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The Clerical Child Abuse Thread (merged)
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irishtimes.comThe Irish Times wrote:
Priest apologises to abuse victim
A court has heard an apology from a 79-year-old former priest to a woman for the "torture" of sexual abuse he subjected her to from the age of 11.
Paul McGennis, of Holy Cross Diocesan Centre, Clonliffe Road, Dublin 3, pleaded guilty to eight sample counts of indecent assault on the female at two locations in the city on dates between June 1980 and May 1984.
Judge Desmond Hogan remanded McGennis on continuing bail and will sentence him at the end of the month.
The court heard the abuse took place in the priest’s house in one Dublin parish and continued after he moved to another in the city.
Sgt Brian Lyons told Martina Baxter BL prosecuting, the ex-priest would always have chocolate in the house and would give the girl sweets and toys but when she began to get older he would give her money after having sex.
The woman said the abuse continued because she was a child and was scared.
She said she would “get messages” for McGennis and that the abuse began when she was late returning from an errand on one occasion and he “gave out” to her. The woman said the abuse would take place almost every fortnight in the bedroom of the parish house and in a waiting room.
She said when she would return from running errands a housekeeper would let her in and although not in the same room, was often present in the house while the abuse took place. She said the abuse continued after he moved to a different address and when she began having her period he started to use condoms.
Sgt Lyons said the girl would be crying during the abuse as he was hurting her and she could not breathe as she was asthmatic. She said that she would ask McGennis to stop but he continued.
She complained to gardaí a number of years ago after receiving counselling following a suicide attempt.
When interviewed by gardaí in 2009, McGennis denied the allegations but he pleaded guilty at Dublin Circuit Criminal Court this year.
McGennis was called to the witness box, where he apologised for the "torture" he had put her through.
“I would like to apologise most sincerely to (the victim) and her family for the stress and torture I have put them through and for the fact that my initial denials must have made it worse. For that early denial I apologise profoundly to the family,” he added.
In her victim impact statement, the victim said he had “taken away my innocence, my childhood memories, my chance of an education and my prospects for the future”.
The abuse continued to threaten her marriage and denied her the chance to have children, she said. It left her without self-esteem or the ability to form and maintain relationships.
The court heard McGennis has four previous convictions for indecent assault and has served a prison sentence.
On June 24th, 1997 he was sentenced to 18 months for two indecent assaults for an offence in 1960 and received an 18-month sentence.
On June 27th, 1997 he was sentenced for two indecent assaults occurring between May 1977 and 1979 and received nine months concurrent to the other sentences. He appealed these sentences and served nine months for the offences.
My question, at the end of that piece, is how he received such short sentences in '97, given the number of assaults he was convicted of?0 -
irishtimes.com
My question, at the end of that piece, is how he received such short sentences in '97, given the number of assaults he was convicted of?
well
1 that was 15 years ago sentencing is relative for example you might remember about ten years ago a man convicted of manslaughter wh walked up to a downed burglar and shot him in the dead got six years appealed I think and end up out of jail in eighteen months to two years.
I know of another case in the eighties where a man in his seventies shot someone dead and didn't serve any time. I personally knew both the man and the person he shot.
2. You don't know what the charges were or what the conviction was
have you any other cases from 1980 with which to compare
3. victim statements didn't exist before sentencing then.
I don't understand your point. Are you suggesting the Bishop or some other church conspiracy secretly got in touch with the judge and got him to be lax?0 -
Actually I did ; many many pages ago I even went to the trouble of quoting not one but two different dictionaries.For a start you should look up the meaning of "endemic".
No, a better analogy explain the word endemic ( as the Irish government used the word endemic to describe abuse and cover up in the Irish RCC, in its 2009 report / investigations, after widespreat concern about abuse in the RC church ) would be "belonging exclusively or confined to a particular place" An example of the word endemic being used as follows : Malaria is endemic to certain areas of the tropics.That priests have a preference for black socks over really really really really really dark navy could be described as being endemic to priests.
stranger things have happened in Ireland.Are you suggesting the Bishop or some other church conspiracy secretly got in touch with the judge and got him to be lax?0 -
The Roman Catholic church is one of the largest organisations in the world involving billions of people.
