The Clerical Child Abuse Thread (merged)

gigino

wolfsbane wrote: »

Really, do you think child sex abuse is an Irish trait??? I find that hard to believe. Fighting likely; drinking maybe; superstition also. But paedophilia?

Can you give some reasons for your assertion?

It would be interesting is she did have reasons for her assertion. I wonder are statistics available for child sex abuse in different countries ? Newsweek magazine ( link given earlier in thread ) reported 4% of RC priests in the USA between 1950 and 1992 had official paedo complaints made against them. Its reasonable to assume the % of RC priests in America who had Irish blood was higher than the general population of America. But thats not rock hard evidence. Another poster some time ago said the Irish had one of the highest the highest incidences of child sex abise in the world. I find it hard to believe.

CiaranMT

gimmebroadband wrote: »

The Government wants to clean up it's own act!!!

434 foreign refugee children fall through cracks - (go missing) in Ireland and no call for an investigation into how so many went missing in HSE hostels and for 5 years it was hushed up by the "authorities" until Village Magazine started an investigation!

HSE believes 200 children died in care.

http://jimcairns.net/400hushedup.htm.html

gimmebroadband wrote: »

Exactly what the media and the Goverment are saying. Do you suppose those children neglected by the HSE are less important that those who were abused by clerics? If anything the goverment is trying to distract attention from itself!!!

If the Goverment is serious about the welfare of children, then they should seek the truth not from just one institution, but ALL institutions!!!

Stop trying to derail the thread. As was said in another thread, defending an organisation which lays claim to knowing the Truth by posting stuff about a separate controversy is an awful defence.

gigino wrote: »

Every country seems to have major scandals in the RC church ...Since 2001, Spain has reported 14 confirmed cases of clerical sex abuse to the Vatican. But how many other cases were there ? There is controversy that the RC churches priorities are misplaced, from those who prefer talk of "criminals" to "sinners", and who want assurances that abuse claims will be reported promptly to secular courts, not handled in silence behind the tall, heavy wooden doors of church buildings.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10122305

Here ya go, 27 countries in the list.

gimmebroadband

CiaranMT wrote: »

Stop trying to derail the thread. As was said in another thread, defending an organisation which lays claim to knowing the Truth by posting stuff about a separate controversy is an awful defence.
.

Most of the INSTITUTION consists of INNOCENT Priests, and Laity - it's easy to lump everyone together and blame the whole thing!!!

Callan57

gimmebroadband wrote: »

Most of the INSTITUTION consists of INNOCENT Priests, and Laity - it's easy to lump everyone together and blame the whole thing!!!

Shame a few of these INNOCENT Priests and Laity didn't stand up for INNOCENT children and out the perverts then isn't it?
As someone once said 'Is there not one amongst you?' :mad:

CiaranMT

gimmebroadband wrote: »

Most of the INSTITUTION consists of INNOCENT Priests, and Laity - it's easy to lump everyone together and blame the whole thing!!!

And no-one has disputed that it was anything other than a small number of offenders.

What sticks in the throat is the fact that this was covered up right up to the highest level of the RCC.

No-one is blaming 'the whole thing'. They're blaming the Vatican, and the bishops of this country, who have been shown to cover up the rape and molestation of children by their fellow clergy.

Acknowledge that at least.

gimmebroadband

CiaranMT wrote: »

And no-one has disputed that it was anything other than a small number of offenders.

What sticks in the throat is the fact that this was covered up right up to the highest level of the RCC.

No-one is blaming 'the whole thing'. They're blaming the Vatican, and the bishops of this country, who have been shown to cover up the rape and molestation of children by their fellow clergy.

Acknowledge that at least.

I absolutely acknowlege that the Bishop of each dioscese that covered up abuse failed the victims and the Church by sleeping on the job and failing to act swiftly!! I so wish to rot was dealt with so we can move on!

himnextdoor

gimmebroadband wrote: »

I absolutely acknowlege that the Bishop of each dioscese that covered up abuse failed the victims and the Church by sleeping on the job and failing to act swiftly!! I so wish to rot was dealt with so we can move on!

