The Clerical Child Abuse Thread (merged)

PatricaMcKay2

Interning childern in work camps in itself was abuse.

ISAW

gigino wrote: »

You are trying to claim that there was no deaths in Roman Catholic run institutions over 70 years ? lol.

I'm not aware of any. Particularly in the 170,000 children who went through the specific Catholic institutions into which the reports cover. If you are aware of any please show us.

And you were show figures earlier that actual deaths in state run institutions over 10 years was not 200, as the 200 figure included car accidents etc. Over 10 years, you unfortunately do get a lot of kids in Ireland killed in car accidents etc.

The person showing those figures was clearly wrong. He took a report from last year which claimed 30 deaths over ten years. It is an appalling figure anyway but it said that was
the absolute maximum and they would look into the details. now a year later they find it is over 200 deaths. These are deaths of children under their care. If a child escapes from a home and steals a car and kills themselves or if another child commits suicide they are still children in State care. If it happened when they were in Church care you would be ranting about it but you can't find any examples of that can you?

By you trying to claim that there was no deaths in Roman Catholic run institutions over 70 years loses you all credibility.

I refer specifically to the 170,000 children who went through Roman Catholic institutions. a comprehensive report was produced and I am not aware of any deaths reported in it. Have you any evidence of any children dying in these institutions from abuse?

Anyway , this thread is about clerical child abuse, so you should not be trying to derail it against the government and the UN, just because they found in their reports that child abuse in the RC church was " endemic".

But you trolled the "endemic" issue before without any supporting evidence and you were shown how poor your argument was. And your tactic at the time was to ignore producing evidence and to hop off into another issue e.g. magdalen laundaries which you have just done again by referring to the UN! So no surprises there. Whee did the UN find child abuse was endemic in Ireland by the way? Readers note: Watch how gigino avoids actually getting the data to backup his lazy claims.

You were shown the meaning of the word "endemic". Look it up again in the dictionary if you want.

Actually no you were shown it! ***begin point*****

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72528415&postcount=346

Do you understand the difference between committing 5.8% of the abuse, and being responsible for 5.8% of the victims? Religious/clerics were found responsible for 3.2% of the abuse. Babysitters were found responsible for 4.4% of childhood sexual abuse... endemic in babysitting circles.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72535981&postcount=354

But based on the surveys and studies conducted by different denominations over the past 30 years, experts who study child abuse say they see little reason to conclude that sexual abuse is mostly a Catholic issue. "We don't see the Catholic Church as a hotbed of this or a place that has a bigger problem than anyone else," said Ernie Allen, president of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. "I can tell you without hesitation that we have seen cases in many religious settings, from traveling evangelists to mainstream ministers to rabbis and others."Since the mid-1980s, insurance companies have offered sexual misconduct coverage as a rider on liability insurance, and their own studies indicate that Catholic churches are not higher risk than other congregations.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72536361&postcount=355

Suppose there is an army unit with 51 members. One of them happens to be a priest. for whatever reason he goes ape and kills 50 people in a village and the rest of the group all kill one per son each.

Here are the stats: 2 per cent of the population are priests but they committed 50 per cent of the murders.

While Catholic clergy are a tiny proportion ( one percent or less region ) of offenders it is true to say they had multiple victims. This can be explained. People in authority like priests in schools ( and this included non priests) had the environment to abuse multip[le victims. However most of the people in the environment were clergy. non clerical abusers didnt get the chance to abuse multiples. for example within a family it is unlikely an abuser will abuse every child they come across but they will abuse one or two for years.

There is a long list of other examples. I haven't even bothered to pick out where the dictionary definition was given to you.

***** end endemic point***********

The church, I am afraid, did do bad. Here in Ireland the RCC in its official website admits "Five per cent of all Irish children who are sexually abused are harmed by clerics".

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72527674&postcount=344

http://www.drcc.ie/about/savi.pdf

So who abused the 94.2% of boys not sexually abused by clergy or religious and the 98.6% of girls not sexually abused by clergy or religious?

Are they including brothers in this?

Yes and nuns. You were shown thattoo!

Either way, its a lot of damage, considering there are only a handful of thousand clerics in the country.

Tens of thousands of clerics and other religious. Even one abuser is unacceptable. so ? What is your point?

And in this country the clerics that have been exposed seem to be all R. Catholic clerics -

You have been clearly shown this inst true. The whole point is that the media over report Roman Catholic cases! Why do you suppose that is? Is it maybe because people like you promulgate the "pedophile priests are endemic" media myth?

I cannot recall any other demonination in the state which has had any accusations or convictions. No doubt if there are any you will know.

There are five or six messages above where you were shown such cases and these are only a small sample> funny how you can't recall when only two messages ago I asked you had you forgotten what you actually posted and what was shown to you last time you made your unsupported claims and ignorant assertions!



Here is just one example where you were pulled up on you assertions about "endemic" child abuse and then jumped off into an unrelated issue of Casey and Cleary having children but in the same thread you were given comparisons with non Catholic abuse stats:
*************Begin part of a post in a discussion you dont seem to recall**********
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72582313&postcount=382

Do you nat recall the following? Which is reminding you about an earlier discussion. yu seem to have a habit of not recalling.

This is from a post I made in an earlier discussion of child abuse on boards
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showp...&postcount=862
:

http://rumkatkilise.org/rayabyzantium.htm#cooliris
Byzantine culture and Orthodoxy are one and the same. All these peoples
became in fact Orthodox.

Now what had they to say?:

Child sexual abuse: historical cases in the Byzantine Empire (324-1453 A.D.)
John Lascaratos and Effie Poulakou-Rebelakou
a Department of the History of Medicine, Medical School, National Athens
University and International Hippocratic Foundation of Kos., Athens, Greece
b International Hippocratic Foundation of Kos., Athens, Greece
Received 13 October 1999; revised 13 October 1999; accepted 4 December 1999.
Available online 7 July 2000.

Conclusion: The research of original Byzantine literature disclosed many
instances of child sexual abuse in all social classes even in the mediaeval
Byzantine society which was characterized by strict legal and religious
prohibitions.


Reid, Charles J., "The Rights of Children in Medieval Canon Law" (2007). U
of St. Thomas Legal Studies Research Paper No. 07-34

Kuefler, Mathew
Love, Marriage, and Family in the Middle Ages: A Reader, and: Love, Sex and
Marriage in the Middle Ages: A Sourcebook (review)
The Catholic Historical Review - Volume 90, Number 4, October 2004, pp.
743-746

The Canon Law On the Formation of Marriage and Social Practice in the Later
Middle...
Donahue Journal of Family History.1983; 8: 144-158


In fact when the Greek and Western Roman empire was acceptable of such things there are church rules going back to the third or fourth century against sex with children.

To my knowledge of several places worldwide clergy (well stats in the Roman
Catholic Church anyway which is being discussed above. Protestant and Jewish
clergy may have different stats but little on child abuse is conclusive but
in any case abiove is Roman catholic so let us stay with that shall we?)
constitute one or two per cent of abusers. the above if true however shows
that clergy are either owning up or being singled out since of 1000 abusers
TEN are clergy but 990 are non clergy. If there is a four to one ratio of
conviction that means say you convict EIGHT of the ten clergy then you also
convict TWO of the 990 non clergy!

According to a survey by the Washington Post, over the last four decades,
less than 1.5 percent of the estimated 60,000 or more men who have served in
the Catholic clergy have been accused of child sexual abuse.
Alan Cooperman, "Hundreds of Priests Removed Since '60s; Survey Shows Scope
Wider Than Disclosed," Washington Post, June 9, 2002, p. A1.

According to a survey by the New York Times, 1.8 percent of all priests
ordained from 1950 to 2001 have been accused of child sexual abuse.
Laurie Goodstein, "Decades of Damage; Trail of Pain in Church Crisis Leads
to Nearly Every Diocese," New York Times, January 12, 2003, Section 1, p. 1.

Thomas Kane, author of Priests are People Too, estimates that between 1 and
1.5 percent of priests have had charges made against them.
Interviewed by Bill O'Reilly, Transcript of "The O'Reilly Factor," May 3,
2002.

Of contemporary priests, the Associated Press found that approximately
two-thirds of 1 percent of priests have charges pending against them.
Bob von Sternberg, "Insurance Falls Short in Church Abuse Cases; Catholic
Dioceses are Forced to Find other Sources to Pay Settlements," Star Tribune,
July 27, 2002, p. 1A.

Almost all the priests who abuse children are homosexuals. Dr. Thomas
Plante, a psychologist at Santa Clara University, found that "80 to 90% of
all priests who in fact abuse minors have sexually engaged with adolescent
boys, not prepubescent children. Thus, the teenager is more at risk than
the young altar boy or girls of any age.
Thomas Plante, "A Perspective on Clergy Sexual Abuse,"
www.psywww.com/psyrelig/plante.html.


In fact the stats are HIGHER for Jews and Protestants but that again is a
DIFFERENT topic!

The data on the Protestant clergy tend to focus on sexual abuse in general,
not on sexual abuse of children. Thus, strict comparisons cannot always be
made. But there are some comparative data available on the subject of child
sexual molestation, and what has been reported is quite revealing.

In the spring of 2002, when the sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic Church
was receiving unprecedented attention, the Christian Science Monitor
reported on the results of national surveys by Christian Ministry Resources.
The conclusion: "Despite headlines focusing on the priest pedophile problem
in the Roman Catholic Church, most American churches being hit with child
sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant, and most of the alleged abusers are
not clergy or staff, but church volunteers."
Mark Clayton, "Sex Abuse Spans Spectrum of Churches," Christian Science
Monitor, April 5, 2002, p. 1

In the authoritative work by Penn State professor Philip Jenkins, Pedophiles
and Priests, it was determined that between .2 and 1.7 percent of priests
are pedophiles. The figure among the Protestant clergy ranges between 2 and
3 percent.
Philip Jenkins, Pedophiles and Priests (New York: Oxford University Press),
pp. 50 and 81.

Rabbi Arthur Gross Schaefer is a professor of law and ethics at Loyola
Marymount University. It is his belief that sexual abuse among rabbis
approximates that found among the Protestant clergy. According to one
study, 73 percent of women rabbis report instances of sexual harassment.
"Sadly," Rabbi Schaefer concludes, "our community's reactions up to this
point have been often based on keeping things quiet in an attempt to do
'damage control.' Fear of lawsuits and bad publicity have dictated an
atmosphere of hushed voices and outrage against those who dare to break
ranks by speaking out."
Rabbi Arthur Gross Schaefer, "Rabbi Sexual Misconduct: Crying Out for a
Communal Response," www.rrc.edu/journal, November 24, 2003.

*************END the bit you dont recall******************

The state , when dealing with hundreds of thousands of people, is not infallible anywhere in the world. However, most states are not run by men old clubs of celibates, and for whatever reason - maybe its the influence of women - child abusers are / were not given shelter , victims told not to complain beyond the confessional etc

Again you go off on a tangent and attempt to relate abuse to celibacy or confessional secrets .
In the above discussion and elsewhere you were asked for evidence and shown counter evidence on both the celibacy and confession issues and what did you do?
You ignored it and moved on to another unrelated issue!

Again we have dealt with the issues you raise and you consistently fail to take up a response when you are shown it.

gigino

Quote" Its clear that even the RCC admits clerical child abuse is a problem when it admits in its own Irish website that ""Five per cent of all Irish children who are sexually abused are harmed by clerics" There are millions of adults in this state : there are something in the order of 3000 to 4000 Clerics in the state."

ISAW wrote: »

Tens of thousands of clerics and other religious.

No there are not. In 2008 for example the figures were as follows :

160 Irish priests died last year but only nine priests were ordained
· 228 Irish nuns died but only two Irish women joined holy orders
· According to the Irish Catholic newspaper there are 4,752 priests serving in Ireland, with the number expected to fall to 1,500 by 2028

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/11/catholicism.ireland

ISAW wrote: »