Actually the size of the Roman Catholic church world wide is just over a billion people ( actually 1,100,000,000 ) . My query is not the size of the church but rather the past behaviour of its employees i.e. the Priests. Newsweek magazine found that 4 % of the 110,000 Priests in the USA between 1950 and 1992 alone, were accused of child sex abuse. Is there any other large organisation in the world with ZERO point 4% of its professional full time employees accused of such abuse, never mind 4% ?
Note : for statistical purposes, lets make it a fair comparison by comparing it with organisations of thousands ....not a home with 3 people in Belfast , or an organisation of volunteers like the Boy scouts. There must be hundreds of thousands of organisations in the world : how many - if any - have had 4% of their employees accused of child sex abuse, like the 110,000 strong RCC in the States ?0 -
irishtimes.com
My question, at the end of that piece, is how he received such short sentences in '97, given the number of assaults he was convicted of?
That's something you need to take up with the law of the land, the judiciary, and the governement. It has nothing to do with the Church.
In this state the default it to set sentences to run concurrently, not consecutively.
If you commit ten offences each carrying a mandatory ten year sentence you serve ten years, usually less the time spent in custody before the trial. The option exists to suspend some of the sentence too so even less time is spent imprisioned.0 -
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Source?Actually the size of the Roman Catholic church world wide is just over a billion people ( actually 1,100,000,000 ) .
And its involvement also deals with many pagans and non Christians and non Catholics for example in China Africa etc.
Do you know of any other organisations with over a billlion members?
If you are going to refine the definitions so much to include "over a billion members" how do you suppose your comment will have any relevance?My query is not the size of the church
Oh but it is! Since you added size to your earlier definition. Your original comment was on no organisations having more then 0.4 per cent of people accused of abuse ( not that that claim gas any relevance anyway unless per cent of accusation= percent of actual abusers but it doesn't )but rather the past behaviour of its employees i.e. the Priests. Newsweek magazine found that 4 % of the 110,000 Priests in the USA between 1950 and 1992 alone, were accused of child sex abuse.
Being accuses is in no way any evidence of " past behaviour of its employee" . It is only evidence of the level of accusations.Is there any other large organisation in the world with ZERO point 4% of its professional full time employees accused of such abuse, never mind 4% ?
Yes you have been shown them. American Scouts.
But again so what? I'm sure large percentages of Jews in the 1930s were accused of cannibalism and all sorts of evil things.
How large is large?Note : for statistical purposes, lets make it a fair comparison by comparing it with organisations of thousands
Changing it! You didnt claim that originally! Your original claim was wrong and you can't admit that so you try the "only true scotsman" fallacy!....not a home with 3 people in Belfast ,
three convictions! 300% more then the single case you cited for the "large orginisation" !
It cuts both ways! If you claim the "large orginisation" is rife with child abusers why cant you list say even ten of them? surely with hundreds of thousands of clergy at a rate of 4% you should be able to produce hundreds of cases let alone 4,000?or an organisation of volunteers like the Boy scouts. There must be hundreds of thousands of organisations in the world :
Really? LARGE organisations? I suggest there is only ONE orginisation as fareas you are concertned because every time you are shown another one you try the "only true scotsman" in order to rule it out.how many - if any - have had 4% of their employees accused of child sex abuse, like the 110,000 strong RCC in the States ?
I don't know Tell us! How many? Look up "Argument from ignorance"!
Accusations are not evidence of abuse!
If anything they are evidence of anti Catholicism.
But as it happens why don't you list ANY organisation which has a role in looking after kids and we will see what level of convictions they have?
But you wont do the research will you? Probably because you are aware you will be shown up. Maybe that or maybe inept or lazy. Of course you can always prove me wrong.0 -
I don't understand your point. Are you suggesting the Bishop or some other church conspiracy secretly got in touch with the judge and got him to be lax?That's something you need to take up with the law of the land, the judiciary, and the governement. It has nothing to do with the Church.
