The Clerical Child Abuse Thread (merged)

PDN

himnextdoor wrote: »

So it's a 'copy-cat' murder then?

himnextdoor, I think we've been very patient with your, er, 'unique' take on biblical passages.

But stop derailing this thread with such nonsense please.

himnextdoor

santing wrote: »

I think you somewhere lost the plot. The promise to make Isaac into a great nation happened a year before he was born, with no conditions attached. The request to offer Isaac 34 years later could not nullify God's promise - both Abraham and Isaac knew that. But to know something and to act on it in faith is something different.

And they had knowledge so they didn't need faith. It was a bet they couldn't lose.

But what if Abraham had refused? We already know that God has a different definition of everlasting (the first covenant).

Besides, wasn't it Michael who stopped Abraham killing Isaac? God says do it, Michael says don't and who does Abraham listen to?

himnextdoor

PDN wrote: »

himnextdoor, I think we've been very patient with your, er, 'unique' take on biblical passages.

But stop derailing this thread with such nonsense please.

Sorry, didn't mean to.

CiaranMT

PDN wrote: »

4. If you find anything erotic in that picture then I would strongly advise you to seek medical help quickly.

Er, why exactly? Just because you may not see it, does not mean that others can. It's not like it's a picture of two kittens playing in grass.

Suggesting medical advice for such a thing belies your views on the topic of erotica, methinks.

gimmebroadband

The other side of the coin!!!

Falsely accused by a predatory lawyer, a Catholic 77 year old priest dies of a broken heart.

Boston Globe

PDN

CiaranMT wrote: »

Er, why exactly? Just because you may not see it, does not mean that others can. It's not like it's a picture of two kittens playing in grass.

Suggesting medical advice for such a thing belies your views on the topic of erotica, methinks.

I don't find kittens to be erotic either.

If anyone finds an elderly man holding a knife to a young child's throat to be erotic then they would be better sorting their own problems out rather than worrying about what the Catholic Church are doing.

CiaranMT

PDN wrote: »

I don't find kittens to be erotic either.

If anyone finds an elderly man holding a knife to a young child's throat to be erotic then they would be better sorting their own problems out rather than worrying about what the Catholic Church are doing.

You're the only one that seems to be problematising the idea. The position of Abraham and his son in the first picture is very suggestive, and I'd be highly surprised if you denied this.

You don't have far to look for all kinds of role-playing fantasies on the interwebs.

If anything, the idea of Abraham's killing of his own son being so blithely accepted by Christians as some kind of display of obedience is far more disturbing, than someone possibly seeing an erotic element to an old piece of art.

PDN

CiaranMT wrote: »

You're the only one that seems to be problematising the idea.

There are only three of us discussing it. :rolleyes:

If you find it normal to treat old men wielding knives at children's throats as erotic then that is your problem, not mine.

You don't have far to look for all kinds of role-playing fantasies on the interwebs.

I'm sure you don't have to look far to find all kinds of stuff on the internet.

If anything, the idea of Abraham's killing of his own son being so blithely accepted by Christians as some kind of display of obedience is far more disturbing, than someone possibly seeing an erotic element to an old piece of art.

Yes, it's so disturbing that we look back on something that happened thousands of years ago in vastly different circumstances.

Now, trolling over. Do you have anything useful to contribute on the subject of clerical child abuse?

CiaranMT

PDN wrote: »

There are only three of us discussing it. :rolleyes:

If you find it normal to treat old men wielding knives at children's throats as erotic then that is your problem, not mine.


I'm sure you don't have to look far to find all kinds of stuff on the internet.



Yes, it's so disturbing that we look back on something that happened thousands of years ago in vastly different circumstances.

Now, trolling over. Do you have anything useful to contribute on the subject of clerical child abuse?

It is not the knife-wielding that is being referred to, as well you know (or should).

Neither is it myself that finds the painting erotic. I'm simply pointing out how it can be seen as such.

Please refrain from calling troll on a reasonable reply which I had made in response to a point of yours.

I have contributed in this thread, and will do in the future.

Fanny Cradock

For those interested you can watch Enda Kenny lambaste the Vatican in the Dail today. Very interesting stuff.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0720/cloyne1.html

Omentum

Today for once in my life i'm proud to be Irish....