Again we have dealt with the issues you raise

Who is "we" ? Your colleagues in the Catholic Press Office ? No you have not dealt with it. Your other friends in the website of the Child Safeguarding and Protection Service of the ( Roman Catholic ) Archdiocese of Dublin. http://www.cps.dublindiocese.ie/article_287.shtml , admit / say in black and white "Five per cent of all Irish children who are sexually abused are harmed by clerics". As in this country the clerics that have been exposed seem to be all R. Catholic clerics - I cannot recall any other demonination in the state which has had any accusations or convictions - then why do you not admit there is a problem with clerical child abuse ? Not reporting it - as you have done in your own case - does not solve the problem, and pretending there is not a problem is not helpful either. I have a lot more respect for the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin who now admit there is a problem, than for you. Some people would be of the opinion that clerical child sex abuse in the RCC is higher than the 5% of victims figure the hierarchy admit to, because of personal experiences, the church track record on not reporting etc. However, if we accept the 5% figure from the official church website, it means that Clerics make up 00.1% of the population, yet they account for 5% of child sexual abuse.

gigino

ISAW wrote: »

Almost all the priests who abuse children are homosexuals. Dr. Thomas
Plante, a psychologist at Santa Clara University, found that "80 to 90% of
all priests who in fact abuse minors have sexually engaged with adolescent
boys, not prepubescent children. Thus, the teenager is more at risk than
the young altar boy or girls of any age.
Thomas Plante, "A Perspective on Clergy Sexual Abuse,"
www.psywww.com/psyrelig/plante.html.

Interesting you should mention that. "Almost all the priests who abuse children are homosexuals." Would that be part of the reason why the RCC church has had soo many scandals and coverups, and the Irish government for example found clerical shild abuse in the RC church "endemic" ? Homosexuals are more likely to be drawn in to the all male environment and "culture" of seminaries etc. Happily married clergy, as you find much more often than not in other denominations, are - its fair to assume - usually not homosexuals and therefore do not offend at the same rate as some of the RC clergy. Nobody is saying all RC clergy are homosexuals or child abusers. However, its interesting you quote that in the Celibate, all male RC church " Almost all the priests who abuse children are homosexuals ". Would you think the incidence of homosexuality in the RC clergy is much higher than in the outside male population, most of whom do not deny themselves normal sexual and emotional relations with women?

gigino

ISAW wrote: »

I'm not aware of any. Particularly in the 170,000 children who went through the specific Catholic institutions into which the reports cover. If you are aware of any please show us.

Too many to mention. In the RTE TV documentary on Magdalene laundries it showed the graves of children who died but who were hushed up. Look online and you will come up with lots of kids who died in care. eg. http://banishedbabies-ireland.blogspot.com/2011/06/misterious-death-of-marion-howe-in-nuns.html

StudentDad

Given the revelations about the RC church abducting babies in Spain for money it is difficult to accept anything the church says as valid.

SD

gigino

StudentDad wrote: »

Given the revelations about the RC church abducting babies in Spain for money it is difficult to accept anything the church says as valid.

+1. The SAVI report percentage is 5.8% ; the website of the Child Safeguarding and Protection Service of the ( Roman Catholic ) Archdiocese of Dublin. http://www.cps.dublindiocese.ie/article_287.shtml say its 5%. Edited by mod to remove overly personal reference to another poster

If we accept the churches figures, we find that Clerics make up 00.1% of the population, yet they raped / abused 5% of all Irish child sexual abuse victims.

ISAW

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

Interning childern in work camps in itself was abuse.

Are you talking about the WWII Holocaust?
Because if you are talking about Ireland I'd like you to point out the "work camps" and who was interned in them.

ISAW

gigino wrote: »

No there are not. In 2008 for example the figures were as follows :

You are referring to RC instutions form 1920-1970 the period over which the report into institutions covers. Don't you remember? I took as a guide the 1951 census which is about in the middle of that period. 2008 is about 30 years later and you were told that current levels don't reflect historic ones before as well.

· According to the Irish Catholic newspaper there are 4,752 priests serving in Ireland, with the number expected to fall to 1,500 by 2028

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/11/catholicism.ireland

And based on 2008 figures what percent of priests in the 2000 to 2010 decase are responsible for the death or sexual abuse of children? One per cent is about 50 priests. I would thin the number involved in zero but say it is about one or two that is a that is about five hundredths of a percent! and meantime the HSE and State are involved in over 200 deaths!

Who is "we" ? Your colleagues in the Catholic Press Office ?

You have been at this before accusing me of being a priest and accusing me of professionally getting paid to work for the Catholic Church. As if that was something anyone should be ashamed of doing. Good luck to them that do it but where is you evidence I work for the Catholic Press office?

No you have not dealt with it. Your other friends in the website of the Child Safeguarding and Protection Service of the ( Roman Catholic ) Archdiocese of Dublin. http://www.cps.dublindiocese.ie/article_287.shtml , admit / say in black and white "Five per cent of all Irish children who are sexually abused are harmed by clerics".

AS you have done elsewhere you are cherry picking quotes out of context! What does hte following line to the quote you just gave say?

As in this country the clerics that have been exposed seem to be all R. Catholic clerics

You have just been shown wher you have been sahown before that it is not all Catholic Clerics. Kincora Boys Home etc.

- I cannot recall any other demonination in the state which has had any accusations or convictions - then why do you not admit there is a problem with clerical child abuse ?

You have just been shown them! I don't want to turn this into Protestant versus Catholic when the vast majority are non clerical.
http://www.paddydoyle.com/not-enough-being-done-for-protestant-survivors-of-abuse/
http://www.indymedia.ie/article/99220

Some residential institutions founded and run by members of the Church of Ireland such as Stewart's Hospital and Miss Carr's Children's Home, do to their connection with the Eastern Health Board, do come under the remit of the redress board scheme and victims are entitled to petition it for compensation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellen_Smyly
It closed in 1944 and children were moved to the Smyly home in Monkstown.There was eleven Mrs. Smyly's homes which the government is in dialogue with over some contribution to the redress fund.[79] Some Church of Ireland run institutions for older children like the Cottage Home and Birds Nest have been included in the list of institutions for the Redress Scheme
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission_to_Inquire_into_Child_Abuse

Not reporting it - as you have done in your own case - does not solve the problem,

Back to blaming the victims again!

and pretending there is not a problem is not helpful either.

So what about the other 99 per cent of non Catholic and non clerical abuse?

Some people would be of the opinion that clerical child sex abuse in the RCC is higher than the 5% of victims ... However, if we accept the 5% figure from the official church website, it means that Clerics make up 00.1% of the population, yet they account for 5% of child sexual abuse.

Selective quote. Clerics make of less than 1 per cent of abusers. Less than 0.1 % of clerics are abusers.

You ignored my comment. If a black man kills fifty people and fifty non blacks kill fifty more people then 1% of the killers are black and have killed 50% of the victims. Yes it is evidence that priests were likely to have more then the average number of victims. And I also explained why that was likely ( was but is not now because of Church child protection policies) but you ignored the entirely valid answer. Again!

gigino

I assume what was referred to were the infamous Magdalene laundries. http://www.magdalenelaundries.com/news.htm

Quote : "On Monday, 6 June 2011, the UN Committee Against Torture (UNCAT) issued its "Concluding Observations" following the first examination of the Irish State under the UN Convention Against Torture. The Committee reiterated its calls for an independent investigation into the Magdalene Laundries abuse and redress for the women who suffered. It also recommended that the State "prosecute and punish the perpetrators with penalties commensurate with the gravity of the offences ..."

This was pointed out to you before ISAW, along with lots of links, please pay more attention.
Did you not see the excellent documentary on RTE about them only a few months ago ? It interviewed survivors, and showed how people who escaped were returned to the nuns by the Gardai.

gigino

ISAW wrote: »

Less than 0.1 % of clerics are abusers.

Given that there are only 4 or 5 thousand clerics in the country at most, you think there are only 4 or 5 child abusers? And yet the official catholic website on such matters states in black and white that " "Five per cent of all Irish children who are sexually abused are harmed by clerics". Given the number of under age people in the country exceeds well over a million, these 4 or 5 clerics are very busy so, according to your logic :rolleyes:. What we already established is that If we accept the churches figures, we find that Clerics make up 00.1% of the population, yet they raped / abused 5% of all Irish child sexual abuse victims.

ISAW wrote: »

You have just been shown wher you have been sahown before that it is not all Catholic Clerics. Kincora Boys Home etc.

We were talking about this state, and examing the statistics for this state. Kincora Boys home is not in this state.

What about your statement / quote "Almost all the priests who abuse children are homosexuals." Would that be part of the reason why the RCC church has had soo many scandals and coverups, and the Irish government for example found clerical child abuse in the RC church "endemic" ? ( their word, not mine ). I showed you the dictionary definition of endemic, and explained it to you. eg Malaria is endemic in some tropical regions.

ISAW

gigino wrote: »

In this country has there ever been an example of clerical child abuse in other denominations ? Most clerics I cam across in other denominations seemed normal , happily married folk.

You are in denial and I don't mean the river!

ISAW

gigino wrote: »

I assume what was referred to were the infamous Magdalene laundries. http://www.magdalenelaundries.com/news.htm

... following the first examination of the Irish State under the UN Convention Against Torture. The Committee reiterated its calls for an independent investigation into the Magdalene Laundries abuse and redress for the women who suffered. It also recommended that the State "prosecute and punish the perpetrators with penalties commensurate with the gravity of the offences ..."[/I][/COLOR]

This was pointed out to you before ISAW, along with lots of links, please pay more attention.
Wher was it pointed out before?

Watch folks as gigino now becomes exposed because the last time this was pointed out he was given all the details and came back ignoring them and personally attacking people. It seems he has not changed. the last time he raied the "endemic" issue the same happened and the "magdalen" issue.

Did you not see the excellent documentary on RTE about them only a few months ago ?

What documentary about whom?
What do you claim this documentary proved?
Is it like the documentary that defamed Fr Reynolds?

It interviewed survivors, and showed how people who escaped were returned to the nuns by the Gardai.

Did you not read the newspaper article?
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/david-quinn-magdalene-inquiry-must-lift-veil-and-uncloak-anticatholic-myths-2677561.html
which says

according to the Government's own report to the UN committee, the overwhelming majority of women in the Magdalene Laundries were there voluntarily.

And to whom do you think the government was reporting? Oh yeah in May the UN Committee on Torture who this committee called on the Government to accede to a call.
by the Irish Human Rights Commission that the government report on the Magdalen's for some reason on on the Irish and Catholic ones.

ISAW

gigino wrote: »

We were talking about this state, and examing the statistics for this state. Kincora Boys home is not in this state.

Im not going to get into "Northern Ireland isn't Ireland" rubbish!

You wre given ample examples of Protestant run homes. You claimed not one existed in Ireland and all the instututions related to abuse were Catholic.

What about your statement / quote "Almost all the priests who abuse children are homosexuals."

It isn't my statement and I note you also picked this out and ignored the rest of the evidence which directly contradicts your assertion that you had never seen examples before of non catholic abuse! THat evidence was all sent when you were posting this thread!

But as regards homosesuals. I pointed out before that this isnt strictly "pedophile" ie pre pubescent and is usually against older teenagers.

I showed you the dictionary definition of endemic, and explained it to you. eg Malaria is endemic in some tropical regions.

No you didnt festus brought up the dictionary

And when you brought this up before her is what he said
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73077537&postcount=1261

For a start you should look up the meaning of "endemic". I would have thought that by now taking the word of any government source without reaching for the salt was a risky business. Given this is an Irish government document it would seem that they are as enthusiastic about their abuse of the English language as you are in your abuse of Catholics in general and the priesthood in particular. Oh, and your abuse of statistics. Are you a rag top journalist by any chance?

en·dem·ic

   [en-dem-ik] Show IPA
–adjective Also, en·dem·i·cal.1.natural to or characteristic of a specific people or place;native; indigenous: endemic folkways; countries where high unemployment is endemic.

2.belonging exclusively or confined to a particular place: a fever endemic to the tropics.


–noun3.an endemic disease.




That priests have a preference for black socks over really really really really really dark navy could be described as being endemic to priests.

That child abuse and pedophila happens outside of the clergy is enough to negate the governments statement you so love to refer to as the reality is that child abuse is not endemic anywhere. Except in Belgium where it seems it is endemic to the judiciary, the police force and men of wealth with access to large quantities of chocolates. In the UK it appears to be endemic to social workers.
Both of the latter statements constructed using the governments definition of "endemic".
...
There are sufficiently high levels of child abuse within families in Ireland to be able to say, using the government's understanding of the use of the word "endemic" and their general understanding of english, that child abuse is endemic in Irish families, if we are to believe all the reports and the media. So much so that there are Child Protection agencies in most counties.
It is also reasonable to say that ebephilia is particularly endemic in families while ephebophilia is more endemic in the teaching and coaching community, but again only while using an Irish government dictionary.

