The Clerical Child Abuse Thread (merged)

Fanny Cradock

Barrington wrote: »

It's not exactly equal blame though. While I agree, there were definite failings in the State's involvement, they are moreso 'accessories to the crime' than the 'criminals', metaphorically speaking.

But we aren't talking about metaphors. There were actual crimes committed. And that means that individuals are guilty and so are the RCC and the State. Reducing the State's culpability to "failings" doesn't begin to describe their culpability.

philologos

Barrington wrote: »

It's not exactly equal blame though. While I agree, there were definite failings in the State's involvement, they are moreso 'accessories to the crime' than the 'criminals', metaphorically speaking.

I never said anything about the equality of weight behind it other than to say that both are responsible in some way for what happened.

You also have to remember that children were abused in State care also.

Child abuse is a systemic problem in Irish society at large. Sports teams, orphanages, churches, schools, families, the list goes on and on. Absolutely tragic and it needs to be recognised as a problem in all areas of society.

Callan57

alex73 wrote: »

A lot of things were done for the wrong reasons. Many joined the priesthood for the wrong reasons given the lack of opportunities in Ireland in the 30's to 50's. These bad apples have done untold damage.

I would suggest that many joined specifically because of the opportunities it would give them to act out their perverted urges knowing they would be protected by the institution.
:mad:

PatricaMcKay

philologos wrote: »

Child abuse is a systemic problem in Irish society at large. Sports teams, orphanages, churches, schools, families, the list goes on and on. Absolutely tragic and it needs to be recognised as a problem in all areas of society.

The sentences passed out for sexual, often extremely serious, crimes in Ireland are pretty shocking in their laxity and give a good idea of how those in real control of this society see these crimes.

I find it both interesting and disturbing that the case of Adam's niece has been so quickly forgotten and that inspite of it he got elected to Dail with a comfortable number of votes, even though he choose to ignore the evidence of a very brutal rape of a very young child. Also interesting was that nothing much was made of the RUC's indifference to that case if they couldnt get an informer out of it. What does that all say about Ireland's real attitudes to these vile crimes?

prinz

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

Anybody with cop on knew what was happening, but nearly everyone choose to turn a blind eye.....

Not to mention that fact that the Cloyne Report clearly indicates that a number of people knew exactly what was happening at the time and appear to have done little to nothing, not even to protect their own children in some cases.

Callan57

prinz wrote: »

Not to mention that fact that the Cloyne Report clearly indicates that a number of people knew exactly what was happening at the time and appear to have done little to nothing, not even to protect their own children in some cases.

Just proves how successful the indoctrination was in Ireland

Penn

philologos wrote: »

I never said anything about the equality of weight behind it other than to say that both are responsible in some way for what happened.

Sorry, didn't mean to sound like it did. Merely giving my own opinion using your post as a jump-off point.

philologos wrote: »

You also have to remember that children were abused in State care also.

Of course. But again, I was talking about the last 20 years or so. If you go back further, abuse in State Care, while it still may have happened, was hugely reduced compared to 50 years ago, with new guidelines and measures implemented by the State. What changed in the Church?

philologos wrote: »

Child abuse is a systemic problem in Irish society at large. Sports teams, orphanages, churches, schools, families, the list goes on and on. Absolutely tragic and it needs to be recognised as a problem in all areas of society.

Of course. But in how many of those areas were child abuse cases covered up by an organisation in the last 20 years? I'm not saying that abuse doesn't happen, and I fully agree that it is a huge problem throughout society. I'm saying that there is an organisation which has purposefully hidden cases of sexual abuse in order to protect their organisation. Show me one other sector of society like Sports Team, Clubs, Families, schools etc where this happens to anywhere near the same extent.

prinz

Barrington wrote: »

Of course. But again, I was talking about the last 20 years or so. If you go back further, abuse in State Care, while it still may have happened, was hugely reduced compared to 50 years ago, with new guidelines and measures implemented by the State. What changed in the Church?

Up until a few years ago the State was against mandatory reporting..