PatricaMcKay

On a serious note the Roman Catholic hierarchy didnt do these things in a vacume, they were part of a wider society and part of a certain social class. What did they did was especially disgusting as they claimed to be representing Christ, but from a secular stand point lets face these "Industrial schools" played an important part in the profits of many businesses and the threat of them played a big part in social control.

We should be looking at Irish society as a whole instead of just scape goating the RC hierarchy.

hotmail.com

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

On a serious note the Roman Catholic hierarchy didnt do these things in a vacume, they were part of a wider society and part of a certain social class. What did they did was especially disgusting as they claimed to be representing Christ, but from a secular stand point lets face these "Industrial schools" played an important part in the profits of many businesses and the threat of them played a big part in social control.

We should be looking at Irish society as a whole instead of just scape goating the RC hierarchy.

The CC put themselves forward as moral guardians. Therefore all the criticism is completely justified. No other members of society claim to know all about morals.

Omentum

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

We should be looking at Irish society as a whole instead of just scape goating the RC hierarchy.

Roman Catholic church is solely responsible. Morality in Ireland and elsewhere all over the world was and still is dictated by Rome.

philologos

The State is also responsible in that it handed over so much control to the RCC in areas where it should have been primarily responsible and primarily in control.

PatricaMcKay

hotmail.com wrote: »

The CC put themselves forward as moral guardians. Therefore all the criticism is completely justified. No other members of society claim to know all about morals.

Actually a lot of what went on flew in the face of official Roman Catholic teaching.

And with the blessing of the Parish Priest and his Bishop the other involved saw themselves as "Pillars of the Community". The RCC was doing this in tandem with the state and probably also business which certainly benefited from it. Most people with cop on knew what was going on, maybe not to the full extent certainly but they had a good idea, yet they choose to keep their mouths shut in cowardice. Now the RCC alone gets the blame and the society that let this filth fester and lives to ruined absolves itself.

PatricaMcKay

philologos wrote: »

The State is also responsible in that it handed over so much control to the RCC in areas where it should have been primarily responsible and primarily in control.

There was a symbiotic relationship between the RC hierarchy and the Free State. The ethos that freaks people about the RC hierarchy reflected the general ethos of those they came from and were co-operating with.

PatricaMcKay

Omentum wrote: »

Roman Catholic church is solely responsible. Morality in Ireland and elsewhere all over the world was and still is dictated by Rome.

Typical Paddy, first we blame the Brits for everything, now we blame Rome for everything and in 20 years we will be blaming the EU for everything.

The state stole the children from their families for often the weakest reasons imaginable, business was happy to use this slave labour and paddy in general kept his mouth and wouldnt dare criticize Church, State or Business...Just like today he doesnt have the guts to question Media, State or Business.

alex73

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

Typical Paddy, first we blame the Brits for everything, now we blame Rome for everything and in 20 years we will be blaming the EU for everything.

The state stole the children from their families for often the weakest reasons imaginable, business was happy to use this slave labour and paddy in general kept his mouth and wouldnt dare criticize Church, State or Business...Just like today he doesnt have the guts to question Media, State or Business.

A lot of things were done for the wrong reasons. Many joined the priesthood for the wrong reasons given the lack of opportunities in Ireland in the 30's to 50's. These bad apples have done untold damage.

Fanny Cradock

hotmail.com wrote: »

The CC put themselves forward as moral guardians. Therefore all the criticism is completely justified.

Did you actually read PatricaMcKay's post? She didn't say that the RCC is not responsible. She is saying that the State was culpable as well.

I saw zero attempt to distance the RCC from blame, only apportion blame to all those responsible.

Good Lord!

hotmail.com

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Did you actually read PatricaMcKay's post? She didn't say that the RCC is not responsible. She is saying that the State was culpable as well.

I saw zero attempt to distance the RCC from blame, only apportion blame to all those responsible.

Good Lord!

The CC deserves particular blame and particular criticism because of their moral stance down the centuries. That's the key point.

CiaranMT

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Did you actually read PatricaMcKay's post? She didn't say that the RCC is not responsible. She is saying that the State was culpable as well.

