The Clerical Child Abuse Thread (merged)

ISAW

marienbad wrote: »

...consider just two cases- Brendan Smyth and Sean Fortune and lets analyse how all the participants performed and why. And lets measure those participants against any yardstick you like, common decency, the law of the land, canon law, whatever.

It was those cases that really set the ball rolling on all of this and I believe all the perceptions ( false or otherwise) were coloured by those events.

Are you up for it ?

marienbad wrote: »

I will just leave it at that ISAW , I know you don't intent it so but your attitude is painful in the extreme.

I find your second comment bizzarre. Given you asked what is in bold above and I did that, I fail to see how after asking about Smyth and Fortune and after I replying on it based on common decency, the law of the land and canon law you now having got what you asked for apparently don't want it!

ISAW

Propellerhead wrote: »

My mother (long before the 1990s) has spoken to me of the horrendous treatment girls she calls "orphans" were given by the sisters who taught in her school in the thirties and forties.

In a nutshell, I believe that these are the main points.

1. The Irish State was utterly impoverished after independence, and those who ran the country were a tiny and relatively well off class who did not have any understanding, nor did they want to, of the mass of badly off people that lived here.

I would reject that. There may have been an element of comfortable West Brit Anglo elitist elements but I hardly think you could apply that to Dev or Sean Mc Bride or Noel Browne or Jim Kemmy. They might be more likely to be in the higher echelons of the civil service but
I would consider the pattern probably the same that at the foundation of the State the leaderswer4enot so far removed from the people. The facist elements of Fine Gael/Cummann na Gael and their relationship with elitists orauthoritarians like Archbiship Mc Quade might be an exception but they were later in the 1930s

2. It was no coincidence that the failure of the Irish State to cater in any meaningful way for its people lead to mass emigration, and in fact still does.

I think that is unfair. Ireland was in an economic Wart with the largest most widespread Empire in the history of the Planet. We were cut off from Europe and had no industrial base. You cant claim Cuba is a failed State if the US embargoes it and destroys their economy can you?

3. The Churches filled the gap in social services with the active approval of a higly parsiminous Department of Finance.

And it still does.

4. Both Catholic and Protestant homes (AFAIK) for unmarried mothers took a punitive approach to the women who were unfortunate enough to warrant their services.

Well that isnt a Christian philosophy so much as an authoritarian or right wing one which suggests if you make the mistake of getting pregnant that State hand outs should only come if you offer effort or work.

5. The Catholic Magdalene homes took the whole thing the stage further where it is entirely fair to call them Gulags for women. This was because the punitive treatment and engendered "shame" created was to encourage other women not to go down the same way as the "penitents"

But they were there voluntarily and they didnt die or starve and all of them didnt operate like the worst of them so "gulag" is not fair at all.

6. The mass vocations encouraged meant that there were many in religious life who were not at all suited to the job. Lack of money, a rigid and authoritarian religion and structure meant that brutalisation whether intended or not was part and parcel of the structure.

Well it appears there were about 5-8,000 priests/male religious in a population of about 2-3 million people. Not really a source of income for most people. But I agree people aspired to be clerics and many were not suitable by todays standards. Of course many were not suitable to be soldiers either but did their job and they would not be soliders today.

7. Excessive deference meant that bullies were given power to use and abuse.

Yes but not everywhere and not exclusively by clergy and not not only in religious institutions.

Should anyone be then surprised that many of us who were brought up as Roman Catholics be at least somewhat skeptical about the institution?

Given the weaknessof your seven points and the fact they dont apply only to the Church then YES they should be surprised.

surely to God it was those who maintained and tolerated the Gulags as being part of Holy Church's work? They were a blasphemy.

The purple prose might contribute to oratory but on analysis isn't suitable for debate.
The "Gulag" term isn't apt nor are "Holocaust" or "genocide" or "concentration camp" before you get to using them.

gimme5minutes

It is an absolute disgrace that Sean Brady is still in charge of the Catholic Church in Ireland. The amount of devastation caused by this lowlife's actions (and in-actions) is staggering. The Church can have no credibility as long as they have this scumbag running it.

Diarmaid Martin seems to be leagues ahead of the rest of them, he should have been put in charge long ago. The only issue I have with Martin is that he should have demanded Brady goes.

Andrew49

A collection organised by Catholics in Donegal for Fr. Eugene Greene* while he was in jail is estimated to exceed €50,000 - some sources say the collection is closer to €80,000.

* He used sexual violence on 100 children.

A former top Garda has warned that dozens of people across Donegal have committed suicide because of child sex abuse. Retired Detective Martin Ridge has been a brave campaigner against paedophiles for many years. He helped to investigate and jail two of Donegal’s most notorious paedos, Fr.Eugene Greene and schoolteacher Denis McGinley from Gortahork. Now Mr Ridge, 63, has said he has not doubt that sex abuse is one of the key factors behind people taking their own lives in Donegal. Suicides in the county have risen from 10 in 2008 to 20 in 2009 although nobody really knows the true figure.

“Child abuse is a cancer, a plague on society, but we have not faced up to it. The only people who have given a voice to these people are the survivors themselves. Those who presided over the carnage are still in power. Victims were let down by every system, the Church, the health service and even the Gardai."

Doc Farrell

Andrew49 wrote: »

A collection organised by Catholics in Donegal for Fr. Eugene Greene* while he was in jail is estimated to exceed €50,000 - some sources say the collection is closer to €80,000.

* He used sexual violence on 100 children.

A former top Garda has warned that dozens of people across Donegal have committed suicide because of child sex abuse. Retired Detective Martin Ridge has been a brave campaigner against paedophiles for many years. He helped to investigate and jail two of Donegal’s most notorious paedos, Fr.Eugene Greene and schoolteacher Denis McGinley from Gortahork. Now Mr Ridge, 63, has said he has not doubt that sex abuse is one of the key factors behind people taking their own lives in Donegal. Suicides in the county have risen from 10 in 2008 to 20 in 2009 although nobody really knows the true figure.

“Child abuse is a cancer, a plague on society, but we have not faced up to it. The only people who have given a voice to these people are the survivors themselves. Those who presided over the carnage are still in power. Victims were let down by every system, the Church, the health service and even the Gardai."

