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The Clerical Child Abuse Thread (merged)
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Past failings are past failings that only path open is reform and acknowledgement of these failings.
Todays church has changed. The facts state that. Not 1 case reported of abuse in the last 10 years.
Problem is that the failure to follow church rules occurred within the last 10 years which you keep claiming is a "problem solved" period.
As can be seen from the case quoted, there are still problems which need to be addressed because some within the church prefer to turn a blind eye rather than tackle the problem.0 -
There are already rumours of widespread abuse in 3rd world countries, where victims are too frightened / too easilt intimidated / too easily bought off / too poor / too badly educated etc to speak out and be heard.joseph brand wrote: »Perhaps in 10 years we will have news reports of tens of thousands, maybe even millions of kids raped in third world countries by priests.
Here in Ireland what other group comprises less than 00.1% of the population yet is still responsible for 5% ( at least ) of "Irish children who are sexually abused"? ( that statistic is according to the website of the Child Safeguarding and Protection Service of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin, no less ).0 -
There are already rumours of widespread abuse in 3rd world countries.joseph brand wrote: »Perhaps in 10 years we will have news reports of tens of thousands, maybe even millions of kids raped in third world countries by priests.
Rumours like those reported on primtime investigates?0 -
RTE are not great when it comes to doing anything ( except playing the angelus free on charge at prime time twice a day).Rumours like those reported on primtime investigates?
"The Philippines Catholic Church has apologised for sexual abuse by hundreds of its priests over the last 20 years."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2116154.stm0 -
although the SAVI report states 5.8% of child abusers are religous ministers and religous teachers/brothers ) :
That is a clear lie! You just keep posting this. You know the 5.8% does not apply to all child abuse or even to all those claiming to have been abused in SAVI.
The 5.8% stat is anomolous
It does not apply to children but to only males up to the age of eighteen.
It does not apply to clerics but also to non clerics.Do you doubt the written word as publicised by the Archdiocese of Dublin ?
I have no problem in challenging the Archdiocese the Pope or anyone else if they defy reason. I have never challenged the "5% of victims in Ireland" figure anywhere. About 4-5% of victims in the period 1920 -1980 is a figure thstseems to be confirmed by various sources. But it is a red herring. The 1% figure is the percentage of abusers at the height of abuse in institutions.0 -
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Yet another misunderstanding I suggest since you are ascribing a post to someone who did not write it.
What are the statistics which I have misquoted by the way?
Fair enough
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76138064&postcount=2795
Which you wrote in reply to :
What % of Irish children were abused by Catholic Priests in the last 10 years ?
What are your statistics to support "the sexual crimes of priests over the recent past"[ten years]?0 -
RTE are not great when it comes to doing anything ( except playing the angelus free on charge at prime time twice a day).
"The Philippines Catholic Church has apologised for sexual abuse by hundreds of its priests over the last 20 years."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2116154.stm
A while ago gigino was only interested in Ireland and abuse by RC priests in Ireland. Now it seems he is interested in other countries where he has already been shown higher levels of clerical abuse by non RC clerics and a hundred times more by non clerics.
gigino hops from one misquoted statistic to another every time he has to support himself.
You also misquote the source since it refers not to pedophile sex abuse but "sexual misconduct"
- including , homosexuality and affairs with adults. Similar had happened in Ireland to Catholics and Protestants alike and it is a wholly different thing to child sexual abuse.0 -
Another poster seemed curious about clerical abuse in 3rd world countries but lets return to Ireland so. Please answer the question : "Here in Ireland what other group comprises less than 00.1% of the population yet is still responsible for 5% ( at least ) of "Irish children who are sexually abused"? ( that statistic is according to the website of the Child Safeguarding and Protection Service of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin, no less ). "A while ago gigino was only interested in Ireland and abuse by RC priests in Ireland.0 -
Another poster seemed curious about clerical abuse in 3rd world countries but lets return to Ireland so. Please answer the question : "Here in Ireland what other group comprises less than 00.1% of the population yet is still responsible for 5% ( at least ) of "Irish children who are sexually abused"? ( that statistic is according to the website of the Child Safeguarding and Protection Service of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin, no less ). "
This is again a lie and distortion of statistics.
First of all when the abuse was at the highest level, you have been show and you admitted[/b[ that RC priests were not then 0.01% of the population but much higher. You yourself admitted seven times higher.
Second while churchmen at the highest point in their history were responsible for 5% of victims 9 i.e. not responsible for 95%) this includes older teenagers up to eighteen. It is also true it seems that most of the sexual abuse was homosexual
and on older teens and not pedophile.
The source you provide is not the church but a newspaper article by the irish Times which they reproduce. Saying that a reference is a primary source and claiming their authority on it is academic dishonesty. Again I have to complain.0 -
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Problem is that the failure to follow church rules occurred within the last 10 years which you keep claiming is a "problem solved" period.
As can be seen from the case quoted, there are still problems which need to be addressed because some within the church prefer to turn a blind eye rather than tackle the problem.
Thats rubbish! Are you claiming Fr Donnacha Mac Carthaigh is a child abuser that has abused children in the past ten years or at any time for that matter?
I expect you will just shut up or put up. If you can't produce evidence then stop suggesting he is and shut up about it.0 -
Thats rubbish! Are you claiming Fr Donnacha Mac Carthaigh is a child abuser that has abused children in the past ten years or at any time for that matter?
I expect you will just shut up or put up. If you can't produce evidence then stop suggesting he is and shut up about it.
I never mentioned "Fr Donnacha Mac Carthaigh" and suggest you not comment on individual cases like that either.0 -
And you posted something again you might not be able to support
I am able to support the simple fact I stated ( BBC announcing the following ) as it was on the BBC website :
"The Philippines Catholic Church has apologised for sexual abuse by hundreds of its priests over the last 20 years."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/2116154.stm0 -
I do not think I ever said " seven times" higher as in the number of Priests say 10 years ago was seven times higher than now. No it was not.You yourself admitted seven times higher.
There are two facts here. First fact : Its written on the official website of the Child Safeguarding and Protection Service of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin that 5% of abused children are abused by clerics.
( some - if not most - people would think it way more than 5% but lets take the admitted figure , which is used in the present tense. : are, not were ).
Second fact : RC clerics account for well less that a tenth of one percent of the population. ( well less than 00.1% ).
Again, what other group comprises less than 00.1% of the population yet is still responsible for 5% ( at least ) of "Irish children who are sexually abused"?0 -
I never mentioned "Fr Donnacha Mac Carthaigh" and suggest you not comment on individual cases like that either.
Unless you are sock puppeting as Zorbas my post refers to this
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76147759&postcount=2816
And I suggest that he either produces evidence or desists from defamation.0 -
I am able to support the simple fact I stated ( BBC announcing the following ) as it was on the BBC website :
"The Philippines Catholic Church has apologised for sexual abuse by hundreds of its priests over the last 20 years."
This is about sexual abuse of adults. This discussion is concerned with sexual abuse of young ( pre pubescent) children in particular but has also sidelined ( usually by you) into the older homosexiual abuse of teenagers by male priests. It also involves physical abuse and comparison with non clerical or non Roman Catholic abuse. I'm primarily concerned with the "sexual/pre pubescent" discussion. The so called pedophile.0 -
I do not think I ever said " seven times" higher as in the number of Priests say 10 years ago was seven times higher than now. No it was not.
You went into a big lecture on rounding decimals with your point one ( 0.1%) and point 6 ( 0.66%)
If you round 0.66 you get 0.7 which is seven times greater than 0.1 isn't it?There are two facts here. First fact : Its written on the official website of the Child Safeguarding and Protection Service of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin that 5% of abused children are abused by clerics.
It isn't their report! It is in a news archive on their site! If they carry a news report on the death of Christopher Hitchens which mentions his personal views does that mean they are atheist?( some - if not most - people would think it way more than 5% but lets take the admitted figure , which is used in the present tense. : are, not were ).
Which people would think that? Please don't try the "some people say" argument with me.
I would think 4 to 5 per cent isn't in error because I have actually read the available evidence and not lifted out a headline from a news report.Second fact : RC clerics account for well less that a tenth of one percent of the population. ( well less than 00.1% ).
Based on what evidence? In what epoch? Again it isnt a fact if you dont produce the evidence. And you will no doubt produce evidence that I supplied you with. You cant even do your own research! But no matter on what is your 0.1% based?Again, what other group comprises less than 00.1% of the population yet is still responsible for 5% ( at least ) of "Irish children who are sexually abused"?
You havent established RC priests are responsible for 5% of children who are sexually abused. All you did was quote a newspaper. On what is it based? When you go and find the facts you will note it refers to the historic total so yout []who are[/b] is entirely wrong. But to answer the question there is available evidence that "family members" or "babysitters" comprise maybe 20% or 60% of the abusers of "Irish children who were sexually abused"
But you are laboring on a point I have already accepoted . It does provide statistical evidence that the average number of victims of clerical abuse is higher. the same is true historically for all authority figures. Teachers, coaches , babysitters etc.0 -
Actually if you bothered to read the link the 200 Priests which the RC church has apologised for in the Philipines were involved in ( according to the president of the Catholic Bishops Conference, Archbishop Orlando Quevedo )"sexual misconduct - including child abuse, homosexuality and affairs ."This is about sexual abuse of adults.
Anyway the point was the Priests on the missions is another debate, maybe a new thread should be started on that if you want, as there is no room on this thread for them.0 -
But where do you get the assumption there was 7 times more RC Priests in Irelans ten years ago compared to today ? And even if there was, so what. We are dealing with 2 statements quoted in the present tense .....not 30 or 300 hundred years ago.You went into a big lecture on rounding decimals with your point one ( 0.1%) and point 6 ( 0.66%)
If you round 0.66 you get 0.7 which is seven times greater than 0.1 isn't it?
The site is the official Roman Catholic website on child abuse in Ireland so we can assume everything written on the site has passed clearance the RC authorities, and the RC authorities do not disagree with it.It isn't their report! It is in a news archive on their site!
"Five per cent of all Irish children who are sexually abused are harmed by clerics" ( http://www.cps.dublindiocese.ie/article_287.shtml )
Even you seem to agree with it
You say "I would think 4 to 5 per cent isn't in error a news report".Based on what evidence? In what epoch? Again it isnt a fact if you dont produce the evidence. And you will no doubt produce evidence that I supplied you with. You cant even do your own research! But no matter on what is your 0.1% based?
I already told you numerous times. Its not rocket science. To get the number of priests in the country, you find out how many there are. The population of the country is available from census figures. Its not rocket science to work out RC priests are well less than 00.1% of the population.You havent established RC priests are responsible for 5% of children who are sexually abused. All you did was quote a newspaper.
Acytually its written in black + white on the official RC website which deals with child abuse. Many people would think it higher but thats whats on its website anyway.
You mention babysitters......I would say that more a lot more people have worked as babysitters than work as Priests ?
There are just over 3000 priests in the country. Almost every family with children would get a babysitter from time to time. There must have been hundreds of thousands of people who work as babysitters. How many families would get a priest to babysit a boy ?
Again, what other group comprises less than 00.1% of the population yet is still responsible for 5% ( at least ) of "Irish children who are sexually abused"?0 -
But where do you get the assumption there was 7 times more RC Priests in Irelans ten years ago compared to today ?
I never did! Where did I claim that?
You are the 0.66 person! Remember?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76125056&postcount=2735closer to two-thirds of a tenth of a percent ie 00.066 % rather than 00.1%, but I'll be generous and round it up 50% to a tenth of a per cent for you
you then use a SAVi report with no statistical confidence which lists six clerical abusers of males up to the age of eighteen who were.
SAVI does not say RC priests did this abuse.
It does not say the abuse was of pre pubescent children ie. pedophile
It did not even check if the abuse was done to Irish people or whether it was done in Ireland.The site is the official Roman Catholic website on child abuse in Ireland so we can assume everything written on the site has passed clearance the RC authorities, and the RC authorities do not disagree with it.
That isnt true at all.
It is listing news stories on the issue that is all.
If something is accepted by a bishop it is given a nihil obstat or an imprimatur.
But as I have stated I don't think the 5% figure for this statistic is widely inaccurate. I would have thought 4% would be closer the mark.You say "I would think 4 to 5 per cent isn't in error a news report".
Yes. But it has nothing to do with less than one per cent of abusers when abuse was at its height being priests. Even the questionable SAVI stats support that.I already told you numerous times. Its not rocket science. To get the number of priests in the country, you find out how many there are. The population of the country is available from census figures.
And yet you continually fail to provide a source to the figure which you claim is easy to get?Its not rocket science to work out RC priests are well less than 00.1% of the population.
So? Care to show us how you worked it out?You mention babysitters......I would say that more a lot more people have worked as babysitters than work as Priests ?
You would? Based on what evidence ?There are just over 3000 priests in the country. Almost every family with children would get a babysitter from time to time.
And your evidence for that is?There must have been hundreds of thousands of people who work as babysitters. How many families would get a priest to babysit a boy ?
Maybe the ones where the priest is the father and his wife is out?0 -
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I never did! Where did I claim that?
You are the 0.66 person! Remember?
You are totally incorrect there yet again : the percentage I referred to is 00.066%, not 0.66 ! Not very good at percentages, are you ?
I calculated ( with links originally ) that the number of RC Priests in the state is "closer to two-thirds of a tenth of a percent ie 00.066 % rather than 00.1%, but I'll be generous and round it up 50% to a tenth of a per cent for you".
I provided the source for calculating the above figures. Go back and look it up if you forget.
Now, assuming what is written on the official RC dublin diocesan website is true - "Five per cent of all Irish children who are sexually abused are harmed by clerics" ( http://www.cps.dublindiocese.ie/article_287.shtml )
- have you come across any other group which comprises less than 00.1% of the population responsible for "five per cent of all Irish children who are sexually abused" ?0 -
The problem is solved. No Irish priest has abused children in the last 10 years. etc etc
What evidence have you got of that?0 -
The problem is solved. No Irish priest has abused children in the last 10 years. etc etc
What evidence have you got of that?
What evidence have you got that shows the opposite?
At home in the parish there is a child protection group that helps the parish and the priest make sure that all children are protected. There is no contact with kids without adults present...
So since there has been no abuse cases reported in the last 10 years... What facts you you to show that abuse has taken place...
If you know of any abuse why not show it here on this forum??? You can't becuase there has been no abuse reported0 -
What evidence have you got that shows the opposite?
At home in the parish there is a child protection group that helps the parish and the priest make sure that all children are protected. There is no contact with kids without adults present...
So since there has been no abuse cases reported in the last 10 years... What facts you you to show that abuse has taken place...
If you know of any abuse why not show it here on this forum??? You can't becuase there has been no abuse reported
Problem here is that you use the non-existence of evidence as proof positive that there is no abuse- Do you feel that that the lack of evidence is conclusive or is your belief in the absolutes the problem?
Reports today of the link between suicide and child sexual abuse where estimated 1 in 5 suicides are linked to abuse. Imagine the fact that the church believe that suicide is a sin and at the same time the cause in some cases of that sin. How many people who have never publicised their abuse, including that by priests, will take that sad solution in the future or have taken that terrible decisio over the past 10 years?
I think this claim on this thread that the problem of child rape has been solved in the Catholic church should be shelved until time has passed to know if there is good reason / evidence to believe that it has.
Meantime the church is evidently facing up to the problem more and more but there are too many of those who turned a blind eye at best or were themselves involved at worst and who are still in leading positions in the church.0 -
You are totally incorrect there yet again : the percentage I referred to is 00.066%, not 0.66 ! Not very good at percentages, are you ?
Quite clearly i refer to your point six six of a percent!
Unlike you to assist in clarification -I gave an actual reference to the first use of it by you.I calculated ( with links originally )
With what links? To what stats?that the number of RC Priests in the state is "closer to two-thirds of a tenth of a percent ie 00.066 % rather than 00.1%, but I'll be generous and round it up 50% to a tenth of a per cent for you".
I provided the source for calculating the above figures. Go back and look it up if you forget.
LOL! You can't even fiond your original source.
Go look up "burden of evidence" ! it isnt for me to look up your references. It is fopr you to provide them, And whn you do Ill bet I can sho that you cut and pasted the source from me or someone else. You don't even do your own research.
You claimed it was easy to produce the figures butyou cant do it! You can't even show what you claim to be your own sources!Now, assuming what is written on the official RC dublin diocesan website is true - "Five per cent of all Irish children who are sexually abused are harmed by clerics" ( http://www.cps.dublindiocese.ie/article_287.shtml )
Which isnt from the Diocese but the Irish Times in 2008 and refers to a time before then and saysFive per cent of all Irish children who are sexually abused are harmed by clerics. However, 75 per cent of children who are sexually abused are violated by members of their own family, or by trusted adults known to them in their daily lives. Facing this is our real challenge now.- have you come across any other group which comprises less than 00.1% of the population responsible for "five per cent of all Irish children who are sexually abused" ?
Why yes! I posted them only a few pages back. Organised crime or pedophile rings constitute less than 0.1% of the population and only in the last few weeks an international rign ( involving Zero Catholic Priests) was broken. Don't you remember
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76048352&postcount=2593
670 suspects and that 230 abused children in 30 countries
One Spaniard who worked at summer youth camps is suspected of abusing some 100 children over five years
In Britain, police said, the children involved were aged between 7 and 14.
"So far in 22 countries we have identified 269 suspects with 112 arrests," Europol director Rob Wainwright said at a press conference at the agency's headquarters in The Hague.
How many of these were Roman Catholic priests? Or clerics of any kind?
670 people is much much less than 0.1% of the population of Ireland let alone that oif the EU.
Her is another group of 0.1% - sex offenders http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76082151&postcount=2628
On page 29 you will note about 1,500 sexual offences every year Thats 15,000 in ten years. None of them priests as far as I know.
Rapists also probably constitute a few percentAccording to a news report on BBC One presented in 12 November 2007, there were 85,000 women raped in the UK in the previous year, equating to about 230 cases every day
According to that report one of every 200 women in the UK was raped in 2006. The report also showed that only 800 persons were convicted in rape crimes that same year.
http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs08/hosb0308.pdf
And I also posted this:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=73110169&postcount=1280
And how about
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72582313&postcount=382In the spring of 2002, when the sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic Church
was receiving unprecedented attention, the Christian Science Monitor
reported on the results of national surveys by Christian Ministry Resources.
The conclusion: "Despite headlines focusing on the priest pedophile problem
in the Roman Catholic Church, most American churches being hit with child
sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant, and most of the alleged abusers are
not clergy or staff, but church volunteers."
Mark Clayton, "Sex Abuse Spans Spectrum of Churches," Christian Science
Monitor, April 5, 2002, p. 1
In the authoritative work by Penn State professor Philip Jenkins, Pedophiles
and Priests, it was determined that between .2 and 1.7 percent of priests
are pedophiles. The figure among the Protestant clergy ranges between 2 and
3 percent.
Philip Jenkins, Pedophiles and Priests (New York: Oxford University Press),
pp. 50 and 81.
Rabbi Arthur Gross Schaefer is a professor of law and ethics at Loyola
Marymount University. It is his belief that sexual abuse among rabbis
approximates that found among the Protestant clergy. According to one
study, 73 percent of women rabbis report instances of sexual harassment.
"Sadly," Rabbi Schaefer concludes, "our community's reactions up to this
point have been often based on keeping things quiet in an attempt to do
'damage control.' Fear of lawsuits and bad publicity have dictated an
atmosphere of hushed voices and outrage against those who dare to break
ranks by speaking out."
Rabbi Arthur Gross Schaefer, "Rabbi Sexual Misconduct: Crying Out for a
Communal Response," www.rrc.edu/journal, November 24, 2003.
A review in 2006 of child pornography laws in 184 countries by the
International Centre for Missing & Exploited Children (ICMEC) and other
organizations including software giant Microsoft shows that more than half
have no laws that address child pornography
^ "Child Pornography Not a Crime in Most Countries" (pdf). International
Centre for Missing & Exploited Children. 2006.
http://www.icmec.org/en_X1/pdf/Summe...6formatted.pdf.
I suggest you read this some noew references for you
It hasen't to my knowledge been posted here before.
but im certain you will ignore the points made in it. Unless of course you cut and paste out of context.
http://www.jimhopper.com/abstats/0 -
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Problem here is that you use the non-existence of evidence as proof positive that there is no abuse-
No problem is that you assume one can have proof positive of a negative
Look up "proving a negative" would you?
The onus of the burden is on the positive claim i.e. On those who claim abuse and not on the counter negative claim!
If you are retracting the cliim say so. If not it is clearly unsupported and in asking someone to prove the negative you may as well be asking them to prove it was not unicorns poixies or the FSM.Do you feel that that the lack of evidence is conclusive or is your belief in the absolutes the problem?
You are entirely ignorant of the logical fallacy you just committed in asking that are you?Reports today of the link between suicide and child sexual abuse where estimated 1 in 5 suicides are linked to abuse.
Which reports? And look up "red herring" while you are looking up fallacies.
The fact that people may commit suicide primarily because of sexual abuse as a child ( 99% of abusers at that time not being priests) is a different issue as to whether priests currently sexually abuser kids.
I think this claim on this thread that the problem of child rape has been solved in the Catholic church should be shelved until time has passed to know if there is good reason / evidence to believe that it has.
So thats a "no " then? You have no evidence it has happened in the last ten years?
Or you just can't honestly admit you have no evidence?
Do yo remember the "X files" . Muslder had a picture of a flying saucer on his wall with "I want to believe" writen under it. You seem to want to believe ther is widespread clerical child sex abuse. There isn't and There never was! Most (95% plus ) of the abuse was committed by non priests. And most of the abusers (99% plus) were not priests.Meantime the church is evidently facing up to the problem more and more but there are too many of those who turned a blind eye at best or were themselves involved at worst and who are still in leading positions in the church.
Like whom? Whom do you say are leading positions ion the church who failed to make decisions about that problem when they were in charge? Of about 100,000 bishops ovcer the last 100 years Ill bet you will struggle to name ten. Now even 1% of them would be a thousand.0 -
Strange that those whose belief is reliant on faith continually go on about evidence. Appears that they have no thoughts of their own or are so lacking in confidence that they can not express an opinion but can only express themselves in inverted commas or through the statements of others.
Statistics have been proven false on many occassions and are not the be all and end all of a discussion.
ISAW - "Whom do you say are leading positions ion the church who failed to make decisions about that problem when they were in charge? Of about 100,000 bishops ovcer the last 100 years Ill bet you will struggle to name ten. Now even 1% of them would be a thousand."
Why can you not express yourself in a normal conversational way instead of all the goblegook you come up with. To answer your question above:
Lets take the head of the church as an example: Cardinal Brady has himself acknowledged his failures in dealing with child abuse and was central to the financial settlement with a victim of child abuse he swore to secrecy in 1075.0 -
Strange that those whose belief is reliant on faith continually go on about evidence. Appears that they have no thoughts of their own or are so lacking in confidence that they can not express an opinion but can only express themselves in inverted commas or through the statements of others.
If your purpose on this thread is to troll... Well you are doing a good job.
My only purpose posting here is to highlight that the church has changed, we are not all abusers or people who turn a blind eye to abuse.
Supporting my argument i have stated that there has not been one single abuse case reported in Ireland in the last 10 years, abuse commited in the last 10 years.
Mosy important are the victims of all this... They were the ones who suffered the most. Christs message was about love. And many priests failed to act like real priests..
If you want to ignore the facts about current church practises, thats your choice... But your posts show no base in reality, just person bias against the facts.0 -
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Nobody said all priests were abusers. Far from it. But some were.My only purpose posting here is to highlight that the church has changed, we are not all abusers or people who turn a blind eye to abuse.
"Six reports published by the Catholic Church in Ireland have revealed there were child abuse allegations against 85 priests across the dioceses." http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-15960621
"BishopAccountability.org has a database of 3,000 names of accused priests and said roughly a third are linked to Ireland, which is reeling from revelations of a decades-long coverup of abuse in the Dublin Archdiocese"
http://www.rickross.com/reference/clergy/clergy1068.html0
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