Woah, woah, woah there laddys.
Bit of paranoia creeping in there I see. @ISAW, I wasn't suggesting anything of the sort. Ditto Festus. Hadn't actually considered that until you replied. Also, it's a bit of a ridiculous idea.
I posted the story because it is appropriate for the thread. My question was partly answered by Festus.
I think it's strange that more serious sentences such as this one aren't switched to consecutive, probably bound up in reams of legal speak.
I'd be very interested to see what sentence is handed down.0 -
Source?
certainly.
"Total church membership (both lay and clerical) in 2007 was 1.147 billion people" is cut + paste from Wiki. Look up "Catholic Church" on Wikipedia , or look up google ; it all comes up at the same number. You saying "billions" is a bit of an exaggeration. Its still 17% of the world population, a sizeable figure.
quote ; "There must be hundreds of thousands of organisations in the world : how many - if any - have had 4% of their employees accused of child sex abuse, like the 110,000 strong Roman Catholic Church in the States ( between 1950 + 1992 alone ) ? "I don't know Tell us! How many?
I do not know either as nobody can find any other large or similar size organisations with 4% of its members actually accused of child sex abuse. McDonalds, Burgerking, Hospitals, other religions / denominations ....nobody else seems to come close to the 4% mark except the celibate men of the RCC, surprise surprise. I cannot imagine McDonalds still being in business if the managers there covered up / silenced their victim(s) the same as Cardinal Brady did in the Irish RCC / Brendan Smyth case. http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/chris-moore-club-protecting-monster-went-all-the-way-to-top-2100001.html0 -
certainly.
"Total church membership (both lay and clerical) in 2007 was 1.147 billion people" is cut + paste from Wiki.
It is unwise to use Wikipedia without checking their sources.
Case in point:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masal_Bugduv
Try registering here for the January edition: http://www.internationalbulletin.org/archive/all/2011/1Look up "Catholic Church" on Wikipedia , or look up google ; it all comes up at the same number. You saying "billions" is a bit of an exaggeration.
Given the world population is six to seven billion I as referring to the order of billions. You were the one brought up the size as distinct from the per centage of abusers. What other organisation has numbers in the billions? I don't think you will supply any.quote ; "There must be hundreds of thousands of organisations in the world : how many - if any - have had 4% of their employees accused of child sex abuse, like the 110,000 strong Roman Catholic Church in the States ( between 1950 + 1992 alone ) ? "
How many with over a billion members? A think you might be a bit restrictive in your question don't you?I do not know either as nobody can find any other large or similar size organisations with 4% of its members actually accused of child sex abuse.
Not if "large" means "over a billion members"
By "similar" do you mean "having clergy and laity" or "having a specific branch for teaching or looking after children"?McDonalds, Burgerking, Hospitals, other religions / denominations ....nobody else seems to come close to the 4% mark except the celibate men of the RCC, surprise surprise.
You were shown that some hospitals do! How is Mc Donalds or Burgerking by your definition similar to the RCC? when you answer that Ill supply other oganisations with a higher level of convicted abusers.
But Im not surprised at the level of clergy accused of abuse given peopole like yu who hype clerical abuse. You however have no proof of such a level.I cannot imagine McDonalds still being in business if the managers there covered up / silenced their victim(s)
You are at it again! Changing the topic from justifying your invented 4% of abusers to suggesting a conspiracy covering up abuse.
But the church didn't do that and you haven't any evidence it did.the same as Cardinal Brady did in the Irish RCC / Brendan Smyth case.
Ther was no Cardinal Brady involved in the Brendan Smyth Case! There was no Cardinal Brady when Smyth was alive! So how he could order a cover up is impossible.
Note "OPINION" ?
Note also the reference to Hitler and a fictional Cardinal Brady?0 -
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You claimed the RCC was in the size of billions . Its in the order of one point one billion. Fact. Easily verified. That is not "billions".Given the world population is six to seven billion I as referring to the order of billions.