Thats a very disturbing story. I only hope whoever organised or contributed to the collection had none of their children raped by him. Disturbing and sickening, whats the name of the group who made the collection?

The Quadratic Equation

Andrew49 wrote: »

A collection organised by Catholics in Donegal for Fr. Eugene Greene* while he was in jail is estimated to exceed €50,000 - some sources say the collection is closer to €80,000.

If accurate that's awful, have you the source for this claim and figure ? What year was it collected, and in what town(s) ? Who organised it, How many of them were aware of his convictions ? If they were not, who kept it from them ?, and who has the money now ? Has it been handed over to Green, and if so when ?

All these details should be publicised by the media.

Fittle

Firstly, my apologies for not reading all of the posts here, there are many that are comments on previous posts and it would take me a long time to go through them. But I'd like some information/advice. This isn't a PI by the way, more a post about the affects of clerical abuse in a family.

I grew up in a pretty dysfunctional family. I wasn't abused by a priest or a cleric thankfully. But my older siblings - all 8 of them - were placed in industrial schools and abused by priests and clerics in the 50s, as our parents were ill.

When myself and my brother came along, we were born into a pretty dysfunctional family.

I often wonder if there is any support out there for people like me and my brother.

People who were never abused themselves. But people (children) who suffered tremendously because of the dysfunction the church caused to our parents and siblings. I often say I will write a book about the 'madness' of my family...but I'll have to wait until none of them are around to read the book unfortunately.

lmaopml

Fittle wrote: »

When myself and my brother came along, we were born into a pretty dysfunctional family.

I often wonder if there is any support out there for people like me and my brother.

People who were never abused themselves. But people (children) who suffered tremendously because of the dysfunction the church caused to our parents and siblings. I often say I will write a book about the 'madness' of my family...but I'll have to wait until none of them are around to read the book unfortunately.

There is always somebody to turn to...you are never alone no matter how alone you feel ever...

Your first port of call should be your GP if you are feeling low in any way please make an appointment, they can help, and people do care about your health and mental wellbeing..

Here are a list of other services too...

Support services for Adults
Towards Healing is a counselling and support service for survivors of Institutional, Clerical and Religious abuse, funded by the Catholic Church. If you have suffered in this way, Towards Healing will provide services to you no matter where you are currently living. From the Republic of Ireland call FreeFone 1800 303 416 or from Northern Ireland or UK call 0800 096 3315.



One in Four
offers a voice to and support to men and women who have experienced sexual abuse and/or sexual violence. Phone 01 6624070



Rape Crisis Centres ....are voluntary organisations which provide a comprehensive therapy programme for victims of rape and sexual abuse. They also offer a confidential listening and support service for women and men who have been raped and/or sexually abused, or for anyone who wants to talk about the effects of sexual violence. Freephone 1800 77 88 88



The Samaritans are available 24 hours a day to provide confidential emotional support for people who are experiencing feelings of distress or despair, including those which may lead to suicide. Full contact details for the Irish Branches can be found here. National numbers are referenced on the homepage. Freephone 1850 60 90 90



Crime Victims Helpline is a National Helpline which offers support to victims of crime in Ireland. Freephone 1850 211407



The National Counselling Service is a community based service for adults who were hurt by childhood abuse in Ireland. There is a service set up in each Health Board Area. Freephone 1800 303 529



Public Service information for Ireland can be found on the Citizens Information website.


There is always here that you can talk too about anything at all Fittle..I'm deeply sorry for your pain - I wish I could change it..but alas I can't.

Jezzabelle

Quote:
5. The Catholic Magdalene homes took the whole thing the stage further where it is entirely fair to call them Gulags for women. This was because the punitive treatment and engendered "shame" created was to encourage other women not to go down the same way as the "penitents"

But they were there voluntarily and they didnt die or starve and all of them didnt operate like the worst of them so "gulag" is not fair at all.

What a disgusting not to mention untrue statement. The majority of Magdelene victims were certainly not there voluntarily and it is well documented that a great many of them died and suffered horrific abuse and violence at the hands of these vile people. Shame on you for making such a comment.

ISAW

gimme5minutes wrote: »

It is an absolute disgrace that Sean Brady is still in charge of the Catholic Church in Ireland. The amount of devastation caused by this lowlife's actions (and in-actions) is staggering. The Church can have no credibility as long as they have this scumbag running it.

Well this was discussed eariler and was one of the merged subthreads but what do you suggest as bishop he did whichis disgracefull?

What elsedo you suggest?

Other than the taking of the statement of two victimsof Brendan snyth or matters relating to that? - which was already discussed - care to state where you differ from that discussion?

What else are you saying makes him a scumbag?

ISAW

Andrew49 wrote: »

A collection organised by Catholics in Donegal for Fr. Eugene Greene* while he was in jail is estimated to exceed €50,000 - some sources say the collection is closer to €80,000.

Greene is no doubt one of the four convicted priests listed in the Raphoe stats

Who made this collection?
Where is this money now?

Given Greene was released from prison in 2008 what do you suggest be done with him ( or any non clerical pedophile for that matter)?

ISAW

Fittle wrote: »

I often wonder if there is any support out there for people like me and my brother.

What sort of support do you want? Councilling ? Housing? Education? Money?

If you dont want to go to your local parish go to a nearby one. they all have professional councillors. It is done on a voluntary fee basis so you could do it for free. You can ask about them supporting your education job hunting or whatever else. Please don't think you are alone or isolated. There are people there in your local community ready willing to help and others actually paid to do so. If you don't get immediate action PM me. I'll do some research for you on defining your needs and sources of help if you wish. Otherwise you can anonymously contact one of the agencies mentioned. you dint mention if you are married or have family of your own. Councilling also is available for them.

I hope and pray you will resolve your problems or learn to cope with them.

Fittle

ISAW wrote: »

What sort of support do you want? Councilling ? Housing? Education? Money?

None of the above now - I've done all the counselling that can be done. I guess it's more an acknowledgement of the cr&p myself and my brother went through, as an indirect consequence of the abuse our siblings suffered. We were often told we were the 'lucky ones' that neither of us were placed in the care of the state...but we suffered desperately as children, because of the dysfunction that surrounded us (and still does).

