Death and why Life is longer than you think

Goduznt Xzst

It's something that doesn't really get discussed a lot over here, which I find odd. Over in the V&V forum they talk about the nutrients they will be missing from not eating meat and dairy products and how to replace them with alternatives.

Well, it would seem to me that the comfort of eternal existence is a pretty big psychological nutrient that as A&A's we don't have.

I want to open up this topic for discussion, but due to the macabre nature of it I expect it won't be brimming with replies (would loved to be wrong)

I think this should change though.

Here's my 2c anyway.

Was reading this blog today about how this secular parent is preparing his children for the reality of death. My sentiments would mirror it and I already have similar notions as to how I should go about introducing my children when I have them to the reality of existence.

One of the biggest things for me is just how long life is. People tend to go on about how life is short. It isn't. I'm mid to late 20's now and it has taken me a heck of a long time to get here.

When people express that life is short what I really think they mean is that their life is uneventful and repetitive. If asked to remember what happened last year I'd probably name about 10 events that stood out, that make up around 1/5th of the year. The rest was work, eating, maintenance and the repeating of tasks. If asked what happened a decade ago, the number of events I could remember vividly would be less.

So when you are looking back on your life when you are 60 or 80 what you actually remember of your life is very short. You probably only vividly remember about a year of memories, the big moments in your life, so in retrospect that 1 year of memories seems terribly short.

The great thing about the age we live in though (something even the last generation didn't have) is the ease at which we can record and log our existence, through text, video and pictures.

The drawback of this is that nobody wants to log the mundane. I think without the carrot of eternal life the onus is on ourselves and the people we raise to make as many big moments in our and their lives to look back on when our existence is coming to an end.

I'm making a big change in my life later this year, and I plan to do this at least every few years without let up. As I tell people this I consistently hear "Wow, I wish I could do that"... there is nothing stopping them, just motivation and a lack of perspective regarding their existence. When I look back on my life I'm not going to say "I'm so glad I spent so many years of my life comfortable and content", I'm going to remember the trials I overcame and the challenges I met head-on.

Death is a reality, to motivate myself I have a countdown timer online ticking down to when I will turn 70. I don't expect to be dead at 70 but I think when you give people a definite time limit they act without procrastination. My family also has a history of heart problems so I accept the chances of having complications with mine later in life cannot be ignored (the amount of people I meet that don't know the medical history of both sides of their genetic lineage is staggering)

So that's it, my questions to yous would be:

1. How will you prepare you children for the realities of existence?
2. How do you personally view life and death?
3. How important is your death to you or do you tend to try to ignore it?
4. Accepting the coming deaths of loved ones, how has this impacted on your relationships with them?

Blackhorse Slim

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

So that's it, my questions to yous would be:

1. How will you prepare you children for the realities of existence?
2. How do you personally view life and death?
3. How important is your death to you or do you tend to try to ignore it?
4. Accepting the coming deaths of loved ones, how has this impacted on your relationships with them?

1 A good breakfast is a good start.
2 Life is here and now.
3 I find the concept of my death fascinating, I hope I am awake, conscious and at peace when it happens.
4 It hasn't.

I guess my answers may not be very helpful.

iUseVi

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

1. How will you prepare you children for the realities of existence?
2. How do you personally view life and death?
3. How important is your death to you or do you tend to try to ignore it?
4. Accepting the coming deaths of loved ones, how has this impacted on your relationships with them?

I only have a small amount of time so can only give short answers, but might get the ball rolling:

1) Don't have children, will cross this bridge when/if I come to it.

2) Death is the loss of a pattern. This may sound like I'm belittling it but not at all. Patterns are the most precious things to me. Someones brain and pattern of thought is entirely unique, and without getting into multiple universes will never be seen again. Viewed in this light the loss of any unique, complicated pattern is a sad thing. And of course the patterns I love the most are my friends and family. I don't want them to disappear but I know they will someday. I don't know how I will deal with this when it happens. I have been fortunate in this area, I have not had any close friends/relative die in my life time. Shocking I know but then I am young and medicine is marvelous these days. Both my grandfathers were died shortly after I was born but I don't remember either of them.

3) I'm not scared of dying, for I am pretty sure there is no afterlife. What I am scared of is the process of dying; be that because of the pain, or because of being uncomfortable at old age and suffering that way. But the pain/discomfort is the only thing I fear, actually being dead does not bother me (I won't be around to be bothered).

4) As mentioned in 2), I have not had much experience with death.

Goduznt Xzst

Blackhorse Slim wrote: »

I guess my answers may not be very helpful.

Not at all. Your responses will be pretty much par for the course I'd imagine. Short and succinct. Discussions about death tend to be treated like taking off a band-aid, get them over with as quickly as possible.

We've been raised to not think about death or talk about it so that big fuzzy question mark that is the end of our lives has happily been filled with the treasures and rewards of organized religion.

We seem all to preoccupied with curing the symptoms of organized Religion rather than concentrating on what causes it.

Something else that I've found curious is the reaction of my friends that are parents when I bring up how they will explain death to them. It is a look of shock and repulsion, like A) Their child will never die or They will never die.

It is quite similar to parents who get repulsed at the idea of teaching their child about prophylactics and contraceptives, as if they can't imagine that their child will ever have a need for this knowledge.

PeterIanStaker

I dont need the concept of a god or catechism to live a good life. I know that when I die I will cease to exist. I have not existed for the billions of years prior to my birth, so in one way I find that thought comforting.

Daftendirekt

Great post.


1. I think it's a good approach to take to teach your kids that death is just another part of life (the end, to be specific). If you teach them that death is only the beginning of your next life, what happens if they eventually lose that belief? You won't have taught them how to cope with death, just to deny it.


2. For a while, I kind of struggled with the idea that one day, myself and everyone I've ever loved will simply cease to exist, and that in the long run, everything we do is pretty much an exercise in distracting ourselves from the fact that we don't have any significant place or purpose in the universe. But gradually, I kind of came to realise that maybe that isn't so bad after all.

If our only ultimate purpose in life is merely to keep ourselves amused in whatever way we see fit, isn't that enough? In the grand scheme of things, maybe it doesn't matter, but it sure as hell matters to me here and now.

