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The Clerical Child Abuse Thread (merged)
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I didn't know that - but I'm not surprised. The Anglican communion is corrupt to the core. Those true believers among them are like Lot, sitting in the gate of Sodom:
2 Peter 2: 7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)—
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Matthew 18:10 “Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven.
I dont think that is exactly fair.
People forget that there are a lot of very conservative African and Asian Anglicans who out number the American and European liberals.
I go to the C of I despite all its problems because for Biblical and historical reasons I couldnt be comfortable with either Rome or a more "Protestant" Church.
That said a lot of people in the C of I seem to treat it as more some type of "cultural identity" than a Church, which is why you get people like that minister who protested being thrown out even though he publically stated that he didnt believe in God, involvement with utterly unprincipled ecumenism on one side and than involvement with the OO on the other.0 -
PatricaMcKay wrote: »You know that Norris regularly takes Communion?
I dont understand why the C of I havent chucked him out.
Hate the sin but love the sinner?0 -
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Yes, there are orthodox areas in Anglicanism, but who runs the show? Who tolerates homosexuality as a valid lifestyle? Who tolerates modern Sadducees in teaching offices? No, it is not authentic Christians or authentic Christianity that characterises Anglicanism, any more than Lot and Yahweh worship characterised Sodom. Well, OK, Lot was alone in Sodom and there are many true Christians in Anglicanism - but it is the direction rather than the speed that counts in a course for heaven or hell.PatricaMcKay wrote: »I dont think that is exactly fair.
People forget that there are a lot of very conservative African and Asian Anglicans who out number the American and European liberals.
I go to the C of I despite all its problems because for Biblical and historical reasons I couldnt be comfortable with either Rome or a more "Protestant" Church.
That said a lot of people in the C of I seem to treat it as more some type of "cultural identity" than a Church, which is why you get people like that minister who protested being thrown out even though he publically stated that he didnt believe in God, involvement with utterly unprincipled ecumenism on one side and than involvement with the OO on the other.
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Matthew 18:10 “Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven.0 -
dvpower said:Quote:
Originally Posted by PatricaMcKay
You know that Norris regularly takes Communion?
I dont understand why the C of I havent chucked him out.
Hate the sin but love the sinner?
Toleration of wickedness is not a virtue:
1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”
Revelation 2:20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols.
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Matthew 18:10 “Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven.0 -
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Yes, there are orthodox areas in Anglicanism, but who runs the show? Who tolerates homosexuality as a valid lifestyle? Who tolerates modern Sadducees in teaching offices? No, it is not authentic Christians or authentic Christianity that characterises Anglicanism, any more than Lot and Yahweh worship characterised Sodom. Well, OK, Lot was alone in Sodom and there are many true Christians in Anglicanism - but it is the direction rather than the speed that counts in a course for
Thats why many anglicans moved to the catholic church.. It may have failed members but its teaching are clear on this area.
Sad to see David Norris life, Is he any happier with his string of partners?0 -
On our news in Ulster it is reported that a 20,000-people phone survey in the Republic today had about 50% in support of him continuing his campaign for President.
Is that representative of how so many Irish people treat paedophilia? I mean, he still defends his support for his ex-lover, but admits he neglected the case of the victim. This is the RCC defence! - 'We had compassion on our erring colleague, but failed to adequately consider the case of the victims'.
Please tell me the great majority of Irish people regard Norris with contempt, now that they know his views.
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Matthew 18:10 “Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven.0 -
On a point of fact, it's ephebophilia, not paedophilia in the Israeli case (not to defend his actions).
And quite what this has to do with Clerical abuse, I don't know.0 -
On a point of fact, it's ephebophilia, not paedophilia in the Israeli case (not to defend his actions).
And quite what this has to do with Clerical abuse, I don't know.
I think he is saying that if we can tolerate one form of evil then another form of evil can expect the same door to be opened; that if society can justify one kind of debauchery, then why not another.