Even now, as my family are in the aftermath of the near-death of one of our siblings, on the surface, we appeared to do great in supporting one another etc. But the 'madness' is still there. The resentment the older ones feel (some of whom I haven't seen in years) towards myself and my brother, because we escaped being put into an industrial school, remains the same.

I'm sure I'm not alone in being raised in a family suffering the aftermatch of clerical abuse, but I've found that alot of the support groups focus purely on the actual victims of the abuse, and less on the likes of those who were affected by their abuse.

ISAW

Fittle wrote: »

I guess it's more an acknowledgement of the cr&p myself and my brother went through, ...

You raise an interesting point. What would you think would satisfy you. I dont know if your local Bishop would know anything about thiose times and maybe was not about at the time so would meeting him and him saying he was sorry and that mistakes were made do anything for you? Perhaps not? Maybe like al anon there is a need for support groups fopr the families of victims? Maybe not just for clerical abuse but for the families of the victims of the the other 99 per cent of abusers? The Church might only play a small part in the numbers of abusers involved but I'm sure they could facilitate a large part in supporting such groups. What do you think could be done? Made rooms and experts available? Provide awareness of current child protection policies? What else might you suggest?

Even now, as my family are in the aftermath of the near-death of one of our siblings,

That ios terrible. Was it an accident or directly related to the abuse history?

The resentment the older ones feel (some of whom I haven't seen in years) towards myself and my brother, because we escaped being put into an industrial school, remains the same.

Maybe if you met and talked to some of the vast majority of the 170,000 industrial school students and teachers who though in an austere regime had a positive experience?

I'm sure I'm not alone in being raised in a family suffering the aftermatch of clerical abuse, but I've found that alot of the support groups focus purely on the actual victims of the abuse, and less on the likes of those who were affected by their abuse.

that is a good point. But again for every family like that there are a hundred who suffered from non clerical abuse. If people are to be helped why focus only on the clerical element?

Fittle

ISAW wrote: »

You raise an interesting point. What would you think would satisfy you. I dont know if your local Bishop ....

You are seriously expecting me to go to my local Bishop

'The Church might only play a small part in the numbers of abusers in...'

In my own family, as I stated, the Church played 100% role in the number of children who were abused by clerics (8 out of 8)

'Maybe if you met and talked to some of the vast majority of the 170,000 industrial school students and teachers who though in an austere regime had a positive experience?'

I have to yet to hear or read about ONE person who had a positive experience in an industrial school - and I've done a massive amount of research over the past five years in trying to put together my own families history.

'If people are to be helped why focus only on the clerical element?'

Because I was focussing on MY family, where all of the children were abused by clerics.

'Was it an accident or directly related to the abuse history?'

Ultimately, as you pose the question in this way, (and I'd like to make it clear that I wasn't trying to suggest that his illness was directly related to his abuse) then the answer would be an emphatic yes. He was abused at a 6yr old by 3 clerics... and 3 years ago, he received a small amount of compensation from the redress board. He has slowly been drinking and smoking his way to death, is now homeless and will end up on the streets if the hospital discharge him anytime soon. Opening up the wounds of his abuse, put him on a downward spiral of destruction - he then had money to spend on drink and drugs (cigarettes) that would make the pain go away again. Instead, he almost killed himself, and will most probably go back on the downward spiral the second he can get himself to a shop to buy packet of smokes.

There are thousands of men like my brother out there - men who don't necessarily commit suicide (in the 'real' sense) because of what happened to them...but who are killing themselves one day at a time instead.

gimme5minutes

ISAW wrote: »

Well this was discussed eariler and was one of the merged subthreads but what do you suggest as bishop he did whichis disgracefull?

What elsedo you suggest?

Other than the taking of the statement of two victimsof Brendan snyth or matters relating to that? - which was already discussed - care to state where you differ from that discussion?

What else are you saying makes him a scumbag?

What was disgraceful??? Are you serious? How about being part involved in making victims of paedophiles priests take a vow of secrecy, ie. covering up child abuse. Why wasn't he straight down to the gardai station with all the info he had on Brendan Smyth? Smyth went on to abuse lots more children, some of whom ended up committing suicide over it down the line, and the hierarchy did f*ck all about it. In fact they facilitated it.

I take it if it came to your attention that children known to you had been abused and that the abuser was still at large you would be straight on to the gardai like any decent human being? If I found out someone was abusing kids I would do everthing in my power to have them locked up, whether they were my boss, a relative, a friend, I wouldn't give a damn who they are. It takes a serious scumbag mindset to engage in covering up for a child abuser. Especially one as notorious as Smyth who had been known to be abusing chilren for the previous 30 years...ffs

I dont know how you can say Brady's action weren't disgraceful when he himself has said he is ashamed of his actions.

gigino

Overly personal reference edited out.

ISAW

Fittle wrote: »

You are seriously expecting me to go to my local Bishop

I'm asking you whether you think it would help for the local bishop or cardinal to come to you. Maybe you don't feel that would help at all. I mean you suggested something might be done for you. I mean if it could be arranged for you to have a personal audience with the Pope would that make any difference? Or the current head of the order who owned in the institution which were responsible for the abuse?

'The Church might only play a small part in the numbers of abusers in...'

In my own family, as I stated, the Church played 100% role in the number of children who were abused by clerics (8 out of 8)

Indeed but
1. There were more than 8 people abused in Ireland.
2. No matter how many were abused I'm pointing out that Roman Catholics represent less than one per cent of the abusers of children.

'Maybe if you met and talked to some of the vast majority of the 170,000 industrial school students and teachers who though in an austere regime had a positive experience?'

I have to yet to hear or read about ONE person who had a positive experience in an industrial school - and I've done a massive amount of research over the past five years in trying to put together my own families history.

Aha! well then we might be getting somewhere. I can indroduce to such people. In fact the vast majority of industrial school children were not abused. That isnt to say the conditions or for the other five million or so other children in Ireland over the same period lived in luxury paradise. ButI can certainly introduce you to instutional former students and to students of the christian brothers all of whom will tell you they got a good education and certainly suffered no sexual abuse and were not even aware it existed.

