The Clerical Child Abuse Thread (merged)

prinz · 05-08-2011 11:05am

optogirl wrote: »

- NO OTHER ORGANISATION routinely covered up & lied about the abuse until it was dragged out of them and actually harboured & allowed rapists to continue..

Yes, other organisations did. That's not to spread the blame around, but to claim that no other organisation covered up abuse is demonstrably false.

optogirl · 05-08-2011 11:06am

prinz wrote: »

Yes, other organisations did. That's not to spread the blame around, but to claim that no other organisation covered up abuse is demonstrably false.

Please elaborate on this one.

gimmebroadband · 05-08-2011 11:12am

optogirl wrote: »

Please elaborate on this one.

http://ctscatholiccompass.org/new-from-cts/cover-up/

However, is the Catholic Church alone guilty of this? According to an article in The Guardian (29 April 2010): ‘The Boy Scouts of America has been accused of covering up decades of child abuse in order to protect their reputation of what is now a billion dollar organization.’

Phil Lawler writes at www.catholicculture.org that ‘Schools, police departments, families, media outlets, non-profit associations not to mention other religious denominations (have been) all guilty of cover-up.’ Ought all these institutions ‘examine the past, apologize, and take steps to guarantee that similar offenses will bring prompt redress in the future?’

In The God Delusion, Richard Dawkins writes: ‘All of the three boarding schools I attended employed teachers whose affection for small boys overstepped the bounds of propriety.’ Dawkins does not suggest that they were forced out and handed over to the police for any criminal behaviour.
Other vulnerable groups have been subjected to a variety of types of abuse. People with learning disabilities were abused in institutions for decades, leading to the Ely Hospital inquiry (1968-9), the Longcare inquiry (1998) and the recent Cornwall inquiry.

optogirl · 05-08-2011 11:21am

gimmebroadband wrote: »

http://ctscatholiccompass.org/new-from-cts/cover-up/

However, is the Catholic Church alone guilty of this? According to an article in The Guardian (29 April 2010): ‘The Boy Scouts of America has been accused of covering up decades of child abuse in order to protect their reputation of what is now a billion dollar organization.’

Phil Lawler writes at www.catholicculture.org that ‘Schools, police departments, families, media outlets, non-profit associations not to mention other religious denominations (have been) all guilty of cover-up.’ Ought all these institutions ‘examine the past, apologize, and take steps to guarantee that similar offenses will bring prompt redress in the future?’

In The God Delusion, Richard Dawkins writes: ‘All of the three boarding schools I attended employed teachers whose affection for small boys overstepped the bounds of propriety.’ Dawkins does not suggest that they were forced out and handed over to the police for any criminal behaviour.
Other vulnerable groups have been subjected to a variety of types of abuse. People with learning disabilities were abused in institutions for decades, leading to the Ely Hospital inquiry (1968-9), the Longcare inquiry (1998) and the recent Cornwall inquiry.

Of course any reports of child abuse should be investigated - nobody is suggesting that that should be for the RCC only. There is no suggestion here that people went to the authorities with complaints and that the alleged abusers were moved along to continue abuse.

prinz · 05-08-2011 11:46am

optogirl wrote: »

Please elaborate on this one.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/lawsuit_boy_scouts_covered_up_sex_rBjXDlRvOXHpNUJXSC8SNL

In a growing scandal threatening to rival the crisis hitting the Roman Catholic church, the Boy Scouts of America has been accused of covering up decades of child abuse in order to protect the reputation of what is now a billion-dollar organisation.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/apr/29/boy-scouts-sexual-abuse-dykes

Apparently the Boy Scouts have long kept an extensive archive of secret documents that chronicle the sexual abuse of young boys by Scout leaders over the years. Scouts officials reportedly gave the documents the charming name of the "perversion files."
On Monday, jurors saw letters and documents from the confidential file. In one letter, a Scout council executive in an unidentified town said that a Scoutmaster who slept in the nude and showed pornographic books to Cub Scouts only showed bad judgment and shouldn't be dismissed.
Another document, from 1973, noted that a Scoutmaster who admitted sexual abuse was allowed to return to his duties after seeing a psychiatrist.

http://www.examiner.com/progressive-in-portland/perversion-files-boy-scouts-on-trial-oregon

And in Irish swimming circles, where abusers moved from swimming club to swimming club sometimes parting with glowing references and recommendations while allegations of abuse piled up..

