The Clerical Child Abuse Thread (merged)

The Quadratic Equation

yutta wrote: »

He just won't let it go and will suffer even more as a result.

Perhaps he will, but until it becomes history, and any of negligent and incompetent hierarchy responsible have all been removed, and procedures have been put in place to ensure that these people can never infiltrate and misuse our Church again, you can hardly blame him for not achieving closure. For example, I feel the same way about Fianna Fáil. Their corruption ruined the lives of several people in my family, and justice delayed is justice denied.

Before you judge a man try walking in his shoes. Only time and the kindness of others will help heal him.

Keylem

The Quadratic Equation wrote: »

Perhaps he will, but until it becomes history, and any of negligent and incompetent hierarchy responsible have all been removed, and procedures have been put in place to ensure that these people can never infiltrate and misuse our Church again, you can hardly blame him for not achieving closure. For example, I feel the same way about Fianna Fáil. Their corruption ruined the lives of several people in my family, and justice delayed is justice denied.

Before you judge a man try walking in his shoes. Only time and the kindness of others will help heal him.

Same in my own family, FF ruined the lives of countless families, and the current goverment is no great shakes either! Sorry for being OT, as you were!

Andrew49

yutta wrote: »

So how big was your compo cheque Andrew? How much more money are you looking for?

Why don't you go back to beating your drum over on politics.ie Mr 5,000 anti-Catholic posts?

You need to cop yourself on and move on. You'll be waiting a long time sitting around/moaning while waiting for the State or the Church to solve all your problems.

My compensation came in the form of seeing two of my abusers gaoled - but thank you very much for clearing up the conundrum I had, as to whether the rape, starvation and torture of children was a peculiarly 'Catholic' thing.

You're reply to me though is a minor 'classic' in the art of Catholic abuse apologist deflection. I'm using the word 'minor' advisedly here.

Andrew49

yutta wrote: »

I agree. But giving abuse victims Bentleys and gaffs in Dublin 4 isn't going to undo the damage either.

You leave my Bentleys and gaff in Dublin 4 out of this; if I let you get away with trying to bring them into this argument there's a good chance you'll bring in my Humvee and condo in Kissimmee in Florida. Keep on topic. If you keep trying to go off-topic I'll have to respond by bringing in that habit, seemingly peculiar to the Italian Mission to Ireland, of parading bits of dead people around the country.

Morbert

It's a cheap shot, but I can't resist.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2054674/Roman-Catholic-churchs-paedophile-investigator-jailed-possessing-thousnds-child-porn-images.html

marienbad

Morbert wrote: »

It's a cheap shot, but I can't resist.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2054674/Roman-Catholic-churchs-paedophile-investigator-jailed-possessing-thousnds-child-porn-images.html

You just could'nt make this stuff up ! Forget all the conspiracy theory bull**** about all those out to get the chuch. Who needs conspiracy when you have friends like these.

Will it never end ? And please don't say it is only the Daily Mail.

gigino

Morbert wrote: »

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2054674/Roman-Catholic-churchs-paedophile-investigator-jailed-possessing-thousnds-child-porn-images.html

"Roman Catholic church's paedophile investigator jailed for possessing thousands of child porn images" No mention of that on RTE

The Quadratic Equation

gigino wrote: »

"Roman Catholic church's paedophile investigator jailed for possessing thousands of child porn images" No mention of that on RTE

No metion indeed. They don't like stories where genuine criminals are proven guilty beyond all resonable doubt in a court of law. They much prefer to pronounce in their programmes the innocent are guilty untill they are prepared to take RTÉ to court.

gigino

Instead of broadcasting free adds like the angelus twice a day, you would think the odd time - to maintain balance - they would report on the storys about e.g. "Roman Catholic church's paedophile investigator jailed for possessing thousands of child porn images"

ISAW

Andrew49 wrote: »

But you should revel in a description that's puts you on a par with Cardinal Desmond Connell - after all Connell and the Church claimed complete ignorance of the widespread abuse of children by clergy in the Dublin Diocese

How many clergy? What percentage of actual priests? And how many non proiests were at that time abusing?

the archdiocese itself had at least 5,000 documents in a secret archive on abusing clergy in Dublin at the same time as they were denial!!

Again on how many priests? three ? Five ? ten?

There you go being the typical Catholic Church abuse apologist - finger-pointing. Does 200 children dead children over 10 years compare to locking 35 children in a dormitory and watching them burn to death?
Well does it?

To what case do you refer?
To a sub judice case in Holland which has not yet been decided?

Does it compare to packing 240 children into a space fit only to hold 50 children and then turn a blind eye as the children's health suffers and one of them dies?
Does it compare to 7 children dying over 11 days in one institution - all 7 children's deaths STILL unaccounted for?

To what cases do you refer and what other cases happened at the same time?

Does it compare to 2,400 children dying in just ONE institution over 40 years (between 1930 up to 1970) - that's an attrition rate for ONE institution of 60 children dying every year!

In what institution do you suggest that 2,400 children DIED at the hands of the Church in Ireland?

The rules of the Catholic Church have no more relevance in Irish law than the rule of the local golf club.

Please re read the thread we have been over this golf club/canon law before.
The rules of the church are that when the law of the State says so they report any crime.