'If people are to be helped why focus only on the clerical element?'
Because I was focussing on MY family, where all of the children were abused by clerics.

That is fair enough and we can go into meeting people who didn't suffer abuse and went to institutions or meeting bishops in your case. But the general point you raise is about families of those abused. Given less than one per cent of abusers were clerics we should consider the victims of the other 99 per cent of abusers too if we are to be fair and should we not?

'Was it an accident or directly related to the abuse history?'

Ultimately, as you pose the question in this way, (and I'd like to make it clear that I wasn't trying to suggest that his illness was directly related to his abuse) then the answer would be an emphatic yes. He was abused at a 6yr old by 3 clerics... and 3 years ago, he received a small amount of compensation from the redress board. He has slowly been drinking and smoking his way to death, is now homeless and will end up on the streets if the hospital discharge him anytime soon. Opening up the wounds of his abuse, put him on a downward spiral of destruction - he then had money to spend on drink and drugs (cigarettes) that would make the pain go away again. Instead, he almost killed himself, and will most probably go back on the downward spiral the second he can get himself to a shop to buy packet of smokes.

That suggests that his problems will only exacerbated by giving him money. He most probably needs more professional help and he should not have to pay for it.

There are thousands of men like my brother out there - men who don't necessarily commit suicide (in the 'real' sense) because of what happened to them...but who are killing themselves one day at a time instead.

I disagree. Depression is the main cause of suicide and this depression is obviously a direct consequence of abuse. I am really concerned and think you should try and get him back into councilling and seek professional advice yourself.

Please don't leave this go. go and contact a professional councilor as soon as possible. If you don't have the money your local parish, or a state or voluntary agency will provide one. You have to remember no matter how bad you feel or how much you don't like doing things you are still capable of acting. Please act as soon as you can.

ISAW

gimme5minutes wrote: »

What was disgraceful??? Are you serious? How about being part involved in making victims of paedophiles priests take a vow of secrecy, ie. covering up child abuse.

Other than that issue? anything else?

Why wasn't he straight down to the gardai station with all the info he had on Brendan Smyth?

Already answered earlier in the thread.
No rape agains a male law in Ireland
No criminal juristiction - crime took place in Northern Ireland
No extradition available - extradition was a hot political issue and the Law enabling it was not in place till a decade later
Even if all the above was solved Brady had no locus standi i.e. under law he was not empowered to take a case he had no "standing" no moire than a sternographer can issue or take a prosecution against someone for whom they are taking a statement.
The person with the locus standi was the legal guardian ( parents) of the child and they had actively decided for whatever reason ( and Brady had no influence with them or contact with them ) not to take a case.
All of this of course was before Brady was a bishop let alone Cardinal.


But other than this have you any other examples?
Other than the two victims of Smyth issue anything else?

and the hierarchy did f*ck all about it. In fact they facilitated it.

That is a different issue.
Brady was not part of "the hierarchy" at the time and did not facilitate Smyth.

I take it if it came to your attention that children known to you had been abused and that the abuser was still at large you would be straight on to the gardai like any decent human being?

Well if I lived in Ireland in 1974 and it came to my attention ( through hearsay since I didnt see it myself) that someone had abused children in Northern Ireland and I went to the Gardai as I pointed out they would not take the statement from me since i had no standing. Nor would they investigate it sine is was outside their juristiction. Nor is it likely would any Republisan/Catholic families report it to the RUC if they actually witnessed it.
Nor if they did report it would there be any way to make Smyth stand trial since due to the lack of criminal juristiction there would be no grounds for arrest in the north and if there were there would be no extradition available.

I dont know how you can say Brady's action weren't disgraceful when he himself has said he is ashamed of his actions.

Last week Brendan Boland on of the two "boys" involved reached a settlement with Brady.
Given they are happy with that whatelse do you suggest aside from the case of these two boys is relevant where Cardinal/Bishop Brady is concerned?

gimme5minutes

ISAW wrote: »

Other than that issue? anything else?

Anything else?? ...There doesn't need to be anything else, his facilitating in the cover up for Brendan Smyth is enough to mark him as a scumbag.

No rape agains a male law in Ireland

So what, he could have been charged under assault. There were also laws covering holding people against their will. There were plenty of charges that could have been brought even if there was no specific rape against males law....You can be sure it was an offence to assault children in Ireland in 1975, whatever form that assault takes. Oh, and in any case nevermind that Smyth was abusing girls too.

No criminal juristiction - crime took place in Northern Ireland
No extradition available - extradition was a hot political issue and the Law enabling it was not in place till a decade later

So what? Are you telling me Brendan Smyth never set foot in Northern Ireland from 1975 on? Well that makes no sense because he 'he fled to the Republic of Ireland' after his arrest in 1991. Brady should have alerted both the Gardai and the RUC to Smyths abuse. There's no excuse for it. What kind of scumbag mindset does it take to have information of children being raped and abused, and the abuser still at large, and not to take that information to the authorities...to have knowledge that a man as evil as Smyth is at large abusing children but to keep quiet.

Even if all the above was solved Brady had no locus standi i.e. under law he was not empowered to take a case he had no "standing" no moire than a sternographer can issue or take a prosecution against someone for whom they are taking a statement.
The person with the locus standi was the legal guardian ( parents) of the child and they had actively decided for whatever reason ( and Brady had no influence with them or contact with them ) not to take a case.

Again so what??? Why are you bringing irrelevant nonsense into this? Brady didn't have to take any case...all he had to do was the decent thing, - inform the authorities.

All of this of course was before Brady was a bishop let alone Cardinal.

Yet again, so what? More irrelevant nonsense. What difference does it make if he wasnt a bishop or cardinal at the time? If I knew someone was raping and abusing children and my boss/friend/relative etc... told me not to report it for whatever reason I would tell them to go f*** themselves and I would be straight on to the authorities. Just like any decent person would.

But other than this have you any other examples?
Other than the two victims of Smyth issue anything else?

What else is needed? Covering up the abuse in this case was bad enough. But if you want more well maybe the fact that Brady kept his mouth shut over the next 10-15 years as Smyth continued to abuse more people, many of whom ended up committed suicide. What an absolute scumbag.

That is a different issue.
Brady was not part of "the hierarchy" at the time and did not facilitate Smyth.