Where is the line and who is drawing that line?0 -
I believe this is a crucial indicator of how things will evolve in the West. The ground-work is being laid for the legalization of man/boy sex. That will apply also to woman/girl sex, in this age of equality.
Maybe the disapproval will move from the act to the context - just as with sexual harassment adult/adult. The paedophile priests who intimidate will get jailed, the paedophile actors and others who seduce or buy the favour will be thought of as 'chic'. Gary Glitter was just before his time.
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Matthew 18:10 “Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven.
Strangely enough, i remember my brother saying this about 5 years ago and me responding, 'No way, things will never go that far'. I subsequently revisited my position and I sadly believe that indeed it will go that way.
The Norris thing truly does show up the double standards. If those views were expressed by some bishop, it'd be condemnation all round, but with Norris its a 'witch-hunt' (And before any RC decries persecution, we should be condemning both Norris AND the RCC, VERY, VERY STRONGLY). With the worlds obsession with sex (Crazy how a lot of Christians are accused of this obsession, when its mostly reactionary to the the publics obsession with it) I think down is the only direction I can see. Morality with no root, is just meaningless and malleable, and ultimately destructive. I just think the ingredient missing is time. I pray its many generations away.0 -
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Strangely enough, i remember my brother saying this about 5 years ago and me responding, 'No way, things will never go that far'. I subsequently revisited my position and I sadly believe that indeed it will go that way.
I would be more than shocked if this ever happened. The changes in legislation alone would not happen.The Norris thing truly does show up the double standards. If those views were expressed by some bishop, it'd be condemnation all round, but with Norris its a 'witch-hunt' (And before any RC decries persecution, we should be condemning both Norris AND the RCC, VERY, VERY STRONGLY). With the worlds obsession with sex (Crazy how a lot of Christians are accused of this obsession, when its mostly reactionary to the the publics obsession with it) I think down is the only direction I can see. Morality with no root, is just meaningless and malleable, and ultimately destructive. I just think the ingredient missing is time. I pray its many generations away.
I think that I had Norris in my number 1 spot but I was going to do some research into what he actually said with respect to the whole pederasty thing. Still, it's an interesting thought. I wonder if a survey could be conducted to determine if there was double standards going on in public opinion.0 -
Fanny Cradock wrote: »I would be more than shocked if this ever happened. The changes in legislation alone would not happen.
Hello me from 5 years ago. DONT buy that house, its all gonna crash!!:)0 -
Many of the clerical abuse cases involved adolescents. We still class that as abuse. Technically it is not paedophilia, but it is near enough to it to warrant our condemnation. An 11yr old who has went through pubescence cannot be regarded as a legitimate object of sexual desire.On a point of fact, it's ephebophilia, not paedophilia in the Israeli case (not to defend his actions).
And quite what this has to do with Clerical abuse, I don't know.
Those who argue for adult-adolescent sex are perverts, be they politicians, priests or performers. They should be ostracised, not elected/indulged/adulated.
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Matthew 18:10 “Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven.0 -
On our news in Ulster it is reported that a 20,000-people phone survey in the Republic today had about 50% in support of him continuing his campaign for President.
Is that representative of how so many Irish people treat paedophilia? I mean, he still defends his support for his ex-lover, but admits he neglected the case of the victim. This is the RCC defence! - 'We had compassion on our erring colleague, but failed to adequately consider the case of the victims'.
Please tell me the great majority of Irish people regard Norris with contempt, now that they know his views.
We do. On this specific issue. Most Irish People see having sex with a 15 year boy by an older man as repulsive. Norris should never have written the letter.
But he gave a interview some years ago saying that he did not believe in age of consent was that if a boy wanted to have sex that he did not see anything wrong, drawing reference to greece in ancient times. So when the letter came out it became clear...
The whole thing is sick.0 -
Fanny Cradock wrote: »I would be more than shocked if this ever happened. The changes in legislation alone would not happen. .