ISAW

gigino wrote: »

+1. The SAVI report percentage is 5.8% ;

No it isnt! you were shown!
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72690262&postcount=982

5.8 perent of WHAT? You are lying! of boys sexually abused by authority figures such as Gardai Swimming Instructors , teachers, coaches etc.


This group was 20 per cent of the 700 or so abused which was about 20 per cent of the 3,000 people in the survey. Abuse was very widely defined to include 17 year olds seeing people naked , no contact involved.

5.8 per cent of 20 per cent is about one per cent of people. As it happens one per cent or less of abusers are catholic Priests. the other 99 per cent are not!

ISAW

gigino wrote: »

Given that there are only 4 or 5 thousand clerics in the country at most, you think there are only 4 or 5 child abusers?

Who are currently practicing clerics. I would think even less than that.

And yet the official catholic website on such matters states in black and white that " "Five per cent of all Irish children who are sexually abused are harmed by clerics".

And I think I have pointed out to you that "five per cent were victims of clerical abuse " 9i.e. 95 % weren't) and "five per cent of clerics were abusers" are wholly different statements! You have a problem with logic or you are just ignoring the actual facts. Which is it?

Given the number of under age people in the country exceeds well over a million, these 4 or 5 clerics are very busy so, according to your logic

Oh dear oh dear.
Now you are saying five percent of all children are victims of clerical abuse and not "five percent of victims of sexual abuse" !

What we already established is that If we accept the churches figures, we find that Clerics make up 00.1% of the population, yet they raped / abused 5% of all Irish child sexual abuse victims.

Which isn't 5% of over a million children! It is 5% of all victims. And it isnt all "rape" . It includes even non contact sexual harassment.

We were talking about this state, and examing the statistics for this state. Kincora Boys home is not in this state.

It isn't in this juristiction. I wont go into Articles 2 and 3 of the Irish Constitution. Suffice it to say you ignored the several other examples of non catholic homes under the remit of the residential redress board remit. You claimed no abuse in non Catholic homes existed. But I listed out some of the ones in the Report!

gigino

ISAW wrote: »

You wre given ample examples of Protestant run homes. You claimed not one existed in Ireland and all the instututions related to abuse were Catholic.

I actually wrote " in this country the clerics that have been exposed seem to be all R. Catholic clerics - I cannot recall any other demonination in the state which has had any accusations or convictions. No doubt if there are any you will know. ".

You have give an example of Protestant run homes a long long time ago, but have you found any Protestant clerics who were accused or convicted ? Thats what this thread is about - Clerical child abuse.

ISAW wrote: »

But as regards homosesuals. I pointed out before that this isnt strictly "pedophile" ie pre pubescent and is usually against older teenagers.

Its written ( and supported by you ) in your post no. 2313 that "Almost all the priests who abuse children are homosexuals."." Given that homosexuals are more likely to be drawn in to the all male environment and "culture" of seminaries etc, would that be part of the reason why the RCC church has had soo many scandals and coverups, and the Irish government for example found clerical child abuse in the RC church "endemic" ?

ISAW wrote: »

No you didnt festus brought up the dictionary

I actually looked up two different on line dictionaries and explained the word endemic to you, as you tried to explain that child abuse was endemic in society in general. You can go back some months and check that. It does not matter anyway ; according to the government clerical child abuse in the RCC is endemic. According to the official catholic website on such matters, it admits in black and white that " "Five per cent of all Irish children who are sexually abused are harmed by clerics". Given that priests only make up 00.1 % of the population, that does indeed suggest it is endemic, by its own admission. Check the dictionary definition of endemic again which I gave you.;)

gigino

ISAW wrote: »

No it isnt! you were shown!
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72690262&postcount=982

You are just making up figures. I am quoting from the SAVI report itself.
This was explained to you already.

In the SAVI report as pointed out to you before ,the percentage of abused boys who say the abuser was a member of the clergy ( ie religous minister ) or religous teacher , was 5.8%.