On the flip side of that, there's a certain comfort to be taken from the fact that no matter how badly you screw things up in this life, it doesn't really make any make any difference at the end of the day. So we should make as much noise as we can while we're here, since the destination's the same no matter what.


3. Well, kind of related to my second answer, it's not particularly 'important' as such (although it does hold a certain morbid fascination for me at times), but once I can keep things in perspective, a healthy attitude to death can help nurture a healthy attitude to life.


4. I tend to be painfully aware of the mortality of my loved ones. While the idea of my own death doesn't particularly frighten me, the idea of losing someone close to me scares the hell out of me. I don't let this have any impact on my relationships, but I do keep in mind how precious the little time we have together is.

Gregor Samsa

Good post, and good questions.

First up, I kinda disagree with this notion:

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Well, it would seem to me that the comfort of eternal existence is a pretty big psychological nutrient that as A&A's we don't have.

While I understand what you're saying, I certainly don't feel that I'm missing out on anything by not believing in an afterlife. So it's not really like a vegi missing out on iron or protein in their diet, as they are verifiable nutritious necessities - more like them thinking that they're missing out on not consuming the dead animal's courage, or something nonsensical like that.

Anyway, my answers:

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

1. How will you prepare you children for the realities of existence?
2. How do you personally view life and death?
3. How important is your death to you or do you tend to try to ignore it?
4. Accepting the coming deaths of loved ones, how has this impacted on your relationships with them?

1. My daughter is one, so I'm just starting to think about this. I'm hoping to be honest and say that life ends, but that when it does, you don't exist to worry about it. So death is a tragedy for those left behind only, but it serves to make each day of our lives, and all the things we do and can do with them, all the more meaningful. I'll explain that we miss people when they die, and it can really hurt, but that our memories of them can be a huge comfort. Hopefully I won't cave and say "Scamper's gone to heaven" when the cat dies

2. I see life as the enabler of potential, and death as the final cessation of that potential.

3. Death isn't all that important to me, in that I don't really fear it as such. I'm comfortable with ceasing to exist. However, the only thing that does worry be about death is leaving my wife and child without a husband/father - for all the obvious emotional and financial reasons. So I suppose it has become more of an issue for me since we knew my daughter was on the way.

4. My mother died the year before last, after an illness. She died more suddenly than I expected - after a matter of weeks, where as I thought she'd have a year or so. Had I known she would go sooner, I certainly would have seen her more (I live on the other side of the country, and my wife was pregnant at the time), but I don't think her impending death, or my knowledge of it, changed our relationship all that much. She was my inspirational mam right up until she died holding my hand, and nothing, not even death, changed that. Incidentally, she came to reject he belief in an afterlife in the years before he death, and told my brother a few weeks before that she was comfortable with the notion of dying. The day she died, she was in so much physical discomfort that it was a relief (or sorts) when she went. But she was so happy to have myself, my brother my dad and her sisters by her side that I took a lot of comfort from the fact that I think she was ready to die, even in the full knowledge that there wasn't any afterlife.

Canis Lupus

Blackhorse Slim wrote: »

1 A good breakfast is a good start.
2 Life is here and now.
3 I find the concept of my death fascinating, I hope I am awake, conscious and at peace when it happens.
4 It hasn't.

I guess my answers may not be very helpful.

What he said if plagerism is allowed :P

I do like your shaking it up thought. I've just come to the conlusion myself that I'm 28(29 in a month) and I've nothing particularly useful or interesting with my life so I'm leaving the ratrace and heading to Asia to travel and to settle in for a while.

I am amazed by the number of friends that show envy and yet are too scared to do it themselves. Luckily I have a great mate who just went "cool, I'll come" and that was all it took to decide

Anyway back on track I don't really ponder your questions much. I'm happy to accept I exist ( I leave the "why" to greater minds than mine) and hopefully in a good few years that'll stop but it's the journey I hope to enjoy and that I make my own mark on this world through friends and family (and by taking over the world).

Ickle Magoo

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

My sentiments would mirror it and I already have similar notions as to how I should go about introducing my children when I have them to the reality of existence.

My kids were taught the reality of life and death during a very simple incident when one of their friends stood on a snail. They knew the word "death" and had a basic medical definition of what death was but in that instant they understood what it meant to stop living.

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

So that's it, my questions to yous would be:

How will you prepare you children for the realities of existence?

I'm not sure you can prepare them. You give them the basic tools to discover their own realities and support them and answer any questions along the way.

How do you personally view life and death?

I just view death as the end of life. A finite journey that ends when my heart stops pumping blood to my brain.

How important is your death to you or do you tend to try to ignore it?

Well, it's going to be a fairly important event to me! I think about it quite a bit - it's a good motivator for doing as much as I can, while I can. I have dreams about dying, too. I had one really vivid dream when I saw the kids grown up and I took my last breath and then I woke up because I was holding my breath! It was really cool. I'm actually looking forward to seeing if there is anything going to happen after life, not that I'm in any rush!

Accepting the coming deaths of loved ones, how has this impacted on your relationships with them?

The last person to die in my family threw a party to say goodbye and we all had good discussion about death and dying which was very interesting. We don't like the thought that we'll inevitably loose more family members but we've vowed to give everyone a good send off...we are a pragmatic lot.

Flamed Diving

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

1. How will you prepare you children for the realities of existence?
2. How do you personally view life and death?
3. How important is your death to you or do you tend to try to ignore it?
4. Accepting the coming deaths of loved ones, how has this impacted on your relationships with them?

1) I won't try to do anything to manipulate them. Why would they want to know about this stuff when they have far more interest playing games? In time, they will want to know and I will give them my view. That's it.

2) I feel honoured to be living in the Western World in 2010. I couldn't have drawn a better card. I aim to make the most of it, though I am likely to fail. Death will come no matter how I view it. I accept that.

3) I often think about it. Sometimes it makes me appreciate the present, sometimes I don't see the point. I think of number 2)* when that happens.

4) More so as parents get older and more frail. My mother was always a devout Catholic, but the liberal kind. My Dad I always thought was agnostic or maybe a deist but the closer he gets, the more Christian he becomes. I reckon he is just scared and wants some reassurance. He recently asked me what I believed so I told him that I agnostic and he started acting as if he was worried for me, quoting the odd passage from the Bible to me. I pretended to listen and secretly decided to avoid this conversation, in future. So yeah, it has affected one relationship.