I'll give a serious response now:) As i said, I thought exactly like you. Instinct alone just makes a person gawp at the suggestion that such a thing could happen, and I still gawp at it. But then i got to thinking with each subtle change in socieatal attitude, or opinion piece, be it on the net, or various media outlets and I'll lay it out for you below.
1) Firstly, something from within myself, a very frightening thing, immunity. I recall the first time i ever heard that there were people who would rape children. It was the Brendan Smyth case, and it was all over the media. I was about 12 or 13 at the time, and I remember being very confused at this behaviour. I remember my thoughts, 'He's a what? They like to do what? he did what?' With each case, and my gradual maturity the horror of this really sunk in. And tbh, a part of my innocence had fleeted with the knowledge that such things happened. However, over the years, there has been abuse case after abuse case. It no longer invokes the true horror it should. As awful as it is to say it, its so regular in the news, that its almost like, 'Bloody hell, another one'. It doesn't move me in the same way. I have to actually settle my mind on it to make myself react like I did back when all this stuff first hit the headlines. Tell myself to realise this is as horrific now as it was then, as I said, its almost an immunity.
2) There is absolutely no desire in the Justice system to tackle the issue in any meaningful way. We have child rapists getting low sentances, while a guy who defrauded the social welfare gets 12 years. So the system does not recognise it as something worthy of severe punishment.
3) The sexualisation of minors. Innappropriate clothing and media, like music video. Britney Spears famous schoolgirl video, belly tops for prepubecents with words like 'Sexy' etc emblazaned on them. 'Playboy' being a brand that you'll see on pencil cases and class supplies. Everywhere is 'Sex, Sex, Sex' whatever is being sold.
4) The apathy towards young teens having sex. 'Sure they're going to do it anyway'.
5) The culture of sex that is rife in adult life. Only the naive will think that societies sex obsession will not rub off on children.
6) Desire is king, condemn any idea that seeks to encourage self control.
7) A malleable morality, grounded in nothing of substance. This decades shock and disgust, can be next decades 'meh'. Unfortunately, organisations like the RCC have so corrupted and infected the idea of Christianity and its morality through their absolutely disgusting behaviour in relation to child rape, that they have stumbled so many away from God. It is now easy to scoff at someone who believes in God expressing views on morality. People feel liberated from the authritarian Religions, and there is now a culture of 'Its none of my business what you want to do with yer bits'.
8) People being able to create and believe their own sophistry in relation to killing our unborn children. Going so far as saying that it is an actual RIGHT that mothers should have. Allowing themselves get into issues of, 'Well what IS a person' etc. TBH, if people can allow themselves think like this, anything is possible IMO. People calling the unborn 'parasites' gives just a little insight into the sophistry some can believe.
9) All it takes is for it not to be classed as abusive. All those who bow to the alter of Science need, is a few studies that show that 100 ten year olds in Sweden who were in 'consensual' relations with older people (Or as Norris put it, were taken under their wing), grew up to go to college, have a good job and enjoy a pint with friends. Then its up to you to show how this is wrong. So like Wolfsbane said, the raping etc will remain illegal, but a new layer of of 'consent' may enter the fray.
10) The modern worldview does not recognise 'perversion', as there is no normal sexuality. There is no normal sexual practice, meaning that there is no abnormal sexual practice. Someone who wants to be spat on and whipped, or who desires sex with children, is as sexually normal as you or I. It just so happens that because the paedophile can't act on his desire due to there being no avenue of consent. 'Consent' is the only thing standing in the way, and if sophistry can be used to kill our own unborn children, is it really a million miles away to think that similar sophistry wont find a way around the issue of consent?
Now I'm not saying this is all going to happen overnight, or even that it will happen as I have laid out. I think that there is enough evidence out there though, to show that its not the impossibility I once thought it was. I still hold on to a little hope, but its eroding.0 -
@ JimiTime Post #1726.