The behaviour of the "employees" ( Priests etc ) of the Church is what is under question. This thread is about Clerical abuse. There are not 1.1 billion Priests. There are 3000 Priests in the RCC in Ireland, I supplied you with the link for that already.
Newsweek magazine found that 4 % of the 110,000 Priests in the USA between 1950 and 1992 alone, were accused of child sex abuse. Are there any other similar size organisation in the world with ZERO point 4% of its professional full time employees accused of such abuse, never mind 4% ? Nobody else seems to come close to the 4% mark except the celibate men of the RCC, surprise surprise !
They employ many hundreds of thousands of people in the states but they do not have the shocking history of abuse and cover up as in the RCC. Imagine the outcry if 0.4%, never mind 4% of McDonalds employees were accused of child sex abuse ?How is Mc Donalds or Burgerking by your definition similar to the RCC?
He may now have been Cardinal when the cover up took place, but he was made Cardinal since. Still the whole episode was shameful. You should read the book.Ther was no Cardinal Brady involved in the Brendan Smyth Case!0 -
You claimed the RCC was in the size of billions . Its in the order of one point one billion. Fact. Easily verified. That is not "billions".
It is in the size of billions! Just as Islam is I believe. One billion or more is of the order of billions. I am happy to admit the Roman Catholic church gas currently not over two billion adherents. I won't indulge you in semantics when you are dodging the issue of "substantial size". You suggested no other organisation and then when called on that switched to "substantial size" . so fair enough the RCC is not in the billions. so what organisaton is comparable in terms of levels of abuse as you claimed ?The behaviour of the "employees" ( Priests etc ) of the Church is what is under question. This thread is about Clerical abuse.
Exactly. NOT the level of accusations but the level of abusers!There are not 1.1 billion Priests. There are 3000 Priests in the RCC in Ireland, I supplied you with the link for that already.
Where did you supply that link?
I supplied a link showing tens of thousands of priests and other religious such as monks nuns etc. It was the 1951 census
http://www.cso.ie/census/census_1951_results/Volume3/C%201951%20V3%20Pt1%20T2.pdf
Listed at 321
clergy : 17,507
Brothers 1,625
Lay brothers: 928
Religious students: 4,082
Preachers Missionaries 106
about 25,000 all in NOT 3,000!Newsweek magazine found that 4 % of the 110,000 Priests in the USA between 1950 and 1992 alone, were accused of child sex abuse. Are there any other similar size organisation in the world with ZERO point 4%
What do you consider a "similar organisation"?
why is the level of accusations or the belief in something which didn't happen in any way significant?of its professional full time employees accused of such abuse, never mind 4% ? Nobody else seems to come close to the 4% mark except the celibate men of the RCC, surprise surprise !
But you have been shown others not alone come close but way outstrip the level of RC abusers! You ignored that surprise surprise!
And you refuse to show how the level of accusations has any bearing on the level of actual abuse!
And now when cornered yet again you SWITCH to the claim that celibacy is related to abuse. surprise surprise!They employ many hundreds of thousands of people in the states but they do not have the shocking history of abuse and cover up as in the RCC.
Who do? And now you slip in the conspirccy and cover up claim and you try to turn 4% into a "level of abuse" when it is a level of accusations. You are a liar is you claim that 4% is a level of abuse because you know for a fact it isn't!Imagine the outcry if 0.4%, never mind 4% of McDonalds employees were accused of child sex abuse ?
Exactly. Accuse just like they did toi Dreyfus and the Jews and they gypsies and of course the level of accusations will be higher when people spread hate about priests or Jews or whatever. But you utterly FAIL to produce any actual evidence as to the level of abuse being high! when cornered you try to assert it is covered up or try to change into claiming it is because of celibacy.He may now have been Cardinal when the cover up took place,
He quite simply was not a Cardinal when Brendan Smyth was alive. No "may be" involved!but he was made Cardinal since. Still the whole episode was shameful. You should read the book.
You should produce some actual evidence instead of unsupported hate speech!0 -
Imagine the outcry if 0.4%, never mind 4% of McDonalds employees were accused of child sex abuse ?
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/wp-content/w3tc/pgcache/2011/02/28/burger-king-pays-out-3m-to-gay-couple-beaten-by-staff/_index.html.gzip
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-1114767.html
http://www.allvoices.com/news/6460119-hillsdale-man-accused-of-embezzling-260k-from-burger-king-employees-retirement-fund
http://www.topix.com/forum/afam/TUL7VQGTGUUPM9I91As more details about the near-deadly beating of a transgendered woman at a McDonald’s in suburban Baltimore emerge, so does an especially shocking detail of the event. According to Vicki Thomas, who came to the rescue of Chrissy Polis as she was savagely kicked and beaten, Thomas claims an employee told her,“You do know that's not a woman. That's a transvestite.”
Thomas believes the insensitive comment was made by the manager. So far one other employee of the fast food restaurant, Vernon Hackett, has fired for doing nothing to stop the beating and instead recording the incident on his cell phone.0 -
http://www.pinknews.co.uk/wp-content/w3tc/pgcache/2011/02/28/burger-king-pays-out-3m-to-gay-couple-beaten-by-staff/_index.html.gzip
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-1114767.html
http://www.allvoices.com/news/6460119-hillsdale-man-accused-of-embezzling-260k-from-burger-king-employees-retirement-fund
http://www.topix.com/forum/afam/TUL7VQGTGUUPM9I91
Even a faint attempt to keep on topic would be appreciated ISAW.0 -
Even a faint attempt to keep on topic would be appreciated ISAW.
the topic being " Imagine the outcry if 0.4%, never mind 4% of McDonalds employees were accused ...?"
The examples given are of abuse based on sex and on other criminal behaviour in Burgerking and Mc Donalds.
How is Mcdonalds or Burgerking (which gigino brought up) "on topic"?
I was just pointing out the level of criminality involved in their ranks. gigino assumes they are totally clean and then alleges the Church is vile and full of criminal abusers.0 -
It is in the size of billions! Just as Islam is I believe. One billion or more is of the order of billions. I am happy to admit the Roman Catholic church gas currently not over two billion adherents. I won't indulge you in semantics when you are dodging the issue of "substantial size". You suggested no other organisation and then when called on that switched to "substantial size" . so fair enough the RCC is not in the billions. so what organisaton is comparable in terms of levels of abuse as you claimed ?
Islam, sure. Use that. Use the main world religions.Where did you supply that link?
I supplied a link showing tens of thousands of priests and other religious such as monks nuns etc. It was the 1951 census
http://www.cso.ie/census/census_1951_results/Volume3/C%201951%20V3%20Pt1%20T2.pdf
Listed at 321
clergy : 17,507
Brothers 1,625
Lay brothers: 928
Religious students: 4,082
Preachers Missionaries 106
about 25,000 all in NOT 3,000!
Just to jump in on this point... 1951? Really? You couldn't have tried 2006?
On this table we see that there were 3,902 clergy. I think a safe assumption to make is that >90% of these will have been Catholic. This figure is also a drop from 2002, when there were 3,977 clergy.
There are also around 80 students in St. Patrick's College in Maynooth, according to their Wiki page.
So, gigino may have been off by about ~1,000, but your figure of 25,000, taken from a 60 year old census, is ridiculous, to say the least.0 -
the topic being " Imagine the outcry if 0.4%, never mind 4% of McDonalds employees were accused ...?"
The examples given are of abuse based on sex and on other criminal behaviour in Burgerking and Mc Donalds.
How is Mcdonalds or Burgerking (which gigino brought up) "on topic"?
I was just pointing out the level of criminality involved in their ranks. gigino assumes they are totally clean and then alleges the Church is vile and full of criminal abusers.
Both are sizeable corporations which have access to children.
None of the articles you posted involved sexual abuse.
Gigino's suggestions of those corporations as a comparison is bang on topic. Your articles are not.
Seemples.0 -
Islam, sure. Use that. Use the main world religions.