Oh he facilitated him alright. He facilitated him by being part of a process whereby victims were sworn to a vow secrecy on the issue. He facilitated him by not reporting his knowledge of the abuse at the time to the authorities. He facilitated him over the next 10-15 years by keeping his mouth shut when he knew Smyth was at large.

Well if I lived in Ireland in 1974 and it came to my attention ( through hearsay since I didnt see it myself) that someone had abused children in Northern Ireland and I went to the Gardai as I pointed out they would not take the statement from me since i had no standing. Nor would they investigate it sine is was outside their juristiction. Nor is it likely would any Republisan/Catholic families report it to the RUC if they actually witnessed it.

Why couldn't he go to the RUC? Was it too much trouble to get on the train up the North, or even just make a phonecall, and save dozens of families having their lives ruined? And don't be talking nonsense about Gardai doing nothing because it was outside their juristiction. I have several relatives in the Gardai, my auld lad was garda for 8 years himself in the 70s, I know how the system works. If you come in with information about a serious crime in another jurisitiction they will see to it that that information gets to the right people. That is a fact. Go in to a garda station tomorrow and tell them you know of a murder in Armagh and who committed it...or you know of a paedophile that has raped dozens of children and is walking around Belfast city centre...

You are posting some absolute nonsense.

Nor if they did report it would there be any way to make Smyth stand trial since due to the lack of criminal juristiction there would be no grounds for arrest in the north and if there were there would be no extradition available.

What in the name of god is this nonsense...Ive dealt with this already above. By the way he was also guilty of raping and abusing children in the south...He ended up getting sentenced to 12 years, for abusing 20 victims over a 35 year period, in a Dublin court. No thanks to Brady of course.

By the way, if the issue had've been Smyth murdering people instead of raping and abusing children, do you think it would have ok for Brady to keep the info to himself over the next 15 years while Smyth was continuing to murder more people? I take it you would have no issue with that, just like you have no issue with him keeping silent on the abuse of children.

Last week Brendan Boland on of the two "boys" involved reached a settlement with Brady.
Given they are happy with that whatelse do you suggest aside from the case of these two boys is relevant where Cardinal/Bishop Brady is concerned?

I doubt they are happy. I imagine they are extremely angry over their abuse. Money doesn't make up for having your life and your families life ruined.

gimme5minutes

Tell me this, if Jesus Christ was in the position of Sean Brady - to have knowledge of a sick twisted freak raping and abusing children up and down the county - do you think he would have followed Brady's course of action and done absolutely nothing and let the freak continue to destroy more families and drive people to suicide?

ISAW

gimme5minutes wrote: »

Anything else?? ...There doesn't need to be anything else, his facilitating in the cover up for Brendan Smyth is enough to mark him as a scumbag.

So that is a no then? Ther isnt anything else?
So we only need deal with the two victims of the Smyth case then and you wont be mentioning anything else.

So what, he could have been charged under assault.

How - by whom? Brady didnt witness the assault. And the gardai had no ability to get someone extradited from norther n Ireland . that is assuming the only people who could institute a criminal case - the parents - wanted to do it and they didnt.

There were also laws covering holding people against their will.

Which ones? UK or Irish?

There were plenty of charges that could have been brought even if there was no specific rape against males law....

Discussed earlier . No there were not plenty. Assuming extradition existed - it didnt- They might have had a long drawn case lasting years and Smyth get off due to delay and legal problems. . In fact that is fairly much what happened

You can be sure it was an offence to assault children in Ireland in 1975, whatever form that assault takes.

Yes but who would be taking the case?
the chiuldren couldnt laws werent made to represent them
THe parents didnt want to. They could not be foprced to
And would it not be better just to provide councilling and give them a million in compensation than waste it on a case wher smyth gets say six months?
And I think there were no registers of child sex offenders either.

Oh, and in any case nevermind that Smyth was abusing girls too.

Aha! well then you cold have got him for rape. But you above say you arent conmcerned with other cases. Now when you have gone down a legal cul de sac you suddenly go looking for another way out.

So what? Are you telling me Brendan Smyth never set foot in Northern Ireland from 1975 on?

Quite the opposite. The boys were in the Republic but Smyth was living in N Ireland.
The Gardai could not extradite because extradition didnt exist until the late eighties.

Well that makes no sense because he 'he fled to the Republic of Ireland' after his arrest in 1991.

Quite. AFTER the Extradition legislation was in place and proceedings began . These things take some time. Eventually a primae facia case arrived with the RUC. But before that tyhe RUC had proceeding instituted in N Ireland. They arrested him and he got bail and fled

Smyth's first conviction followed the reporting to police of his abuse of four siblings in Belfast's Falls Road. So by 1994 he was wanted for extradition TO the north not from it!

Brady should have alerted both the Gardai and the RUC to Smyths abuse. There's no excuse for it.

Maybe yes but Brady was not the guy in charge. He was like a sternographer. He handed the report to this superior and trusted them to do what was legal. Justas a garda might hand on the case to the local Super or DPP. You cant then say 30 years later the Gards who is not a Chief superintendent should nto be promoted to commissioner because his Super or the DPP didnt do something with the syatement he took in 1975 can you?

What kind of scumbag mindset does it take to have information of children being raped and abused, and the abuser still at large, and not to take that information to the authorities...

Buthe did. He gave it to the church authorities. He had no locus standi withy The authorities in the state. He then left the state himself for about 25 years.

to have knowledge that a man as evil as Smyth is at large abusing children but to keep quiet.

Again this was dealt with earlier. Keeping quite as a sternographer might in a family law case is also done to preserve the victims legal position. It is done every day in court. If a sternographer were to speak out outside a court about somne family abuse it might collapse all legal proceedings and harm the victim even more.

Again so what??? Why are you bringing irrelevant nonsense into this? Brady didn't have to take any case...all he had to do was the decent thing, - inform the authorities.

But solicitors and sternographers and doctors are bound by this in in camera cases daily and I dont see you saying those courts should have the press present?

Yet again, so what? More irrelevant nonsense. What difference does it make if he wasnt a bishop or cardinal at the time?

The garda isnt responsible for the Commissioners decision or the DDPs decision of he takes a statement and files the report is he?

If I knew someone was raping and abusing children and my boss/friend/relative etc... told me not to report it for whatever reason I would tell them to go f*** themselves and I would be straight on to the authorities. Just like any decent person would.

If you were a Catholic in Northern Ireland in 1974 you would be likely to go to the RUC? You would be asking B Specials who just burned you out of your home to help some other family who are distraught? .

Oh he facilitated him alright. He facilitated him by being part of a process whereby victims were sworn to a vow secrecy on the issue.

The same applies today in "in camera" cases. Try going into such a court and calling them scumbags and see how far you get.

He facilitated him by not reporting his knowledge of the abuse at the time to the authorities.

To What authorities?
Wher should he have gone? And said what?

Why couldn't he go to the RUC?

Well you were already told how some RUC might view a catholic proest but suppose he did?
RUC: Hello
Brady: I like to report some child abuse
RUC: wher did it happen
Brady: In Dundalk
RUC: Thats Dudalk in the Republic?
Brady: Yes
RUC: You will have to report to them
Brady : Id like to report Child abuse
Garda: I see where is the person who did htis?
Brady: In Belfast?
Garda: In the north?
Brady: yes
Garda:Well we cant do anything about charging him untill he comes south and we cant extradite him but we will take a statement. when did you witness this abuse?
Brady: I didnt.
Garda: Sarry butthat is called herrsay. Who witnessed it?
Brady : Only the children involved
Gards: Okay wel then the parents or guardian will have to bring them in for statements and consent to filing a charge
Brady: Oh they dont want that
Garda: well then I cant do anything about it
Brady: Dont you have systenm or records for tracking these peoplke
Garda: No nor do the UK they wont exist probably for another 30 years
Brady: How about I just give you this persons name he is a priest you know
Gara: well you could give me the name but I cant actually do anything. I could write a persoinal letter to the Super but It would have no weight or bearing in law and I might get blocked for promotion for wasting his time
Brady: Whatshoudl I do then?
Garda: Dont the Church have procedures?
Brady: yes I already followed them and reported the man
Garda: well that that then

Was it too much trouble to get on the train up the North, or even just make a phonecall, and save dozens of families having their lives ruined? And don't be talking nonsense about Gardai doing nothing because it was outside their juristiction. I have several relatives in the Gardai, my auld lad was garda for 8 years himself in the 70s, I know how the system works.

Indeed mine was too for 30 years and served in the special Branch in the 1970s when things were seriously paramilitary so I know too and car bombs in Talboit Street were of more interest to the top guys then.

If you come in with information about a serious crime in another jurisitiction they will see to it that that information gets to the right people. That is a fact. Go in to a garda station tomorrow and tell them you know of a murder in Armagh and who committed it...or you know of a paedophile that has raped dozens of children and is walking around Belfast city centre...

Not in 1974 no it wouldn't.

By the way he was also guilty of raping and abusing children in the south..

See above where you stated you were not interested in these.

By the way, if the issue had've been Smyth murdering people instead of raping and abusing children, do you think it would have ok for Brady to keep the info to himself over the next 15 years while Smyth was continuing to murder more people?

He didnbt keep it he passed it on to the authorities.

I take it you would have no issue with that, just like you have no issue with him keeping silent on the abuse of children.

All incamera courts keep silent on such things. dont blame the sternographer for that.

I doubt they are happy. I imagine they are extremely angry over their abuse. Money doesn't make up for having your life and your families life ruined.

If course it doesnt but wasting the same money on futile cases doesnt either.

gimme5minutes

ISAW wrote: »

....

I dont have time for a ten page quote wars at the moment. So you think Brady could do nothing, fair enough. I think there is plenty he could have done. Smyth was abusing kids north and south of the border for years. He got done for it eventually both sides of the border, no thanks to Brady. And Brady was not a court sternographer, the Catholic church is not a legal body.

Just to clarify one issue as you seem to see absolutely nothing wrong with what Brady did judging by your defensive of his actions -

If Jesus Christ was in the position of Sean Brady - to have knowledge of a sick twisted freak raping and abusing children up and down the county for decades - do you think he would have followed Brady's course of action and done absolutely nothing and let the freak continue to destroy more families and drive people to suicide?

ISAW

gimme5minutes wrote: »

I dont have time for a ten page quote wars at the moment. So you think Brady could do nothing, fair enough.

That isnt the issue! The issue is you think he is a "scumbag" because he didn't do something. I am asking what do you think he should or could have done? And why don't you apply this to the gardai DPP RUC Stormont the Dail The Department of health/education civil service etc. ?

I think there is plenty he could have done.

Fine. WHAT? What could hew have done personally that someone else could not have done?

Smyth was abusing kids north and south of the border for years.

Brady was not aware of that so he could not have done anything about that at the time.

He got done for it eventually both sides of the border, no thanks to Brady. And Brady was not a court sternographer, the Catholic church is not a legal body.

Brady was effectively the sternographer of the canonical court. He wrote words down from an ionterview between victims and another priest. He took no part in that interview himself. In the second case he asked the questions himself and wrote down the replies. AS far as I know his expertise was in canon law.

Just to clarify one issue as you seem to see absolutely nothing wrong with what Brady did judging by your defensive of his actions -

sorry thisisn't about me judging Brady. It is about you making claims and supporting them. My personal opinion isnt part of it. Im only here to ask questions to clarify what you claim happened and you can write down what you claim yourself. Im not her to defend any wrongdoing.

If Jesus Christ was in the position of Sean Brady - to have knowledge of a sick twisted freak raping and abusing children up and down the county for decades - do you think he would have followed Brady's course of action and done absolutely nothing and let the freak continue to destroy more families and drive people to suicide?

And your evidence that Brady "knew Smyth was involved in abuse up and down the country for years" is? All we know is Brady took two statements. He didnt know if Smyth was innocent or guilty. He didnt mention the statements to anyone else and passed them on to his superiours. About a year later he left for Rome and remained there for decades. He dint have any contact with Smyth or the Norbertines and came back to Ireland long after Smyth was dead. So you evidence he knew about other abuse cases by Smyth is????