Society has moved to open up sex to a state of do whatever you like. (Practically). I have a Gay Friend, no openly Gay, but to his friends he is, He is Catholic goes to Mass and lives a Catholic life, But he would openly say to us that Gay lifestyle was the worse choice he ever made, Its all about to egos looking for their own pleasures. Normal Natural Sex is between a Man and a Women with the intention of making a family. A Man out to score at a nightclub getting different women just ends up feeding his addiction and his ego.
Whats worse to now have dysfunctional Gay Couples adopting childs and teaching them.
I want to be clear.. We hate the SIN not the SINNER. I am not targeting Gay people in Person, I don't judge the Person, but the lifestyle that people think will make them happy.... For me living a Catholic lifestyle .. as the Catholic Church teachs has always made me happy. But the Key point is to Know Christ and too many people today don't know him0 -
@ JimiTime Post #1726.
Society has moved to open up sex to a state of do whatever you like. (Practically). I have a Gay Friend, no openly Gay, but to his friends he is, He is Catholic goes to Mass and lives a Catholic life, But he would openly say to us that Gay lifestyle was the worse choice he ever made, Its all about to egos looking for their own pleasures. Normal Natural Sex is between a Man and a Women with the intention of making a family. A Man out to score at a nightclub getting different women just ends up feeding his addiction and his ego.
Whats worse to now have dysfunctional Gay Couples adopting childs and teaching them.
I want to be clear.. We hate the SIN not the SINNER. I am not targeting Gay people in Person, I don't judge the Person, but the lifestyle that people think will make them happy.... For me living a Catholic lifestyle .. as the Catholic Church teachs has always made me happy. But the Key point is to Know Christ and too many people today don't know him
I find it hard to believe he used the word choice.
What an absolutely bigoted post, dressed up in typical Catholic spiel.0 -
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gimmebroadband wrote: ».
What an absolutely bigoted post, dressed up in typical Anti-Catholic spiel.
Explain how my post was anti-Catholic?
Do you agree with alex73 w/regards to homosexuality?0 -
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gimmebroadband wrote: »The term 'typical Catholic spiel' sounded derogatory.
Sodomy is sinful!
My derision is hardly bigotry, though.
So yes, you do.
Carry on...0 -
My derision is hardly bigotry, though.
So yes, you do.
Carry on...
Derision against Catholics, or the Catholic Church is a form of bigotry!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Catholicism0 -
It's ironic isn't it; Norris won't be president because he exercised his right to free-speech.
He must be thinking, 'If only I'd lied about my true feelings, then I'd have been trustworthy'.
Because we all know that presidents are trustworthy.
Like Priests.
Norris is a bad man because he told the truth and Priests are good men because they lie.
It's ironic.0 -
himnextdoor wrote: »It's ironic isn't it; Norris won't be president because he exercised his right to free-speech.
He must be thinking, 'If only I'd lied about my true feelings, then I'd have been trustworthy'.
Because we all know that presidents are trustworthy.
Like Priests.
Norris is a bad man because he told the truth and Priests are good men because they lie.
It's ironic.
Ironic that he wasn't 'truthful' at the beginning of his presidential campaign and only admitted it when found out- same as certain priests who were abusers, and not PRIESTS the way you blanket it!0 -
The idea that the billion people in the catholic church are individuals who chose this religion is just nonsense. This includes anybody who was baptised, a lot of whom are not catholics, their parents were. Now that they have stopped the process of officially leaving, there are 1000s of people who are unwilling members. I am lucky that I got out before they put a stop to the countmeout.ie avenue of doing it. Not sure how you would go about it now.
Anti-catholicism is a natural enough reaction to the history of the organisation. It might not be helpful but it is entirely understandable. The citing of statistics of how many children were abused by RCC as opposed to other organisations means nothing - NO OTHER ORGANISATION routinely covered up & lied about the abuse until it was dragged out of them and actually harboured & allowed rapists to continue.