A report by the Office of the Minister for Children in 2008, for example, concluded mandatory reporting “could divert scarce child protection resources, causing an extensive administrative burden”.
In addition, the previous minister for children argued against mandatory reporting on the basis other jurisdictions were moving away from such a system because it was unwieldy and inefficient.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0715/1224300763363.html

The State has yet to put Child Protection legislation on a statutory footing. Something being urgently rushed through at the moment.

In the Kilkenny Incest case nearly two decades ago a judge called on the State as a matter of urgency to organise information sharing and cross-body co-operation etc to help prevent and protect children from abuse. This was never implemented in any workable fashion.

Let's have a look at what the Cloyne Report has to say on the State guidelines..

The Commission acknowledges that the standards which were adopted by the Church are high standards which, if fully implemented, would afford proper protection to children. The standards set by the State are less precise and more difficult to implement.

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Cloyne_Rpt.pdf/Files/Cloyne_Rpt.pdf

Page 4.

Isn't that what has changed? Admittedly the problem is that some people chose not to abide by those standards.

Show me one other sector of society like Sports Team, Clubs, Families, schools etc where this happens to anywhere near the same extent.

Do you realise that a similar report to the Cloyne Report is due out later this year IIRC dubbed the Shannon Report which is investigating 200 deaths of minors between 2000 and 2010? All of whom were supposedly under the care of the HSE at the time of their deaths? How many HSE staff have been prosecuted? Or criminally investigated for their professional cock-ups? Were the HSE announcing a death of a child or two in their care every month for a decade? Do you think they liked to keep things quiet instead? Was it hushed up? Why do you think there is an inquiry into it now?

Where were the State guidelines for these young people? Who protected them? Even the HSE were looking to the governments for leadership on this..

The Independent Review Group will be reviewing the cases over the last 10 years and the HSE is seeking to facilitate them in their work in every way possible. We look forward to the introduction of legislation by the Government which will facilitate the HSE in handing over child care files to the Independent Review Group. In the intervening period we will continue to explore every possible avenue open to us in assisting them with their work

http://www.hse.ie/eng/services/newscentre/2010archive/june2010/childrenjun4.html

himnextdoor

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I find it strange that when we talk about institutional abuse it always comes back to pointing the finger at the RCC at the expense of others involved.

The point being made is that the molesters and RCC aren't alone in their crimes. The RCC and the State enabled these men to commit their crimes. If we are truly interested in justice then we should be looking towards all those involved.

I get the impression from some people that they are so focused on the RCCs involvement that they forget others should be in the dock beside them.

Weren't the guards who covered up RC? What about the politicians who don't want to get involved with the affairs of the Church; weren't they RC?

The state, the gardai and the clergy are RC, influenced by the RCC, frightened by the RCC, abused by the RCC. In the pocket of the RCC.

How can the RCC be seperated from this outrage? Regardless of who should be in the dock with them.

Rome interfered in Ireland because it could; because it sees Ireland as a nation of cap-doffing hypocrites who allow their Priests to dictate moral values.

Religion has always been a tool of control but this time religion has gone too far and shown itself to be the evil cabal it is.

Let me put it this way; if the Church is our best defence against evil then we are in deep do-do.

And if God is perchance watching, He must be saying to Himself, 'Oh my Me! If you want a job doing properly then you have to do it yourself.'

Where is the power of God? What is it being used for? To subjugate children is the main aim of the Church. To get them young and program the fear of God into them; to make them believe that the Priesthood is the right-hand of God.

These children grow into adults with flawed thinking, skewed values; ridiculous beliefs. And some of these children become politicians.

Indoctrination is the art of religion; religion designed the template of mass hypnosis that is being used today and until that problem, religious credibility, is dealt with the state will continue to be run by misinformed beaurocrats who are frightened of the Church.

The Church lead the way on morality and its hypocrisy should be tackled first before we even start to try and deal with the state organs that were 'moulded' by the Church and may have frustrated child protection policy.

Sure, there should be others in the dock but the RCC are in the dock. Let this trial be cocluded then let us examine who else is implicated.

hotmail.com

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

Which moral stance down the centuries in particular?

I disagree with Roman Catholicism theologically and morally as well, but child abuse and enslavement is NOT a moral stance of Roman Catholicism.