It's attitude. It thinks Clyone, Murphy, Ryan, McCoy, Ferns can be put aside.

I never suggested they could or should. where did I?

The Christian Brothers claimed only 77 children died in one of its Institutions - the truth we now know is that 100 children died in that Institution... one of these children was only 4 years old and his lifeless body was just thrown in a copse by the Brothers. The Brothers didn't even bother to give the children their names ... they called them: son of a tinker, son of a butcher ....

What Irish institution do you suggest whether inthe aboive reportsor not KILLED over 100 children?

The Magdalene Laundries (and the Industrial Schools) were private institutions, wholly owned and wholly managed by Roman Catholic Religious (sic) Orders.

Wrong! And already dealt eith in this thread and others specifically on Magdalen institutions/asylums whichj were started by Protestants.

you're a typical abuse apologist - finger-pointing and attempting to deflect from the culpability of the Church in criminal and despicable activities. But it's not working.

I take exception to that. I am a victim of abuse myself.

The whole demeanour of your posts is one of denial, denial, denial. It's as if no Religious Order has admitted abuses, as if no Religious Order has apologised, as if no member of a Religious Orders has been jailed, as if no bishop has apologised, as if no cardinal has apologised, as if no pope has apologised

Not at all! there are billions of Catholics and there have been hundreds of thousands of bishops and millions of priests. Some have made mistakes but saying the whole church or the clergy is riddled with corruption coverup and pedophilia is clearly rather silly.

Between the 1930’s and the 1960’s an estimated 60,000 newborns were procured under false pretences for married couples that had been turned down as prospective adoptive parents on various grounds.

The perpetrators of baby trafficking broke the law, forged documents, destroyed evidence, took babies from young mothers on the pretext of arranging legal adoptions.

Nothing to do with clerics sexually abusing kids - off topic.

PatricaMcKay2 wrote: »

Uh I check out politics.ie from time to time and so know from that he was interned in an "industrial school"- even without the rape and sexual abuse these "industrial schools" were utterly shamefull.

Yes but the topic is clerical sexual abuse.

The sermon sickened me to my stomach and Ive never been able to set foot in an RC church since.

A rather Protestant attitude wouldn't you think? -judging a religion by the sermons and not the sacraments.

Guitar_Monkey

Welcome back ISAW !

CiaranMT

ISAW

CiaranMT wrote: »

You point with the Futurama reference is?

As regards your sig:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Kung

Hans Kung colleague Joseph Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI), in 1962 was appointed peritus by Pope John XXIII, serving as an expert theological advisor to members of the Second Vatican Council until its conclusion in 1965. At Küng's instigation, the Catholic faculty at Tübingen appointed Ratzinger as professor of dogmatics. However, due to the 1968 students revolt, Ratzinger moved to the University of Regensburg, ending cooperation between the two.

Küng argued that Barth, like Martin Luther, overreacted against the Catholic Church, which despite its imperfections has been and remains the body of Chris
he became the first major Roman Catholic theologian since the late 19th century Old Catholic Church schism to publicly reject the doctrine of papal infallibility,
on December 18, 1979, he was stripped of his missio canonica, his licence to teach as a Roman Catholic theologian, but carried on teaching as a tenured professor of ecumenical theology at the University of Tübingen until his retirement (Emeritierung) in 1996. To this day he remains a persistent critic of papal infallibility, which he claims is man-made (and thus reversible) rather than instituted by God.

on December 18, 1979, he was stripped of his missio canonica, his licence to teach as a Roman Catholic theologian, but carried on teaching as a tenured professor of ecumenical theology at the University of Tübingen until his retirement (Emeritierung) in 1996. To this day he remains a persistent critic of papal infallibility, which he claims is man-made (and thus reversible) rather than instituted by God.

So given this context the following quote is from Benedict (then Ratzinger) is from his homily explaining why Hans Küng had to be sent to a form of ecclesial imprisonment and denied the capacity to teach. The Christian believer is a simple person: bishops should protect the faith of these little people against the power of intellectuals.

Just so you get the context correct in case you didn't know.

ISAW

http://www.safeguarding.ie/reviews-nov-2011/

From which we get

Number of priests incardinated into the Diocese against whom allegations have been made since the 1st January 1975 up to August 2011
Ardagh clonmacnoise 13
Derry 23
Kilmore 7
Raphoe 14
Tuam 18

Number of priests of the diocese who have been convicted of having committed an offence or offences against a child or young person since the 1st January 1975
Ardagh clonmacnoise 1
Derry 0
Kilmore 1
Raphoe 4
Tuam 2

That's 5/6 diocese over more than 35 years 75 allegations, 7 convictions edit:8 convictions

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/census/census1971results/volume4/C%201971%20VOL%204%20T2.pdf
1971 census under heading 319 (clergymen) 6,415

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/census/census1981results/volume7/C%201981%20V7%20T2.pdf
1981 census same under heading 382 ( clergymen) 5,939

there are 26 diocese in Ireland
http://www.vocations.ie/Diocesan_Priesthood/Map_of_irish_Diocese
Just a rough rule of thumb would indicate the above reports relate to about a quarter.
Ther are already reports on others, but extrapolating we would get a figure in the orderof 20 to 30 convictions in a population population of about 6,000 priests.

I am leaving out the maybe 1000s of seminarians and the over 8000 nuns and the 1,500 opther religious e.g. brothers. Im also assuming these were the same people for 35 years ( by all accounts another different 6000 should havereplaced them makinf the total population near 12,000) but in any case
We have about 1,500 priests ( a quarter of 6,000)
We have about 8 convictions ( or you can say 20 to 30 convictions in 6000 ~25 in 6000 ~0.425%)
That is less than 0.5 %

My gut feeling is that it should be closer to 0.1% but as I stated I am making rules of thumb.

Now let us compare that to rape and the like in Ireland

http://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/crimeandjustice
Convictions Dangerous or negligent acts in ireland 2004 - 2010 rangefrom 12,00 to 21000 per year
Assaults - about 13,000 per year
http://www.cso.ie/px/pxeirestat/Statire/SelectVarVal/saveselections.asp

2004 quarter 1 ( thats only a quarter of the year)
Rape and sexual offences =605

Those are conviction from Jan to Mar in 2004!

In the thousands per year - just rape alone! not all the other crimes.

Meanwhile for priests over 35 years you have less than one priest per year!
7 ( not necessarily all for rape either) over 35 years in 6 diocese!
compared to tens of thousands over 35 years!

Now one is one priest to many but get it into perspective.

PS I note the media are only referring to Raphoe. Is this because Raphoe had 4 convictions ( one of which was notorious and has been referred to the worst ever rivalling Smyth, which the tabloids would love to parade) but they don't seem to mention the other 6 diocese which all totalled together do not achieve a higher number of convictions than Raphoe on it s own - which makes me wonder iof one can extrapolateand assume the same rate elsewhere. It may in fact be lower.

gigino

ISAW wrote: »

....which all totalled together do not achieve a higher number of convictions ......

but do not forget not all priests were convicted, far from it. From todays report http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1130/dioceses.html
"Key points:
Raphoe
. 52 allegations reported to gardaí against 14 priests
. Eight out of 14 priests out of ministry, six retired
. Four convicted of an offence against a child
. Significant errors of judgement made by successive bishops
. Too much emphasis on accused priests, not victims
. More attention should have been given to preventative actions
Tuam
. 25 allegations reported to gardaí against 18 priests
. Ten of 18 priests dead, eight out of ministry
. Two priests convicted of an offence against a child
. Safeguarding children plan "did not exist in previous years"
. Past practices were "defensive and internally focused"
. Current Archbishop "showing strong leadership" in dealing with allegations
Kilmore
. Seven allegations reported to gardaí against seven priests
. Three out of seven priests dead, two out of ministry, two retired
. One convicted on an offence against a child
. One priest living in the diocese is known to be the subject of an allegation arising from a past ministry
. Fr Brendan Smyth response was "inadequate"
. No cases of a failure to report and address matters
. Current practices are a "consistently high standard"
Derry
. 31 allegations reported to gardaí against 23 priests
. 16 out of 23 priests dead, four out of ministry, three are retired
. No priests convicted of an offence against a child
. One priest living in the diocese is known to be the subject of an allegation arising from a past ministry
. Allegations not robustly challenged or adequately managed
. Abusive behaviour continued to be exhibited by priests who moved on
Dromore
. 35 allegations of abuse against 10 priests
. Three of 10 priests dead, seven out of ministry
. No priests convicted of an offence against a child
. Not all allegations promptly referred to the statutory agencies
. Bishop McAreavey consulted appropriately to ensure safety of children remained priority
Ardagh & Clonmacnoise
. 14 allegations reported to gardaí against 13 priests
. 12 of 13 priests dead, one out of ministry
. One convicted on an offence against a child
. Two priests who reside in diocese are known to be the subject of an allegation arising from a past ministry
. Good co-operation by Bishop Colm O'Reilly
. 10 recommendations concerning training and administration "

Many priests died, or victim(s) died or emigrated, some priests were transfered elsewhere / overseas, some victims told to keep quiet + not report it etc.

As you can see eg in Derry "31 allegations reported to gardaí against 23 priests.... 16 out of 23 priests dead, four out of ministry, three are retired"... not surprising the level of convictions is not as high as it would otherwise be..... and considering there are just over 3000 priests in the whole country.

ISAW

gigino wrote: »

but do not forget not all priests were convicted, far from it.

Exactly! WE have a justice system that unlike you does not assume guilt. You however seem to think at alleging something means that the person must have done it. Based on that type of thinking skinheads allege Jews and Blacks are a problem and are criminals and therefore being black or Jewish people arenot to be trusted and are criminals.

Should we also apply that "allegation= guilt" principle to priests?

From todays report http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/1130/dioceses.html

Again I gave you the source to the actual primary data and not a media report on it.
Why not go and read the report instead of media opinion on it?

http://www.safeguarding.ie/reviews-nov-2011/

"Key points:
Raphoe
. 52 allegations 14 priests
. Four convicted of an offence against a child

I gave you all this data and the source already. why is Raphoe put first by the media? Possibly because all the other diocese all added together don't have a greater number of convictions than Raphoe (=4) by itself? That's 4 convictions over more than 35 years. About one priest every 9 years of a population of thousands of priests.

Tuam/ Kilmore

Ditto I gave you the same figures and the source to them.

I'll admit I didn't include Dromore

. allegations against 10 priests
. No priests convicted of an offence against a child

But therewere no convictions so if anything it moves the percentageof clerical abusers down.

Ardagh & Clonmacnoise

Again figures already given.

Many priests died, or victim(s) died or emigrated, some priests were transfered elsewhere / overseas, some victims told to keep quiet + not report it etc.

Ah the old "the Jews and the blacks and the space aliens must be hiding the real actual truth which we have not seen so that only proves my conspiracy theory because the absence of evidence is proof of a cover up and an even bigger conspiracy than we thought" theory.
Look! No evidence is exactly that no evidence
It is not evidence of even more abuse elsewhere!
Not alone that but
- each diocese reports priests that came there form different areas outside their diocese so they cant be missing from the overall numbers.
- if a priest dies that also is recorded. Apparently, you however, think that someone that is accused and dies in the meantime must be guilty. Good think Fr Reynolds in Mayo didn't die then before he got to showing RTE were wrong eh?
And you totally ignored my stats about rape and assaults which run in the hundreds of thousands if not millions in Ireland over the same period. No you would rather focus on four priests in Raphoe over more than 35 years.

As you can see eg in Derry "31 allegations reported to gardaí against 23 priests.... 16 out of 23 priests dead, four out of ministry, three are retired"... not surprising the level of convictions is not as high as it would otherwise be..... and considering there are just over 3000 priests in the whole country.

Well you would be entirely wrong about that. I posted 1981 and 1991 census data showing
excluding nuns, brothers, trainee priests and other religious e.g. monks deacons
there were over 6,000 and that was in the 26 County Republic! and it was only priests. There might well have been 9,000. You are out possibly by a factor of three. But I'm sure you wont let the actual figures get in the way of a good story eh?

Not alone that but you are saying that "in spite of the actual evidence the rates of abuse must have been higher". Funny how you don't apply this conjecture to the millions and millions of sex crimes and assaults committed by non priests the CSO evidence for which I have supplied in my post just before yours?

I note also you picked out ferry? I wonder why? Is it because Derry had the highest number of allegations against Priests? Derry by the way I am sure you are aware is not in the 26 counties and not counted in the over 6,000 priests.
But in spite of having the highest number of allegations the number of convictions is zero. Of course now you are back to "space aliens must be hiding the real actual truth which we have not seen so that only proves my conspiracy theory because the absence of evidence is proof of a cover up ".

Actual report on Derry
http://www.safeguarding.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Derry_Review_Nov_2011.pdf

Please read it. the stats are on page 8.

page 22 Terms of Reference

3. To ascertain all of the cases during the relevant period in which the diocese: knew of child sexual abuse involving Catholic clergy and/or religious still living and including those clergy and/or religious visiting, studying and/or retired; had strong and clear suspicion of child sexual abuse; or had reasonable concern;
and examine/review and report on the nature of the response on the part of the diocese.

I trust you will accept "strong and clear suspicion" covers cases where priests whether convicted or not and whether living or dead. In fact the stats on poage eight refer to two cases not reported to PSNI or to Gardaí which came as hearsay through a third party in the Social services.

It really isnt good enough to say "If we are not finding loads of abusing priests the low percentages means the methodology is not thorough enough. " It really no better than saying "I know astrology/psychic spoonbending/mind reading works. Hundreds of reports testing it may show otherwise but they may not have considered that reporting it isn't what the true real psychics want to do so it must be there but was not uncovered by the reports"

In addition to the tiny percentages of clerical sexual abusers of children you also still have the problem of ignoring the 99 per cent plus of non clerical abuse. If the act is so bad why is it only bad when the less than one per cent of abusers who are RC priests do it and not when the other 99 per cent do it?

gigino

ISAW wrote: »

Based on that type of thinking skinheads allege Jews and Blacks are a problem and are criminals and therefore being black or Jewish people arenot to be trusted and are criminals.

ISAW wrote: »

Ah the old "the Jews and the blacks and the space aliens must be

ISAW wrote: »

Of course now you are back to "space aliens must be hiding the real actual truth which we have not seen so that only proves my conspiracy theory because the absence of evidence is proof of a cover up ".

I ( or anyone else I think ) never mentioned jews or aliens or blacks, and your analagy between me and a skinhead is wide off the mark.

ISAW wrote: »

I'll admit I didn't include Dromore

I gave you all the facts before, and you were proven wrong. You are back from your lengthy ban now ( you are no stranger to bans ) and you are at it again.

n.b I wrote "there are just over 3000 priests in the whole country" and I stand by that statement. I showed you the link earlier in the thread.

I do not think there is any point continuing to debate with someone, just back from another ban, who compares others to skinheads who you alledge would have racist opinions against blacks,jews etc.

CiaranMT

ISAW wrote: »

You point with the Futurama reference is?

A representation of those who would otherwise engage in debate running a mile at the sight of you, due in no small part to your posting style.

As regards your sig:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Kung

Hans Kung colleague Joseph Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI), in 1962 was appointed peritus by Pope John XXIII, serving as an expert theological advisor to members of the Second Vatican Council until its conclusion in 1965. At Küng's instigation, the Catholic faculty at Tübingen appointed Ratzinger as professor of dogmatics. However, due to the 1968 students revolt, Ratzinger moved to the University of Regensburg, ending cooperation between the two.

Küng argued that Barth, like Martin Luther, overreacted against the Catholic Church, which despite its imperfections has been and remains the body of Chris
he became the first major Roman Catholic theologian since the late 19th century Old Catholic Church schism to publicly reject the doctrine of papal infallibility,
on December 18, 1979, he was stripped of his missio canonica, his licence to teach as a Roman Catholic theologian, but carried on teaching as a tenured professor of ecumenical theology at the University of Tübingen until his retirement (Emeritierung) in 1996. To this day he remains a persistent critic of papal infallibility, which he claims is man-made (and thus reversible) rather than instituted by God.

on December 18, 1979, he was stripped of his missio canonica, his licence to teach as a Roman Catholic theologian, but carried on teaching as a tenured professor of ecumenical theology at the University of Tübingen until his retirement (Emeritierung) in 1996. To this day he remains a persistent critic of papal infallibility, which he claims is man-made (and thus reversible) rather than instituted by God.

So given this context the following quote is from Benedict (then Ratzinger) is from his homily explaining why Hans Küng had to be sent to a form of ecclesial imprisonment and denied the capacity to teach. The Christian believer is a simple person: bishops should protect the faith of these little people against the power of intellectuals.

Just so you get the context correct in case you didn't know.

Cheers. You do realise that increases the irony of the quote?

ISAW

gigino wrote: »

I ( or anyone else I think ) never mentioned jews or aliens or blacks, and your analagy between me and a skinhead is wide off the mark.

Not at all.

The central point of your post was ( and you have done this before for example in relation to numbers of accusations against priests in the USA ) that the number of allegations are directly correlated with the number of abusers.

One can take any religious minority priests, non christian religions e.g. jews , muslims and do the same thing. Make loads and loads and loads of allegations ( and especially highlight the few cases where the allegations are proven true) and the myth becomes propagated that the religious minority are associated with and actively involved in despicable crimes while neglecting the rest of society. It is called "scapegoating" it is a Biblical phrase.

You are doing it for Roman Catholic Priests.
Others have done it to claim blacks were criminals or that Jews were paracites on society.
Recently it was done on Muslims to paint them as supporting terrorism. a media myth was created about the fear of terrorism and WMDs from Iraq.
When people are afraid and there is a target for that fear they turn on that target and disregard fair play and decency.
So it is that maybe a million people are dead in Iraq based on a fake claim about WMD.

I gave you all the facts before,

You didn't - you equated allegations about Priests in the USA with convictions of priests as you are doing now. If you ever produced any evidence of rates of convictions in the USA then care to show where you produced these facts?

and you were proven wrong.

Where ? Any actual references to where I was proven wrong and what facts support that proof?

You are back from your lengthy ban now ( you are no stranger to bans ) and you are at it again.

That is just ad hominem so I wont respond to that.

n.b I wrote "there are just over 3000 priests in the whole country" and I stand by that statement. I showed you the link earlier in the thread.

Where?

I have shown you Central Statistic s Office Statistics from 1951 1981 and 1991
You can go and check them here:
http://www.cso.ie/en/census/historicalreports/

This covers the population of the RoI from 1926 to 1991
You will find the data under occupations persons male and female by occupation
for example 1971 it is chapter four table 2
You will find it under entry 319 and 320
6,415 male clergy and 2,158 other male religious and about 13,000 nuns
That excludes trainee priests.
and it is only for the 26 counties
And it is for 1991 when religious numbers were declining
Mind you if you look at the 1961 figures ( under entry 195-197 in Vol 3 table 2) they are about the same

But we are referring to a report on clergy from 1975 to 2010 So I thought 1991 would be a fair figure.
In 1996 there were 4,659 male clergy
In 2002 there were 2,873

As Ipointed out before you only too the latest figure and applies the statistics back to decades earlier when the numbers were to or three times the numbers they are now.
And that is for active priests alone and not for brothers nuns deacons students monks etc.

Where did you get the 3,000 figure?

I do not think there is any point continuing to debate with someone, just back from another ban, who compares others to skinheads who you alledge would have racist opinions against blacks,jews etc.

Which I didn't do. I compared the illogical and fallacious reasoning of
"well we have no hard evidence of and criminality and really only a fraction of tiny percentage of convictions but we all know the number of accusations means they are guilty"
Is they same basis of argument used by the US media for WMD in Iraq or by others to scapegoat other minorities.

I didn't say you were a racist and you are wholly mistaken if you think I did.
You are however clearly anti clerical and you apply the same mode of fallacious reasoning that others who try to scapegoat minorities use.

But, this here isn't just about about your anti clerical anti catholic views or motivations and whether it promotes hatred of Catholic Priests or anti catholic media myths in general;. It is specifically about you supporting claims about clerics which you make. And when you make them I hope I will be there to point out your misuse and/or distortion of statistics. And I will point out the bits you highlight and whether they stand up to scrutiny and I will point out the bits you neglect to highlight.

ISAW

CiaranMT wrote: »

A representation of those who would otherwise engage in debate running a mile at the sight of you, due in no small part to your posting style.

Posting a cartoon is somehow quite clearly such a representation? I would think in the absence of textual context it is a vague reference which is redundant should you have posted the text in the first place.
People also "run a mile" from Naom Chomsky due to his style but that does not mean he is wrong.

The character is also not apt as a critique. I mean a time traveler ignorant of the 20th century waking up in the 30th century where he is even more ignorant and that character deciding to run away from conflict is supposed to be a depiction of n intellectually or morally superior position?

Cheers. You do realise that increases the irony of the quote?

I demonstrated how Ratzinger pointed out how some intellectuals oppose the Church and how many ordinary Christians have not the knowledge to take on these peoples arguments and that he viewed this as part of a bishops role. It suggests that while Bishops don't require doctorates in divinity or theology to be Bishops that it is wise they have some education. That you find this ironic is your own business. Of course taken out of context one can present it as elitist. By the way you don't even know me but I have masde some critiques of Ratzinger since about the 1980s . That does not mean I don't view him as an highly intellectually equipped.

CiaranMT

ISAW wrote: »

Posting a cartoon is somehow quite clearly such a representation? I would think in the absence of textual context it is a vague reference which is redundant should you have posted the text in the first place.
People also "run a mile" from Naom Chomsky due to his style but that does not mean he is wrong.

The character is also not apt as a critique. I mean a time traveler ignorant of the 20th century waking up in the 30th century where he is even more ignorant and that character deciding to run away from conflict is supposed to be a depiction of n intellectually or morally superior position?




I demonstrated how Ratzinger pointed out how some intellectuals oppose the Church and how many ordinary Christians have not the knowledge to take on these peoples arguments and that he viewed this as part of a bishops role. It suggests that while Bishops don't require doctorates in divinity or theology to be Bishops that it is wise they have some education. That you find this ironic is your own business. Of course taken out of context one can present it as elitist. By the way you don't even know me but I have masde some critiques of Ratzinger since about the 1980s . That does not mean I don't view him as an highly intellectually equipped.

Wow...

ISAW

gigino wrote: »

n.b I wrote "there are just over 3000 priests in the whole country" and I stand by that statement. I showed you the link earlier in the thread.

I went back and looked at where you stated this.
I'm only asking you to keep an open mind and do a bit of reading an research.
Dont rely on your opinion - go and get the data to support it
If you cant do that and the facts disagree with you change your opinion!


You stated it in relation to the recent reports 1975-2011 on diocese in the north of Ireland
I posted this map
http://www.vocations.ie/Diocesan_Priesthood/Map_of_irish_Diocese
You will note Raphoe is basically Dinegal - in the republic
Parts of Armagh Kilmore and Clonmacnoise are in the south. The rest are in Northern Ireland

the 2006 Census lists 3,106 male clergy in the Republic.

her are some details on Armagh:
http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/diocese/darma.html
see under statistics

from 1975 - 2010 the percent of Catholic population went from 65 to 67.7 %

In 2006 they listed 81 male religious 190 priests and 1165 catholics per priest
here why not do the reast as an exercise and add up all the priests in
http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/country/die2.html
there are only four archdiocese to add up.

I reckon you will find more than 3,000 priests and that is even if numbers are declining.

marienbad

Welcome back ISAW. May I ask what exactly are you trying to say ?

Are you saying that it is all a media conspiracy and blown out of proportion or what ?

You are quick to remind others that this is the clerical abuse thread ( when the Magdelene Laundries are mentioned for example) but you are forever bringing issues that have simply nothing to do with the issue and just serve to muddy the waters.

All those statistics you keep quoting can only serve as guidelines at best due to the passage of time. It was a terrible time in Ireland and people have moved on as best they can. Some have sought closure through the law and others have buried it deep and never wish to speak of it again.
Did you report your abuse ? I know I did'nt, and I am not alone . I know of quite a few that did not and just want no more reminders of it. So that skews any stats right off and I suspect you know this.

While I admire your dogged conviction, I just don't see your point with this line by line forensic reading of every post - surely you recognise that it is and has been a huge problem within the Catholic Church and that is the only real issue.

ISAW

marienbad wrote: »

Welcome back ISAW. May I ask what exactly are you trying to say ?

Thanks and yes you may.

Are you saying that it is all a media conspiracy and blown out of proportion or what ?

I have stated it is out of proportion yes.
I would think the stats support that contention.
I would think the media have treated this issue as they have others

You are quick to remind others that this is the clerical abuse thread ( when the Magdelene Laundries are mentioned for example)

If it can be compared to the sexual abuse of children by clergy or anyone else then fair enough.

The Magdalen laundaries are continually brought up as examples of Roman Church organized authoritarian abuse
They were first set up by Protestants
They were populated by older women of child bearing age - RC clerical abuse in this thread is usually about sexual abuse of per pubescent children. Sexual abuse of older minors is statistically almost always of males .
Few priests if any were involved in running them

but you are forever bringing issues that have simply nothing to do with the issue and just serve to muddy the waters.

Such as? Scapegoating and media myths happen outside just clerics as targets.

All those statistics you keep quoting can only serve as guidelines at best due to the passage of time.