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/the-drowning-of-the-truth-454176.html

Shortly after Moscow, another of O’Rourke’s victims tried to have him outed. As a 15-year-old boarder at King’s Hospital School, she confided to a teacher that O’Rourke, the pool manager, had repeatedly molested her. The teacher told a superior but no action was taken. Twenty years later, O’Rourke pleaded guilty in relation to that girl in Dublin Circuit Criminal Court. The school has no record of the complaint.
Similarly, when Gibney was dismissed as a coach from Glenalbyn club in Stillorgan in the early 1970s, the reason given was “insubordination”. He remained free for another 20 years to rape and molest child swimmers who thought he would make them champions.

He, Chalkie White and the husband of a swimmer abused by Gibney attended a meeting with three officials of the Leinster branch and informed them that Gibney was being investigated by gardai for crimes against children. They asked the officials to cancel a coaching course for 11 to 15 year olds scheduled to take place at Newpark under Gibney. The course went ahead after Gibney threatened to sue.

This was the Irish Amateur Swimming Association.

Graces7 · 05-08-2011 12:04pm

JimiTime wrote: »

If this issue was about the despicable acts that priests done, then the RCC could plead innocence and regret for the abuse of power and trust some of its clery were guilty of. However, THE BIGGEST ISSUE in this whole sordid affair, is how the RCC actually dealt with the issue. No reasonable person would attack the RCC because of a rogue priest, just like no-one would condemn tesco's because one of their till operators was short changing customers. The BIG ISSUE is what happened when they were informed of the abuse. Not only did they try and silence the victims, but they also provided the perpetrators with the means to continue the abuse. Their behaviour has been one of contempt towards both victims and the law of the land. They have also brought Christs name into disrepute, stumbling many. The guilty are what the RCC would claim are the modern equivalent of Apostles. Cardinals, Bishops etc. To try paint this as a few rogues is merely delusion.

I've often hearrd it argued 'the proportion of child abuse that has occurred in the RCC is actually fairly low compared to other quarters etc'. Those who make such comments have absolutely no clue as to the REAL ISSUE. The abuse is disgusting, it has ruined countless lives, BUT, the abuse is something that is on the heads of the individuals. The Issue, is what the RCC done when confronted with these guilty people. You think that people would be up in arms about the RCC if it responded to these acts properly? No, they wouldn't. Just the same as if a tesco employee is found to be short changing customers, you would only hold tesco to account if they did nothing (or to make the analogy more accurate, moved them on to a different branch to continue to steal) when the person was brought to their attention.

On a side note, I do believe that there are people just foaming at the mouth to rip the RCC to shreds, and Christianity for that matter. However, don't let their reaction to this scandal fool anyone into thinking that the RCC don't deserve the criticism. They brought the reproach upon themselves, and gave the wolves a bountiful meal.

This is "spin" of course. The official govt figures give it as 76%; way above any other organisation..and the Bishops still say "some" or "a few" There is no penitence; the only regret that have is that they were found out.

The great sadness is that we are losing souls now.

So many love the Church too much to tolerate all this impuirty.

Wise words you speak indeed.

prinz · 05-08-2011 12:06pm

Graces7 wrote: »

This is "spin" of course. The official govt figures give it as 76%; way above any other organisation...

Any idea where this figure is plucked from? Are you claiming that 76% of clerics abused or that clerics were responsible for 76% of abuse?

Graces7 · 05-08-2011 12:16pm

prinz wrote: »

Any idea where this figure is plucked from? Are you claiming that 76% of clerics abused or that clerics were responsible for 76% of abuse?

76 % priests/religious

An inside and totally reliable source.

prinz · 05-08-2011 12:25pm

Graces7 wrote: »

76% priests/religious An inside and totally reliable source.

An "inside and totally reliable source" isn't official government figures is it? Total twaddle btw.

JimiTime · 05-08-2011 12:32pm

Graces7 wrote: »

This is "spin" of course. The official govt figures give it as 76%; way above any other organisation..and the Bishops still say "some" or "a few" There is no penitence; the only regret that have is that they were found out.

The great sadness is that we are losing souls now.

So many love the Church too much to tolerate all this impuirty.

Wise words you speak indeed.

Thank you for your honest assessment of what has and is happening. I'm sure it is very hard to utter such words when you love your Church as you do.

May I ask, what do you think a faithful Catholic Christian like yourself should do in the face of this? Do you ignore it, and continue in your faith in Christ while staying under the RCC's banner? Do you think leaving the banner of the RCC is an option? As a non RC Christian looking in, it is very difficult to see why I should look to the RCC as a 'mother' spiritually speaking. As someone on the 'inside' as it were, would you mind if I pryed into your opinions on the above?