This is one reason for anti-catholicism - some others might include its lack of progression along with the rest of the world in its views towards homosexuality, women's rights, contraception, its own wealth.
I really don't understand why people feel their relationship with a god needs to be through channels proven to be corrupt and so utterly hypocritical in its actions versus what it preaches.
My own atheism is another reason why I am anti-catholic but I know plenty of people who feel they have a relationship with god who now realise that the RCC have not aided tht relationship in any way and have let their members down at every turn.0 -
The idea that the billion people in the catholic church are individuals who chose this religion is just nonsense. This includes anybody who was baptised, a lot of whom are not catholics, their parents were. Now that they have stopped the process of officially leaving, there are 1000s of people who are unwilling members. I am lucky that I got out before they put a stop to the countmeout.ie avenue of doing it. Not sure how you would go about it now.
Anti-catholicism is a natural enough reaction to the history of the organisation. It might not be helpful but it is entirely understandable. The citing of statistics of how many children were abused by RCC as opposed to other organisations means nothing - NO OTHER ORGANISATION routinely covered up & lied about the abuse until it was dragged out of them and actually harboured & allowed rapists to continue.
This is one reason for anti-catholicism - some others might include its lack of progression along with the rest of the world in its views towards homosexuality, women's rights, contraception, its own wealth.
I really don't understand why people feel their relationship with a god needs to be through channels proven to be corrupt and so utterly hypocritical in its actions versus what it preaches.
My own atheism is another reason why I am anti-catholic but I know plenty of people who feel they have a relationship with god who now realise that the RCC have not aided tht relationship in any way and have let their members down at every turn.
Many catholics who were baptised as infants also chose to stay. There is a growing secularism worldwide and the CC is not the only church to see a decline of people losing the faith. You let what some clergy did (which was despicable), cloud your judgement of what the catholic church is really about. It's not about a Hierarchial Institution, it's the mystical Body of Christ Himself, and their mission is to spread the gospel and administer the Sacraments as handed down through the Apostles and their successors. The Church has been through many tough times down through the centuries, and with the help of the Holy Spirit has managed to overcome it's failures - the Gospel and the Sacraments were never an issue, weak men were!
http://www.irishcatholic.ie/site/content/vatican-response-cloyne-will-be-key-test-john-allen
"In Ireland, one could argue that the central failure in Cloyne under former Bishop John Magee wasn't so much blind obedience to the Vatican, but defiance of it. Beginning in 2001, Rome took a harder line on abuse cases, requiring that accusations be forwarded to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and advising bishops to cooperate with police and prosecutors.
Obviously that's not the path Dr Magee followed, perhaps because, as a former private secretary to three Popes, he felt free to do as he liked. In that sense, the Cloyne story may be less about a Vatican-orchestrated cover-up, and more about a lack of oversight for bishops.
It's also possible to point out that there was a Government report on Cloyne partly because the Catholic Church in Ireland conducted its own investigation in 2008. The Church's National Board for Safeguarding Children was bitterly critical of Bishop Magee at the time, so much so that his aides actually threatened to sue. One might thus contend that Cloyne proves the Church's new safeguards, however belated, actually work."0 -
gimmebroadband wrote: »You let what some clergy did (which was despicable), cloud your judgement of what the catholic church is really about.
No, I don't. I am not so stupid as to belive every priest is a rapist but yep, it certainly informs my opinion along with many other things.0 -
@ JimiTime Post #1726.
Society has moved to open up sex to a state of do whatever you like. (Practically).
I agree. 'Its not my cup of tea, but whatever you're into' is pretty much how a lot of people handle perversion.I have a Gay Friend, not openly Gay, but to his friends he is. He is Catholic goes to Mass and lives a Catholic life, But he would openly say to us that Gay lifestyle was the worse choice he ever made
So he has given up that lifestyle now?, Its all about to egos looking for their own pleasures. Normal Natural Sex is between a Man and a Women with the intention of making a family. A Man out to score at a nightclub getting different women just ends up feeding his addiction and his ego.