Fair enough but there has to be at least the appearance that radical over-hauling is taking place.

Run_to_da_hills

I wonder if Enda Kenny's speech be read out at Mass tomorrow.

gimmebroadband

I wonder will Enda Kenny be at Mass tomorrow! :pac:

Just joking!

(Having a bad day)

alex73

gimmebroadband wrote: »

I wonder will Enda Kenny be at Mass tomorrow! :pac:

He will, he goes every week.

gimmebroadband

alex73 wrote: »

He will, he goes every week.

I know he does, I was jesting, I know it's no laughing matter - me bad!!!

CiaranMT

Brian D'Arcy was on Miriam O' Callaghan's show earlier, he was thoroughly engaging to listen to. Moving at times.

gigino

CiaranMT wrote: »

Brian D'Arcy was on Miriam O' Callaghan's show earlier, he was thoroughly engaging to listen to. Moving at times.

like many people who went to the Priests / Brothers, he was abused himself too...at the age of 9 ( I think he said) and 17. If that was his experience of the RCC I wonder why did he still go on for it ?

lmaopml

CiaranMT wrote: »

And no-one has disputed that it was anything other than a small number of offenders.

What sticks in the throat is the fact that this was covered up right up to the highest level of the RCC.

No-one is blaming 'the whole thing'. They're blaming the Vatican, and the bishops of this country, who have been shown to cover up the rape and molestation of children by their fellow clergy.

Acknowledge that at least.

I will acknowledge that there was a 'coverup' of sorts, Irish bishops who through lack of actual understanding of the brevity and malicious nature of peadophilia covered or moved a perpetrator, or 'forgave' them, at a time when most of the wider society didn't recognise or understand same.

- I don't claim to know that there is a 'rot' that some assume, or choose to believe is so! If there is a 'rot' than we all need to look a little closer to home and not only rationalise abuse in the RCC, but also 'abuse' everywhere and the people responsible inadvertantly through lack of understanding or efficient means. It seems that we have been presented with an opportunity to 'help' children, lets not waste it on hyperbole and avoidance of reality? Lets get 'real' and deal with new understanding and concentrate on proactive solutions - every good parent or guardian wants 'good' laws that are educated..and built on fundamental freedoms and social justice whatever way that may present itself, and not on a 'ghost' victim - That's just really undoing childrens safety, for the sake of a minor self appeasement, and not concentrating on what could be actually effective long term. As a Catholic, I have to deal with the 'harsh' facts. We're being 'investigated' with stats - it's all 'good' though.

CiaranMT

lmaopml wrote: »

I will acknowledge that there was a 'coverup' of sorts, Irish bishops who through lack of actual understanding of the brevity and malicious nature of peadophilia covered or moved a perpetrator, or 'forgave' them, at a time when most of the wider society didn't recognise or understand same.

I'd love to know how a bishop, educated to a high level, fails to understand the 'brevity and malicious nature of paedophilia'. A young child, for sure would have difficulty with the concept, a young teenager, maybe... But a bishop? A full grown adult?

lmaopml

CiaranMT wrote: »

I'd love to know how a bishop, educated to a high level, fails to understand the 'brevity and malicious nature of paedophilia'. A young child, for sure would have difficulty with the concept, a young teenager, maybe... But a bishop? A full grown adult?

Well, I think you would have to go back in time and understand the psychology of the era. Perhaps the same way a parent denied such abuse, or a GP or a Police officer or Judge - they simply didn't understand that it was a natural disorder, but also one that 'others' have risen above and chosen 'not' to give in to, because they recognise that it is harmful to innocents?

This is not something that Irish people can afford to 'pin' conveniently - we have 'more' to do than that, we have 'understanding' on our side, history, science, understanding, education, etc. etc. etc. we don't want to go down the road of it's all 'their' fault? and pass really really stupid laws?

No, we've decided to actually take into consideration the 'welfare' of Children, whether we are Catholic, unpractising Catholic, C.O.I., Muslim, Jew, Atheist, or just simply 'searcher' etc. etc. etc. - we would like to 'get real' without taking the easy way out and grandstanding to the listening crowd at the detriment of others.

