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The Clerical Child Abuse Thread (merged)
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Because Catholic clergy and Brothers are a large group of celibate people - well, not that large - there are probably only a few thousand priests in the country - but there have been many cases of sex abuse and child abuse levelled against people from this celibate group.
You just have not being paying attention have you.
As regards large I supplied census figures as to when the alleged sexual abuse was highest.
Ther were about 25,000 religious in the Republic and the population was about 2.5 million million. I.e. religious were about one percent of the population. those are 1951 census
Over this period from 1920-1990s from memory there were less than 30 cases of priests. ( 24 maybe I think) There were about 150 of brothers nuns etc. mostly in the population of 170,000 children over the period.
There were thousands and thousands of non clerical sexual abusers and many of them abused both the population of 170,000 industrial school kids ( in fact 10 per cent of abuse was from outside the institution) and the five million or so non Industrial school kids over the 70 year period.
If you want the exact figures i can post the link from earlier
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74166684&postcount=1875
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74186082&postcount=1877
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74197463&postcount=1880No it was 12 not 182! I have before supplied census stats on the number of priests and brothers in Ireland in the 1950s.
http://www.cso.ie/census/census_1951_volume_3.htm
320 on page 17
about 5100 priests 11,600 nuns and 1625 brothers. and another 4000 theological students.
about 23,000 and that isn't including the lay staff in schools.
add to the 12 abusers of males the following of femaleshttp://www.childabusecommission.ie/rpt/03-09.php
9.94
Table 38: Position and Number of Reported Sexual Abusers – Female Industrial and Reformatory Schools
Lists 14 clergy of 188 sexual abusers of girls. A seriously high figure at round 7% but this still is saying that in the worst cases in Ireland 93% of abusers were not clergy!
Total = 26 priestsEven the Taoiseach had strong things to say in the Dail about a month ago.
Which he climbed down on and which is also mentioned here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74257992&postcount=90
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74315808&postcount=130Other groups eg golf clubs ( as you mention them ) do not have instances of their hierarchy shielding the offenders.
Indeed they do. many people who were involved in being put ointo nama or other shady dealers have had people inquiring for them at the club turned away.There must be what - a hundred thousand golfers, if not hundreds of thousands of golfers in the country, and yet no scandals have surfaced involving golf clubs in sex scandals.
That was not the point and only agrees with the one I made. If they are men only clubs then the suggestion that a man only club will lead to sexual abuse is disproved by the point you just made!
In addition the church was not involved in covering up a sex scandal. Members of the church did abuse children just as members of gold clubs or swimming clubs did.In the golfing section there is not a thread with almost 2200 posts on golfing child abuse.
Which given a mans only golfing fraternity only supports the point of "myth history" "witchhunts" and antiCatholicism. You see the number of reports and you assume that means the church must be assisting and covering up child abusers.Yet there is one with almost 2200 posts on clerical child abuse here.
All with different people continually making the same unsupported claims and depending on and supporting the media myths and not bothering to check the facts.Maybe if golf clubs enforced life long celibacy on its male members,
Which Buddhists and other non Catholic religious groups do - I made that point!did not allow female involvement / members,
Which many do not allow - that is another point I made!and have a culture and hierarchy like the Church,
In fact many have a deeper hierarchy. the church is a comparatively "flat" organization - I made that point earlier too!then child sex abuse in golf clubs would be comparable with clerical child sex abuse ?
But
1 - it isn't proving the men only rule is not a causal factor in child abuse
2. If it was ( and it is in pother groups since less than one per cent of abusers are priests) you would not mention it would you?Have you statistics for that ? Here in the Republic of Ireland most if not all clerical abuse seems to have been committed by Catholic clergy.
I'm blue in the face supplying stats about it!
It seems you have not been paying attention to what a "circular argument" is!
All clerical abuse is committed by clerics by definition!
If you are claiming Catholics as opposed to non catholic clergy I earlier provided Jenkins and shakeshaft as sources for that. Most Christian clerical abusers are not Catholics. Most clerical abusers are non christian e.g. rabbis etc. . Non clerics account for the vast majority e.g over 95 per cent of abusers. Catholic priests account for from les than 0.1 to less than one per cent. In other countries this may be as much as two per cent. In Ireland it is less than one.
as regards strictly christian clerics one would have to look at the proportions in the REpublic in the census. I would think about 5000 Roman Catholic priests and less than 500 of all the others put together so the Catholic proportionally just to be "on the level" would still be expected to be ten times greater than all the others put together.0 -
You just have not being paying attention have you.
As regards large I supplied census figures as to when the alleged sexual abuse was highest.
Ther were about 25,000 religious in the Republic and the population was about 2.5 million million. I.e. religious were about one percent of the population. those are 1951 census
Over this period from 1920-1990s from memory there were less than 30 cases of priests. ( 24 maybe I think) There were about 150 of brothers nuns etc. mostly in the population of 170,000 children over the period.
There were thousands and thousands of non clerical sexual abusers and many of them abused both the population of 170,000 industrial school kids ( in fact 10 per cent of abuse was from outside the institution) and the five million or so non Industrial school kids over the 70 year period.
If you want the exact figures i can post the link from earlier
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74166684&postcount=1875
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74186082&postcount=1877
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74197463&postcount=1880
add to the 12 abusers of males the following of females
Total = 26 priests
Which he climbed down on and which is also mentioned here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74257992&postcount=90
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74315808&postcount=130
Indeed they do. many people who were involved in being put ointo nama or other shady dealers have had people inquiring for them at the club turned away.
That was not the point and only agrees with the one I made. If they are men only clubs then the suggestion that a man only club will lead to sexual abuse is disproved by the point you just made!
In addition the church was not involved in covering up a sex scandal. Members of the church did abuse children just as members of gold clubs or swimming clubs did.
Which given a mans only golfing fraternity only supports the point of "myth history" "witchhunts" and antiCatholicism. You see the number of reports and you assume that means the church must be assisting and covering up child abusers.
All with different people continually making the same unsupported claims and depending on and supporting the media myths and not bothering to check the facts.
Which Buddhists and other non Catholic religious groups do - I made that point!
Which many do not allow - that is another point I made!
In fact many have a deeper hierarchy. the church is a comparatively "flat" organization - I made that point earlier too!
But
1 - it isn't proving the men only rule is not a causal factor in child abuse
2. If it was ( and it is in pother groups since less than one per cent of abusers are priests) you would not mention it would you?
I'm blue in the face supplying stats about it!
It seems you have not been paying attention to what a "circular argument" is!
All clerical abuse is committed by clerics by definition!
If you are claiming Catholics as opposed to non catholic clergy I earlier provided Jenkins and shakeshaft as sources for that. Most Christian clerical abusers are not Catholics. Most clerical abusers are non christian e.g. rabbis etc. . Non clerics account for the vast majority e.g over 95 per cent of abusers. Catholic priests account for from les than 0.1 to less than one per cent. In other countries this may be as much as two per cent. In Ireland it is less than one.
as regards strictly christian clerics one would have to look at the proportions in the REpublic in the census. I would think about 5000 Roman Catholic priests and less than 500 of all the others put together so the Catholic proportionally just to be "on the level" would still be expected to be ten times greater than all the others put together.