ISAW

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65018973&postcount=365
They conclude "It would seem unlikely that prosecutions in relation to institutional failures from that same time period would have a realistic prospect of success."
Murphy Report covers 1975 - 2004 . we are here talking about something Brady did in 1977.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65019470&postcount=370
His responsibility OF BEING A BISHOP. exactly my point. Why should he resign his job AS BISHOP?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65032187&postcount=483
One does not re commit the same sin by not admitting it in public! If i commit adultery and confess it and later become a banker and solve the national debt crises and later I decide to publicl admit was an adulterer do you think these are grounds for my being fired as national debt manager?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65021557&postcount=404
You are the one who asked why he didn't report a crime. Your have been given several possibilities as to why maybe he didn't. You can;t conclude the only reason he didn't was he wanted to protect the orginisation!
You can't say the Bishop of Armagh at the time is the one responsible when you are claiming that Fr Brady a priest in Armagh at the time is responsible. The issue we are discussion here is not wherer someone was responsible but whether Brady was responsible.If someone else was responsible as you claim then Brady clearly wasn't!

408
As per 2002 agreement between the victims on one side and the Catholic brothers and Irish government on other side, all those who accepted the state/Brothers settlements, had to waive their right to sue both the church and the government. Their abusers' identities are also kept secret.

See how legal rights to damages crept in there?

the point again as I stated is that MOST institutional abuse was of boys according to that report.

Given rape of boys didn't exist then that therefore means that most institutional abusers
will never face the sentences they would face today.

gimme5minutes

ISAW wrote: »

And your evidence that Brady "knew Smyth was involved in abuse up and down the country for years" is? All we know is Brady took two statements. He didnt know if Smyth was innocent or guilty. He didnt mention the statements to anyone else and passed them on to his superiours. About a year later he left for Rome and remained there for decades. He dint have any contact with Smyth or the Norbertines and came back to Ireland long after Smyth was dead. So you evidence he knew about other abuse cases by Smyth is????

Come off it, the hierarchy knew exactly the situation with Brendan Smyth. 'He didnt know if Smyth was innnocent or guilty'...lmao, the church knew for decades before 1975 that Smyth was abusing children. You are talking absolute waffle like some Fianna Fail supporters on the politics forum trying to defend the indefensible. Brady was a higher flyer in the church and well in with the hierarchy, of course he would have been aware of what the most notorious priest in Ireland's (the worlds?) history was up to, even more so considering his involvment in getting victims to take a vow of secrecy. You must think we are all fools if you expect us to believe that Brady wouldn't have been aware of the actions of this infamous priest.

And you dodged answering the question for a second time so I will ask it again -

If Jesus Christ was in the position of Sean Brady - to have knowledge of a sick twisted freak raping and abusing children up and down the county for decades - do you think he would have followed Brady's course of action and done absolutely nothing and let the freak continue to destroy more families and drive people to suicide?

marienbad

ISAW, if you can't see that Brady's actions were wrong that I must conclude you are blind to any rational discussion in your defence of the church.

All the points you are making in your last few replies about what could have, should have, might have, did'nt happen, would'nt happen , could'nt happen , are all irrelevant because they are all after the fact. Simple as.

How the parents , the authorities, the system, etc etc behaved are separate issues and we can discuss them if you like, but there are not central to this issue.

Brady was made aware of serious sexual offences, now he had a choice, a moral choice , to make it known or to keep silent.

He failed the test and we know the consequences. If he had made the right choice would things have turned out differently ? Who knows but again that is a separate issue.

That is why people are so dis-illusioned with the church and its apologists ISAW. You can list your statistics all your like but you are only preaching to your own choir. What are the stats on the number of priests that knew of Smyth's Greene's Fortune's etc etc behaviour year after year and choose to turn a blind eye. The perpetrators are sick men but all the others that stood by, what is their excuse ? That is the real crime.

Doc Farrell

gimme5minutes wrote: »

Come off it, the hierarchy knew exactly the situation with Brendan Smyth. 'He didnt know if Smyth was innnocent or guilty'...lmao, the church knew for decades before 1975 that Smyth was abusing children. You are talking absolute waffle like some Fianna Fail supporters on the politics forum trying to defend the indefensible. Brady was a higher flyer in the church and well in with the hierarchy, of course he would have been aware of what the most notorious priest in Ireland's (the worlds?) history was up to, even more so considering his involvment in getting victims to take a vow of secrecy. You must think we are all fools if you expect us to believe that Brady wouldn't have been aware of the actions of this infamous priest.

And you dodged answering the question for a second time so I will ask it again -

If Jesus Christ was in the position of Sean Brady - to have knowledge of a sick twisted freak raping and abusing children up and down the county for decades - do you think he would have followed Brady's course of action and done absolutely nothing and let the freak continue to destroy more families and drive people to suicide?

We would hope that Jesus would rip the priestly collars off the predators and perverts who masqueraded as clergy and drag them to the gardai.

The failure of the hierarchy and it's canon law to protect children from criminals is the worst failure of the Catholic church in many centuries.

The intentions of the church to protect itself and to show mercy to rapists instead of to children has undermined the very foundations, the purpose of the church.

As I mentioned in a previous post no priest who believes in the Resurrection could harm a child.

So the church reaps what was sown. The rage of ordinary Irish people remains. The hypocrisy of priests and bishops speaking on sexual issues and justice issues while failing to root out these anti-Christs is absolute.

This quote is from St. Vincent de Paul -
You must ask God to give you power to fight against the sin of pride which is your greatest enemy, the root of all that is evil and the failure of all that is good.

Pride has destroyed the authority of the church. I personally know dozens of adult men who as teenagers were 'interfered with' by a Christian brother. He was thrown out in the mid eighties, and eventually committed suicide.

He should never have become a brother, along with many hundreds of others, but the power of the church was so strong, the Pride in its institutions like granite, that fighting against that power was futile. That's why so many politicians still have the adolescent Rage towards the purple cloaks. (Not that I have any sympathy for politicians!)

This rage will last another twenty years, until many of the victims and criminals are old or dead. The church will never regain that bullying moral authority.

But the church does have a chance to help others still. Around the world many hundreds of millions of believers are waiting in hope.

The current Pope is a wonderful, decent man. But he is old. His mission, to rid the church of the 'filth' is essential, of the priests who are mesmerized by power, narcissism, authority, pride.