That's not 'equality' that's passing judgement on every single person - with no 'nod' to the good that has been done and will never - ever ever be advertised. It's more 'glossing over' reality. People 'now' know more than people 'before' - surely that isn't 'news'.

Slushfund

The first place a full investigation and cleansing needs to start is with vatican Cardinals Sodano and Bertone and Law

http://ncronline.org/blogs/examining-crisis/cracks-wall-curia

http://frogenyozurt.com/2011/07/render-unto-rome-the-secret-life-of-money-in-the-catholic-church-by-jason-berry/

And in addition, the rules need to be changed and strengthened. Any Bishop like McGee or Brady needs to be defrocked and seen to be defrocked quickly, none of this independence of Bishops guff.

As Catholics we want justice and action, and we want it now.

No more dressing in fancy Clothes and living in Palaces.

The time for marching is here.

As Catholics we must demand the absolutely highest standards from ALL our Priests, Bishops and Cardinals. No excuses, either you PROVE you are fit to be our apostles, or you are NOT

lmaopml

They too - deserve to be innocent until proven 'guilty', that's fundamental to any kind of justice - Irish Law needs some more equality and justice, and less 'old boys club', no matter what section of society the 'old boys' hail from, and they aren't all 'Catholic' either. White collar (and not clerical for the 'pun') should be top of the list - but it's all smoke and mirrors so far - I await a truely 'good' legislator that passes laws that incriminates the white collar criminal effectively that has caused more untold grief to so many families who are just surviving, and are driven to work hard by the virtue of dependants, to push themselves to the limits - it's cynical justice we're receiving.

Also, the grandstanding is equally cynical to anybody with any sense of justice built on a foundation that is sustainable and workeable. A little hard work would go down better than the latest version of an Obama speech regurgitated for a momentary applaud and the feel good factor, and tabloid approval, or 'rankings'.

Thank goodness, there are a few hard workers in the background not rehearsing their next public address, but actually dealing with reality as opposed to their 'public' persona and 'likeability' - My guess is that 'Noonan' is cut out of that uncompromising cloth - pity he died a death as a leader, he's not so bad imo. Neither was the late 'Lenihan'. - History will write their epitaph, not the daily mail or the indo, that's for sure. How they deal with 'Child safety' will be 'ultimate' to how they are perceived - they mess it up, well they just join the long list - they get it right without 'Brave heart' speeches - than they will accomplish something.

Slushfund

lmaopml wrote: »

They too - deserve to be innocent until proven 'guilty'

Start doing your own research, and please study and research the articles I've posted, they are not the usual anti-Catholic ulterior agenda crap, they are packed with facts, written by Jason Berry a Catholic Investigative Reporter, who broke the massive Fr. Marcial Maciel and Legion of Christ scandal.

You can still be a faithful Catholic and attend mass and follow the doctrines of the Church, while demanding these people are dealt with. It is your DUTY.

lmaopml

If it wasn't in the Confessional than I presume it's public and written about - so many writers, so many opinions -

Could you perhaps surmise your understanding or sumarise in your own words, there a 'links' galore on the thread already? Every one giving different versions of stats or interpretation of same. Some are 'fantastic' in their conclusions. - and yet others imo are very very raw, and justifiable, and real foundations worth building on.

Please just post your opinion and don't send everybody off to research the research - we've all researched..lol. Summarise. It's a gift. - Communicate your research in your own words. You don't have to..lol..but I really really wish people did at least try somewhat and not ultimately make declarations on or depend on what 'others' say, but on what they have to say themselves in relation to their 'learning' etc. of what 'others' had to say.

himnextdoor

lmaopml wrote: »

They too - deserve to be innocent until proven 'guilty', that's fundamental to any kind of justice - Irish Law needs some more equality and justice, and less 'old boys club', no matter what section of society the 'old boys' hail from, and they aren't all 'Catholic' either. White collar (and not clerical for the 'pun') should be top of the list - but it's all smoke and mirrors so far - I await a truely 'good' legislator that passes laws that incriminates the white collar criminal effectively that has caused more untold grief to so many families who are just surviving, and are driven to work hard by the virtue of dependants, to push themselves to the limits - it's cynical justice we're receiving.