*No poop jokes.

Goduznt Xzst

Thanks for your responses

phutyle wrote: »

While I understand what you're saying, I certainly don't feel that I'm missing out on anything by not believing in an afterlife.

Well, psychologically you are missing out on something. A religious believer holds that they will continue to exist forever, and they believe this whole heartedly. This may be akin to the blissful delirium of a drunkard, but nevertheless, he is still in a state of blissful delirium and you are not.

Society tends to default to the notion of there being some form of afterlife which is why death is only dealt with when it happens. People live in the present and concern themselves with their health now, or their relationships now, rather than having a perspective that it could all change in an instant with a death or planning for their health in the future and how to go about maintaining it.

This works for the Religious because they don't believe the person has actually died. Any closure they need they can hope can be resolved in the afterlife.

We don't have this, and, assuming most of us where raised by Religious parents* we also haven't been primed to discuss Death in any manner that is deeper than merely a surface acknowledgement of it.

* I know some weren't, I'd actually be interested to hear how these non-Religious parents broached the subject of Death with those here who where raised without religion.

Ickle Magoo

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

* I know some weren't, I'd actually be interested to hear how these non-Religious parents broached the subject of Death with those here who where raised without religion.

My parents gave what has become known in our family folklore as the "some people" speech. "Some people think we go to heaven, some people think we are born again, some people think...."

Gregor Samsa

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Well, psychologically you are missing out on something. A religious believer holds that they will continue to exist forever, and they believe this wholeheartedly. This may be akin to the blissful delirium of a drunkard, but nevertheless, he is still in a state of blissful delirium and you are not.

Yeah, but the true religious believer* lives in the very real fear that that eternal existence could be in Hell, being raped by hot pokers or worse, not being in the presence of God :eek:.

It's not all guaranteed sunshine and lollipops for them. So, on balance, we're doing alright with, well, nothing.

My grandfather, despite being a devout Catholic and one of the most decent, honest, kind men anyone who knew him ever met, was in genuine, cringing fear of Hell on his deathbed. I wasn't there, but it was heartbreaking for his family to see.


*I suppose we're de facto talking about Abrahamic monotheists here.

pwd

1. Be honest and let them make their own minds up - some to terms with things in their own way.
2. Just inevitable truths. I think that thinking yourside of oneself is a way to overcome fear of your own demise, without ignoring it.
3. What I do before it is what is important. I'm quite aware of time passing, and that there is a limit on it. I'm not frightened of my own death in an abstract sense.
4. It makes me feel concerned about them.

CerebralCortex

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

One of the biggest things for me is just how long life is. People tend to go on about how life is short. It isn't. I'm mid to late 20's now and it has taken me a heck of a long time to get here.

I can't agree with that at all, life is pathetically short and life of vitality even shorter. As you said you are in your late to mid 20's, it's probably the last decade of your life where the damage your metabolism causes to your body is adequately cleaned up by the useless repair mechanisms inherited through evolution.

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

The great thing about the age we live in though (something even the last generation didn't have) is the ease at which we can record and log our existence, through text, video and pictures.

The drawback of this is that nobody wants to log the mundane. I think without the carrot of eternal life the onus is on ourselves and the people we raise to make as many big moments in our and their lives to look back on when our existence is coming to an end.

Again I can't agree with that, I think the onus is to stay alive!

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

1. How will you prepare you children for the realities of existence?
2. How do you personally view life and death?
3. How important is your death to you or do you tend to try to ignore it?
4. Accepting the coming deaths of loved ones, how has this impacted on your relationships with them?

1. I don't want to have children as I think it's cruel and unethical to be involved in the creation of an intelligent being/conciousness that finds out it is doomed to die because it inhabits an inadequate substrate i.e. the human body.

2. Life is precious I'll do everything I can to hold onto it and to help others do so aswell, death is something to be resisted.

3. I don't accept or look forward to it if that's what you mean?

4. There's that word acceptance, just because you accept death it doesn't make it any less cruel.

“I don't want to achieve immortality through my work. I want to achieve it through not dying.” - Woody Allen.

Vomit

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

1. How will you prepare you children for the realities of existence?
2. How do you personally view life and death?
3. How important is your death to you or do you tend to try to ignore it?
4. Accepting the coming deaths of loved ones, how has this impacted on your relationships with them?

1) I don't want kids, but I think as long as you are a strong parent and role model, kids will accept what you tell them. Kids don't fully understand these kinds of things anyway, but if they see you going about your life and being happy, they will be happy too.

2) We are only temporary parts of this world. My consciousness is no more or less important than that of another life form, or even that of the inevitable self aware computer we will one day build. We are basically machines...there's no good reason to exist or not exist. Had my father been somebody else, I would be too... but would I even be 'me'? We are all made of the same stuff anyway!

3) Totally ignore it. I'll try and look good until the day I die, and when I do, I don't wanna see it coming! I'd rather have my life sliced away sharply than have it painfully fade away. When I'm dead I'll won't be able to feel bad about being dead.

4) Can't answer this one

8kvscdpglqnyr4

Some great questions there! I'll do my best to answer.

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

1. How will you prepare you children for the realities of existence?
2. How do you personally view life and death?
3. How important is your death to you or do you tend to try to ignore it?
4. Accepting the coming deaths of loved ones, how has this impacted on your relationships with them?

1. I don't have any children yet ... someday hopefully. If/when I do have children, I will tell them that when a person close to them dies, that person lives on in my mind, your mind and everbodies mind who loved them. Everytime you think of them, you remember the good times, the bad times and how much you enjoyed being with them. Nobody can take that away from you.

2. I think life for me is fantastic and I count myself so lucky to be born in the time/place I was born and also to be born into the fantastic family I was born into. I often think if I was born 50 years ago or born in a 3rd world country, the odds are; I would be dead now!

3. My death isn't really important to me ... I want to go on living for as long as I can.

4. In the past year, the inevitable death of my parents has really hit home (both my parents are in their early 60's). I try to get home one day every week just to say hello to them and help out however possible.

Goduznt Xzst

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I think the onus is to stay alive!

Well I think the onus is to feel alive, not just to be alive.