I saw zero attempt to distance the RCC from blame, only apportion blame to all those responsible.

Good Lord!

And where did hotmail mention any attempt by PatricaMcKay to distance the RCC from blame?

Fanny Cradock

CiaranMT wrote: »

And where did hotmail mention any attempt by PatricaMcKay to distance the RCC from blame?

Read the post. The insistence that "all criticism is justified" is a completely superfluous statement given what was actually said. As far as I can see there was no attempt on ParticaMcKay's part to pull the RC out of the line of fire. Rather, she was suggesting that the State should join them.

himnextdoor

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Read the post. The insistence that "all criticism is justified" is a completely superfluous statement given what was actually said. As far as I can see there was no attempt on ParticaMcKay's part to pull the RC out of the line of fire. Rather, she was suggesting that the State should join them.

As indeed it should.

I just hope that Enda's attack on the Vatican is more than a damage limitation exercise for the state. Time will tell I guess.

PatricaMcKay

hotmail.com wrote: »

The CC deserves particular blame and particular criticism because of their moral stance down the centuries. That's the key point.

Which moral stance down the centuries in particular?

I disagree with Roman Catholicism theologically and morally as well, but child abuse and enslavement is NOT a moral stance of Roman Catholicism.

Roman Catholicism allowed itself to become a tool for serious evils because of other weaknesses I believe, but that would be another thread.

RC priests and Bishops came from this society and reflected its attitudes. Most Irish people knew and let it go on uncriticized. People other than the RCC benefited from it....But there seems to be a refusal to look at all this as there was a refusal to look at the actual abuse before.

Our society has extremely serious problems and its about time we took responsibility.

himnextdoor

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

Which moral stance down the centuries in particular?

I disagree with Roman Catholicism theologically and morally as well, but child abuse and enslavement is NOT a moral stance of Roman Catholicism.

Roman Catholicism allowed itself to become a tool for serious evils because of other weaknesses I believe, but that would be another thread.

RC priests and Bishops came from this society and reflected its attitudes. Most Irish people knew and let it go on uncriticized. People other than the RCC benefited from it....But there seems to be a refusal to look at all this as there was a refusal to look at the actual abuse before.

Our society has extremely serious problems and its about time we took responsibility.

True but surely Bishops lying about cases of abuse, Monsignors frustrating sovereign law, and gardai failing to properly investigate abuse-claims against clergy is particularly reprehensible. And particularly Catholic.

Fanny Cradock

himnextdoor wrote: »

True but surely Bishops lying about cases of abuse, Monsignors frustrating sovereign law, and gardai failing to properly investigate abuse-claims against clergy is particularly reprehensible.

I find it strange that when we talk about institutional abuse it always comes back to pointing the finger at the RCC at the expense of others involved.

The point being made is that the molesters and RCC aren't alone in their crimes. The RCC and the State enabled these men to commit their crimes. If we are truly interested in justice then we should be looking towards all those involved.

I get the impression from some people that they are so focused on the RCCs involvement that they forget others should be in the dock beside them.

Penn

philologos wrote: »

The State is also responsible in that it handed over so much control to the RCC in areas where it should have been primarily responsible and primarily in control.

It's not exactly equal blame though. While I agree, there were definite failings in the State's involvement, they are moreso 'accessories to the crime' than the 'criminals', metaphorically speaking.

PatricaMcKay

Barrington wrote: »

It's not exactly equal blame though. While I agree, there were definite failings in the State's involvement, they are moreso 'accessories to the crime' than the 'criminals', metaphorically speaking.

Anybody with cop on knew what was happening, but nearly everyone choose to turn a blind eye, remember it was the state that stole these children from their families on often extremely weak grounds and the state which used the threat of your children been taken away as a means of keeping people in line. It was the state that put them to work. The whole system was criminal, that it bred such a culture of abuse is hardly surprising.

Penn

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

Anybody with cop on knew what was happening, but nearly everyone choose to turn a blind eye, remember it was the state that stole these children from their families on often extremely weak grounds and the state which used the threat of your children been taken away as a means of keeping people in line. It was the state that put them to work. The whole system was criminal, that it bred such a culture of abuse is hardly surprising.

I'm talking about the past 10-20 years though.