Roman Catholicism allowed itself to become a tool for serious evils because of other weaknesses I believe, but that would be another thread.

RC priests and Bishops came from this society and reflected its attitudes. Most Irish people knew and let it go on uncriticized. People other than the RCC benefited from it....But there seems to be a refusal to look at all this as there was a refusal to look at the actual abuse before.

Our society has extremely serious problems and its about time we took responsibility.

Moral stances on sex, sexuality, contraception, divorce, you name it - they moralised about these issues, when they themselves engaged in peodophilia directly or covered it up. And it was a significant minority as well before we hear this nonsense about it only being a few bad apples.

The issue of sexual abuse in general in our society is a separate issue. Completely separate.

We're discussing the sexual abuse within the CC in Ireland. I take your point that sexual abuse is a problem in our society but let's not try to diminish the damage caused by the CC by somehow spreading the blame and saying it was a societal problem.

The CC put themselvs forward as doers of 'good' when they were not good. Far from it. This is why they get such publicity over this, the hypocrisy and the two-faced ethos of the CC.

Callan57

hotmail.com wrote: »

Moral stances on sex, sexuality, contraception, divorce, you name it - they moralised about these issues, when they themselves engaged in peodophilia directly or covered it up. And it was a significant minority as well before we hear this nonsense about it only being a few bad apples.

The issue of sexual abuse in general in our society is a separate issue. Completely separate.

We're discussing the sexual abuse within the CC in Ireland. I take your point that sexual abuse is a problem in our society but let's not try to diminish the damage caused by the CC by somehow spreading the blame and saying it was a societal problem.

The CC put themselvs forward as doers of 'good' when they were not good. Far from it. This is why they get such publicity over this, the hypocrisy and the two-faced ethos of the CC.

Agree with you totally ... it has to be remembered too that the RCC fought tooth and nail to maintain a vice like grip on education and medicine since the foundation of the state and are still doing it.
I accept that others in society and especially in public life abdicated their responsibility and colluded in allowing the stranglehold of the RCC over society but it must be remembered they were products of their education & upbringing ... the so called Catholic ethos and to paraphrase the Jesuits 'give me the child and I will show you the man'!
I say again we, as a society, are suffering the consequences of generations of systematic insidious brainwashing by the agents of a foreign power.

gigino

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

The sentences passed out for sexual, often extremely serious, crimes in Ireland are pretty shocking in their laxity and give a good idea of how those in real control of this society see these crimes.

What do you expect when "The state, the gardai and the clergy are RC, influenced by the RCC, frightened by the RCC, abused by the RCC. In the pocket of the RCC", as someone else said. Thankfully things are changing. Out Taoiseach made a strong comments in the past day or 2 about the RCC.

Spacedog

gigino wrote: »

What do you expect when "The state, the gardai and the clergy are RC, influenced by the RCC, frightened by the RCC, abused by the RCC. In the pocket of the RCC", as someone else said. Thankfully things are changing. Out Taoiseach made a strong comments in the past day or 2 about the RCC.

Please stop talking sense....

Hello!, can someone please drag this thread off topic again please, we have another sense talker here, and as we all know this merged abuse thread is simply a mechanism for burying valid discussion on child abuse in order to protect our church.

Fanny Cradock

Spacedog wrote: »

thread is simply a mechanism for burying valid discussion on child abuse in order to protect our church.

Really, it isn't.

PatricaMcKay

gigino wrote: »

What do you expect when "The state, the gardai and the clergy are RC, influenced by the RCC, frightened by the RCC, abused by the RCC. In the pocket of the RCC", as someone else said. Thankfully things are changing. Out Taoiseach made a strong comments in the past day or 2 about the RCC.

Was Kincora also down to the RCC?

You are also failing to take into account that most of the child abuse scandals in the RCC or linked in with either Irish people or people of Irish descent.

himnextdoor

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

Was Kincora also down to the RCC?

No. and nor was Myra Hyndley; what's that got to do with the price of cheese?

PatricaMcKay

himnextdoor wrote: »

No. and nor was Myra Hyndley; what's that got to do with the price of cheese?