Great waffle but you did not answer the questions. Try harder next time.0 -
Great waffle but you did not answer the questions. Try harder next time.
But I did answer you question in detail.
We have no evidence whether a large number of child abusers are also members of golf clubs.
I think the possibility is that the level of abusers who are members of golf clubs may well be higher. We just don't know because there is no media concentration on golf club membership like there is on membership of the RC clergy. So your claim that the level in golf clubs is lower is unproven.
Mind you , given the historic facts it is more likely that pedophiles would be in places where there were children. so for example it is unlikely the propensity of pedophiles in retirement homes would be high since the access to potential victims would be sparse. So occupations that had access to children e.g. sports instructors, teachers, babysitters would have a higher level.
Ther is no waffle involved! I have supplied the published figures i.e. facts. All you have supplied is unsupported opinion.
And a "me too" answer claiming the previous reply is "just waffle" is well more than just waffle ...but not much more in your case:)0 -
A collection of news reports on clerical ministers who have sexually abused children other than the RCC.
http://www.reformation.comWe would be naïve and dishonest were we to say this is a Roman Catholic problem and has nothing to do with us because we have married and female priests in our church. Sin and abusive behavior know no ecclesial or other boundaries." Rt. Rev. William Persell, Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Chicago, Good Friday Sermon, 2002.0 -
No you did not. We are talking about abuse in Ireland and you made the astonishing claim "Other clergy are married and have higher rates of child abuse than Roman Catholics whether or not they own the property in which they are living."But I did answer you question in detail.
I asked "Have you statistics for that ? Here in the Republic of Ireland most if not all clerical abuse seems to have been committed by Catholic clergy."
You have not answered the question at all, never mind in detail.
Do pay attention and try harder.0 -
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gimmebroadband wrote: »A collection of news reports on clerical ministers who have sexually abused children other than the RCC.
Thats in the USA, where Protestantism is the main religion. Of course out of a population of hundreds of millions of people - nearly a hundred times the population of Ireland - you are going to get all types of people, all types of accusations, and all types of news reports / stories. Have you statistics for Ireland to help support ISAWS astonishing claim ? or even for the USA ?0 -
Thats in the USA, where Protestantism is the main religion. Of course out of a population of hundreds of millions of people - nearly a hundred times the population of Ireland - you are going to get all types of people, all types of accusations, and all types of news reports / stories. Have you statistics for Ireland to help support ISAWS astonishing claim ? or even for the USA ?
The point is that child abuse knows no bounds, creed, race or religion. If Baptists were the predominent religion in Ireland and not RC, I would hazard a guess that Baptists would be the biggest culprit. It's not a religion thing imho it's a cultural thing!0 -
Correct. But why is it so prevalent in the Roman Catholic Church, a church where there is a culture of child abuse - as we know to our cost in this country - and a church which forces celibacy on its clergy and hierarchy, and a church where there has been so much of a culture of cover up by this group of celibate men. Various official reports , including by the Irish government, have found child abuse "endemic" in the Roman Catholic church ; why is that?gimmebroadband wrote: »The point is that child abuse knows no bounds, creed, race or religion.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/may/20/irish-catholic-schools-child-abuse-claims0 -
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/10/14/national/main20120751.shtml
We could use something like this here. I know the argument for the church is, that they weren't all doing it, so the whole thing isn't rotten. But personally I feel that is a bit of a cop out, since in my opinion the church aided and abetted the abusers.
Oh, I guess I'd better quote it for people on mobiles.KANSAS CITY, Mo. - Kansas City's Catholic bishop was charged Friday with not telling police about child pornography found on a priest's computer, making him the highest-ranking U.S. Catholic official indicted on a charge of failing to protect children.
Kansas City-St. Joseph Catholic Diocese Bishop Robert Finn, the first U.S. bishop criminally charged with sheltering an abusive clergyman, pleaded not guilty to one misdemeanor count of failing to report suspected child abuse.
Jackson County Prosecutor Jean Peters Baker said Finn and his diocese, which also was charged with one count, had "reasonable cause" to suspect a child had been abused after learning of the images.
"Now that the grand jury investigation has resulted in this indictment, my office will pursue this case vigorously because it is about protecting children," Baker said. "I want to ensure there are no future failures to report resulting in other unsuspecting victims."
Read the indictment (.pdf format)
Finn has acknowledged that he and other diocese officials knew for months about hundreds of "disturbing" images of children that were discovered on a priest's computer but did not report the matter to authorities or turn over the computer.
In a statement issued through the diocese, Finn denied any wrongdoing and said he had begun work to overhaul the diocese's reporting policies and act on key findings of a diocese-commissioned investigation into its handling of Ratigan's case.
"Today, the Jackson County Prosecutor issued these charges against me personally and against the Diocese of Kansas City-St Joseph," said Finn, who officials said was not under arrest. "For our part, we will meet these announcements with a steady resolve and a vigorous defense."
After the Catholic sex abuse scandal erupted in 2002, grand juries in several regions reviewed how bishops handled claims against priests. However, most of the allegations were decades old and far beyond the statute of limitations. Until Finn was indicted Friday, no U.S. Catholic bishop had been criminally charged over how he responded to abuse claims, although some bishops had struck deals with local authorities to avoid prosecution against their dioceses.
CBS News correspondent Michelle Miller reports the indictment comes nearly 10 years after the nation's Catholic bishops pledged to report suspected abusers to police.
Terry McKiernan of BishopAccountability.org, which manages a public database of records on clergy abuse cases, called Friday's indictment especially important because it involved a recent case. He said the charge being a misdemeanor makes it no less significant.
"The taboo against acknowledging that bishops are responsible in these matters has been challenged," McKiernan said.
David Clohessy, of the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (SNAP) told CBS News, "We hope this is a beginning of a new era in which prosecutors will go after not just the pedophile priests but the Catholic bishops who enable their crimes and conceal them."
Finn acknowledged earlier this year that St. Patrick's School Principal Julie Hess had more than a year ago raised concerns that a priest was behaving inappropriately around children, but that he didn't read her written report until after the Rev. Shawn Ratigan was charged with child pornography counts this spring. Ratigan has pleaded not guilty.
In a memo dated May 19, 2010, Hess wrote that several people had complained Ratigan was taking compromising pictures of young children and that he allowed them to sit on his lap and reach into his pocket for candy.
Hess at the time gave the report to Monsignor Robert Murphy, the diocese's vicar general, who spoke with Ratigan about setting boundaries with children and then gave Finn a verbal summary of the letter and his meeting with the priest.
Seven months later, a computer technician working on Ratigan's laptop found hundreds of what he called "disturbing" images of children, most of them fully clothed with the focus on their crotch areas, and a series of pictures of a 2- to 3-year-old girl with her genitals exposed.
The computer was turned over to the diocese, where officials examined the photos and reported them to Murphy. Instead of reporting them to authorities, as required by Missouri's mandatory reporting law, Murphy called a police captain who is a member of the diocese's independent review board and described a single photo of a nude child that was not sexual in nature.
Without viewing the photo, Capt. Rick Smith said he was advised that although such a picture might meet the definition of child pornography, it probably wouldn't be investigated or prosecuted.
A diocese computer technician downloaded materials from Ratigan's computer onto a flash drive and Finn eventually returned the laptop to Ratigan's brother, who destroyed it.