If given the chance of going on a once in a lifetime adventure through jungles and mountains, where perilous danger awaits you at every turn are you telling me you'd turn it down to sit at home, watching TV knowing you are safe and comfortable and the hospital is only a 10 minute drive away?

CerebralCortex wrote: »

1. I don't want to have children as I think it's cruel and unethical to be involved in the creation of an intelligent being/conciousness that finds out it is doomed to die because it inhabits an inadequate substrate i.e. the human body.

I don't know how old you are, but this opinion may change. I know I felt like that in my early to mid 20's and only in the last few years have I come around to thinking that having and raising a child is an experience in life I don't want to miss out on.

Plus, what is the point of gaining all my knowledge and wisdom if there is nobody to pass it on to.

I can also expect to outlive my parents, and that my friends will age equally with me, so when I get old enough to require assistance I will have my children to care for me. I can't expect that anyone other than my children would want to or would be able to.

Zamboni

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

So that's it, my questions to yous would be:

1. How will you prepare you children for the realities of existence?
2. How do you personally view life and death?
3. How important is your death to you or do you tend to try to ignore it?
4. Accepting the coming deaths of loved ones, how has this impacted on your relationships with them?

1. Tell them the truth. Truth is better than a comforting lie in my opinion.
2. Life is awesome and death sucks.
3. I can't ignore death for more than a day. It's always there lingering around. I would do everything anything I can to avoid it.
4. I can accept the death of loved ones. However they seem to find it hard to accept my view of death. A lukewarm Catholic I know almost broke down recently when they realised that I genuinely do not believe in an afterlife. I think the sheer thought of no afterlife terrified them to the very core. They were quite upset and its not a topic I fancy bringing up with them again.

CerebralCortex

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Well I think the onus is to feel alive, not just to be alive.

You can't do one without the other.

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

If given the chance of going on a once in a lifetime adventure through jungles and mountains, where perilous danger awaits you at every turn are you telling me you'd turn it down to sit at home, watching TV knowing you are safe and comfortable and the hospital is only a 10 minute drive away?

Wha?

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

I don't know how old you are, but this opinion may change. I know I felt like that in my early to mid 20's and only in the last few years have I come around to thinking that having and raising a child is an experience in life I don't want to miss out on.

Doesn't make it any less unethical. In fact creating a being knowing it will die, by bringing it into an environment where every other entity with the same type of body has died, is pretty much murder.

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Plus, what is the point of gaining all my knowledge and wisdom if there is nobody to pass it on to.

I know death is depressing.

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

I can also expect to outlive my parents, and that my friends will age equally with me, so when I get old enough to require assistance I will have my children to care for me. I can't expect that anyone other than my children would want to or would be able to.

So having a child is a completely selfish act and as I've said before unethical. I don't know how many times I've heard "but who will look after you when you're older" and it's infuriating. It's just a perpetual master/slave scenario and it's profoundly cruel.

Ickle Magoo

CerebralCortex wrote: »

In fact creating a being knowing it will die, by bringing it into an environment where every other entity with the same type of body has died, is pretty much murder.

And not giving a being a chance to ever experience life is what? Noble? Caring? Unselfish?!

I think you'll find murder is an unlawful killing of someone or ending someone's life intentionally, it's not "pretty much" giving someone the opportunity to experience the wonders of living, knowing that one day they will, inevitably, die.

CerebralCortex

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

And not giving a being a chance to ever experience life is what? Noble? Caring? Unselfish?!

Ya I'm confused too, how you could give something that doesn't exist a chance? Seriously, if it doesn't exist there's nothing you can do it, that includes giving it chance. There is not an ethical issue, I can't hurt something that doesn't exist. You would first have to deliberately choose that you want to have child and pick an arbitrary point in time where you would conceive it and then decide not to... ...one word ridiculous. It's not like there is some master plan where a soul or being is queued up waiting to come into existence unless you believe there is? Are you honestly saying by me not choosing to have a child, that I'm behaving selfishly? Really?!?! What a reckless thing to say considering all the thousands of children that die each day because someone was unselfish enough to have one. Please give me a break!

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I think you'll find murder is an unlawful killing of someone or ending someone's life intentionally, it's not "pretty much" giving someone the opportunity to experience the wonders of living, knowing that one day they will, inevitably, die.

I guess you've been able to reconcile life being wonderful with the cruelty of involuntary death. I don't, I can't. Maybe perhaps you've also learned to cope with the loss of ability that comes with the process that at the moment will inevitably kill us.

Gregor Samsa

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Doesn't make it any less unethical. In fact creating a being knowing it will die, by bringing it into an environment where every other entity with the same type of body has died, is pretty much murder.

While I've always had a soft spot for the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement, and of course I do have a daughter (that was planned, and then some), I don't see how you can equate the simple knowledge of the inevitability of death with murder, or even make the claim that reproducing is inherently unethical based on that inevitability.

Death is just natural by-product of life. It's not a bad thing, or a good thing, it's just an immutable fact. It's what you do with the time before it that you can debate the ethics of.

Also, having just dedicated the last 14 months of sleepless nights to the raising of said child, with the prospect of 17 more years to go, I can assure you it is not something for the selfish to consider.

CerebralCortex

phutyle wrote: »

While I've always had a soft spot for the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement, and of course I do have a daughter (that was planned, and then some), I don't see how you can equate the simple knowledge of the inevitability of death with murder, or even make the claim that reproducing is inherently unethical based on that inevitability.

I'm not a member of said movement I assure you and congratulations on you daughter. Look at it like this I don't want to die, if I could choose to be born into a world I would choose one where I wouldn't or at least had the choice. The reality is I had no choice but my parents did. They had no more clue why they were bringing me into this world other than it's the done thing and speaking from experience there was no deep philosophical thought involved just the chemical reaction we call love.

phutyle wrote: »

Death is just natural by-product of life.

Of a biological system designed to be good a procreating.

phutyle wrote: »

It's not a bad thing,

Oh yes it is, I don't want to do it or at least have some other process choose for me.

phutyle wrote: »

or a good thing, it's just an immutable fact.

Not true, just unsolved as of yet.

phutyle wrote: »

Also, having just dedicated the last 14 months of sleepless nights to the raising of said child, with the prospect of 17 more years to go, I can assure you it is not something for the selfish to consider.

Wow! I love the mental acrobatics!