Also, the grandstanding is equally cynical to anybody with any sense of justice built on a foundation that is sustainable and workeable. A little hard work would go down better than the latest version of an Obama speech regurgitated for a momentary applaud and the feel good factor, and tabloid approval, or 'rankings'.

Thank goodness, there are a few hard workers in the background not rehearsing their next public address, but actually dealing with reality as opposed to their 'public' persona and 'likeability' - My guess is that 'Noonan' is cut out of that uncompromising cloth - pity he died a death as a leader, he's not so bad imo. Neither was the late 'Lenihan'. - History will write their epitaph, not the daily mail or the indo, that's for sure. How they deal with 'Child safety' will be 'ultimate' to how they are perceived - they mess it up, well they just join the long list - they get it right without 'Brave heart' speeches - than they will accomplish something.

Stick your hands up:

Do we expect to be ripped off by our betters?

Almost everyone's hand went up I see.

Now,

Do we expect our children to be sexually abused by ordained ministers of the Church?

Anyone?

But that's not the nub of it; canon-law introduced another level of difficulty for abused children. An extra get-out clause for a paedophile.

And before you say that the Church has 'written down rules regarding sexual abuse of children', I don't care; all paedophiles will sign up to child-protection on paper but they will still strive to thwart it.

They should practice what they preach. Hypocrites.

I heard Brian Cowen refuse to deal with this issue saying it was a matter for the Church; if the highest authority of the state kow-tows to the Church, what impression should abused children draw from it?

The Church went "Shush" and everyone went quiet. It didn't appear to try to deal with the problem and therefore, in my view, facilitated paedophilia within its ranks.

Noone is saying that all paedophiles are Catholics but Catholicism has failed all children by sacrficing a great number of victims to 'agents of morality' endorsed and protected by canon law.

Don't you see a problem with the fact that you always have to dig a bit deeper with the Church because they try so hard to conceal their skeletons?

I mean, what is it you don't get? The Church is supposed to be 'safe', a sanctuary. We should be able to trust that the Church is giving adequate care to our children. No?

To be honest, it's people like Bishops and the Pope that make me think that Catholicism should be 'excised' (or exorcised) from humanity.

And I reckon God would share my despisement.

And if He doesn't, well... stuff Him.

Callan57

Isn't it strange that those who set themselves up for hundreds of years as the experts on human sexuality were all taken aback and did not understand paedophilia ... Lord sure they never heard of it at all, at all?

How long a learning curve does it take for an educated adult male to instinctively know that abusing an innocent defenseless child is a crime and to be sickened to the core of their being by the very suggestion?

There is something very sick in people who when made aware of such abuse could proceed to coldly rationalising the interests of a mere institution versus the interests of an innocent child and could then proceed to further abuse the child with legalities and oaths & do everything in their power not just to protect the abuser but to facilitate his continued abuse. And when eventually found out they still try to defend & rationalise their heinous action or inaction & their first instinct is to try to muddy the water & spread the blame ably assisted by their fundamentalist friends. My God what kind of Church has Popes, bishops, cardinals and priests who simply cannot see this heinous crime for what it is? Not to mention the fact that they obviously don't recognise evil when they see it in the face of their own?

'Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely' ... an old quote but no less accurate for that & we surely have proof of its accuracy.

Posters here who try to equate the cover up of child abuse with banking scandals or political gombeenism should have a very long hard look at themselves.

gimmebroadband

A Catholic priest confronts his rage over sexual abuse within his church

Read more: http://www.timesunion.com/opinion/article/A-test-of-faith-1010217.php#ixzz1T0yaTKUn

gimmebroadband

Callan57 wrote: »

Isn't it strange that those who set themselves up for hundreds of years as the experts on human sexuality were all taken aback and did not understand paedophilia ... Lord sure they never heard of it at all, at all?