Fair enough. Apparently Islam says Mohammad has sex with a six to nine year old ( Aisha). Apparently Muslims believe that following the actions of Mohammad is the correct thing to do.Just to jump in on this point... 1951? Really? You couldn't have tried 2006?
No! Because the poster claimed about abuse 1950-1990. But fair enough. What is the level of convictions of clergy in 2006 for offences committed in 2006 or later?On this table we see that there were 3,902 clergy. I think a safe assumption to make is that >90% of these will have been Catholic.
I don't. Go get them!This figure is also a drop from 2002, when there were 3,977 clergy.
SO? I am not arguing about whether the numbers of clergy are declining. I am asking what the claimed rate of clerical sexual abuse of sexually undeveloped children is i.e what are called "pedophile priests" in the roman Catholic Church?There are also around 80 students in St. Patrick's College in Maynooth, according to their Wiki page.
So, gigino may have been off by about ~1,000, but your figure of 25,000, taken from a 60 year old census, is ridiculous, to say the least.
Not when gigino uses claims about accusationsNB accusations not convictions fro 1950 -1990. the level of convictions/abusers based on reports ( and unlike giogino I actually read them) peaked in the 1970s to 80s and declined. Using today's level of clergy isn't valid.0 -
Not in private.Both are sizeable corporations which have access to children.
Do you mean the act or the object?None of the articles you posted involved sexual abuse.
surely being abused because of you sex is sexual abuse?Gigino's suggestions of those corporations as a comparison is bang on topic. Your articles are not.
Rubbish. Microsoft Google or other large employers dont deal with children in private. Not do burger joints. The Scouts do however.
http://www.dallasfortworthinjurylawyer.com/sexual_abuse/A settlement has been reached in a suit filed against a Florida McDonald's after an employee exposed himself to a young female customer inside the restaurant
http://jonathanturley.org/2007/10/04/mcdonalds-sued-in-hoaxsexual-assault-case/Lousie Ogborn worked at McDonalds when she was 18 in April 2004. She received a hoax call from a man who claimed to be investigating a theft. During a 3 ½ hour search, the assistant manager Donna Jean Summers asked her boyfriend to take over. Ogborn was convinced to perform sex acts on herself and the boyfriend, Walter Nix Jr. – which were captured on the security camera.
Summers was convicted of unlawful imprisonment and Nix is serving a 5-year sentence for sexual abuse and other crimes
It took the jury only a few hours to come back with a verdict. $6.1 million dollars will be awarded to Louise Ogborn. The jury found that McDonalds did indeed fail to adequately warn its employees that a phony caller had done the same thing at other fast food restaurants accross the country.
http://poststar.com/news/local/article_a9d25c3c-48fc-11e0-871b-001cc4c03286.html- Police are trying to determine whether there are other victims of a Broadway couple who have been arrested in recent weeks on charges related to the sexual assault of two children, officials said.
...
Crandall worked at Burger King in Glens Falls0 -
I wrote "I do not know either as nobody can find any other large or similar size organisations with 4% of its members actually accused of child sex abuse. McDonalds, Burgerking, Hospitals, other religions / denominations ....nobody else seems to come close to the 4% mark except the celibate men of the RCC, surprise surprise"How is Mcdonalds or Burgerking (which gigino brought up) "on topic"?
I was just pointing out the level of criminality involved in their ranks. gigino assumes they are totally clean and then alleges the Church is vile and full of criminal abusers.
I never said the Church is full of criminal abusers. There are many good and decent priests.
I do not assume McDonalds, Burgerking, Hospitals, etc are totally clean. Millions of people have worked in McDonalds, and when you are dealing with that amount of people over many decades you are likely to get the odd "incident" or odd ball employee .....but their employer dealt with it properly and there was not a culture of child abuse there. ISAW finding a couple of people above from McDonalds / Burgerking above, is not stastically significant given that millions of people worked in those places. The point is other large or similar size organisations do not have 0.4%, never mind 4% of its professional employees actually accused of child sex abuse...or an organisation where the hierachy tried to silence / cover up (as in the Brendan Smyth case ) or just move the abuser to other locations etc.