If you referto abuse in 1951 or 1971 and you refer to a rate of abuse then one can easily go and look at how many non clerical criminal rapes or how many actual priests ther were at the time.

It was a terrible time in Ireland and people have moved on as best they can. Some have sought closure through the law and others have buried it deep and never wish to speak of it again.

Butcleriocs are told they cant do that and all has to be exposed. Not alonethat but even such victims have been doubly abused in this thread by beingtold they have to unbury abuse or they are assisting the abusers!

Did you report your abuse ? I know I did'nt, and I am not alone .

Well there you go! And others will say we facilitate abusers but I can tell you you can have a clear conscience on that account. I don't blame victims.

I know of quite a few that did not and just want no more reminders of it. So that skews any stats right off and I suspect you know this.

Yes but you are ignoring the fact that non clerical abuse was also not reported which unskews the stats! Also many of the abused were abused by people who are already accused by someone else. In fact clerical abuse is statistically more likely to have multiple victims than non clerical abuse so it can be argued that the non reporting if skewed is skewed to increase the clerical percentage rather than decrease it as you might think.

While I admire your dogged conviction, I just don't see your point with this line by line forensic reading of every post - surely you recognise that it is and has been a huge problem within the Catholic Church and that is the only real issue.

What line by line analysis a problem ? Joking aside, the style is called inline posting and is used in usenet where I posted for at least a decade before posting to boards. Yes abuseof children by clerics or anybody elseis seriously wrong
The points are

The levels of Roman Catholic clerics were very low The Church don't cover it up as is alleged The church didn't cover it up when it was at its worst. Some of the hierarchy or clergy( less than 0.1 per cent I reckon ) did The Church reacted to abuse and acted quicker thn the state who still lags the church action The State has hugely more higher levels ( for example I refer to over 200 deaths in State care in the last decade) even today

[/quote]

marienbad

ISAW, to a certain extent you are missing the wood for the trees, forget the States role in all of this, weather it is better or worse, or the number that died in care in the last ten years, or if you wish us to discuss that let us open a thread on it. It is no defense to say that the other guy/institution/religion is/was worse. It is no defense to say that the Magdelene Laundries were originally of a different denomination.Forget the media plots and hype and the perceived anti catholic agenda.

By your own beliefs none the above will hold any sway when all come before their maker, after all ''Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven''.

If you could do that and bear with me for a moment and we consider just two cases- Brendan Smyth and Sean Fortune and lets analyse how all the participants performed and why. And lets measure those participants against any yardstick you like, common decency, the law of the land, canon law, whatever.

It was those cases that really set the ball rolling on all of this and I believe all the perceptions ( false or otherwise) were coloured by those events.

Are you up for it ?

Propellerhead

My mother (long before the 1990s) has spoken to me of the horrendous treatment girls she calls "orphans" were given by the sisters who taught in her school in the thirties and forties.

In a nutshell, I believe that these are the main points.

1. The Irish State was utterly impoverished after independence, and those who ran the country were a tiny and relatively well off class who did not have any understanding, nor did they want to, of the mass of badly off people that lived here.
2. It was no coincidence that the failure of the Irish State to cater in any meaningful way for its people lead to mass emigration, and in fact still does.
3. The Churches filled the gap in social services with the active approval of a higly parsiminous Department of Finance.
4. Both Catholic and Protestant homes (AFAIK) for unmarried mothers took a punitive approach to the women who were unfortunate enough to warrant their services.
5. The Catholic Magdalene homes took the whole thing the stage further where it is entirely fair to call them Gulags for women. This was because the punitive treatment and engendered "shame" created was to encourage other women not to go down the same way as the "penitents"
6. The mass vocations encouraged meant that there were many in religious life who were not at all suited to the job. Lack of money, a rigid and authoritarian religion and structure meant that brutalisation whether intended or not was part and parcel of the structure.
7. Excessive deference meant that bullies were given power to use and abuse.

Should anyone be then surprised that many of us who were brought up as Roman Catholics be at least somewhat skeptical about the institution? The Master said, "Suffer little children to come unto me". He most certainly did not want to make them suffer, and if anyone needed to be driven from the Temple of twentieth century Irish Catholicism, surely to God it was those who maintained and tolerated the Gulags as being part of Holy Church's work? They were a blasphemy.

Doc Farrell

'We see in a truely terrifying way that the greatest persecution of the church does not come from outside enemies but is born of sin within the Church.'

'One would be deluded to think that the prophetic mission of Fatima has been concluded.'

The two sentences above were spoken by the Pope last year. They have been on my mind recently. In particular in relation to the sexual abuse of children by catholics. To know that you are doing evil and to do it anyway seems to point to one thing. This is especially true of priests. It points to the view that these priests do not believe that Jesus Christ is alive. It indicates to me that they don't believe that they will be judged when they die.
The bullying and the physical assults on children by catholics is explainable by the education that those catholics received and by the grinding poverty and culture of bullying that existed in catholic organisations right up until the 1990's. I remember what they were like in the 70's and 80's.
But the sexual assault on children, in particular on pre-pubescent children, is much worse. It is evidence of Evil, and I don't use that word very often. How could a priest believe in the Resurrection, believe that in 40 or 50 years when he died that he would be held accountable for his actions and yet still go ahead and hurt a child?
The answer to me is that he didn't believe. They were not just not Christians but as abusers they were anti-christs.
I've seen catholic laypersons in schools act cruelly but a priest is different. He is literally representing Christ at the sacraments. It will be interesting to see what psychiatric tests will be brought in for seminarians over the next while.
The most astute observations I have read are by Fr. James Martin in an essay called Narcissism and Grandiosity, which he also reads to camera on youtube.