How long a learning curve does it take for an educated adult male to instinctively know that abusing an innocent defenseless child is a crime and to be sickened to the core of their being by the very suggestion?

There is something very sick in people who when made aware of such abuse could proceed to coldly rationalising the interests of a mere institution versus the interests of an innocent child and could then proceed to further abuse the child with legalities and oaths & do everything in their power not just to protect the abuser but to facilitate his continued abuse. And when eventually found out they still try to defend & rationalise their heinous action or inaction & their first instinct is to try to muddy the water & spread the blame ably assisted by their fundamentalist friends. My God what kind of Church has Popes, bishops, cardinals and priests who simply cannot see this heinous crime for what it is? Not to mention the fact that they obviously don't recognise evil when they see it in the face of their own?

'Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely' ... an old quote but no less accurate for that & we surely have proof of its accuracy.

Posters here who try to equate the cover up of child abuse with banking scandals or political gombeenism should have a very long hard look at themselves.

We are all living in a society where heinious unspeakable evil abounds! Abortion, Sodomy, child-trafickking, paeodphile rings, wife/husband beating, rapes.... to name but a few. Evil is universal, and certain members of the church certainly weren't immune! We need to clean up society as a whole an that includes the church.

Slushfund

Stinking your fingers in your ears and singing la la la won't make this go away folks.

Slushfund

lmaopml wrote: »

If it wasn't in the Confessional than I presume it's public and written about - so many writers, so many opinions -

Could you perhaps surmise your understanding or sumarise in your own words, there a 'links' galore on the thread already? Every one giving different versions of stats or interpretation of same. Some are 'fantastic' in their conclusions. - and yet others imo are very very raw, and justifiable, and real foundations worth building on.

Please just post your opinion and don't send everybody off to research the research - we've all researched..lol. Summarise. It's a gift. - Communicate your research in your own words. You don't have to..lol..but I really really wish people did at least try somewhat and not ultimately make declarations on or depend on what 'others' say, but on what they have to say themselves in relation to their 'learning' etc. of what 'others' had to say.

Ok, you wont read the links, fine.

Lets start with Cardinal Angelo Sodano, Current Dean of the College of Cardinals.




That's right, the man in charge of the conclave that elected the Present Pope and the man who will be in charge of the next one.

Summary :

Sodano was the recipient of financial gifts from the members of the Legion of Christ. According to an ex-member of the Legion: "Cardinal Sodano was the cheerleader for the Legion. He'd come give a talk at Christmas and they'd give him $10,000. Another priest recalled a $5,000 donation to Sodano.

In 1998 Sodano intervened to halt an investigation into sexual abuse by the Legion's founder, Marcial Maciel. The investigation had been headed by Joseph Ratzinger, who at the time was head of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. After Ratzinger became Pope Benedict XVI, the Vatican published a report finding that Maciel had sexually abused young men and fathered at least one child.

Sodano was "bought" by financial gifts from Maciel and other members of the Legion of Christ, and should resign. Sodano sponsored Maciel's appearance at a prestigious religious conference in Lucca, Italy, in 2005. And, as previously reported in NCR, Sodano took at least $15,000 in cash gifts from the Legion at Maciel's behest.

Berry also makes a strong case that Sodano laundered money for his erstwhile nephew and his business partner Follieri who gave money to the Vatican and who is now in prison in New York for fourteen counts of wire fraud, money laundering and conspiracy. After yielding his job as secretary of state to Bertone, Sadono became dean of the College of Cardinals just in time for the College to vote Ratzinger as Pope Benedict XVI.

Also Sodano, when he was the Vatican Secretary of State (i.e. Prime Minister), blocked investigations into sex abuse crimes committed by his predecessor in Vienna, the late Cardinal Hans Hermann Groer. John Paul and Sodano allowed Groer to take residence in a Marian shrine.

Slushfund

Next up in the hall of shame is Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, Current Vatican Secretary of State



He currently serves as cardinal Secretary of State (effectively Prime minister) and Camerlengo. He replaced Sodano as Secretary of State.