This combined group of clergy + religous teachers is the single biggest group of abusers among authority figures, responsible for 27.3% of boys abused by authority figures.
That is a fact. See the SAVI report. I even produced the table report from it in post 1216. Go and look at the SAVI report, or from the table which I reproduced from it in post no. 1216. Do pay attention.

To make it easy for you I have a link to the table below:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055855692&page=82

gigino

ISAW wrote: »

Now you are saying five percent of all children are victims of clerical abuse

I never said that, so I would ask you to withdraw that allegation. You claimed in an earlier post that child abuse was endemic in Irish society. You also claim that there are only a handful, 4 or 5 clerical child abusers, so by your these 4 or 5 clerics have been quite busy given that child abuse is endemic and the R.C official Irish website on such matters admits that " Five per cent of all Irish children who are sexually abused are harmed by clerics". You cannot have it both ways. Which is it ?

Spacedog

gigino wrote: »

I never said that, so I would ask you to withdraw that allegation. You claimed in an earlier post that child abuse was endemic in Irish society. You also claim that there are only a handful, 4 or 5 clerical child abusers, so by your these 4 or 5 clerics have been quite busy given that child abuse is endemic and the R.C official Irish website on such matters admits that " Five per cent of all Irish children who are sexually abused are harmed by clerics". You cannot have it both ways. Which is it ?

Shut up, Leave him alone, Stop attacking our faith, Don't answer it iSaw. Don"t listen to him, It's another anti Christian trap.

Fanny Cradock

gigino wrote: »

You are just making up figures. I am quoting from the SAVI report itself.
This was explained to you already.

In the SAVI report as pointed out to you before ,the percentage of abused boys who say the abuser was a member of the clergy ( ie religous minister ) or religous teacher , was 5.8%.

This combined group of clergy + religous teachers is the single biggest group of abusers among authority figures, responsible for 27.3% of boys abused by authority figures.
That is a fact. See the SAVI report. I even produced the table report from it in post 1216. Go and look at the SAVI report, or from the table which I reproduced from it in post no. 1216. Do pay attention.

To make it easy for you I have a link to the table below:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055855692&page=82

Are you still misusing statistics? Inedible!

That the RCC covered up sexual abuse should be enough.

Fanny Cradock

Spacedog wrote: »

Shut up, Leave him alone, Stop attacking our faith, Don't answer it iSaw. Don"t listen to him, It's another anti Christian trap.

Why don't you stop trolling.

Spacedog

I'm simply advocating responsibility for clerical child abuse. I thought you of all people would appreciate it.

gimmebroadband

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Are you still misusing statistics? Inedible!

That the RCC covered up sexual abuse should be enough.

That's a lie!

Individuals within the Church covered it up, they didn't act on behalf of the Church, they may have done so to cover up their own negligences!!! It's not fair to implicate the whole Church, that is downright deceitful!!

cybercellesta

I agree with Gimmie, it's wrong to tar the whole church because of individuals who didn't toe the line! It's a pity that hatred for the CC clouds people judgement, shame on you!!!

Fanny Cradock

Spacedog wrote: »

I'm simply advocating responsibility for clerical child abuse. I thought you of all people would appreciate it.

You've never attempted to do anything other than troll this forum. I see no evidence that you have changed your colours.

Fanny Cradock

cybercellesta wrote: »

I agree with Gimmie, it's wrong to tar the whole church because of individuals who didn't toe the line! It's a pity that hatred for the CC clouds people judgement, shame on you!!!

Oh, please! I don't hate the RCC. Nor do I seek to absolve them of blame at all costs.

cybercellesta

With the same Judgement you judge, so will you be judged!!

lmaopml

People covered up abuse. People still do - that's a problem. If the Catholic Church highlights the issue as the 'villain' maybe it may help to introduce laws or serve as an example in the long run - to pave a better way..

I would expect no different. Catholics are just people too.

Spacedog

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

You've never attempted to do anything other than troll this forum. I see no evidence that you have changed your colours.

If you don't like it, take it to dispute resolution.

Far be it for you to derail an ongoing discussion in the clerical abuse thread eh?

iSaw doing a real good job of avoiding that question. Fair play lad