Actually Myra Hindley was a Roman Catholic!

The point is though it is in the nature of Rome who see its power and prestige as good things in themselves, so do all either immoral or moral to retain or obtain them, the abuse seems to be an Irish as opposed to RC as such problem.

himnextdoor

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

Actually Myra Hindley was a Roman Catholic!

The point is though it is in the nature of Rome who see its power and prestige as good things in themselves, so do all either immoral or moral to retain or obtain them, the abuse seems to be an Irish as opposed to RC as such problem.

I'm not sure about that; I think there are some sad stories to come out of Spain on this subject.

I think it's a Catholic thing.

CiaranMT

From the IT website:

[quote=
PATSY McGARRY, PADDY AGNEW and PAUL CULLEN]

Vatican calls for 'objective' debate on Cloyne report


A SENIOR Vatican spokesman has responded to the Taoiseach’s unprecedented criticisms of the Catholic Church following the Cloyne report by appealing for “objectivity” in the debate.

While the Vatican has still to deliver the formal response demanded of it by the Government to the report, Fr Federico Lombardi promised it would reply “at the opportune moment” to the questions raised.

In a statement issued late last night in Rome, he stated: “It is to be hoped that the ongoing debate on such dramatic issues can be carried out with the necessary objectivity so as to contribute to the matter which should most concern us all, namely the safety of children and of young people and the renewal of a climate of trust and collaboration to this end, in both the church and society, as wished for by the Pope in his letter to the Catholics of Ireland.”

Fr Lombardi’s latest intervention in the debate on Cloyne follows Taoiseach Enda Kenny’s accusation that the Vatican had downplayed or “managed” the rape and torture of children in order to uphold its own power and reputation.

Mr Kenny’s words were praised yesterday by Bishop of Dromore John McAreavey, who said they accurately reflected the deep anger of Irish people at the contents of the report and the huge challenges ahead for the church.

Auxiliary Bishop of Armagh Gerard Clifford said he was taken aback by the force and “wide, sweeping nature” of the Taoiseach’s address in the Dáil. “I acknowledge the reason for the intensity of feeling expressed, given the awful findings of the Cloyne report.”

Fine Gael parliamentary party chairman Charlie Flanagan wrote to the Dáil justice committee yesterday proposing members invite former Bishop of Cloyne John Magee to come before the committee to answer questions.

Bishop Magee’s whereabouts remain unknown, a week after the publication of the report and despite calls by other bishops for him to answer questions on its findings.

Mr Flanagan last week called for the expulsion of papal nuncio Archbishop Giuseppe Leanza.

The post of Irish ambassador to the Holy See is currently vacant, but Minister for Foreign Affairs Eamon Gilmore said it was “not an option” to appoint the Irish Ambassador to Italy to also be ambassador to the Vatican. This was because the Vatican does not accept the accreditation of an ambassador who is also ambassador to Italy.

Mr Gilmore told Labour TD Kevin Humphreys the Embassy existed to maintain a permanent point of contact with the Catholic Church. Mr Humphreys said the Embassy should be closed in order to send a message that Ireland would not tolerate the Vatican’s failures on child protection.

Meanwhile, Ian Elliott, chairman of the church’s National Board for Safeguarding Children, said the Government’s promise to create a statutory framework for child protection services was welcome but long overdue. Writing in today’s Irish Times , he said the problems in Cloyne were exposed by the board and not the HSE or the Garda.

The Garda Press Office said yesterday a review of the report to see if further action was merited has not yet been completed.[/quote]

A nothing response, if ever I saw one.

And why has Magee vanished?

POGG

wheres mr magee??? he should be going on trial for his behaviour!! interesting days ahead,he'l have to reappear.... and the response from the vatican! well done enda kenny more off the same pls

himnextdoor

himnextdoor wrote: »

I'm not sure about that; I think there are some sad stories to come out of Spain on this subject.

I think it's a Catholic thing.

I would be interested to know if this abuse scandal has even made it in to the Spanish media. How could I find that out?

wolfsbane

himnextdoor wrote: »

Is that to say we should all become monks and nuns? (or equivalent)

Not at all - just simple Christians, those who trust in Christ alone for salvation, not in their works or morality. Those who seek to do His will because they love Him.