Also, I'm just wondering about the 76% figure. I thought that 70% of abuse was carried out by a friend or family member. Though i have to say, Be it 2% or be it 90%, the issue, from an organisational point of view, is more to do with how it was dealt with.

CiaranMT · 05-08-2011 12:36pm

gimmebroadband wrote: »

Derision against Catholics, or the Catholic Church is a form of bigotry!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Catholicism

A-ha, missed this little ninja-edit. Nearly got away with it too.

If you seriously think that my post is bigotry then you certainly aren't doing your RCC any favours by attempting to defend them.

JimiTime · 05-08-2011 12:46pm

gimmebroadband wrote: »

The thing is that the RCC are dealing with it since 2001, it's certain Bishops and Cardinals that are not complying with the directives of the Vatican - they should be removed and swiftly!

How many priests/bishops/cardinals/nuncios etc does it take before it becomes an issue with the RCC? Actions speak louder than words afterall. We often see companies saying and promoting one thing, but doing another. was there not a case in the past, of the current Pope being involved in not taking appropriate action in an abuse case?

CiaranMT · 05-08-2011 3:45pm

Brendan Smyth - Betrayal of Trust

RTÉ Player

Powerful viewing. Worth a watch for anyone who wants to find out how the RCC dealt with this case.

gimmebroadband · 05-08-2011 4:52pm

CiaranMT wrote: »

A-ha, missed this little ninja-edit. Nearly got away with it too.

If you seriously think that my post is bigotry then you certainly aren't doing your RCC any favours by attempting to defend them.

The clergy doesn't OWN the Church - Jesus does, as He is the founder, the conerstone, and that is who I follow, along with the other faithful clergy, if that's a problem for you, then tough!!

JimiTime · 05-08-2011 5:24pm

gimmebroadband wrote: »

The clergy doesn't OWN the Church - Jesus does, as He is the founder, the conerstone

Indeed. So where does that leave Peter?

JimiTime · 05-08-2011 5:25pm

CiaranMT wrote: »

Brendan Smyth - Betrayal of Trust

RTÉ Player

Powerful viewing. Worth a watch for anyone who wants to find out how the RCC dealt with this case.

Absolutely horrible to watch. so so sad:(

gimmebroadband · 05-08-2011 5:37pm

JimiTime wrote: »

Indeed. So where does that leave Peter?

Jesus founded the Church and gave the keys to Peter and his chair is still occupied by his successor! Knock yourself out bashing clerical abusers, they deserve it, the Mystical Body of Christ is much bigger than them, and will prevail as Jesus Himself promised it would!!

himnextdoor · 05-08-2011 8:59pm

gimmebroadband wrote: »

The clergy doesn't OWN the Church - Jesus does, as He is the founder, the conerstone, and that is who I follow, along with the other faithful clergy, if that's a problem for you, then tough!!

Unfortunately, Jesus is not available for questioning. Sound familiar?

Who needs Satan when we have the RCC?

gimmebroadband · 05-08-2011 9:49pm

himnextdoor wrote: »

Unfortunately, Jesus is not available for questioning. Sound familiar?

Who needs Satan when we have the RCC?

That's a bit over the top isn't it??? Judge not lest you yourself be judged!!! Believe me Satan is EVERYWHERE, look at the bigger picture, the world is Satan's oyster, and he spreads hatred everywhere!

CiaranMT · 05-08-2011 9:58pm

gimmebroadband wrote: »

The clergy doesn't OWN the Church - Jesus does, as He is the founder, the conerstone, and that is who I follow, along with the other faithful clergy, if that's a problem for you, then tough!!

What has any of that to do with what I said?

That's a bit over the top isn't it??? Judge not lest you yourself be judged!!! Believe me Satan is EVERYWHERE, look at the bigger picture, the world is Satan's oyster, and he spreads hatred everywhere!

People do enough damage. Pawning bad things off on this 'satan' or the will of your god is just a cop-out.

himnextdoor · 06-08-2011 4:43am

gimmebroadband wrote: »

That's a bit over the top isn't it??? Judge not lest you yourself be judged!!! Believe me Satan is EVERYWHERE, look at the bigger picture, the world is Satan's oyster, and he spreads hatred everywhere!

'Judge not lest you yourself be judged' is an abdication of responsibility. You might as well say, 'Don't use your brain or others will use theirs'.