TBH, there may have been a time when this was mainly concentrated in gay circles, but this is rife in the heterosexual world too. Illicit sex and seeking out short term ego thrills is definately a socieatal issue, be it homo or hetero.0 -
gimmebroadband wrote: »You let what some clergy did (which was despicable), cloud your judgement of what the catholic church is really about.
If this issue was about the despicable acts that priests done, then the RCC could plead innocence and regret for the abuse of power and trust some of its clery were guilty of. However, THE BIGGEST ISSUE in this whole sordid affair, is how the RCC actually dealt with the issue. No reasonable person would attack the RCC because of a rogue priest, just like no-one would condemn tesco's because one of their till operators was short changing customers. The BIG ISSUE is what happened when they were informed of the abuse. Not only did they try and silence the victims, but they also provided the perpetrators with the means to continue the abuse. Their behaviour has been one of contempt towards both victims and the law of the land. They have also brought Christs name into disrepute, stumbling many. The guilty are what the RCC would claim are the modern equivalent of Apostles. Cardinals, Bishops etc. To try paint this as a few rogues is merely delusion.
I've often hearrd it argued 'the proportion of child abuse that has occurred in the RCC is actually fairly low compared to other quarters etc'. Those who make such comments have absolutely no clue as to the REAL ISSUE. The abuse is disgusting, it has ruined countless lives, BUT, the abuse is something that is on the heads of the individuals. The Issue, is what the RCC done when confronted with these guilty people. You think that people would be up in arms about the RCC if it responded to these acts properly? No, they wouldn't. Just the same as if a tesco employee is found to be short changing customers, you would only hold tesco to account if they did nothing (or to make the analogy more accurate, moved them on to a different branch to continue to steal) when the person was brought to their attention.
On a side note, I do believe that there are people just foaming at the mouth to rip the RCC to shreds, and Christianity for that matter. However, don't let their reaction to this scandal fool anyone into thinking that the RCC don't deserve the criticism. They brought the reproach upon themselves, and gave the wolves a bountiful meal.0 -
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If this issue was about the despicable acts that priests done, then the RCC could plead innocence and regret for the abuse of power and trust some of its clery were guilty of. However, THE BIGGEST ISSUE in this whole sordid affair, is how the RCC actually dealt with the issue. No reasonable person would attack the RCC because of a rogue priest, just like no-one would condemn tesco's because one of their till operators was short changing customers. The BIG ISSUE is what happened when they were informed of the abuse. Not only did they try and silence the victims, but they also provided the perpetrators with the means to continue the abuse. Their behaviour has been one of contempt towards both victims and the law of the land. They have also brought Christs name into disrepute, stumbling many. The guilty are what the RCC would claim are the modern equivalent of Apostles. Cardinals, Bishops etc. To try paint this as a few rogues is merely delusion.
I've often hearrd it argued 'the proportion of child abuse that has occurred in the RCC is actually fairly low compared to other quarters etc'. Those who make such comments have absolutely no clue as to the REAL ISSUE. The abuse is disgusting, it has ruined countless lives, BUT, the abuse is something that is on the heads of the individuals. The Issue, is what the RCC done when confronted with these guilty people. You think that people would be up in arms about the RCC if it responded to these acts properly? No, they wouldn't. Just the same as if a tesco employee is found to be short changing customers, you would only hold tesco to account if they did nothing (or to make the analogy more accurate, moved them on to a different branch to continue to steal) when the person was brought to their attention.
On a side note, I do believe that there are people just foaming at the mouth to rip the RCC to shreds, and Christianity for that matter. However, don't let their reaction to this scandal fool anyone into thinking that the RCC don't deserve the criticism. They brought the reproach upon themselves, and gave the wolves a bountiful meal.
The thing is that the RCC are dealing with it since 2001, it's certain Bishops and Cardinals that are not complying with the directives of the Vatican - they should be removed and swiftly!0
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