An impossible task, of course - unless God intervenes and gives us repentance and faith. But that is His business - our business is to respond to the gospel with repentance and faith. Afterwards we learn that it was His grace that enabled us to do so.

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John 7:37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”

gimmebroadband

The Government wants to clean up it's own act!!!

434 foreign refugee children fall through cracks - (go missing) in Ireland and no call for an investigation into how so many went missing in HSE hostels and for 5 years it was hushed up by the "authorities" until Village Magazine started an investigation!

HSE believes 200 children died in care.

http://jimcairns.net/400hushedup.htm.html

wolfsbane

Omentum wrote: »

Today for once in my life i'm proud to be Irish....

And as a (British) Ulsterman, I'm greatly impressed too! I pray this signals a new era of real freedom in Ireland.

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Revelation 18:5 For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.

wolfsbane

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

On a serious note the Roman Catholic hierarchy didnt do these things in a vacume, they were part of a wider society and part of a certain social class. What did they did was especially disgusting as they claimed to be representing Christ, but from a secular stand point lets face these "Industrial schools" played an important part in the profits of many businesses and the threat of them played a big part in social control.

We should be looking at Irish society as a whole instead of just scape goating the RC hierarchy.

The RCC has had a cosy relationship with the rich and powerful for most of its existence. One expects the latter to exploit the weak - but the scandal is, as you say, in an organisation claiming to be Christ's true church sharing in that, and indeed excelling in its abuse by tolerating sexual abuse and covering up for the perpetrators.

More than that, the RCC in Ireland had the rich and powerful in subjection. Whether it was due to the personal piety of the politician or their fear of the piety of the masses, it meant the papacy called the shots when it wanted.

For me, that means the RCC is THE culprit, the others only accessories.

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Revelation 18:23 The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived.

gigino

himnextdoor wrote: »

I would be interested to know if this abuse scandal has even made it in to the Spanish media. How could I find that out?

Every country seems to have major scandals in the RC church ...Since 2001, Spain has reported 14 confirmed cases of clerical sex abuse to the Vatican. But how many other cases were there ? There is controversy that the RC churches priorities are misplaced, from those who prefer talk of "criminals" to "sinners", and who want assurances that abuse claims will be reported promptly to secular courts, not handled in silence behind the tall, heavy wooden doors of church buildings.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10122305

smokingman

gimmebroadband wrote: »

The Government wants to clean up it's own act!!!

LOOK OVER THERE! (not over here) DISTRACT, DISTRACT, DISTRACT....

:rolleyes:

wolfsbane

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

Actually Myra Hindley was a Roman Catholic!

The point is though it is in the nature of Rome who see its power and prestige as good things in themselves, so do all either immoral or moral to retain or obtain them, the abuse seems to be an Irish as opposed to RC as such problem.

I'm glad it is not an Ulster Unionist saying such things! :eek:

Really, do you think child sex abuse is an Irish trait??? I find that hard to believe. Fighting likely; drinking maybe; superstition also. But paedophilia?

Can you give some reasons for your assertion?

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Revelation 18:3 For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury.”

wolfsbane

POGG wrote: »

wheres mr magee??? he should be going on trial for his behaviour!! interesting days ahead,he'l have to reappear.... and the response from the vatican! well done enda kenny more off the same pls

At the time of his death, Rome prosecutors were still hoping to question Marcinkus, but he has been kept under protection in Phoenix, Arizona, still being under Vatican diplomatic immunity.
http://www.rense.com/general69/vatt.htm

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Revelation 18:3 For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury.”

gimmebroadband

smokingman wrote: »

LOOK OVER THERE! (not over here) DISTRACT, DISTRACT, DISTRACT....

:rolleyes:

Exactly what the media and the Goverment are saying. Do you suppose those children neglected by the HSE are less important that those who were abused by clerics? If anything the goverment is trying to distract attention from itself!!!

If the Goverment is serious about the welfare of children, then they should seek the truth not from just one institution, but ALL institutions!!!