Smith said he was shocked in May when Murphy told him there had been hundreds of photos on Ratigan's laptop, rather than a single image. Smith demanded the computer be turned over to police, but since the computer had been turned over to Ratigan's family, it handed over the flash drive, instead.
The New York Times reports that Bishop Finn was appointed in 2005 and his vision to return the diocese to more traditional practices has drawn strong opinions. The paper reports he is one of only a few bishops affiliated with Opus Dei, a conservative movement which, according to wikipedia, "organizes training in Catholic spirituality applied to daily life."0 -
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he has not given one statistic or fact to explain his astonishing claim that "Other clergy are married and have higher rates of child abuse than Roman Catholics whether or not they own the property in which they are living."The Quadratic Equation wrote: »We've been given lots of statistics and facts
Is it something else he made up ?0 -
But I did answer you question in detail.
We have no evidence whether a large number of child abusers are also members of golf clubs.
I think the possibility is that the level of abusers who are members of golf clubs may well be higher. We just don't know because there is no media concentration on golf club membership like there is on membership of the RC clergy. So your claim that the level in golf clubs is lower is unproven.
Mind you , given the historic facts it is more likely that pedophiles would be in places where there were children. so for example it is unlikely the propensity of pedophiles in retirement homes would be high since the access to potential victims would be sparse. So occupations that had access to children e.g. sports instructors, teachers, babysitters would have a higher level.
Ther is no waffle involved! I have supplied the published figures i.e. facts. All you have supplied is unsupported opinion.
And a "me too" answer claiming the previous reply is "just waffle" is well more than just waffle ...but not much more in your case:)
Ireland has not given a Special Position to golf clubs in the Constitution; nor has Ireland allowed golf clubs control of over 90% of the schools in Ireland; nor has Ireland allowed golf club rules/ethics to control the delivery of health services to needy patients.
The Church has run riot on the small bodies of children in Ireland. It enslaved, tortured, starved and used their small bodies for the sexual gratification of perverted clergy. The Church enriched itself from the forced labour of women and children in Institutions and Magdalene Asylums - indeed it sold the babies of young mothers to rich Catholics. It covered up those crimes against humanity with the support of a State in thrall to the Church.
That situation will not be allowed to happen ever again in Ireland. The Church has shot its last load and finger-pointing at other organisations is not going to change that.0 -
No you did not.
Yes I did! what specific question are you claiming I did not answer?We are talking about abuse in Ireland and you made the astonishing claim "Other clergy are married and have higher rates of child abuse than Roman Catholics whether or not they own the property in which they are living."
I relation to what issue? Can you cite the reference to where I stated that and we can look at the context of inheritance property ownership etc.I asked "Have you statistics for that ? Here in the Republic of Ireland most if not all clerical abuse seems to have been committed by Catholic clergy."
That would be your opinion. I would say you can not list even dozens of clergy over the last 50 years. I also pointed out that 95% of the population are Catholics over that period. If there is clerical abuse and non Catholics are 5% of the Christian population then there should be twenty times more RC clerics involved ion child abuse just to statistically "normalise" it. so for eery 20 Catholic clerics you should find one on Catholic clerics. Can you show the ratio is lower than 20 to 1?
And even them you are forgetting about the other 95% plus of non clerical abuse.You have not answered the question at all, never mind in detail.
I have given examples from Shakeshaft and Jenkins ( who is an ex Catholic) who both show the non clerical abuse as higher . Jenkins also refers to the higher rates among Protestant and Jewish clergy.
http://www.amazon.com/New-Anti-Catholicism-Last-Acceptable-Prejudice/dp/0195154800
I am not getting into a "Protestants are worse than Catholics" debate when it is clear that non Christian clergy abuse is over 95% of abusers.0 -
Ireland has not given a Special Position to golf clubs in the
Constitution;
Ireland does not give a special position to the church! It was removed decades ago. the right to form unions and clubs however remains. Article 40.6.1.3
No only properties much much bigger than schools. Your mask is slipping. you have switched from the point of "child abuse" being related to golf clubs as a comparison between the Church and other organisations such as golf clubs to a clear attack on the church as having a "special place" in the constitution and which should not be allowed in education or to have control over schools. If people want the local golf club management to run a school they have the right to campaign for that.nor has Ireland allowed golf clubs control of over 90% of the schools in Ireland;nor has Ireland allowed golf club rules/ethics to control the delivery of health services to needy patients.
Well now you are off on another tangent! If a golf club wants to run a hospital they are free to do so. AS iot happens religious orders did it for a pittance . The current "workers rights" public service run hospitals cost us billions per year!The Church has run riot on the small bodies of children in Ireland.
What evidence shows it was worse than the non-Church management?It enslaved, tortured, starved and used their small bodies for the sexual gratification of perverted clergy.
No it didn't. On the record we know 26 clergy abused children in a population of 170,000 industrial school children from the 1920s to the 1990s. How many of the other 5,000,000 non institution school children were abused by non clergy? Wher is you r evidence that "the Church" organised or facilitated abuse?The Church enriched itself from the forced labour of women and children in Institutions and Magdalene Asylums
You have been shown Magdalen Asylums were NOT set up by the Roman Church but by Protestants!- indeed it sold the babies of young mothers to rich Catholics.
Doubtfull. There again was not Church collusion. I have already referred to Sr. Patricia and Cherish.It covered up those crimes against humanity with the support of a State in thrall to the Church.
There have been no cases about such "crimes" let alone convictions! This is all a fiction. You are making up things you can't support! You conspiracy theory of "cover up" just doesn't wash! Where is you evidence?0 -
Yes I did! what specific question are you claiming I did not answer?
You have not given one statistic or fact to explain your astonishing claim that "Other clergy are married and have higher rates of child abuse than Roman Catholics whether or not they own the property in which they are living."
Is it something else you made up ?
Your link does not state anything about "Other clergy are married and have higher rates of child abuse than Roman Catholics".I have given examples from Shakeshaft and Jenkins ( who is an ex Catholic) who both show the non clerical abuse as higher . Jenkins also refers to the higher rates among Protestant and Jewish clergy.
http://www.amazon.com/New-Anti-Catholicism-Last-Acceptable-Prejudice/dp/0195154800
As regards " non clerical abuse as higher ", of course it is, because youu could count on one hand the number of thousand Priests and Brothers in the country , while there are a couple of million adults in the country. The clergy in Ireland unfortunately punch well above their weight when it comes to abusing others. Even our own government in its report said child sex abuse in the Roman Catholic church was " endemic".0 -
Have you had your head buried in the sand this last number of years ? Even 2 days ago in Kansas City,St. Joseph Catholic Diocese Bishop Robert Finn,was a U.S. bishop criminally charged with sheltering an abusive clergyman. Information on that was posted just a few posts ago - did you not read it ?. You are making up things you can't support! You conspiracy theory of "cover up" just doesn't wash! Where is you evidence?
Here in Ireland we have had numerous instances over the years eg Fr. Brendan Smyth case. The evil saga of Fr. Brendan Smyth’s years of abuse against children was covered up for decades by the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church. The present Cardinal, Sean Brady, was personally involved in silencing victims of Fr. Smyth as far back as 1975.
http://www.catholicabusesurvivorsni.com/?page_id=4070 -
You have not given one statistic or fact to explain your astonishing claim that "Other clergy are married and have higher rates of child abuse than Roman Catholics whether or not they own the property in which they are living."
Is it something else you made up ?
Actually I have given stats ....Jenkins. I referred to him several times.
You seem to have forgotten who made the original issue:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74930607&postcount=2159The cause of the Catholic clergy's sex-abuse scandal is no mystery: insular groups of men often do bad things. So why not break up the all-male club?
What do you mean by "something else" ? What something else are you suggesting I "made up?"
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65509576&postcount=862In fact the stats are HIGHER for Jews and Protestants but that again is a
DIFFERENT topic!
The data on the Protestant clergy tend to focus on sexual abuse in general,
not on sexual abuse of children. Thus, strict comparisons cannot always be
made. But there are some comparative data available on the subject of child
sexual molestation, and what has been reported is quite revealing.
In the spring of 2002, when the sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic Church
was receiving unprecedented attention, the Christian Science Monitor
reported on the results of national surveys by Christian Ministry Resources.
The conclusion: "Despite headlines focusing on the priest pedophile problem
in the Roman Catholic Church, most American churches being hit with child
sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant, and most of the alleged abusers are
not clergy or staff, but church volunteers."
Mark Clayton, "Sex Abuse Spans Spectrum of Churches," Christian Science
Monitor, April 5, 2002, p. 1
In the authoritative work by Penn State professor Philip Jenkins, Pedophiles
and Priests, it was determined that between .2 and 1.7 percent of priests
are pedophiles. The figure among the Protestant clergy ranges between 2 and
3 percent.
Philip Jenkins, Pedophiles and Priests (New York: Oxford University Press),
pp. 50 and 81.
Rabbi Arthur Gross Schaefer is a professor of law and ethics at Loyola
Marymount University. It is his belief that sexual abuse among rabbis
approximates that found among the Protestant clergy. According to one
study, 73 percent of women rabbis report instances of sexual harassment.
"Sadly," Rabbi Schaefer concludes, "our community's reactions up to this
point have been often based on keeping things quiet in an attempt to do
'damage control.' Fear of lawsuits and bad publicity have dictated an
atmosphere of hushed voices and outrage against those who dare to break
ranks by speaking out."
Rabbi Arthur Gross Schaefer, "Rabbi Sexual Misconduct: Crying Out for a
Communal Response," www.rrc.edu/journal, November 24, 2003.Your link does not state anything about "Other clergy are married and have higher rates of child abuse than Roman Catholics".
Some Orthodox and Protestant clergy can marry married
Rarely there are roman Catholic clergy that are married.
I didn't assert that they abuse because they are married.
I was pointing out one can not assert lack of marriage ( well celibacy actually but the point moved on to "other denomination" with married clergy ) is a causal factor in abuse if married people abuse at a higher rate.
In particular I would point to married non clergy
But the point is that when referring to "other clergy who marry" that is normally taken to be Protestant Clergy.
Jenkins above ( I specifically pointed him out as a Protestant ex catholic so one can not say he is academically biased towards this point) saysbetween .2 and 1.7 percent of priests
are pedophiles. The figure among the Protestant clergy ranges between 2 and
3 percent.
Got it?
Some Roman Catholic priests are married as are some Orthodox ( far more of them). But other denomination that allow marriage have even higher rates or child abuse. So allowing marriage as a solution to child abuse is not really a runner. In fact it depends I think on the "sexual frustration caused by celibacy causes child abuse" argument which is also a non runner.As regards " non clerical abuse as higher ", of course it is, because youu could count on one hand the number of thousand Priests and Brothers in the country ,
while there are a couple of million adults in the country.
No! You are still not getting it! Rates of non clerical abuse are higher.
Take a million people. Among them say there are exactly 1% clergy ~10,000.
You would expect that if there are 20,000 abusers in that population that 1% of those at least are clergy i.e. 200 . But what you find out is less than 1% are Clergy. You also find out less than 0.1% of Roman Catholic clergy are abusers. i.e. if ther are 10,000 clergy and of them 9,000 are roman catholic you have 9 or less Roman catholic abusers.
I produced the CSO and RIRB and Child commission reports on these.
WE had about 5,000 priests at any one time from 1920-1990. Say roughly 15,000 over the period. The commission lists 26 priests. One per cent is 150 priests . 26 is about 0.1%
Have you any stats showing Protestant clergy as lower than this? But again I don't want to go into an interdenominational row. the point is that even if all the other have a ten times higher rate you still have 95-99% of societies abusers who are NOT clergy!The clergy in Ireland unfortunately punch well above their weight when it comes to abusing others.
and you evidence for this is?
And if it were true it would work against the argument of a "worldwide cover up conspiracy" since you could not claim Ireland was a typical example and apply it to the whole world.
Ironically I have done a deal of analysis on the Ireland stats and others are saying "it is higher elsewhere" because I have not produced as much detail on elsewhere. But in the few cases I have looked ( US /UK) I found much the same pattern ~ tiny percentage clerical, vast majority ( in the ninties per centage plus range) non clerical.Even our own government in its report said child sex abuse in the Roman Catholic church was " endemic".
We dealt with that several times! gigino was wont to quote it.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73077537&postcount=1261That priests have a preference for black socks over really really really really really dark navy could be described as being endemic to priests.
...
There are sufficiently high levels of child abuse within families in Ireland to be able to say, using the government's understanding of the use of the word "endemic" and their general understanding of english, that child abuse is endemic in Irish families, if we are to believe all the reports and the media. So much so that there are Child Protection agencies in most counties.
It is also reasonable to say that ebephilia is particularly endemic in families while ephebophilia is more endemic in the teaching and coaching community, but again only while using an Irish government dictionary.
Pulling out the word "endemic" doesn't prove anything. In fact only about a page ago one of the following paragraphs was posted.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74914128&postcount=2148From the link you posted:
What’s worse, this abuse took place with the full knowledge and backing of the Irish government and the Vatican.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74914837&postcount=2151
Even our own Taoiseach said the Vatican obstructed an enquiry and ignored requests from Ireland for information. Even one of our own TD's Rabbitte said damning information would come about a cover up of Brendan Smyth. The government of the day collapsed over it and the information of the cover up never materialised.0 -
Ireland has not given a Special Position to golf clubs in the Constitution; nor has Ireland allowed golf clubs control of over 90% of the schools in Ireland; nor has Ireland allowed golf club rules/ethics to control the delivery of health services to needy patients.
The Church has run riot on the small bodies of children in Ireland. It enslaved, tortured, starved and used their small bodies for the sexual gratification of perverted clergy. The Church enriched itself from the forced labour of women and children in Institutions and Magdalene Asylums - indeed it sold the babies of young mothers to rich Catholics. It covered up those crimes against humanity with the support of a State in thrall to the Church.
That situation will not be allowed to happen ever again in Ireland. The Church has shot its last load and finger-pointing at other organisations is not going to change that.
Agreed. Its spin doctors can try to point to other organisations and blame them, but here in Ireland we know what devastation perverted clergy have wrought....way out of proportion to their percentage of the population. Priests/ religous only make up 00.1% of the population in Ireland , and yet look at the damage done. There are only a few thousand priests in Ireland now,as the number continues to decline.
Look at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sexual_abuse_scandal_in_Ireland
quote "Starting in the 1990s, a series of criminal cases and Irish government enquiries established that hundreds of priests had abused thousands of children in previous decades. In many cases, the abusing priests were moved to other parishes to avoid embarrassment or a scandal, assisted by senior clergy." We all know that. Some older Irish people know personally a dozen or more Priests - out of maybe several dozen priests altogether who would be known to them over the years - who would be known abusers or who would have sheltered abusers. Of course its only fair to say not all Priests are abusers, and a lot of people feel sorry for them , especially as they are trapped in an institution who harboured abusers. And do not talk about the Brothers
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Agreed. Its spin doctors can try to point to other organisations and blame them,
Says andyjo in a response to a post which specifically refers to other organisations!
Remember I didn't bring upi golf clubs. Other people did. they did the same for Mc Donalds and I trashed that claim too!
while you are backing the above line on "other organisations" while concurrently claiming that spin doctors bring up "other organisation" you have also ignored that you claim that I didnt supply a rate of abuse for Protestant clergy was false!
I supplied the stats from Jenkins here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65509576&postcount=862
in April 2010. But you ignore that and continually claim I didn't supply a reference!but here in Ireland we know what devastation perverted clergy have wrought....way out of proportion to their percentage of the population.
Exactly! The proportion of Catholic priests in society is much higher then their proportion of catholic priests who are child abusers. If two percent of Society is priests then all things being equal one would expect 2 % are abusers. But all things are not equal . Clergy had more access to children and had powerful positions so in fact it should be much higher. But when we look we fine it is over ten times lower then o0ne might expect!
How come that?Priests/ religous only make up 00.1% of the population in Ireland ,
Source? If ther were 5,000 priests in Ireland in 1950's ( and threee times or more that over the 1920-70 period) Then if that was 0.1% the population would be 5 million when it was at least half that. That is not including the other 20,000 or so (at any one time so it is a multiple of that brothers nuns etc)and yet look at the damage done.
Okay let us do that. What percentage of pedophiles are priests?There are only a few thousand priests in Ireland now,as the number continues to decline.
And ther are no new pedo priests in the last decade . And if you are saying a "few thousand" now then you admit it was muich higher in the past i.e.not 0.1 per cent
I have what in it do you assert supports you claim of percentages?quote "Starting in the 1990s, a series of criminal cases and Irish government enquiries established that hundreds of priests had abused thousands of children in previous decades.
What enquiry established that?In many cases, the abusing priests were moved to other parishes to avoid embarrassment or a scandal, assisted by senior clergy."
In how many cases. Two ? five? More? Assisted by how many bishops? Two? more?We all know that. Some older Irish people know personally a dozen or more Priests - out of maybe several dozen priests altogether who would be known to them over the years - who would be known abusers or who would have sheltered abusers.
What several people know this? Care to name them and we can ask them to list the bishops and priests involved?Of course its only fair to say not all Priests are abusers, and a lot of people feel sorry for them , especially as they are trapped in an institution who harboured abusers. And do not talk about the Brothers
You utterly fail to produce anything other than hearsay and unsupported percentages!
I produced published stats. Where are yours?0 -
Says andyjo in a response to a post which specifically refers to other organisations!
Remember I didn't bring upi golf clubs. Other people did. they did the same for Mc Donalds and I trashed that claim too!
while you are backing the above line on "other organisations" while concurrently claiming that spin doctors bring up "other organisation" you have also ignored that you claim that I didnt supply a rate of abuse for Protestant clergy was false!
I supplied the stats from Jenkins here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65509576&postcount=862
in April 2010. But you ignore that and continually claim I didn't supply a reference!
Exactly! The proportion of Catholic priests in society is much higher then their proportion of catholic priests who are child abusers. If two percent of Society is priests then all things being equal one would expect 2 % are abusers. But all things are not equal . Clergy had more access to children and had powerful positions so in fact it should be much higher. But when we look we fine it is over ten times lower then o0ne might expect!
How come that?
Source? If ther were 5,000 priests in Ireland in 1950's ( and threee times or more that over the 1920-70 period) Then if that was 0.1% the population would be 5 million when it was at least half that. That is not including the other 20,000 or so (at any one time so it is a multiple of that brothers nuns etc)
Okay let us do that. What percentage of pedophiles are priests?
And ther are no new pedo priests in the last decade . And if you are saying a "few thousand" now then you admit it was muich higher in the past i.e.not 0.1 per cent
I have what in it do you assert supports you claim of percentages?
What enquiry established that?
In how many cases. Two ? five? More? Assisted by how many bishops? Two? more?
What several people know this? Care to name them and we can ask them to list the bishops and priests involved?
You utterly fail to produce anything other than hearsay and unsupported percentages!
I produced published stats. Where are yours?
More untruths. You say you did not bring up "golf clubs". If you go back over the past number of posts, you will see that actually you did ! See post no. 2160.
And as regards percentages, you will see references in the wiki report - whose link I gave you - that ( and I quote ) " series of criminal cases and Irish government enquiries established that hundreds of priests had abused thousands of children ".[/U]
As regards the number of priests in Ireland, you can google that. I read in this thread that this was done for you before. Its currently about 3000 Roman Catholic priests - it was higher of course, and continues to decline.
Now you say you provided statistics - all you do is link to the title of some book by some lad called Jenkins in America. That shows or proves nothing. Is Ireland even mentioned in that book ? If you link to something he says, or better still the source of his research ( if any ), then that would be something.0 -
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More untruths. You say you did not bring up "golf clubs". If you go back over the past number of posts, you will see that actually you did ! See post no. 2160.
Which was a response to a post by YOU 2159 which brought up the "male only club"!
Which you put in bold
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74930607&postcount=2159
But I accept the contention about male only and female only "golf clubs" per se.
However the golf club was brought up iin response to YOUR mentioning the church as a unique example of a "male only club" You brought up the church as a "male only club" and I took up that point and asked you if your suggestion was correct why do you single out the church and how come your point applies to only the church and only to men in the church? why not to women or to any other organisation that ever existed that is men only the Free masons? Golf clubs? etc. You see one can not pick out a single example and apply it to a general case. One can take a general rule and cite a particular example. But it isn't a general rule because if it was it would apply to all male onbly clubs. What then is the significance of your categorisation of the church as a "male only club" - your words before I referred to golf clubs clearly the significance is not that it is male only or a club but just that you want to attack the Church.And as regards percentages, you will see references in the wiki report
Where in the Wikipedia report? Care to cite the actual reference?- whose link I gave you - that ( and I quote ) " series of criminal cases and Irish government enquiries established that hundreds of priests had abused thousands of children ".[/U]
What criminal cases and what government enquiries found that hundreds of priests in Ireland had abused children. If you take the broadest enquiry the child abuse commission which enquired into the worst abuse in Ireland specifically in the institutions run by Church orders. that enquire has been referenced several times by me. It encompassed 170,000 children who went to such institutions between `1920 and 1990.
And the report lists 26 abusing priests in total. Not "hundreds"! And this was in the worst cases of abuse spanning over 70 years!As regards the number of priests in Ireland, you can google that.
Rubbish! you don't even know what you are talking about! You stated i didnt supply any stats. I referred you to the 1951 census and other CSO and other figures. It shows over 20,000 religious in 1951 alone! What have you got other than "you can google it"
Apparently you demand statistics and accuse me of not supplying any and when shown the actual stats you ignore them and continue to spout nonsense and when challenged for support for your "statistics" supply unsupported opinion from wikipedia and "you can google it" ? and you have the gall to accuse me of not supplying backup?I read in this thread that this was done for you before. Its currently about 3000 Roman Catholic priests - it was higher of course, and continues to decline.
So you care to believe other peoples unsupported opinion but not the published stats which I showed you?
http://www.cso.ie/census/census_1951_results.htm
Look under volume 3 Part I Table 2
You will find it in occupation XX Starting at code number 321
Over 27,000 Christian clerics, religious and clerical students
From a population of 2.2 Million people over 14 years of age.
That is way more than one per cent of the non child population.
5,944 were Catholic Priests and another 4,082 were non lay and non brother theological students ( I assume these were student priests)
thats about 10,000 clerics.
Assuming none of the existing priests died and the students all became priests that would men that for just that decade alone to be only 0.1 per cent of population as you claim there would have to be ten million people in Ireland in 1951!
One per cent of the adult male population in 1951 would be about 10,000. Yes there were more brothers and nuns maybe bringing the number of religious up to 3% of all adults but in terms of seminarians and priests there were about 10,000.Now you say you provided statistics - all you do is link to the title of some book by some lad called Jenkins in America. That shows or proves nothing.
Indeed it shows you didn't care to actually read what I wrote.
I gave you the title and place of work of "some lad" who in fact was a winner of Mastermind . some lad indeed!
He is an academic in the field and I also pointed out if he is biased it can't be towards Catholics because he is an ex catholic!
Not alone that but I supplied the page reference to a book written by him where he states the rates of Protestant clerical abuse as higher!
As you are so fond of Wikipedia why didn't you bother to look him up
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Jenkins
Edwin Erle Sparks Professor of Humanities at Pennsylvania State University
Distinguished Professor (from 1997) of History and Religious studies at the same institution
assistant, associate and then full professor of Criminal Justice and American Studies at PSU, 1980–1993.
http://www.post-gazette.com/forum/comm/20020303edjenk03p6.aspHard though it may be to believe right now, the "pedophile priest" scandal is nothing like as sinister as it has been painted -- or at least, it should not be used to launch blanket accusations against the Catholic Church as a whole.
We have often heard the phrase "pedophile priest" in recent weeks. Such individuals can exist: Father Geoghan was one, as was the notorious Father James Porter a decade or so back. But as a description of a social problem, the term is wildly misleading. Crucially, Catholic priests and other clergy have nothing like a monopoly on sexual misconduct with minors.
My research of cases over the past 20 years indicates no evidence whatever that Catholic or other celibate clergy are any more likely to be involved in misconduct or abuse than clergy of any other denomination -- or indeed, than nonclergy. However determined news media may be to see this affair as a crisis of celibacy, the charge is just unsupported.Is Ireland even mentioned in that book ? If you link to something he says, or better still the source of his research ( if any ), then that would be something.
Go and look at his publication record at his penn state Webpage.
He has written about other social myths such as the threat ot Libya or Satanism or Serial killers
Here are some of his writings
http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/j/p/jpj1/articles.htm
He is only one example. I also posted shakeshaft!
I also produced stats about Kincora and other Protestant related cases but I dont want to get sidelined into t Proteatant vs Catholic clergy when in spite of Catholic rates being lower 95 per cent plus are non clergy!
By the way the point isn't that Ireland is a "special case" The general case is about Catholic Priests the "male only club" as you called them! If you are now changing this to only Catholic priests in Ireland then
1. you cant apply it to all the church
2. You cant bring in Boaton or the US ( from where 90 per cent of the pedophile cases the Vatican have on file eminate)
3. You cant assert a Vatican cover up if it is unique to Ireland!
For my part I have supplied an outline of pedophiles, clerical and non clerical Protestant and Catholic and in Ireland and elsewhere.
You have yet to show any of my figures are wrong.
I do however admit that I specifically referred to "golf club" in reply to your "male only club" comment.0 -
andyjo in case you missed it I keep adding to the statistics. You just seem to keep spouting the same unsupported opinion!
when you are ion a hole try reading the actual references supplied and don't think "dig up"
so as regards Jenkings if I messed the page reference ( and it is certainly earlier in the thread)
Philip Jenkins, Pedophiles and Priests (New York: Oxford University Press), pp. 50 and 81.
Try getting it in the library and checking the priomary source eh?
EDIT : adding this reference showing I gave the page reference before. It is in the following post http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74612015&postcount=2020
http://www.catholicleague.com/research/abuse_in_social_context.htmU.S. Department of Human Services
...
For the year 2001, it was found that approximately 903,000 children were victims of child maltreatment, 10 percent of whom (or 90,000) were sexually abused. It also found that 59 percent of the perpetrators of child abuse or neglect were women and 41 percent were men...
Family friends and acquaintances compose the largest group of perpetrators (28 percent), followed by such relatives as uncles and cousins (18 percent), stepfathers (12 percent), male siblings (10 percent), biological fathers (10 percent), boyfriends of the child’s mother (9 percent), grandfathers and stepgrandfathers (7 percent), and strangers (4 percent).” Horn was struck by the fact that 10 percent were biological fathers and only 4 percent were strangers.
...
“about 85 percent of the offenders [of child sexual abuse] are family members, babysitters, neighbors, family friends or relatives. About one in six child molesters are other children.”
...
PRIESTS
less than 1.5 percent of the estimated 60,000 or more men who have served in the Catholic clergy have been accused of child sexual abuse.[iv] According to a survey by the New York Times, 1.8 percent of all priests ordained from 1950 to 2001 have been accused of child sexual abuse.[v] Thomas Kane, author of Priests are People Too, estimates that between 1 and 1.5 percent of priests have had charges made against them.[vi] Of contemporary priests, the Associated Press found that approximately two-thirds of 1 percent of priests have charges pending against them.[vii]
Almost all the priests who abuse children are homosexuals. Dr. Thomas Plante, a psychologist at Santa Clara University, found that “80 to 90% of all priests who in fact abuse minors have sexually engaged with adolescent boys, not prepubescent children. Thus, the teenager is more at risk than the young altar boy or girls of any age.”[viii]
The situation in Boston, the epicenter of the scandal, is even worse. According to the Boston Globe, “Of the clergy sex abuse cases referred to prosecutors in Eastern Massachusetts, more than 90 percent involve male victims. And the most prominent Boston lawyers for alleged victims of clergy sexual abuse have said that about 95 percent of their clients are male.”[ix]
In a database analysis of reports on more than 1,200 alleged victims of priests identified by USA Today, 85 percent were males.[x] In another study by USA Today, it was determined that of the 234 priests who have been accused of sexual abuse of a minor while serving in the nation’s 10 largest dioceses and archdioceses, 91 percent of their victims were males.[xi]
Much has been made of a survey done by the Dallas Morning News which claims that two-thirds of the nation’s bishops have allowed priests accused of sexual abuse to continue working. But the problem with the survey is its definition of abuse—it includes everything from “ignoring warnings about suspicious behavior” to “criminal convictions.”[xii] Thus, the survey is of limited utility.
...MINISTERS
he data on the Protestant clergy tend to focus on sexual abuse in general, not on sexual abuse of children. Thus, strict comparisons cannot always be made. But there are some comparative data available on the subject of child sexual molestation, and what has been reported is quite revealing.
As I stated I don't want to go into a Protestant vs Catholic clergy debate when almost all abuse in non clergy. Go and read it yourself.0 -
ISAW- you are making the thread very difficult follow. Will you answer some questions without going into all this defensive/referencing mode ? , I find your replies, with the best will in the world, just impossible to read and follow.0
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More untruths. You say you did not bring up "golf clubs". If you go back over the past number of posts, you will see that actually you did ! See post no. 2160.
Which was a response to a post by YOU 2159 which brought up the "male only club"!
Which you put in bold
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74930607&postcount=2159
But I accept the contention about male only and female only "golf clubs" per se.
However the golf club was brought up iin response to YOUR mentioning the church as a unique example of a "male only club" You brought up the church as a "male only club" and I took up that point and asked you if your suggestion was correct why do you single out the church and how come your point applies to only the church and only to men in the church? why not to women or to any other organisation that ever existed that is men only the Free masons? Golf clubs? etc. You see one can not pick out a single example and apply it to a general case. One can take a general rule and cite a particular example. But it isn't a general rule because if it was it would apply to all male onbly clubs. What then is the significance of your categorisation of the church as a "male only club" - your words before I referred to golf clubs clearly the significance is not that it is male only or a club but just that you want to attack the Church.And as regards percentages, you will see references in the wiki report
Where in the Wikipedia report? Care to cite the actual reference?- whose link I gave you - that ( and I quote ) " series of criminal cases and Irish government enquiries established that hundreds of priests had abused thousands of children ".[/U]
What criminal cases and what government enquiries found that hundreds of priests in Ireland had abused children. If you take the broadest enquiry the child abuse commission which enquired into the worst abuse in Ireland specifically in the institutions run by Church orders. that enquire has been referenced several times by me. It encompassed 170,000 children who went to such institutions between `1920 and 1990.
And the report lists 26 abusing priests in total. Not "hundreds"! And this was in the worst cases of abuse spanning over 70 years!As regards the number of priests in Ireland, you can google that.
Rubbish! you don't even know what you are talking about! You stated i didnt supply any stats. I referred you to the 1951 census and other CSO and other figures. It shows over 20,000 religious in 1951 alone! What have you got other than "you can google it"
Apparently you demand statistics and accuse me of not supplying any and when shown the actual stats you ignore them and continue to spout nonsense and when challenged for support for your "statistics" supply unsupported opinion from wikipedia and "you can google it" ? and you have the gall to accuse me of not supplying backup?I read in this thread that this was done for you before. Its currently about 3000 Roman Catholic priests - it was higher of course, and continues to decline.
So you care to believe other peoples unsupported opinion but not the published stats which I showed you?
http://www.cso.ie/census/census_1951_results.htm
Look under volume 3 Part I Table 2
You will find it in occupation XX Starting at code number 321
Over 27,000 Christian clerics, religious and clerical students
From a population of 2.2 Million people over 14 years of age.
That is way more than one per cent of the non child population.
5,944 were Catholic Priests and another 4,082 were non lay and non brother theological students ( I assume these were student priests)
thats about 10,000 clerics.
Assuming none of the existing priests died and the students all became priests that would men that for just that decade alone to be only 0.1 per cent of population as you claim there would have to be ten million people in Ireland in 1951!
One per cent of the adult male population in 1951 would be about 10,000. Yes there were more brothers and nuns maybe bringing the number of religious up to 3% of all adults but in terms of seminarians and priests there were about 10,000.Now you say you provided statistics - all you do is link to the title of some book by some lad called Jenkins in America. That shows or proves nothing.
Indeed it shows you didn't care to actually read what I wrote.
I gave you the title and place of work of "some lad" who in fact was a winner of Mastermind . some lad indeed!
He is an academic in the field and I also pointed out if he is biased it can't be towards Catholics because he is an ex catholic!
Not alone that but I supplied the page reference to a book written by him where he states the rates of Protestant clerical abuse as higher!
As you are so fond of Wikipedia why didn't you bother to look him up
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Jenkins
Edwin Erle Sparks Professor of Humanities at Pennsylvania State University
Distinguished Professor (from 1997) of History and Religious studies at the same institution
assistant, associate and then full professor of Criminal Justice and American Studies at PSU, 1980–1993.
http://www.post-gazette.com/forum/comm/20020303edjenk03p6.aspHard though it may be to believe right now, the "pedophile priest" scandal is nothing like as sinister as it has been painted -- or at least, it should not be used to launch blanket accusations against the Catholic Church as a whole.
We have often heard the phrase "pedophile priest" in recent weeks. Such individuals can exist: Father Geoghan was one, as was the notorious Father James Porter a decade or so back. But as a description of a social problem, the term is wildly misleading. Crucially, Catholic priests and other clergy have nothing like a monopoly on sexual misconduct with minors.
My research of cases over the past 20 years indicates no evidence whatever that Catholic or other celibate clergy are any more likely to be involved in misconduct or abuse than clergy of any other denomination -- or indeed, than nonclergy. However determined news media may be to see this affair as a crisis of celibacy, the charge is just unsupported.Is Ireland even mentioned in that book ? If you link to something he says, or better still the source of his research ( if any ), then that would be something.
Go and look at his publication record at his penn state Webpage.
He has written about other social myths such as the threat ot Libya or Satanism or Serial killers
Here are some of his writings
http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/j/p/jpj1/articles.htm
He is only one example. I also posted shakeshaft!
I also produced stats about Kincora and other Protestant related cases but I dont want to get sidelined into t Proteatant vs Catholic clergy when in spite of Catholic rates being lower 95 per cent plus are non clergy!
By the way the point isn't that Ireland is a "special case" The general case is about Catholic Priests the "male only club" as you called them! If you are now changing this to only Catholic priests in Ireland then
1. you cant apply it to all the church
2. You cant bring in Boaton or the US ( from where 90 per cent of the pedophile cases the Vatican have on file eminate)
3. You cant assert a Vatican cover up if it is unique to Ireland!
For my part I have supplied an outline of pedophiles, clerical and non clerical Protestant and Catholic and in Ireland and elsewhere.
You have yet to show any of my figures are wrong.
I do however admit that I specifically referred to "golf club" in reply to your "male only club" comment.
This is hillarious, incredibly sad. Funny nonetheless.
The bald truth of the matter is that the RC church has a massive problem. No amount of he said she said/they're better or worse will solve it.
If the church wants to survive it needs a massive dose of humility, so far I've seen most of the deadly sins and no humility.
SD0 -
ISAW- you are making the thread very difficult follow. Will you answer some questions without going into all this defensive/referencing mode ? , I find your replies, with the best will in the world, just impossible to read and follow.
Marienbad what are your questions? apparently when I answer questions I am accused of not supplying references and when I supply detailed references showing I did supply references I am accused of defending myself. LOL
I tend not to make claims but to argue from the dialogue based on other peoples claims. So I only then have to post counter argument but the burden of evidence is not on me but on those claiming for example a "Vatican cover up" or "huge rate of pedophile priests" .
Here is an outstanding question for you:
Why place an inordinate amount of attention ( e.g. most of the media coverage) publicity and demands for action on less than one per cent of the offenders who are roman catholic Priests, giving the impression that the RCC are involved in orchestrating or protecting massive numbers of pedophiles ( 99 per plus cent of which are not priests)?0 -
StudentDad wrote: »This is hillarious, incredibly sad. Funny nonetheless.
Indeed what is hilarious is your continual quoting of whole messages while adding nothing but your unsupported opinion and your total failure to accept the errors when they are pointed out to you.
Where ANYWHERE did I claim anyone should tolerate children being sexually abused?
As you attributed to me here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74872765&postcount=2131The bald truth of the matter is that the RC church has a massive problem.
Yep that seems to be all you have bald assertion. Such defamation ruined Fr Reynolds parish life.No amount of he said she said/they're better or worse will solve it.
Indeed . which is why unlike you I do not rely on unsupported hearsay one uninformed opinion!
I relay on facts which are objective and valid and reliable and collected using standard protocols.If the church wants to survive it needs a massive dose of humility, so far I've seen most of the deadly sins and no humility.
SD
So SD wher is your leading by example? http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74872765&postcount=2131
Where ANYWHERE did I claim anyone should tolerate children being sexually abused?
Can you admit you were wrong? Can you take a dose yourself?0 -
StudentDad wrote: »This is hillarious, incredibly sad. Funny nonetheless.
Indeed what is hilarious is your continual quoting of whole messages while adding nothing but your unsupported opinion and your total failure to accept the errors when they are pointed out to you.
Where ANYWHERE did I claim anyone should tolerate children being sexually abused?
As you attributed to me here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74872765&postcount=2131The bald truth of the matter is that the RC church has a massive problem.
Yep that seems to be all you have bald assertion. Such defamation ruined Fr Reynolds parish life.No amount of he said she said/they're better or worse will solve it.
Indeed . which is why unlike you I do not rely on unsupported hearsay one uninformed opinion!
I relay on facts which are objective and valid and reliable and collected using standard protocols.If the church wants to survive it needs a massive dose of humility, so far I've seen most of the deadly sins and no humility.
SD
So SD wher is your leading by example? http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74872765&postcount=2131
Where ANYWHERE did I claim anyone should tolerate children being sexually abused?
Can you admit you were wrong? Can you take a dose yourself?
I don't know what you're on about. You are defensive in the extreme. Perhaps you don't like it when someone says it how he sees it.
As regards the church and whether or not I should be humble? Get off the stage. First off I'm not promoting myself as the moral or other guardian of anyone - the church claims that particular patch of dry land. Although it should think about relocating.
I have never had my own army or sent people into an area to kill anyone who didn't follow what I was prattling on about - the church did that.
The church expects people to 'believe' well sorry mate, it has to lead by example. Where are the public confessions? The church is meant to be founded on conscience. Where is the churches conscience?
SD0 -
Marienbad what are your questions? apparently when I answer questions I am accused of not supplying references and when I supply detailed references showing I did supply references I am accused of defending myself. LOL
I tend not to make claims but to argue from the dialogue based on other peoples claims. So I only then have to post counter argument but the burden of evidence is not on me but on those claiming for example a "Vatican cover up" or "huge rate of pedophile priests" .
Here is an outstanding question for you:
Why place an inordinate amount of attention ( e.g. most of the media coverage) publicity and demands for action on less than one per cent of the offenders who are roman catholic Priests, giving the impression that the RCC are involved in orchestrating or protecting massive numbers of pedophiles ( 99 per plus cent of which are not priests)?
Ok ISAW I will try to answer that as best I can. No stats-no cut and paste- just my honest opinion as best I can and in an effort at some disclosure ,as a former Irish Catholic that suffered a complete loss of faith in large measure due to severe physical abuse over a number of years and at a young age by a member of the clergy. For which many decades later I still feel a sense of emptiness and loss.
Forget the percentages , the numbers , all that stuff, the reason the attention is focused so relentlessly on the Catholic Church in Ireland ( and I can only speak to the situation in Ireland) is the overwhelming sense of betrayal the people feel . And why should this be so ? Well from the foundation of the state The Church saw itself at the heart of the State and insisted on being consulted on all sorts of stuff, education, health, family life, private life, books films even sport on occassion. We were a Catholic State for a Catholic people , a shining light to godless England and the world. To see the full scale of it just look at those pictures from the Marian year (1951 I think) or those of the Limerick Confraternity . Brimstone fire and sword - Church militant, Church Triumphant indeed.
This was deliberate policy by the Church. It is no argument saying the Church filled the gap left by the state in education and health- we both know that is only partly true. The fact is the Church was never going to cede primary influence in those areas. But then as Lord Acton tells us -power corrupts , and so it did.
The high water mark seemed to me to be the Popes's visit in to Galway in 1979. I am sure if you were a practicing catholic then everything seemed possible. But if you look at the great and the good on the podium that day and ask where are they now and you have a snap shot of all that was to follow- Bishop Casey, Fr Michael Cleary et al.
It is not just the sexual abuse ISAW - that was the nuclear bomb just waiting to explode- it was the sheer arrogance and double standards.
And when that bomb did explode the church was seen to lack compassion humility remorse and more interested in damage lmitation than the victims themselves.
But to address your specific point concerning the inordinate amount of attention put on the church. The percentages have nothing to do with it.
The Catholic Church held themselves to a higher standard in Ireland and it is against that standard that they must be measured.
In the same way that wide spread corruption in the UK police force received much more attention that say in an equivalent sized corporation.
You cant have it both ways ISAW - demand to be the moral arbiters of a society and then not be held accountable to those standards you set for everybody else.0 -
Why abandon a whole faith because of those who didn't practice what they preached?
No matter how bad the behaviour of those who should know better, I could never abandon the Church where Jesus is truly present, Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity.
Jesus told us to pray for those who persecute us, and Peter also said, to whom shall we go, you have the message of eternal life?
I prayed for my abusers (not clerics), and I forgive them, because Jesus forgives me my own transgression, and I am compelled to do the same if I am to follow in His footsteps.
Have you tried talking to a Priest? (not all are devils) I hope that someday you will find peace!
God Bless.0 -
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gimmebroadband wrote: »Why abandon a whole faith because of those who didn't practice what they preached?
No matter how bad the behaviour of those who should know better, I could never abandon the Church where Jesus is truly present, Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity.
Jesus told us to pray for those who persecute us, and Peter also said, to whom shall we go, you have the message of eternal life?
I prayed for my abusers (not clerics), and I forgive them, because Jesus forgives me my own transgression, and I am compelled to do the same if I am to follow in His footsteps.
Have you tried talking to a Priest? (not all are devils) I hope that someday you will find peace!
God Bless.
I only gave those personal details to add some background and context . I have spoken to priests and nuns many times since on that issue and on a whole range of issues and none of them were devils or anything like it. Life is not that simple. I have long ago found peace but I thank you for your wishes.0
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