Ickle Magoo

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Ya I'm confused too, how you could give something that doesn't exist a chance? Seriously, if it doesn't exist there's nothing you can do it, that includes giving it chance. There is not an ethical issue, I can't hurt something that doesn't exist. You would first have to deliberately choose that you want to have child and pick an arbitrary point in time where you would conceive it and then decide not to... ...one word ridiculous. It's not like there is some master plan where a soul or being is queued up waiting to come into existence unless you believe there is? Are you honestly saying by me not choosing to have a child, that I'm behaving selfishly? Really?!?! What a reckless thing to say considering all the thousands of children that die each day because someone was unselfish enough to have one. Please give me a break!

It's more the not giving something the chance to exist being viewed as saving them somehow that's a bit twisted. How does you not having kids make any kind of positive difference to the kids already here & suffering? I don't see the link.

I'm not saying you're being selfish, I think not having kids and claiming the moral high ground is a complete cop out. Not ever having kids is not being unselfish, or noble - it's just not doing anything, neither good nor bad.

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I guess you've been able to reconcile life being wonderful with the cruelty of involuntary death. I don't, I can't. Maybe perhaps you've also learned to cope with the loss of ability that comes with the process that at the moment will inevitably kill us.

Life always throws cruelty around, some of which has been thrown in my direction - I'm still glad I'm here to suffer it tho. Given the (albeit a bit strange) hypothetical choice between living in a cruel world and never having existed, I know what wins every time. I don't understand why you think you not creating beings is somehow doing them a favour...

Gregor Samsa

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Wow! I love the mental acrobatics!

Ah, now, don't tell me you don't recognise a facetious comment when you see one... I stuck a smiley at the end and everything...

CerebralCortex

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

It's more the not giving something the chance to exist being viewed as saving them somehow that's a bit twisted.

I agree. Never said I was trying do anything to that which doesn't exist that would be insanity.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

How does you not having kids make any kind of positive difference to the kids already here & suffering? I don't see the link.

I just don't agree with people's belief in their inalienable right to create a conscious being without realising the involuntary suffering and death they are also giving to them which in my opinion overshadows the joy of life, perhaps I'm twisted in that sense.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I'm not saying you're being selfish, I think not having kids and claiming the moral high ground is a complete cop out. Not ever having kids is not being unselfish, or noble - it's just not doing anything, neither good nor bad.

Yes therefore noneone suffers whereas someone does otherwise.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Life always throws cruelty around, some of which has been thrown in my direction - I'm still glad I'm here to suffer it tho.

I can agree with that I suppose. Until involuntary death is stopped and I mean by the process of aging then I'd rather not have children, and if it is voluntary then I personally have no desire for children but who knows ask me in 500 years

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Given the (albeit a bit strange) hypothetical choice between living in a cruel world and never having existed, I know what wins every time.

But you aren't and never were given the choice.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I don't understand why you think you not creating beings is somehow doing them a favour...

Maybe because I don't think that and because it's an illogical misrepresentation of my position. I can't do what doesn't exist a favour unless I'm mentally deficient and everybody else can. Am I missing out on some magical process here guys or what? Ultimately we are responsible everything we create but after the fact not before.

CerebralCortex

phutyle wrote: »

Ah, now, don't tell me you don't recognise a facetious comment when you see one... I stuck a smiley at the end and everything...

I apologise, I honestly couldn't tell.

fergalr

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

It's something that doesn't really get discussed a lot over here, which I find odd. Over in the V&V forum they talk about the nutrients they will be missing from not eating meat and dairy products and how to replace them with alternatives.

There's plenty of other ways of getting your nutrients when you don't eat meat. Once you adapt to a different diet, the nutrients aren't hard to get at all - you just get without even thinking about it. The idea that they are 'missing' somehow, just seems weird.
And I think this analogy holds all the way.

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Well, it would seem to me that the comfort of eternal existence is a pretty big psychological nutrient that as A&A's we don't have.

Its like the thing about not eating animals - after adapting to a 'different diet' the question just seems really bizarre at first.

Really, what psychological nutrients do we miss if we don't believe in a god? I understand where you are coming from - I'd have being concerned about that sort of thing at one stage - but over time you realise that the concerns don't materialise.

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

I want to open up this topic for discussion, but due to the macabre nature of it I expect it won't be brimming with replies (would loved to be wrong)

I think this should change though.

Here's my 2c anyway.

Was reading this blog today about how this secular parent is preparing his children for the reality of death. My sentiments would mirror it and I already have similar notions as to how I should go about introducing my children when I have them to the reality of existence.

One of the biggest things for me is just how long life is. People tend to go on about how life is short. It isn't. I'm mid to late 20's now and it has taken me a heck of a long time to get here.

When people express that life is short what I really think they mean is that their life is uneventful and repetitive.

I disagree with you here. I find life very short!

I think I'm fortunate to lead a pretty full life, but there's some many different things I'd like to learn (all of physics, maths, philosophy, literature, biology, art, humanities etc etc) but I can only drink a small fraction of the contents of the well of knowledge before I die. There are so many other people in the world I'd like to communicate with, but I can only talk to a few. So many places to see, I would *love* to see so much of the world, to walk every mountain and forest, but I can spend time in only a handful... and so much of the universe to explore, if we lived 100,000 years and could develop the means to do so...

So, life is short...

Its still fu*king excellent to be able to do any of this, but its short when you'd love to do it all!

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

If asked to remember what happened last year I'd probably name about 10 events that stood out, that make up around 1/5th of the year. The rest was work, eating, maintenance and the repeating of tasks. If asked what happened a decade ago, the number of events I could remember vividly would be less.

So when you are looking back on your life when you are 60 or 80 what you actually remember of your life is very short. You probably only vividly remember about a year of memories, the big moments in your life, so in retrospect that 1 year of memories seems terribly short.

Well, our brains can only retain so much information.
And, in order to function well, so that we can recall and intelligently use the information we do need, we can't store all the non essential stuff.
If when I thought back to 1995, and my brain recalled *every detail* of experience of that year, it'd be pretty hard to organise all that information in such a way as to find the important stuff.
I reckon thats a large part of the reasons we do this.
Even if you live a hyper exciting life, your going to discard the vast vast majority of sensory input, and experience.