Bertone, was a lowly canon lawyer picked from obscurity by Ratzinger to investigate the Maciel case; he swore all the victims to secrecy and ended up doing nothing about Maciel. For his loyalty he was named archbishop of Genoa, then Cardinal, and now Secretary of State. While he was ecclesial chief of Genoa he found the time and interest to endorse Maciel’s book (since proven to have been lifted 80% from a dead theologian’s book–add plagiarism to Maciel’s list of sins and crimes). Bertone endorsed it in the most effusive way by writing a celebratory preface to the Italian edition in 2003. To repeat, this same Bertone so enamored of Maciel is now secretary of state for Pope Benedict’s Vatican. It is amazing what loyalty will buy.

After yielding his job as secretary of state to the great and loyal Bertone, Sadono became dean of the College of Cardinals just in time for the College to vote Ratzinger as Pope Benedict XVI.

Slushfund

Next up in our hall of Shame is Cardinal Bernhard Law



He is the Archbishop emeritus of Boston, member of the Roman Curia, archpriest of the Basilica di Santa Maria Maggiore, and titular Cardinal Priest of Santa Susanna, the American Catholic church in Rome.

Cardinal Law is famous in Boston for his passing pedophile priests from parish to parish and for his current promotion to run a fourth century basilica in Rome. While in Boston, he took money earmarked for priestly retirements and used it to pay off pedophile claims without telling anyone. The result? The clergy retirement fund is over $104 million in the hole. Law did this secretly before the pedophile scandal broke in 2002.

Law currently serves on the Commission in the Vatican that appoints bishops worldwide.

Slushfund

Grand Summary

Until Benedict gets rid of Sodano and Law and forces Bertone to atone for his words, the pope will be handcuffed to achieve "the necessity of justice." For his papacy to put this crisis to rest, Benedict must establish procedures to remove guilty and incompetent bishops and cardinals from the hierarchy, currently, unless they choose to resign, there are NONE. A priest can be defrocked, but not a Bishop or Cardinal. THIS NEEDS TO BE CHANGED. As a result Brady gets to sit in his job in Armagh until Brady decides otherwise. We need a clean out, and we need it now.

wolfsbane

lmaopml wrote: »

Well, I think you would have to go back in time and understand the psychology of the era. Perhaps the same way a parent denied such abuse, or a GP or a Police officer or Judge - they simply didn't understand that it was a natural disorder, but also one that 'others' have risen above and chosen 'not' to give in to, because they recognise that it is harmful to innocents?

This is not something that Irish people can afford to 'pin' conveniently - we have 'more' to do than that, we have 'understanding' on our side, history, science, understanding, education, etc. etc. etc. we don't want to go down the road of it's all 'their' fault? and pass really really stupid laws?

No, we've decided to actually take into consideration the 'welfare' of Children, whether we are Catholic, unpractising Catholic, C.O.I., Muslim, Jew, Atheist, or just simply 'searcher' etc. etc. etc. - we would like to 'get real' without taking the easy way out and grandstanding to the listening crowd at the detriment of others.

That's not 'equality' that's passing judgement on every single person - with no 'nod' to the good that has been done and will never - ever ever be advertised. It's more 'glossing over' reality. People 'now' know more than people 'before' - surely that isn't 'news'.

I became a teenager in 1962. I was aware that some old men ('old' to me) 'interfered' with children - but I never regarded them as other than perverted beasts. I assume everyone else then thought so too - except for the perpetrators obviously and, it has emerged, the Catholic clergy.

How anyone could cover up and leave free to perpetuate child sexual abuse and not know the abuse was the vilest sin is beyond me.

I mean, fornication was looked down on, adultery a scandal, homosexuality despised. Yet the Catholic clergy 'simply didn't understand' the awfulness of child sex abuse???

The only reason I can think of to confuse them would be that it was a well-known and tolerated practice, a minor (pardon the pun) misdemeanour. Not approved of, but not a sackable offence, in modern parlance.

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Matthew 18:10 “Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven.