The Clerical Child Abuse Thread (merged)

himnextdoor

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

It makes me wonder if you will ever ask genuine questions rather than try score rhetorical points.

Brendan Smyth was buried as a 'Rev' and definitely was not a Christian.

Not a rhetorical point but an observed fact.

The time is past for questions; the Church is actually guilty of 'rhetoric' and some of us object to it.

Anyway, it's all been said; the RCC should never have the trust of the people again. They have tried to weasel their way out of their responsibilities to the faithful with mealy-mouthed statements designed to look like contrition and have even suggested, in my view, that it is a problem for the people of Ireland and not a problem with the Church as such.

Naivety is completely useless here.

At least there are some eyes and ears that have been opened and about time too!

In my view, and I'm entitled to it here as much as anywhere, Catholicism is synonymous with hypocrisy and stands for evil.

And the collection of gold.

I do not believe that that would be the will of any all-powerful God.

himnextdoor

PDN wrote: »

Maybe we could stay on the subject of clerical child abuse rather than messing around while himnextdoor pretends not to understand the Christian concepts off repentance and forgiveness?

I understand Christianity better than you do; it is a perversion of what Jesus taught.

Your book does not make sense. It is that simple and no matter what you say, the son of God would abhor paedophile Priests and would eject them from His Church if it were He who was really in control.

Priests, Bishops, Cardinals and Popes are guilty of frustrating justice for victims of clerical abuse. Fact! Not rhetoric.

And as long as there are people to speak in fovour of the Church I will be here to say: Do not trust an organisation that puts its own interests ahead of the protection of children.

And that's what the RCC did and is doing. Period.

Believe the RCC if you want to but I won't, anymore than I would put my children into a creche run by a repentant Myra Hindley (or equivalent).

It's not about me so would you quit with the obfuscating?

And a little even-handedness might no go amiss. (Or is 'shyte' more acceptable than 'sh*t'?)

PDN

himnextdoor wrote: »

I understand Christianity better than you do; it is a perversion of what Jesus taught.

Your book does not make sense. It is that simple

And, in a democratic society, you are free to hold those opinion (both as to our respective understandings of Christianity, and as to the Bible). You are free to express them in fora more suited to such antics. However, in this forum you are expected to abide by the Charter - a Charter that states that believers should not have to defend their faith from attack. So, if you pursue that particular little crusade then you will be banned.

If you have problems with the Charter then do not try to discuss them inthread. You can take them up with an Admin or in Feedback.

And as long as there are people to speak in fovour of the Church I will be here to say: Do not trust an organisation that puts its own interests ahead of the protection of children.

And I hope that those will say such things can continue to participate in this thread. But whether you will be here to say it rather depends on you mending your ways and learning to abide by the Forum Charter.

Believe the RCC if you want to but I won't, anymore than I would put my children into a creche run by a repentant Myra Hindley (or equivalent).

My interaction with you has implied no faith on my part in the RCC. Trying to paint those who disagree with you on anything as therefore condoning or agreeing with the RCC is, I must say, one of your more unpleasant ad hominem tactics.

It's not about me so would you quit with the obfuscating?

Wrong. What you post is all about you. You take responsibility for what you post. Asking you to abide by the Charter like everybody else is not obfuscation.

And a little even-handedness might no go amiss. (Or is 'shyte' more acceptable than 'sh*t'?)

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gimmebroadband

I thought this was an interesting article!!

"When people hear that my husband and I began exploring Catholicism in 2005, one of the first questions they often ask is, “What about the sexual abuse scandals? Didn’t that scare you away from the Church?”
They’re usually surprised when I report that the answer is no; in fact, the scandals and the negative media coverage actually increased my faith in the Church. Here’s why:"


Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/blog/why-the-scandals-increased-my-faith-in-the-church/#ixzz1UilwHZ6E

smokingman

Anyone know when the Vaticans reply to Enda Kennys speech is due and whether it will refer to the report due from Donegal?

gimmebroadband

smokingman wrote: »

Anyone know when the Vaticans reply to Enda Kennys speech is due and whether it will refer to the report due from Donegal?

"Rumours are circulating in Rome that the Vatican is planning something dramatic for the Irish Church in the next few months. The talk is that the number of dioceses will be significantly reduced from the current 26 and that most of our current bishops will be replaced."

http://www.irishcatholic.ie/site/content/case-radically-restructuring-our-hierarchy-david-quinn

Don't know anything about report from Donegal!

Monty.

gimmebroadband wrote: »

"Rumours are circulating in Rome that the Vatican is planning something dramatic for the Irish Church in the next few months.

Good, as long as its well thought out, and they also follow it up with something drastic and well thought out regarding the powerful trinity of Cardinals Sodano, Bertone and Law in the Vatican.

himnextdoor

Please look after your children. Don't assume that someone else will.

Teach them respect and teach them to not be 'afraid' of authority.

Listen to them; notice things like odd behaviour and question it. Whether it be Church or school, let your children know that they have a voice and that it will be heard.

Be brave yourself and stand up for your children; they were born honest. It is men who corrupt them. Men who are corrupt. You can't tell who is corrupt by looking at them but they are cowards and will not dare to directly incur the wrath of a parent.

They reign with fear, counter this with courage; it works almost every time.

Put yourself between your children and evil; protect them.

Don't assume that they are in safe hands; be sure!

Don't pray for guidance; lead the way.

All men and women are equal in the eyes of a true God.

God does not need the RCC, why do you?

Monty.

Also teach them that there are people who will try to skew and manipulate a sense of morality and abuse moral outrage for their own agenda and manipulation. These people are equally vile.

Fanny Cradock

Monty. wrote: »

These people are equally vile.

Enough, please.

Monty.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Enough, please.

My. Look what fell out of the tree when I gave it a shake . . . .

Fanny Cradock

Monty. wrote: »

My. Look what fell out of the tree when I gave it a shake . . . .

What would that be?

himnextdoor

LOL. All I'm saying is, it's your responsibility: don't abdicate and don't trust.

NEVER TRUST.

gimmebroadband

In many cases it's also prudent to look closer to home, eg babysitters, etc. In my own case and that of my siblings it was our grandfather! I was also sexually abused by a school bully! I pray for them!

himnextdoor

gimmebroadband wrote: »

In many cases it's also prudent to look closer to home, eg babysitters, etc. In my own case and that of my siblings it was our grandfather! I was also sexually abused by a school bully! I pray for them!

I just don't think that prayer is a good substitute for prison.

Although I understand how some form of meditation may be helpful to victims, it does not address criminality.

Child-abuse is perhaps the lowest form of cowardice but the protection of child-abusers by an organisation of which they are members is something else.

And abhorrant in and of itself.

My heart goes out to you and anyone who has suffered in this way but I cannot accept that the Church is an antidote to evil.

Fanny Cradock

Did somebody suggest that prayer was a substitute for prison?

gimmebroadband

himnextdoor wrote: »

I just don't think that prayer is a good substitute for prison.

Although I understand how some form of meditation may be helpful to victims, it does not address criminality.

Child-abuse is perhaps the lowest form of cowardice but the protection of child-abusers by an organisation of which they are members is something else.

And abhorrant in and of itself.

My heart goes out to you and anyone who has suffered in this way but I cannot accept that the Church is an antidote to evil.

In the Our Father, Jesus exhorts us to ask the Father to forgive us our trespasses as WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESPASS AGAINST US. Sure we can incarcerate those who done evil, but on the sermon on the mount, Jesus told us to pray for those who persecute us etc. I always pray for the immortal soul of my grandfather, how can I expect God to forgive me my sins, when I don't forgive those who sin against me!

God Bless!

himnextdoor

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Did somebody suggest that prayer was a substitute for prison?

I believe that the Pope did, as did his Cardinals and Bishops, etc, yes.

Would it be fair to characterise prison, and punishment in general, as a form of 'revenge'?

himnextdoor

gimmebroadband wrote: »

In the Our Father, Jesus exhorts us to ask the Father to forgive us our trespasses as WE FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESPASS AGAINST US. Sure we can incarcerate those who done evil, but on the sermon on the mount, Jesus told us to pray for those who persecute us etc. I always pray for the immortal soul of my grandfather, how can I expect God to forgive me my sins, when I don't forgive those who sin against me!

God Bless!

I think that penance is more important than forgiveness; debts ought to be paid.

Then forgiveness.

wolfsbane

himnextdoor wrote: »

I believe that the Pope did, as did his Cardinals and Bishops, etc, yes.

Would it be fair to characterise prison, and punishment in general, as a form of 'revenge'?

It is the State's God-given duty to punish the wicked. Christians are to forgive the repentant, but that does not mean the State must do so. Nor does it mean we are to put them in places of either temptation or of power to re-offend even when they get out of prison.

No paedophile or ex-paedophile should ever be permitted unsupervised access to children. He may be the most changed man in the world, but we don't know his heart.

*****************************************************************
Matthew 11:28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Monty.

himnextdoor wrote: »

I believe that the Pope did, as did his Cardinals and Bishops, etc, yes.

Can you find that quote then and provide a reputable link please

Fanny Cradock

himnextdoor wrote: »

Would it be fair to characterise prison, and punishment in general, as a form of 'revenge'?

The law is supposed to be above notions like revenge. It's not the victim; it's the arbitrator of justice and it stands in judgement over those accused. In many cases sentencing might be seen as purely punitive, or perhaps there is a rehabilitative element to it. But what has that got to do with the price of beans?

Alex Ferguson wrote:

I think my recollection of goalkeepers coming from Europe is that it's a learning process, it's a different game. Peter Schmeichel was the same when he came – his first away game was Wimbledon and they gave him a torrid time and then the following Saturday against Leeds United he lost a really bad goal. But Peter went on to be the greatest goalkeeper of all time possibly. The boy [De Gea] is only 20 years of age and it's a learning process for him too at the moment and he'll see it through. You just give him a pat on the head and say welcome to England.

Are you back to your old trick of quoting people but never actually addressing the quote in any way, himnextdoor?

himnextdoor

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

The law is supposed to be above notions like revenge. It's not the victim; it's the arbitrator of justice and it stands in judgement over those accused. In many cases sentencing might be seen as purely punitive, or perhaps there is a rehabilitative element to it. But what has that got to do with the price of beans?



Are you back to your old trick of quoting people but never actually addressing the quote in any way, himnextdoor?

So you are saying that punishment has nothing to do with revenge?

If punishment isn't 'society getting its own back', then what is the point of it?

And what does Alex Ferguson have to do with the price of cheese? You really should at least try to stay on topic.

Sheesh.

himnextdoor

Monty. wrote: »

Can you find that quote then and provide a reputable link please

OMG!!! Are you a Priest too?

Look back through this thread and find links to the Pope's letter. Look up Cardinal Brady and see what the plight of abused children meant to him.

Have a look at the film 'Betrayal of Trust' if you want to know more about the RCC's solution to paedophilia. Bishops and Cardinals wanted 'treatment', they said, rather than prosecution.

If you can't be bothered finding out what's already been said then I'm sorry, but I'm not going to waste my time with you.

I'll finish this later because I think that people like you are part of the problem; protect the Church and screw the kids is wholly unacceptable to me.

Watch this space. Later guys.

Monty.

himnextdoor wrote: »

OMG!!! Are you a Priest too?

Look back through this thread and find links to the Pope's letter. Look up Cardinal Brady and see what the plight of abused children meant to him.

Have a look at the film 'Betrayal of Trust' if you want to know more about the RCC's solution to paedophilia. Bishops and Cardinals wanted 'treatment', they said, rather than prosecution.

If you can't be bothered finding out what's already been said then I'm sorry, but I'm not going to waste my time with you.

I'll finish this later because I think that people like you are part of the problem; protect the Church and screw the kids is wholly unacceptable to me.

Watch this space. Later guys.

My very strong criticism of specific Cardinals and Bishops is well documented on this site. Particularly Cardinals Sodano, Bertone and Law, who are in my opinion the root cause of many current problems in the Church, but in true troll fashion you wish to ignore the specifically incompetent/corrupt and instead rant and rave about all Catholics and Clergy. Quelle surprise!

You claimed that the Pope, Cardinals, Bishops claim that prayer is a substitute for prison.