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

The great thing about the age we live in though (something even the last generation didn't have) is the ease at which we can record and log our existence, through text, video and pictures.

The drawback of this is that nobody wants to log the mundane. I think without the carrot of eternal life the onus is on ourselves and the people we raise to make as many big moments in our and their lives to look back on when our existence is coming to an end.

Actually, its quite an interesting informational challenge for our civilisation that people do in fact want to log the mundane! How we go about sorting though and categorising the vast quantities of information we log is an interesting question that there's a lot of research going on on.
I'm not sure it solves the problem really though - even if you could log everything, you couldn't spend the time to look back through it all, still only the significant events - and your memory is already a pretty good system for doing that filtering. (Except in the rare case where an event doesn't seem significant at the time, but later is - where were you on march 15th, 2001, at the time of the crime, good sir? - but thats the exception)

Anyway, I don't really agree with the sort of idea that you need to remember or recall the details of your life to know that you have lived it. I know I've existed for a lot longer than the time and experiences that I can remember, and I'm cool with that - its the human condition, and thats how our relationship with time goes. Maybe in future, we can augment ourselves to get around this, alter our processing architecture somehow to cope with the extra information - but at the moment, thats the way it is.

So yes, people make the mistake where they equate the amount of time they can remember with the amount of time they have lived, and this causes them to underestimate the experiential length of their life... but I think even if you don't do that, life is still short! Maybe I'll change my mind and by the time I'm old (if I live that long), I'll have had had enough, and be happy to die and pass out of existence. That would be a big surprise to me though if it happened!

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

I'm making a big change in my life later this year, and I plan to do this at least every few years without let up. As I tell people this I consistently hear "Wow, I wish I could do that"... there is nothing stopping them, just motivation and a lack of perspective regarding their existence. When I look back on my life I'm not going to say "I'm so glad I spent so many years of my life comfortable and content", I'm going to remember the trials I overcame and the challenges I met head-on.

Death is a reality, to motivate myself I have a countdown timer online ticking down to when I will turn 70. I don't expect to be dead at 70 but I think when you give people a definite time limit they act without procrastination.

I agree with a lot of this. Its important not to procrastinate, if you can avoid it and even though I don't think I believe in an existence after death, Memento mori is a really important thought I try keep in my head to force me to use the little time I have wisely.

At the same time, wisely doesn't necessarily mean 'in such a way that I have a lot of change and hence a lot of memories'.
If someone wants to spend their whole life fishing on a beach somewhere, and doing nothing else but eating, sleeping, and taking in the sunshine, sure, their whole life might be a blur, one year not really distinct from the next - but that doesn't meant it was a waste, or anything other than the best way for them to live their life! Maybe they loved every minute of it, enjoyed every bit of that sunshine, and just didn't need to rush from A to B to acomplish some arbitrary set of goals, or just to generate extra distinct memories for the end of their life! You can't take your memories with you when you go, either! :-)

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

My family also has a history of heart problems so I accept the chances of having complications with mine later in life cannot be ignored (the amount of people I meet that don't know the medical history of both sides of their genetic lineage is staggering)

So that's it, my questions to yous would be:

1. How will you prepare you children for the realities of existence?

I don't know - no kids (yet - would like to sometime).
But I would guess I'll be completely honest with them and tell them whatever I can most accurately reason to be the truth. Life is too short, for them, for them to not know the truth of the situation, so they can make up their own mind.

I'd try and shield them from some of the bad stuff in the world, to provide them with a nurturing and happy upbringing, but I wouldn't lie to them about something as fundamental as life and death. I don't see any real need to anyway, these things are pretty abstract as a child, and young children tend to forget the abstract fairly quickly.

And as they grow, and think about these things, I think that if you tell someone the truth (as best you know it), then even if it is harsh, then they can at least have a chance of having happiness while still seeing the world as it is, and not living in a bubble.

If you lie to them, and tell them something you know to be a fantasy, they might be happy, but they are happy in a, well, a prison of the mind in which you have penned them.

The world isn't always nice, but if we actually live in it, rather than in some fantasy version of reality (and I know we always see things not exactly as they are - but some visions of the world are more real than others), and really experience it - and try see it for all its good and bad - then we are actually living, and experiencing, and we can try and make it better, or and live happily in the face of reality.

Why does this make sense?
Well if someone offered me a wonder drug, which would make me feel everything was always wonderful, and keep me in a happy fantasty land, no matter how bad things were around me, I'd turn it down. Same as if I was allowed put my brain forever into a simulated perfect world.

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

How do you personally view life and death?

Life: Awesome.
Death: Final.

I reckon 'life', our existence, is a consequence of the lots of 'random' stuff that happened as the universe is formed, and the fact that you sometimes get complex systems and behaviour forming (emerging) from very simple rules. Once you've got a mechanism like evolution (and probably some other stuff we don't understand (yet!) ) and a very huge universe, then the 'life' thing probably naturally arises sometimes. I mean, its quite rough around the edges, but thats the best theory we have, so thats where it comes from. Minds and consciousness probably arise naturally from such a system (though there are some big questions to be answered here about the mechanisms - is evolution, alone, as we understand it, really *that* powerful, over such a short space of time? We are probably still be missing bits of the explanation).

Death is what we call it when we cease to exist; my computer software 'dies' when I turn off the power.

Currently, for humans, death is probably final.
I expect this not to be the case, in future. (in normal human timescales - like, in the long run, entropy seems fairly final).

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

How important is your death to you or do you tend to try to ignore it?

Very - the knowledge of it keeps me trying to get stuff done (not that this is the only or best way to react, but it works for me).
I wish I didn't have to die so soon though. I'd love to do loads more, experience loads more, learn loads more; but I'm really grateful for what I have, so many people have so desperately little chance at any of these things, in this world we've made.

I don't try and ignore it, but as a human, I ignore most things most of the time, and focus on what I'm doing. I think about death now and again - its good to do so - but I don't dwell on it. I'm curious as to (if I manage to live a long time) whether my attitude towards death will change, and if I'll get tired of life in the end, and be glad of it.

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Accepting the coming deaths of loved ones, how has this impacted on your relationships with them?

