The Clerical Child Abuse Thread (merged)

wolfsbane

Heard on the radio this morning that the missing bishop is the same guy who was publicly accused of murdering JP1. One of the valets in the Vatican shouted the accusation in St. Peter's Square, I gather.

Other interesting articles:
http://www.mgr.org/CloyneReport.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2006837/Identity-card-belonging-murdered-Pope-John-Paul-I-sells-eBay-5-000.html

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Matthew 18:10 “Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven.

CiaranMT

wolfsbane wrote: »

I became a teenager in 1962. I was aware that some old men ('old' to me) 'interfered' with children - but I never regarded them as other than perverted beasts. I assume everyone else then thought so too - except for the perpetrators obviously and, it has emerged, the Catholic clergy.

How anyone could cover up and leave free to perpetuate child sexual abuse and not know the abuse was the vilest sin is beyond me.

I mean, fornication was looked down on, adultery a scandal, homosexuality despised. Yet the Catholic clergy 'simply didn't understand' the awfulness of child sex abuse???

The only reason I can think of to confuse them would be that it was a well-known and tolerated practice, a minor (pardon the pun) misdemeanour. Not approved of, but not a sackable offence, in modern parlance.

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Matthew 18:10 “Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven.

Thanks for that, a reply which I would not have had the patience to write.

wolfsbane wrote: »

Heard on the radio this morning that the missing bishop is the same guy who was publicly accused of murdering JP1. One of the valets in the Vatican shouted the accusation in St. Peter's Square, I gather.

Bishop Magee, is it?

wolfsbane

CiaranMT wrote: »

Bishop Magee, is it?

Yep.

CiaranMT

wolfsbane wrote: »

Yep.

Ooh. That's not something you hear every day.

himnextdoor

CiaranMT wrote: »

Ooh. That's not something you hear every day.

Indeed, it's some can of worms they've been keeping a lid on, isn't it?

PatricaMcKay

wolfsbane wrote: »

How anyone could cover up and leave free to perpetuate child sexual abuse and not know the abuse was the vilest sin is beyond me.

I mean, fornication was looked down on, adultery a scandal, homosexuality despised. Yet the Catholic clergy 'simply didn't understand' the awfulness of child sex abuse???

The sexual abuse of a child under any circumstances is particularly vile, but the sexual abuse of a child by either its parent or someone placed in a position of specially representing God is infinitely worse.

However sociologists make a difference between "shame" and "guilt" cultures. In "guilt" cultures a sense of wrong doing is something internal, you are guilty before your own soul and/or God, while in "shame" cultures its social, wrongdoing is only bad if it takes place in the eyes of the community and shames you before other people, if their is no social stigma or shame coming from committing certain acts than you dont have a problem with it. Thats why people could aid in these vile sins and yet at the same time look down their noses at other people who were guilty of far lesser sins.

himnextdoor

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

The sexual abuse of a child under any circumstances is particularly vile, but the sexual abuse of a child by either its parent or someone placed in a position of specially representing God is infinitely worse.

However sociologists make a difference between "shame" and "guilt" cultures. In "guilt" cultures a sense of wrong doing is something internal, you are guilty before your own soul and/or God, while in "shame" cultures its social, wrongdoing is only bad if it takes place in the eyes of the community and shames you before other people, if their is no social stigma or shame coming from committing certain acts than you dont have a problem with it. Thats why people could aid in these vile sins and yet at the same time look down their noses at other people who were guilty of far lesser sins.

Are you saying that Brady, McGee, the Pope are part of a 'shame' culture; that they do not, or cannot, hold themselves accountable to God?

Jericho Smith

First can we actually refer to it not as child abuse but its actual term "child rape" since that is what actually happened. An interesting point has been made by many but to just come back to the point of ireland as a prime example of papacy dominance and of the bishops in the country. During the writing of the first constitution as wrote by the "chief" ( Dev - for all you non history buffs) he gave the RCC a special seat in this country. Now as he was a proud RC and Ireland is still very Catholic now a days its apparent how this all happened. The Church was and still remains infallible to criticism of any sort, (or so it believes) so of course a minority of priests would go on to do bad things as they were untouchable.
Even to draw the point off in another direction Enda Kennys remarks about the whole "scandal" he still did nothing about it. Priests have not been arrested, Bishops not removed from power and the cardinal not kicked out. Its pretty plain to all open minded people that nothing will be done about this. Veiled threats and a few columns, an angry worded letter and plenty of shouting but little to no action.
That is the problem with this country in many ways that we refuse to take action on these things, and after this report i promise you nothing will be done about the rape of little children because the church has the power and the leverage to keep everyone quite and the coffer full.
Its the horrible truth and the reality, but in my opinion i would like to see the cardinal expelled the bishops investigated, every priest who has been found guilty imprisoned for their full sentence and the construction of the biggest wall we can find between church and state.

Jericho

Fanny Cradock

Jericho Smith wrote: »

First can we actually refer to it not as child abuse but its actual term "child rape" since that is what actually happened.

Rape happened in certain cases, not all. The term sexual abuse seems to cover a multitude of sins, including inappropriate talk/ suggestions, molestation and rape.

Jericho Smith wrote: »

Priests have not been arrested...

Of course they have. It is a matter for the State to prosecute these priests and that is exactly what has happened. That the RCC has been criminally secretive is a different issue.

himnextdoor

Jericho Smith wrote: »

First can we actually refer to it not as child abuse but its actual term "child rape" since that is what actually happened. An interesting point has been made by many but to just come back to the point of ireland as a prime example of papacy dominance and of the bishops in the country. During the writing of the first constitution as wrote by the "chief" ( Dev - for all you non history buffs) he gave the RCC a special seat in this country. Now as he was a proud RC and Ireland is still very Catholic now a days its apparent how this all happened. The Church was and still remains infallible to criticism of any sort, (or so it believes) so of course a minority of priests would go on to do bad things as they were untouchable.
Even to draw the point off in another direction Enda Kennys remarks about the whole "scandal" he still did nothing about it. Priests have not been arrested, Bishops not removed from power and the cardinal not kicked out. Its pretty plain to all open minded people that nothing will be done about this. Veiled threats and a few columns, an angry worded letter and plenty of shouting but little to no action.
That is the problem with this country in many ways that we refuse to take action on these things, and after this report i promise you nothing will be done about the rape of little children because the church has the power and the leverage to keep everyone quite and the coffer full.
Its the horrible truth and the reality, but in my opinion i would like to see the cardinal expelled the bishops investigated, every priest who has been found guilty imprisoned for their full sentence and the construction of the biggest wall we can find between church and state.

Jericho

The problem is though, it will be very difficult not to throw the baby out with the bath-water.

It seems entirely possible to me that a serious enquiry into the operations of the Church could lead to the total collapse of the state. I think blackmail and extortion have resulted in many high-ranking members of society being caught 'by the balls' and in the same way the banks were bailed out, the Church will have to be bailed out.

We have to be careful what we wish for.

Jericho Smith

please enlighen me of how we should treat rapists and clerical sex abusers. Please they so quickly call themselves a source of human morality but i would ask if you could please give an example of trials involving priests that have been public and open for all to see? Please inform me of this without referring to Google and not taking into account of the home they send them to near Dundrum? if i am correct and i would ask all to give their opinion on this then i think you will find that the list is very very small. In the most part they are covered up and brushed under the rug sorry to be the devils advocate but the RCC has a huge amount of power to control what is said and done. Children were raped all across the world and had it been anyone else they would of been publicly ruined and registered as rapists but priests? .... i think you will find that all reports that have been published have led to angry words and little action. I promise you that the currant government will do nothing at all of any relevance to curtail the Church.

Jericho

gimmebroadband

Jericho Smith wrote: »

please enlighen me of how we should treat rapists and clerical sex abusers. Please they so quickly call themselves a source of human morality but i would ask if you could please give an example of trials involving priests that have been public and open for all to see? Please inform me of this without referring to Google and not taking into account of the home they send them to near Dundrum? if i am correct and i would ask all to give their opinion on this then i think you will find that the list is very very small. In the most part they are covered up and brushed under the rug sorry to be the devils advocate but the RCC has a huge amount of power to control what is said and done. Children were raped all across the world and had it been anyone else they would of been publicly ruined and registered as rapists but priests? .... i think you will find that all reports that have been published have led to angry words and little action. I promise you that the currant government will do nothing at all of any relevance to curtail the Church.

Jericho

Ask yourself how would Jesus treat them!

Jericho Smith

Sorry but to say the whole irish state will collapse because the leaders are caught up in rape scandals is a very outlandish statement. But if the leadership did collapse i see very little problem there, no man is above the law. No institution should be treated differently or be above the laws of ireland and thats how i feel entirely. If what your saying is true then let it collapse then and only then will we be able to stand accountable for allowing (and the whole country did allow this to happen) this rape to happen. No priest, bishop, cleric, cardinal or pope is above the law and the government must rule to crack down on all who break it with a fair trial in the public domain.

Jericho

mcmoustache

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

We should be looking at Irish society as a whole instead of just scape goating the RC hierarchy.

I'm getting a bit tired of these deflections as a means to spread the blame when defending the organisation is impossible. It's like a politician without anything positive to say about himself throwing muck at his opponent in an election.

This thread is about clerical child abuse. Nobody doubts that this problem is wider than just the church but this thread exists to discuss abuse of the clerical variety (as per the title). Child abuse issues within state organisations have nothing to do with the RCC's policy on reporting child abuse.

David Quinn has been at the same thing. He never had any reason to be concerned about non-clerical institutional child abuse but now that the spotlight is on the RCC, he feels the need to blow the lid on child abuse within state institutions. I'm sure that his recent concern for children has nothing to do with his belief that it is his duty as a Catholic to defend his organisation no matter what :rolleyes:.

This is what's wrong with the RCC. It exists for itself and it's strongest proponents and most devoted members think that defending the organisation is more important than Jesus's teachings. Public Relations trumps Justice and Mercy all the time.

Jericho Smith

The man makes a very good point. But as i said above, this problem with "child rape" goes allot deeper than just the RCC so to discuss it fully one must look at all sides of the story not just blame the RCC all the time. The took advantage of a non-secular system and that's what contributed to the scandals(i actually don't like using that word to discuss what happened). So in brief can we open this conversation up to the whole issue and not just the small narrow reasons but for the efect of it all?

Jericho

Jericho Smith

You cant prove the existence of jesus! but i can prove the existence of a court a jury, raped children and angry irish people as well as a few priests with guilty looks on their faces.

Jericho

Fanny Cradock

Jericho Smith wrote: »

please enlighen me of how we should treat rapists and clerical sex abusers.

What has my opinion on the appropriate sentencing got to do with anything? I have absolutely no experience in criminal law.

Jericho Smith wrote: »

Please they so quickly call themselves a source of human morality...

Again, what has that to do with the price of beans?

Jericho Smith wrote: »

but i would ask if you could please give an example of trials involving priests that have been public and open for all to see?

I've no idea what you mean by "public and open for all to see". It seams like you either didn't make yourself clear initially or you are attempting to stack the deck.

You stated that priests have not been arrested. You can either back that claim up (I can't imagine how you could do this) or it is to be discounted as hyperbolic nonsense.

Please note that shifting the goal posts and stating that the list is very small (small by comparison to who?) is not the same as claiming that no priests have been arrested.

Jericho Smith wrote: »

Please inform me of this without referring to Google and not taking into account of the home they send them to near Dundrum? if i am correct and i would ask all to give their opinion on this then i think you will find that the list is very very small.

OK, so I can't refer to Google (which I assume you mean is a catch all phrase for the internet, which is ironic considering you are on an internet forum) for some reason. In that case, I can't name any priests beyond Brendan Casey who were imprisoned for their crimes. Maybe one or two might pop into my head at a later date but as I really don't pay that much attention to such things I can't imaging I could ever give you a list. Oh well!

Jericho Smith wrote: »

In the most part they are covered up and brushed under the rug sorry to be the devils advocate but the RCC has a huge amount of power to control what is said and done. Children were raped all across the world and had it been anyone else they would of been publicly ruined and registered as rapists but priests?

Tell us something we don't know, Jericho. While we can imprison the individual priest involved and punish the RCC for enabling these men to carry out their crimes, the two pink elephants in the room are the State's complicity in all this mess and the sad fact that priests apparently abuse at approximately the same proportional rates as is found in the rest of the population.

Jericho Smith wrote: »

.... i think you will find that all reports that have been published have led to angry words and little action. I promise you that the currant government will do nothing at all of any relevance to curtail the Church.

A report is compiled to collate data and draw conclusions from these data. A report has in and of itself no remit beyond this objective. I don't know how you can peer into your crystal ball and say that the Government will do nothing when it is just now looking to divest the RCC of its central role in State education and has issued an unprecedented public criticism of the involvement the RCC has had in the various sex abuse scandals.

Fanny Cradock

mcmoustache wrote: »

I'm getting a bit tired of these deflections as a means to spread the blame when defending the organisation is impossible. It's like a politician without anything positive to say about himself throwing muck at his opponent in an election.

And this thread is about all aspects of clerical abuse. I see no reason why we should ignore the States involvement when it has been made perfectly clear - at least by some - that this in no way diminishes the RCC culpability.

mcmoustache

Jericho Smith wrote: »

So in brief can we open this conversation up to the whole issue and not just the small narrow reasons but for the efect of it all?

Jericho

You mean change the subject to one that goes beyond Christianity in the Christianity forum after the thread has been going for over 1600 posts and is still very active?

That's a terrible idea. You could start one in Humanities or Politics about state institute child abuse instead.

This thread has a long life ahead of it in its current form.

mcmoustache

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

And this thread is about all aspects of clerical abuse. I see no reason why we should ignore the States involvement when it has been made perfectly clear - at least by some - that this in no way diminishes the RCC culpability.

Apologies. I misread what was meant.

I thought that abuse carried out by non-clergy was what was meant and not the state's handling of accusations of clerical abuse.

For the record, I think that the DPP's and AGS's reluctance to pursue allegations against priests to be just as sickening. On the other hand, I would bet that the motivation for this reluctance had a lot to do with either a devotion to or a fear of the RCC in this country among the older generations. In other words, this was less of a problem for state institutions and more of a problem for Catholics in these institutions.

PatricaMcKay

gimmebroadband wrote: »

Ask yourself how would Jesus treat them!

By doing something worse than drowning them?

Jericho Smith

Yes your fully correct person above me .... i only mean to say that the situation with clerical child rape has been totally mishandled and i believe my prediction will come true. Nothing will be done, gilmore although a decent man will not stand up and put the power(which he craves) on the line its just not going to happen. The catholic vote in this country is very important to an electorate, ireland will remain silent and take little action to rectify this serious problem. Rome will bury it in their vaults and all will be well, and that my fellow angry irish men is the unfortunate truth. Children of 4-14 will get no justice, their will be no answers given. I stand by my beliefs and until they day comes that i am proven wrong i shall stick to them. I believe this because it has happened so many times in the past and we have not yet learned that we must be strong and defend ourselves as a people and as a nation to any attack on our children.

Jericho

Fanny Cradock

mcmoustache wrote: »

Apologies. I misread what was meant.

I thought that abuse carried out by non-clergy was what was meant and not the state's handling of accusations of clerical abuse.

No problem.

Though I am constantly surprised how often the statement "the State is also culpable" is misunderstood as "the RCC is less guilty because of the State's culpability". To be sure some people argue the latter - which I think is indefensible - but the assumption that this is being said seems like a default position for some to take.

Put simply. The individual abusers are guilty of crimes; the RCC is guilty of crimes; the State is guilty of crimes. The guilt of one doesn't diminish the guilt of the others.

himnextdoor

Jericho Smith wrote: »

Yes your fully correct person above me .... i only mean to say that the situation with clerical child rape has been totally mishandled and i believe my prediction will come true. Nothing will be done, gilmore although a decent man will not stand up and put the power(which he craves) on the line its just not going to happen. The catholic vote in this country is very important to an electorate, ireland will remain silent and take little action to rectify this serious problem. Rome will bury it in their vaults and all will be well, and that my fellow angry irish men is the unfortunate truth. Children of 4-14 will get no justice, their will be no answers given. I stand by my beliefs and until they day comes that i am proven wrong i shall stick to them. I believe this because it has happened so many times in the past and we have not yet learned that we must be strong and defend ourselves as a people and as a nation to any attack on our children.

Jericho

I'll take that bet.

The state has to do something. Or at least it has to appear that they are doing something. New guidelines will be issued, the HSE will be 'cleaned' up, the Church will be criticised and so on. And Enda comes out a hero.

And for its part, the Church will have to do somethings too. Or appear to do something.

Unfortunately, when excising cancer it is somewhat inevitable that some healthy flesh has to be sacrificed.

Heads will roll, alright, but they are still trying to decide whose heads should be sacrificed. A few fall guys will be enough to appease almost everyone. And it's getting to the point where people have to be appeased.

It's simple politics really.

Jericho Smith

That all works well in good in theory but lets recap a few centuries of RCC involvement in ireland. The famine, the RCC did very little to help the dying people all over the country while they sat in luxury, the magdelene laundries no nothing was done really, industriel schools, no all the way up to the 1980s some were still open, the christian brothers, nope very little was done, the murphy,ryan, cloyne reports ..... im sorry but i have very little faith in them doing anything at all.

Its simple history really, it repeats itself.

Jericho

himnextdoor

Jericho Smith wrote: »

That all works well in good in theory but lets recap a few centuries of RCC involvement in ireland. The famine, the RCC did very little to help the dying people all over the country while they sat in luxury, the magdelene laundries no nothing was done really, industriel schools, no all the way up to the 1980s some were still open, the christian brothers, nope very little was done, the murphy,ryan, cloyne reports ..... im sorry but i have very little faith in them doing anything at all.

Its simple history really, it repeats itself.

Jericho

Indeed and history teaches us that civilisations are doomed to collapse.

And that, by the way, is not a good thing for the people of collapsed civilisations.

No, the protection of the state requires a few sacrificial lambs and they will be sacrificed.

And the Church will have to do the same.

wolfsbane

PatricaMcKay wrote: »

The sexual abuse of a child under any circumstances is particularly vile, but the sexual abuse of a child by either its parent or someone placed in a position of specially representing God is infinitely worse.

However sociologists make a difference between "shame" and "guilt" cultures. In "guilt" cultures a sense of wrong doing is something internal, you are guilty before your own soul and/or God, while in "shame" cultures its social, wrongdoing is only bad if it takes place in the eyes of the community and shames you before other people, if their is no social stigma or shame coming from committing certain acts than you dont have a problem with it. Thats why people could aid in these vile sins and yet at the same time look down their noses at other people who were guilty of far lesser sins.

I'm not sure what you mean. Child sex abuse was seen as a vile offence/sin in the ordinary man's eyes throughout all my 60+ years. I take it I have been in a 'shame' culture? I'm sure some of the perpetrators also felt guilty about it. So it was both a 'shame' and a 'guilt' culture? Do you mean the authorities in the RCC did not regard it as a problem because it was covered up?

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Matthew 18:10 “Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven.

Jericho Smith

himnextdoor wrote: »

Indeed and history teaches us that civilisations are doomed to collapse.

And that, by the way, is not a good thing for the people of collapsed civilisations.

No, the protection of the state requires a few sacrificial lambs and they will be sacrificed.

And the Church will have to do the same.

im sorry are you saying that to prop up a woeful irish government steeped in class related problems, economic doom, disorder and also massive divides in the country, your saying that these are the people you wanna save and not small innocent raped little boys and girls whos only crime was being in the wrong place at the wrong time? are you saying enda kenny is worth more than the justice for little children. that his government is more important than imprisoning sick twisted peadophiles? is that what your saying

Jericho

Fanny Cradock

What?

Jericho Smith

look at the top its a quote from himnextdoor very interesting

Jericho