Clergy always took vows.

...in the early centuries of the Christian church nobody suggested or forced their priests to be celibate.

Wrong!
1. they are not forced now they willingly do it.
2. There are some married clergy.
3. In the orthodox tradition Priests are married but monks are celebate and Bishops are selected from monks.

Celibacy is an alien concept to most if not all species.

So is not attacking others and tearing them apart. Humans have learned the wisdom of controlling themselves however.

If people wish to become Priests in the R. C. church, for whatever reason, they are forced to be officially celibate. Of course many are not eg Fr. Cleary, Bishop Casey + others, and many have " housekeepers", men friends etc. In the 3rd world its more open. But officially they are celibate.

You are confusing constancy and celibacy. Priests can be married in the RCC.

gigino

ISAW wrote: »

Priests can be married in the RCC.

Existing RCC priests who are unmarried cannot marry. Roman Catholics cannot marry and then become Priests.

ISAW wrote: »

Clergy always took vows.

Clergy were not celibate in the early centuries of the Christian church. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clerical_celibacy_(Catholic_Church)
Like many practices in the RCC that changed over the years.

gigino

ISAW wrote: »

LIAR! You have been shown the number was a sample of six offenders in 700. You added in the twelve "teachers of religion" who are not religious clergy!

you have been shown this was an opinion telephone survey and is not a result of any convictions or charges or verifiable.


And you evidence for that false allegation is...?



So you are saying that the numbers of the survey which you are lying about are actually not to be trusted anyway because you believe they should be higher than the inflated lies you invented?



And you evidence for that is? And you are aware that this survey relates to Ireland in the past when there were tens of thousands of clergy/religious in Ireland?



Pull the other one! Your use of the words "UN" are called an "Appeal to Authority" Ironically you use one Authority to argue that depending on Authorities is wrong! You contradict yourself yet again!




How is anyone here defending abuse in any form?





Liar! the 0.06 per cent is today . what was it in the 1950s to which the report relates?
Liar! The 5.8 per cent is not clergy! it is clergy plus teachers. There are six clergy involved and twelve teachers. It does not say if these were RC clergy!

You just keep lying about the figures!

I am not lyng about it. See the long and detailed savi report http://www.drcc.ie/about/savi.pdf Top of page 89.
As regards the percentage of the population who are RC priests , I used the present tense. I gave you the links already - its approx 3000 people.

Festus

gigino wrote: »

Only in the past 1000 to 1600 years ...in the early centuries of the Christian church nobody suggested or forced their priests to be celibate. Celibacy is an alien concept to most if not all species.
If people wish to become Priests in the R. C. church, for whatever reason, they are forced to be officially celibate. Of course many are not eg Fr. Cleary, Bishop Casey + others, and many have " housekeepers", men friends etc. In the 3rd world its more open. But officially they are celibate.

Get real. Sex for reproduction is known in all species. Sex for pleasure alone is an alien concept to all but a few species.
For most if not all species chastity between breeding cycles is the norm.

And as already mentioned celibacy is not "forced" anymore than the priesthood is "forced". If a man wants to become a priest or a monk celibacy is part of the deal. If is accepted willingly or he doesn't sign up.
If a priest or monk has issues with celibacy he can take it up with his bishop or abbot and request permission to renounce his vows and leave the priesthood.

Festus

gigino wrote: »

I do not love the 5.8% figure. It saddens me that Priests are only 00.06% of the population and yet 5.8% of boys who were abused sexually say it was by clergy / religous, despite the fact clergy / religous normally does not have access to boys bedrooms etc.

It saddens me that you and your kind seem happy enough to let the majority of pedophiles, the teachers, baby sitters, coaches and parents off the hook and go blaming the clergy for all the ills you perceive.

Child abuse is wrong no matter where it happens or who the perpetrator is but concentrating your efforts and energies on the clergy alone is not doing you or your case any favours.

gigino wrote: »

If such an incident as above did occur, it still does not make the UN "one of the biggest abusers of women and children in the world", which is the claim you made earlier. At least the UN investigates openly incidents such as the above, and they are very rare compared to the crimes committed by Priests / brothers in the RC church.

Not from what I have seen. The UN is almost as bad as the Russian army for rape and pillage.

gigino wrote: »

The UN does not cover it up by telling the victim to keep quiet if they want to go to heaven. The UN does not move the perpetrators of the crime elsewhere without punishing them for any wrongdoings.

They have guns and other assorted weapons so they don't need to issue threats. Simples.
The UN only deals with issues that come into the public domain. The rest of the time it is covered up.

ISAW

gigino wrote: »

I am not lyng about it. See the long and detailed savi report http://www.drcc.ie/about/savi.pdf Top of page 89.
As regards the percentage of the population who are RC priests , I used the present tense. I gave you the links already - its approx 3000 people.

I was the person who first supplied the SAVI link. I read the report and I believe you didn't! You just lifted a stat you thought people might swallow.