Tough question. It makes me sad. At a very human level, its sad when someone you love dies. There's no real way of rationalising out of that, and I don't think we should even try - I think its quite a rational thing.
I think there's a big difference if someone dies and they've managed to do what they wanted to do in life, and if they die with unfinished business, so to speak. Its important to try and get what we need to do, done - tell people the things we need to tell them, act in the way we feel we should act - if a loved one is doing this, and lives a long and (hopefully) happy life, then their death doesn't make me as sad.

Erren Music

1. How will you prepare you children for the realities of existence?

By using reality. No mumbo jumbo just the scientific facts as we know them.

1. How do you personally view life and death?

I'm alive now and it's great fun, I will be dead someday.

1. How important is your death to you or do you tend to try to ignore it?

Not important at all, I will be dead. Why should I worry about something that will happen. We cannot evade it yet.

1. Accepting the coming deaths of loved ones, how has this impacted on your relationships with them?

They are dead, they do not physically exist anymore. They only exist in memory.

Goduznt Xzst

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Wha?

I'm asking you whether staying safe and preserving your life is more important than risking your life for an experience to remember.

CerebralCortex wrote: »

So having a child is a completely selfish act and as I've said before unethical. I don't know how many times I've heard "but who will look after you when you're older" and it's infuriating. It's just a perpetual master/slave scenario and it's profoundly cruel.

All acts are completely selfish. There is no such thing as an unselfish act.

Plus, I don't view it as a master/slave scenario, I view it as "life" and the symbiotic relationships humans hold with those around us. I love both of my parents and fully appreciate the work they have done in sacrificing their time to raise me and give me their support into adulthood. Repaying them by looking after them if they need it through the winter of their lives is the least I could do.

I don't want to have children for the sole purpose that they will look after me when I'm elderly, rather I want to give life to another human so that they can experience it and I know they will probably want to look after me when I am elderly.

Vomit

I'll agree with CerebralCortex on a few things. I wish people would stop squirting out effin babies because they feel society expects it. I also hope a time comes when we'll overcome death itself - when the same (let's say 3 billion) humans can continue to exist for as long as they desire, in their primes, bettering themselves, educating themselves and living! But how likely is that to happen in our lifetime? Who knows... We just have to face the fact that everyone has their time.

Vomit

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

I don't want to have children for the sole purpose that they will look after me when I'm elderly, rather I want to give life to another human so that they can experience it and I know they will probably want to look after me when I am elderly.

But that's like thinking of not having a child as depriving a potential person of an existence. If I never existed, I'd be none the wiser. What's the intrinsic value of existing as opposed to not existing?

fergalr

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Doesn't make it any less unethical. In fact creating a being knowing it will die, by bringing it into an environment where every other entity with the same type of body has died, is pretty much murder.
[...]
So having a child is a completely selfish act and as I've said before unethical. I don't know how many times I've heard "but who will look after you when you're older" and it's infuriating. It's just a perpetual master/slave scenario and it's profoundly cruel.

Hey, CerebralCortex, you seem to be saying that bringing a child into the world, on the basis that the child will eventually die, is a bad thing.

Following on from this logically, would you rather you had never been born? Is that what you are saying?

Because I know I have to die (pretty much certainly, contrary to what others have said. Even if someone 1) finds some way of patterning consciousness, and 2) somehow solves the entropy problem maybe by (sci-fi hats on) tunnelling between universes - even then, with infinite time, and a non zero chance of dying at each time step, I'll still eventually die). But even though I know this, I'm still glad I've been able to live.
I hope it'd be the same with my kids.


Anyway, there's another argument:
The only reason someone would see death as a bad thing is if they want to live, and enjoy life.
And, if they want to live and enjoy life, then presumably they would be happy to have been born, even though they know they must die?


I'm very glad I was brought into this world and given a chance to live.

fergalr

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

All acts are completely selfish. There is no such thing as an unselfish act.

If you PM me your address, I'll post you a bar of chocolate.

I'm completely serious.

Gregor Samsa

fergalr wrote: »

If you PM me your address, I'll post you a bar of chocolate.

I'm completely serious.

In the context of your offer, it could be argued that you're just doing that to prove a point, which would be a selfish act.

fergalr

phutyle wrote: »

In the context of your offer, it could be argued that you're just doing that to prove a point, which would be a selfish act.

Goddamnit, how many bars is this gonna take?

Gregor Samsa

fergalr wrote: »

Goddamnit, how many bars of chocolate is this gonna take?

A lot. And the better be biscuit and raisin Yorkies. PM sent*.

*not really, I'm off chocolate for lent**

**not really either

fergalr

phutyle wrote: »

A lot. And the better be biscuit and raisin Yorkies. PM sent*.

*not really, I'm off chocolate for lent**

**not really either

The thing is, joking aside, I really don't buy into the theory that everything we do is for selfish reasons.


Any time I see someone present this theory, they show huge confirmation bias - they really stretch to explain why a particular act was selfish, and are quite happy to conclude an act has selfish roots, even when the explanation is highly implausible. Maybe a particular act does have selfish roots, but these roots are often unlikely to be the ones the proponent of the theory holds up as an example. Yet the proponent usually manages to convince themselves that they've found the correct explanation.
This should ring alarm bells.

The second thing thats missing is a mechanism - whats causing me to do all these selfish things? In this particular case, why do I (selfishly) care what another poster on the internet thinks about whether all actions are selfish? I wasn't even involved in that part of the thread. But I thought it'd be good to try and do something - at cost to myself - to attempt to show not all actions are selfish.
What do I gain from that? As a rational human, the possible benefit to me of a random internet posters opinion slightly changing is far outweighed by the cost, in time and chocolate, of posting a bar of chocolate. So wheres my selfish motive? And if I do have a selfish motive, that I am genuinely unaware of, then by what mechanism is it acting? Some sort of special selfish part of my brain which my consciousness is shielded from?
But it'd have to be a very sophisticated piece of machinery to manage to fool my consciousness at such a sophisticated level.

I really think that the theory doesn't survive a brush with occams razor; I think its more plausible that the apparently altruistic behaviour that people sometimes exhibit is explained by them simply sometimes performing altruistic actions, rather than some sort of super complicated explanation of selfishness.

Anyway, either way, I'd say the jury is out.

Yes, if you believe people are *completely* selfish (as an article of faith?), you'll find a convoluted explanation as to why every act is selfish.