Oh! But that's the idea, isn't it? Let celibate Popes proclaim on sexuality; let childless, frockwearing men decide what is in our children's best interests; let nuns allow 'private' meetings with little girls and boys; let those who hide from life give advice on life...grrrrr

I'm sorry, I didn't want to say it but Henry the eighth had the righ idea; the sooner the RCC is razed to the ground, the better. The Vatican should be 'auctioned off'.

But don't worry, there are plenty of other cults that the closed- or feeble-minded among the population can join.

Your credibility is ZERO.

himnextdoor · 06-08-2011 4:56am

gimmebroadband wrote: »

That's a bit over the top isn't it??? Judge not lest you yourself be judged!!! Believe me Satan is EVERYWHERE, look at the bigger picture, the world is Satan's oyster, and he spreads hatred everywhere!

And where did Satan come from?

Oops; a mistake perhaps? By the perfect one?

'Judging' by the world, God is a terrible designer and a lousy baby-sitter and a really lax boss.

Did you watch the video CiaranMT gave a link to?

The Church won't protect children but you protect the Church...look at the bigger picture...Satan has nothing to do with it...unless Satan is the God of Catholics. (The world is Satan's oyster? Thanks be to God for that.)

But you'd rather blame Adam, wouldn't you?

gimmebroadband · 06-08-2011 10:51am

himnextdoor wrote: »

Did you watch the video CiaranMT gave a link to?

The Church won't protect children but you protect the Church...look at the bigger picture...Satan has nothing to do with it...unless Satan is the God of Catholics.

It's obvious you have an axe to grind, and letting hatred see any good in the Catholic Church. In fact in 2011 child protection is a sight better in the CC that it is in the HSE etc. There is little chance of any danger to children today than in the 40s, 50s 60s etc.

God is nobody's baby-sitter, we have free will.

Brendan Smyth was an evil man for sure, now doubt about that. I have also seen many pictures of babies that have been slaughtered in the womb, some of them late-term who were murdered in abortion mills and dumped in dumpsters afterwards as if they were a piece of meat - now that is real EVIL!!!!

CiaranMT · 06-08-2011 11:28am

gimmebroadband wrote: »

It's obvious you have an axe to grind, and letting hatred see any good in the Catholic Church. In fact in 2011 child protection is a sight better in the CC that it is in the HSE etc. There is little chance of any danger to children today than in the 40s, 50s 60s etc.

God is nobody's baby-sitter, we have free will.

Brendan Smyth was an evil man for sure, now doubt about that. I have also seen many pictures of babies that have been slaughtered in the womb, some of them late-term who were murdered in abortion mills and dumped in dumpsters afterwards as if they were a piece of meat - now that is real EVIL!!!!

Again, abortion, nothing to do with Clerical abuse.

gimmebroadband · 06-08-2011 12:13pm

CiaranMT wrote: »

Again, abortion, nothing to do with Clerical abuse.

It's certainly not that's for sure, it's far more heinious!!!

CiaranMT · 06-08-2011 1:36pm

gimmebroadband wrote: »

It's certainly not that's for sure, it's far more heinious!!!

Fudge and deflect all you like.

himnextdoor · 06-08-2011 1:48pm

gimmebroadband wrote: »

It's certainly not that's for sure, it's far more heinious!!!

Excuse me, did you just say that abortion is worse than paedophilia?

gimmebroadband · 06-08-2011 2:34pm

CiaranMT wrote: »

Fudge and deflect all you like.

At least admit that the CC is more safer for children in 2011 than any other organisation.

gimmebroadband · 06-08-2011 2:36pm

himnextdoor wrote: »

Excuse me, did you just say that abortion is worse than paedophilia?

As a victim of child sexual abuse myself I can certainly say that abortion is far worse!! There are certain degrees of child abuse and I would say that abortion tops it all!!

Monty. · 06-08-2011 3:12pm

gimmebroadband wrote: »

At least admit that the CC is more safer for children in 2011 than any other organisation.

It may be a desirable aim, but no way is this proven true yet, far from it.

Policies continue to be mere windowdressing that the likes of McGee and his Cardinals can continue to ignore. Words and documents and committees mean nothing, actions count.

Research Cardinals Sodano, Bertone and Law before you make claims like this.

Powerful Cardinals like Sodano, Bertone and Law, and Bishops like Brady and McGee must be properly dealt with. Wrong is wrong. End of story.

The Clerical Child Abuse Thread (merged)

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