You are lying. you have been shown since message 776 when I first explained you were lying that

the 5.8 % applies to Ministers plus teachers of religion as a subject
The Ministers number is given as 1.9 % for boys
"boys" include boys up to age 17
"Ministers" are not only Roman Catholic Ministers
The number of people under this category is SIX
The cases are from a phone poll and not from any verifiable source.

It is a lie to allege 5.8% of sexual abusers of pre pubecent boys are Roman Catholic priests and to suggest that I or anyone else is assisting in a cover up of such a stat because the stat isn't real! Other reports and you have been given ample opportunity to read them concur with the "less than one per cent" figure.

You continually say "5.8% of boys who were abused sexually say it was by clergy / religous"

You are well aware clergy =Ministers of all religions and not just roman Catholic
religious = "teachers of the religion subject" and not clergy

You just keep spouting the 5.8 % lie and other made up stats as if they were true.

gigino

Festus wrote: »

It saddens me that you and your kind seem happy enough to let the majority of pedophiles, the teachers, baby sitters, coaches and parents off the hook and go blaming the clergy for all the ills you perceive.

I am not happy enough to let anyone off the hook for abuse. However this thread is about "clerical child abuse". That is what is discussed here.
The survey by newsweek showed that most people thought the RCC "frequenty" abused children. Peoples experience is such that most people do not think ordinary schools or McDonalds "frequently" abuse children.

Festus wrote: »

Not from what I have seen. The UN is almost as bad as the Russian army for rape and pillage.

Are the Irish army not part of the UN peacekeeping forces ? You are saying our army " is almost as bad as the Russian army for rape and pillage."? Earlier you called the UN "one of the biggest abusers of women and children in the world " ! Do you know something the rest of the world does not ?

gigino

ISAW wrote: »

It is a lie to allege 5.8% of sexual abusers of pre pubecent boys are Roman Catholic priests

Nobody said or alleged that, and certainly not me. I did say that the SAVI report found 5.8% of all boys who were abused sexually say it was by clergy / religous. Its there in the SAVI report, those exact words, page 88 + page 89.

Festus

ISAW wrote: »

I was the person who first supplied the SAVI link. I read the report and I believe you didn't! You just lifted a stat you thought people might swallow.

You are lying. you have been shown since message 776 when I first explained you were lying that

the 5.8 % applies to Ministers plus teachers of religion as a subject
The Ministers number is given as 1.9 % for boys
"boys" include boys up to age 17
"Ministers" are not only Roman Catholic Ministers
The number of people under this category is SIX
The cases are from a phone poll and not from any verifiable source.

It is a lie to allege 5.8% of sexual abusers of pre pubecent boys are Roman Catholic priests and to suggest that I or anyone else is assisting in a cover up of such a stat because the stat isn't real! Other reports and you have been given ample opportunity to read them concur with the "less than one per cent" figure.

You continually say "5.8% of boys who were abused sexually say it was by clergy / religous"

You are well aware clergy =Ministers of all religions and not just roman Catholic
religious = "teachers of the religion subject" and not clergy

You just keep spouting the 5.8 % lie and other made up stats as if they were true.

hear hear! Well said ISAW.

Festus

gigino wrote: »

I am not happy enough to let anyone off the hook for abuse. However this thread is about "clerical child abuse". That is what is discussed here.
The survey by newsweek showed that most people thought the RCC "frequenty" abused children. Peoples experience is such that most people do not think ordinary schools or McDonalds "frequently" abuse children.

Facts are what matter. Not what people or Newsweek think. Hearsay is not evidence or an acceptable argument.

gigino wrote: »

Are the Irish army not part of the UN peacekeeping forces ? You are saying our army " is almost as bad as the Russian army for rape and pillage."? Earlier you called the UN "one of the biggest abusers of women and children in the world " ! Do you know something the rest of the world does not ?

I am saying the UN facilitates abuse by putting ill disciplined solders in to places where they can do bad things.

http://www.whale.to/b/peace1.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2988988.stm

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=160422

http://mg.co.za/article/2003-06-14-irish-troops-in-prostitution-scandal-asmara

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?241074-UN-Peacekeepers-and-Rape

http://info-wars.org/2010/03/27/war-crimes-by-u-n-peacekeepers/


using your argumentative methodology am I not right to think that all Irish and UN soldiers are testosterone saturated rapists and pornographers?

gigino

Festus wrote: »

I am saying the UN facilitates abuse by putting ill disciplined solders in to places where they can do bad things.

Earlier you called the UN "one of the biggest abusers of women and children in the world " !

I ask you again - do you know something the rest of the world does not ? Because most of the world does not think of the UN like that. You said the UN " is almost as bad as the Russian army for rape and pillage." What track record have the tens of thousands of Irish people who served in the UN peace keeping forces - I'm astonished you think they served as part of "one of the biggest abusers of women and children in the world " !

While most people in the newsweek poll are of the opinion that the Catholic church frequently abuses children, I think our soldiers as part of the UN behaved very well and are a credit to our country. Not many would think they are "one of the biggest abusers of women and children in the world " !

It seems childish to me that you have it in for the UN, now that their commitee on torture has told our government to commence a statutory inquiry in to the 4 RC institutions involved in the Magdalene Laundries.