The Quadratic Equation

Doc Farrell wrote: »

'We see in a truely terrifying way that the greatest persecution of the church does not come from outside enemies but is born of sin within the Church.'

'One would be deluded to think that the prophetic mission of Fatima has been concluded.'

The two sentences above were spoken by the Pope last year. They have been on my mind recently. In particular in relation to the sexual abuse of children by catholics. To know that you are doing evil and to do it anyway seems to point to one thing. This is especially true of priests. It points to the view that these priests do not believe that Jesus Christ is alive. It indicates to me that they don't believe that they will be judged when they die.
The bullying and the physical assults on children by catholics is explainable by the education that those catholics received and by the grinding poverty and culture of bullying that existed in catholic organisations right up until the 1990's. I remember what they were like in the 70's and 80's.
But the sexual assault on children, in particular on pre-pubescent children, is much worse. It is evidence of Evil, and I don't use that word very often. How could a priest believe in the Resurrection, believe that in 40 or 50 years when he died that he would be held accountable for his actions and yet still go ahead and hurt a child?
The answer to me is that he didn't believe. They were not just not Christians but as abusers they were anti-christs.
I've seen catholic laypersons in schools act cruelly but a priest is different. He is literally representing Christ at the sacraments. It will be interesting to see what psychiatric tests will be brought in for seminarians over the next while.
The most astute observations I have read are by Fr. James Martin in an essay called Narcissism and Grandiosity, which he also reads to camera on youtube.

I agree, and there are lots of monsters in Irish society as a whole, not just Catholics in the Catholic Church, but most of us can differentiate between them and the vast majority of decent people in Ireland and decent people in the Catholic church, to do anything else would be to submit to and become part of the very same evil we condem.

ISAW

marienbad wrote: »

ISAW, to a certain extent you are missing the wood for the trees,

How so?

forget the States role in all of this,

so focus on the less than one percent of abusers and we will see the wood and not the trees? Come on!

It is no defense to say that the other guy/institution/religion is/was worse. It is no defense to say that the Magdelene Laundries were originally of a different denomination.

I'm not saying either! Im saying posters go on about "endemic" child abuse and then singleout less than one percent of abusers as a special target.
Also Magdalen Laundaries while worth discussing ( and there is a thread on it) are NOT examples of child abuse. Ironically when the separate thread was started on it it quickly descended into the real motives for some poster posting - attacking the clergy.

Forget the media plots and hype and the perceived anti catholic agenda.

It isn't perceived. You are saying if the agenda is there to attack and abuse the Church that we should be there to facilitate that planned abuse?

By your own beliefs none the above will hold any sway when all come before their maker, after all ''Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven''.

Sorry but "jam tomorrow" isn't everyone's philosophy. It is a persons duty to act if they see something wrong. Shutting up and ignoring it is irresponsible.

If you could do that and bear with me for a moment and we consider just two cases- Brendan Smyth and Sean Fortune and lets analyse how all the participants performed and why.

If you wish to go individual cases go ahead but I dont think the existance of evil people proves anything about the Church or about any conspiracy.

And lets measure those participants against any yardstick you like, common decency, the law of the land, canon law, whatever.

It was those cases that really set the ball rolling on all of this and I believe all the perceptions ( false or otherwise) were colored by those events.

There were other cases. In the Smyth caseI havepointed out that the State is the law of the land. The church does not have penal juristiction. The State didnt have a rape law fopr rape of boys ( though there were other lesser laws) and ( complicated by the National question) there was no Extradition. Three were a series of blunders by the State solicitor's office /DPP as well. On top of that he was one of the worst offendres in Irish history.

Fortune is a difficult case because he died before trial so we haveto go by Ferns and maybe Cloney's ( also now dead) dossier. however the cases were not all outside the jurisdiction. Some however were in Belfast. Again maybe the DPP Gardai failed to investigate up to 1990, Fortune should not have been made a priest and given current procedures would not be And his Bishop should have had procedures to act on and this also was a failure. The Bishop Comiskey was aware of three prior cases dating back ten years before the fourth case came about and Fortune was reported to the Gardai in 1995 ( p.228 Ferns report)

While the Bishop was out of the country from Sept 95 till Feb 96 and all Church files were handed over on his return ( even though they had not been requested) there could have been more cooperation since Feb-Mar 95when the first complaint was made. The Bishop resigned. The case took the state until four more years 1999 to get to trial when Fortune killed himself.

Comiskeys predecerssor Herlihy was probably more to blame. Since 2002 when Eamon Walsh came in there is a whole new set of rules as regards new allegationsand he also investigate all old allegations.

marienbad

I will just leave it at that ISAW , I know you don't intent it so but your attitude is painful in the extreme.