My own personal view may be wrong, I'm genuinely not sure, but I think the answer lies in allowing parish priests to marry. This would fill the seminaries with fine men who, as fathers, would root out and destroy child molestors from within their own ranks. It's difficult to know.

Most intelligent people I know have never bowed down to the golden calf of materialism. But their faith, like mine over the last twenty years, is badly shaken. We need a miracle.

ISAW

gimme5minutes wrote: »

Come off it, the hierarchy knew exactly the situation with Brendan Smyth. 'He didnt know if Smyth was innnocent or guilty'...lmao, the church knew for decades before 1975 that Smyth was abusing children.

Answer the question! You claimed Brady "knew Smyth was involved in abuse up and down the country for years". wher is your evidence of this?
ANY evidence?

Now when presses you claim someone else knew. why is it you make claims which yousay are sufficient and all that are needed and then when pressed on them you hop off onto other new claims not related at all to supporting the original claim which was "all that was needed"?

You are talking absolute waffle like some Fianna Fail supporters on the politics forum trying to defend the indefensible.

Oh now it is a personal attack on me and trying to drag in Fianna Fáil as well. I suppose FF also were involved in a conspiracy with the Pope? Why don't you try supporting the claim you made instead of trying to co opt guilt by association and other similar fallacies? Wher is your evidence Brady "knew Smyth was involved in abuse up and down the country for years"? You haven't got any have you?

Brady was a higher flyer in the church and well in with the hierarchy, of course he would have been aware of what the most notorious priest in Ireland's (the worlds?) history was up to, even more so considering his involvment in getting victims to take a vow of secrecy.

Yup! No evidence so you resort to claiming a sternographer must be involved in a conspiracy.

He was a teacher in St PAtricks college Cavan until 1980. He taught a variety of subjects including Latin, Commerce, Religion, and French, as well as training college football teams at all age levels. While he was teaching at the school, in 1975, he was requested to take the statements. Hardly a high flyer at the time. Yes he had a doctorate but he was not a bishop.

You must think we are all fools if you expect us to believe that Brady wouldn't have been aware of the actions of this infamous priest.

Well that is called conjecture and "shifting the burden" You are the one claiming Brady was aware. I am the one asking where your evidence is? where is it?

[qupte]
And you dodged answering the question for a second time so I will ask it again -

If Jesus Christ was in the position of Sean Brady - to have knowledge of... [/QUOTE]

The questions begins with the above statement. You have not shown the above statement to be true . You have provided no evidence. Put it this way if Brady was the bishop or head of the order over Smyth and had certain knowledge of abuse for example had actually walked in and caught him he should have acted immediately laicised the priest got people to always be in his company ( this was not known even to non church authorities at the time) and ( supposing there was a law covering it) delivered the priest directly to a police station. But I am not aware of any bishop anywhere having personally witnessed such abuse by clerics. Are you?
So what would you do if you were a bishop? Ask someone to take a victims statement? Mind you delivering him to a police station might not be what the victims family wants so maybe that would be a problem as the case might collapse.

ISAW

marienbad wrote: »

ISAW, if you can't see that Brady's actions were wrong that I must conclude you are blind to any rational discussion in your defence of the church.

That isnt the issue. The issue was it is claimed he is a "scumbag" who should not be cardinal. I am asking why. What do you think he should have done?

All the points you are making in your last few replies about what could have, should have, might have, did'nt happen, would'nt happen , could'nt happen , are all irrelevant because they are all after the fact. Simple as.

Exactly! So whatare you suggesting that Brady didn't do thathe could have done which is a reason for him not being a Cardinal?

How the parents , the authorities, the system, etc etc behaved are separate issues and we can discuss them if you like, but there are not central to this issue.

They are since it is suggested he had locus standi! he didnt!

Brady was made aware of serious sexual offences, now he had a choice, a moral choice , to make it known or to keep silent.

He made it known. that was his actual job. To record the statement and make it known to the bishop of his diocese. That is what he did! A court recorder also takes the statements of sexual abuse. they cant then go outside and say "you will never guess what I was recording today"? Well they can but
1. They would be breaking the law
2. They might well destroy and prosecution

Number 2 here is a central reason why such things were kepot secret.
For example in the case of a cleric making sexual advances during confession -crimen solicatatis John L. Allen, Jr. has said the secrecy was aimed rather at the protection of all involved, the accused, the victim/denouncer and the witnesses, before the verdict was passed, and for free finding of facts."It allows witnesses to speak freely, accused priests to protect their good name until guilt is established, and victims to come forward who don’t want publicity. Such secrecy is also not unique to sex abuse. It applies, for example, to the appointment of bishops." http://nationalcatholicreporter.org/word/word0815.htm

He failed the test and we know the consequences. If he had made the right choice would things have turned out differently ? Who knows but again that is a separate issue.

Ironically you begin by suggesting "what could have, should have, might have, did'nt happen, would'nt happen , could'nt happen , are all irrelevant because they are all after the fact." but you then conclude a "could have" might have been different. Please try applying your own standards to your own arguments.

That is why people are so dis-illusioned with the church and its apologists ISAW. You can list your statistics all your like but you are only preaching to your own choir.

What I am doing is nothing to do with ME! What I am doing is asking those making claims to support them with evidence and not "sure we all know that..." conjecture which assumes guilt! On such kangaroo court justice do lynchings and indeed crucifixions happen.

What are the stats on the number of priests that knew of Smyth's Greene's Fortune's etc etc behaviour year after year and choose to turn a blind eye.

Don't know. I have produced some evidence from carious reports which would suggest that maybe five to ten of a thousand bishops involved in Ireland (thats about 1% of those in authority) had some knowledge af at least one case. I would reckoin when it came to Smyth opr Fortune who are now infamous that the numbers who knew drops to about one or two bishops in each case. For example in Smyth's case his order head and the bishop of the diocese.

The perpetrators are sick men but all the others that stood by, what is their excuse ? That is the real crime.

Indeed they are responsible to a degree. I never denied that. But they didnt cover up or meet to cover up and they represent about a percent of the hirearchy. If an army has two bad generals you don't condemn the whole Army.