So never mind the childish temper tantrum distraction tactic attempt, please provide us with a reputable quote backing up your claim.

Which Pope, Cardinals and Bishops claimed this, how many and when ?

himnextdoor

Monty. wrote: »

My very strong criticism of specific Cardinals and Bishops is well documented on this site. Particularly Cardinals Sodano, Bertone and Law, who are in my opinion the root cause of many current problems in the Church, but in true troll fashion you wish to ignore the specifically incompetent/corrupt and instead rant and rave about all Catholics and Clergy. Quelle surprise!

You claimed that the Pope, Cardinals, Bishops claim that prayer is a substitute for prison.

So never mind the childish temper tantrum distraction tactic attempt, please provide us with a reputable quote backing up your claim.

Which Pope, Cardinals and Bishops claimed this, how many and when ?

In his letter, the Pope implores Irish Catholics to pray and fast - he says nothing about detection and incarceration.

'Pray and fast' - that is direct from the Pope - the current Pope!

Your sycophancy is sickening!

ISAW

himnextdoor wrote: »

In his letter, the Pope implores Irish Catholics to pray and fast - he says nothing about detection and incarceration.

'Pray and fast' - that is direct from the Pope - the current Pope!

Your sycophancy is sickening!

You are changing your claim!

In message 1819 you stated that

I believe that the Pope did, [say prayer was a substitute for prison] as did his Cardinals and Bishops, etc, yes.

You were asked "which pope cardinals and bishops?"

How does is fact that the current pope says people should pray evidence that the current pope and a host of cardinals and bishops all say prisons should be closed and replaced with people fasting and praying for criminals?

Where did bishops ( plural not one or two but dozens of them as you suggested) say "prayers should be substituted for prison"?

ISAW

Monty. wrote: »

Can you find that quote then and provide a reputable link please

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_and_Punishment

Questions which he cannot resolve well up in the murderer; feelings he had not foreseen or suspected torment his heart. God's truth and earthly law take their toll, and he feels forced at last to give himself up. He is forced even if it means dying in prison, so that he may once again be part of the people. The feeling of separation and isolation from mankind, nature, and the law of truth take their toll. The criminal decides to accept suffering so as to redeem his deed. But it is difficult for me to explain in full my thinking.

Link to http://www1.umn.edu/lol-russ/hpgary/Russ3421/lesson9.htm

radical and utilitarian ideas act to reinforce the innate egoism of Raskolnikov's character and, likewise, contempt for the lower qualities in Man and for His ideals. He even becomes fascinated with the majestic image of a Napoleonic personality who, in the interests of a higher social good, believes that he possesses a moral right to kill. Indeed, his "Napoleon-like" plan drags him to a well-calculated murder, the ultimate conclusion of his self-deception with utilitarianism

The wild East: crime and lawlessness in post-communist Russia
By Viktor Mikhaĭlovich Sergeev

See quote 16 on page 27



My point being about the rationalist/utilitarian model not being sufficient to dismiss human values and morality. Just because I encounter a wall I don't know how to break down does not mean I have to accept it of necessity being there nor that it is invunerable.

ISAW

himnextdoor wrote: »

In his letter, the Pope implores Irish Catholics to pray and fast - he says nothing about detection and incarceration.

'Pray and fast' - that is direct from the Pope - the current Pope!

There are quite a lot of things the Pope may not have referred to in his life. Do you assume all the thinks he has never referred to are that same as the things he opposes?
Or do you just think the Pope should go tabloid and appear on The Jeremy Kyle Show and discuss only sordid and seedy topics and forget about the higher things like prayer and meditation?

Monty.

himnextdoor wrote: »

In his letter, the Pope implores Irish Catholics to pray and fast - he says nothing about detection and incarceration.

'Pray and fast' - that is direct from the Pope - the current Pope!

Your sycophancy is sickening!

If the mods here are happy enough with this trolling, then I'll keep on feeding you untill you burst.

You claimed that the Pope, Cardinals, Bishops claimed that prayer is a substitute for prison.

Please provide us with a reputable quote backing up your claim.

Which Pope, Cardinals and Bishops claimed this, how many and when ?