I think most people are (rightfully ) horrified at the thought of child sex abuse, and would condemn the abuser.0 -
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I cannot find any other large or similar size organisations with 4% of its professional employees actually accused of child sex abuse..
1. Not true ~you ave been shown several
2. So what? ~levels of accusations are not proof of abuse and if anything they are proof of victimization..or an organisation where the hierachy tried to silence / cover up (as in the Brendan Smyth case )
Having mentioned the "odd case" yo now take one case and claim it was a coverup by the whole church with the hierarchy conspiring!
Not alone that you suggested Cardinal Brady covered up that case.0 -
.....but the point is I cannot find any other large or similar size organisations with 4% of its professional employees actually accused of child sex abuse...or an organisation where the hierachy tried to silence / cover up (as in the Brendan Smyth case ) or just move the abuser to other locations etc.
You need to do more research. It is not an "organisational" thing. I can't recall where I heard it - probably some TV program dealing with paraphilia - but the general consensus is it has an occurance rate in the general population of between 5 and 9 %. If the rate of occurence in the religious is 4% then that is significantly below the rate of occurence in the general population.
I'm sure you appreciate the difficult sex researchers have in gathering the data. You can just go to the GPs and psyciatricists and say send me your pedophiles. Nor can you put an ad in a paper or magazine asking for pedophiles to come forward for research purposes.
Generally speaking the cohort is comprised of convicted criminals and victims who are willing to be interviewed. This does not always make for good or accurate research.
As for cover ups. The Catholic Church would not be the first, and won't be the last. As already noted wives have been covering up their husbands abuse of their children for years and this will continue.
As for research - you may find this of interest http://www.mayoclinicproceedings.com/content/82/4/457.full0 -
No! Because the poster claimed about abuse 1950-1990. But fair enough. What is the level of convictions of clergy in 2006 for offences committed in 2006 or later?
Apologies, that bit slipped my grasp.ISAW wrote:Do you mean the act or the object?
surely being abused because of you sex is sexual abuse?
Are you serious?0 -
I wrote " Newsweek magazine found that 4 % of the 110,000 Priests in the USA between 1950 and 1992 alone, were accused of child sex abuse. Are there any other similar size organisation in the world with ZERO point 4% of its professional full time employees accused of such abuse, never mind 4%"1. Not true ~you ave been shown several
.
but none are similar size organisations to the stastical sample above. ( based on 120,000 employees ). You mention 2 or 3 employees of fast food businesses....which is almost nothing out of millions of workers in that industry. You mention the scouts...but I cannot see what the percentage of professional scout association employees have been accused of child sex abuse. Do you know ? Link ? I did see "Scouting was among the first national youth organizations to address the issue of sexual abuse of its members and in the 1980s developed its Youth Protection program, to educate youth, leaders and parents about the problem as a whole, and to introduce barriers to pedophiles using the Scout program to reach victims."
It seems extremely few if any organisations in the world have had 4% of their 120,000 employees accused of child sex abuse between 1950 and 1992 alone, like the RCC in the USA had.
People also would ( I would think, rightfully ) condemn the abuser, which you did not.0 -
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If an adult commits a crime as serious as child abuse, I think they should be condemned and reported to the authorities.0
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If an adult commits a crime as serious as child abuse, I think they should be condemned and reported to the authorities.
They should be reported to the authorities is agreed. The politics of condemnation is a different matter. Condemnation is a judgement call and not within our remit.0 -
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Who else used to say that ( use that phrase "refuse to engage in the politics of condemnation" in relation to another matter )? ...oh yeah, Gerry Adams. Maybe the church authorities should have engaged in the "politics of condemnation" more, instead of covering up / silencing the victims like in the Brendan Smyth case, or moving the abuser to a different Parish ? Perhaps in other organisations there was a lower tolerance for child sex abusers, which may be partly why other large or similar size organisations do not have 0.4%, never mind 4% of its professional employees actually accused of child sex abuse?The politics of condemnation is a different matter.0 -
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