Surely, it is at best treated an interesting theory which may or may not be true, for which there is little evidence, and which is very hard to examine, rather than as a fact?

Of course, I'd be curious to hear a more detailed explanation of why my offer is *completely selfish* that doesn't strain credulity!

dlofnep

Life is short when you look back on it. I can remember sitting in a buggy with my mam taking me to the local cake shop. I can remember going through school, work, college.

I added a girl I used to work with on facebook the other day and realised that it was almost 10 years ago that I worked with her. Quickest decade of my life. I'm on the wrong side of 20 (27 now), and before you know it - I'm 40, and it's all downhill from there.

Live life to the max!

Ickle Magoo

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I just don't agree with people's belief in their inalienable right to create a conscious being without realising the involuntary suffering and death they are also giving to them which in my opinion overshadows the joy of life, perhaps I'm twisted in that sense.

You think the involuntary suffering and death overshadows the joy of life? Well, that's probably where we differ, right there.

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Yes therefore noneone suffers whereas someone does otherwise.

Or you don't create the person that could have found the cure for cancer or done something fabulous to stop suffering...it doesn't strike me as being a deliberate stand against something, it's just not playing a hand at all.

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I can agree with that I suppose. Until involuntary death is stopped and I mean by the process of aging then I'd rather not have children, and if it is voluntary then I personally have no desire for children but who knows ask me in 500 years

I can understand not wanting to have children, I don't understand the connection between global suffering & death and not wanting kids tho.

CerebralCortex wrote: »

But you aren't and never were given the choice.

Would you rather not have been born? Does the suffering and knowledge of impending death mean there is no point or joy to your life?

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Maybe because I don't think that and because it's an illogical misrepresentation of my position. I can't do what doesn't exist a favour unless I'm mentally deficient and everybody else can. Am I missing out on some magical process here guys or what? Ultimately we are responsible everything we create but after the fact not before.

I'm probably not wording it very well but you sound suspiciously like you think people would be better off if they had never been born since they will ultimately suffer and die, have I got that wrong?

mewso

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

So that's it, my questions to yous would be:

1. How will you prepare you children for the realities of existence?
2. How do you personally view life and death?
3. How important is your death to you or do you tend to try to ignore it?
4. Accepting the coming deaths of loved ones, how has this impacted on your relationships with them?

1. I have no children and I don't know if I ever will. If I do I think I will answer any questions they might have honestly but I won't dwell on it. One memory of youth is that the conept that it would all end some day was completely alien and I think I was better off feeling like I would live forever. It meant you could concentrate on life not death.

2. I do fear death when I think about it at any length. Those nights in bed when you can't sleep but I would fear eternity just as much. I think as someone else said it's the dying not the aftermath that I fear. The possible pain and so on.

As for life well I love it. Like many people I would love to see the world, try different things and so on but I don't want to get too pre-occupied with that either. It's not the be all and end all to do all these things. Sitting in the pub having a lively discussion with friends, scoring a goal on the astro, dinner with the family, reading a good book. All these things can bring joy and I think people get too caught in the "you must make the most of life, see everything" vibe. Just enjoy the bloody thing. If you spend all your life in one place, doing the same job, meeting the same people but at the end can honestly say you were happy most of the time I think thats enough. You didn't need to go on safari or do a bungee jump to be fulfilled. I think it's about experiencing life. Whatever constitues a satisfying experience to you should be enough.

3. I think I successfully ignored death up to 30. I think 30 was the first time it struck me that I was steadily moving toward it. Not that I dwelled on it just that it was the first time I could sense it somewhere down the line. I think it's important not to dwell on it. We do this by concentrating on experiencing life as I said above. Just like another poster a lot of my fears are based on who I leave behind and how they might deal with it but yet again if I'm gone I won't be here to care. I know like all animals we get over tragedy eventually.

4. The folks are in their 60s and it does worry me from time to time but these days theres a very good chance they have 20+ years left anyway so I think it's important to just enjoy life with them while I can. I often wonder if getting married and starting your own family is in some way a protection against the day they do pass on. You will have a new family to confort you and make it easier to deal with. Being a single man of 38 I do sometimes fear that phone call whenever it comes and having to deal with it alone. Not during the funeral etc. but when I go back to my appartment a few days later and have to live with my own thoughts.

2manyconditions

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

So that's it, my questions to yous would be:

1. How will you prepare you children for the realities of existence?
2. How do you personally view life and death?
3. How important is your death to you or do you tend to try to ignore it?
4. Accepting the coming deaths of loved ones, how has this impacted on your relationships with them?

1. I don't have children, but if I did, I certainly wouldn't introduce them to the concept of death until absolutely necessary. Childhood to me means innocence. I would not want to corrupt them to the realities of life/death until required. When I was in primary school, one of my classmates was in an accident and died and I'll never forget that time. It was a reality check - my classmate was there one day and the next day and forever after he wasn't. I wouldn't wish that 'reality' on any child. I was worried my parents would die for a long time after.

2. Of course you have to do routine, you need to get up for work every day to fund all the 7 - 10 exciting things you might remember in your year. You have the routine of eating - to stay alive, of sleeping to rejuvinate. I think the OP doesn't understand the importance of these 'routine' days.

I think life is short, that is a relative term. Waiting for a bus thats 15 mins late feels like hours. But the uncertainity that my life could end at any second, means that to me life is short. It only feels like a few days ago since that snow event for example. In 10 years time I'm not going to remember if it was 2010 or 2011 that this snow storm event, but it might just feel like the other day.

I fear the days leading up to my death, not the actual event itself.

3. I can't ignore it but I can put it off by eating properly and looking left and right before I cross the road. I think about it a bit actually but again its the days leading up to the death and not the death itself. It like I had a dream once of dying only of dying not of the feeling of death since I have no experience of it.

4. Thankfully I can't answer this question.

Great thread btw

MrPudding

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

My parents gave what has become known in our family folklore as the "some people" speech. "Some people think we go to heaven, some people think we are born again, some people think...."

I have had the "some people" speech with my oldest (11) daughter. She says she does not believe in god, but the whole afterlife thing, looking down on your loved ones kind of appeals to her. I have no need to take that away from her.

MrP

Ickle Magoo

MrPudding wrote: »

I have had the "some people" speech with my oldest (11) daughter. She says she does not believe in god, but the whole afterlife thing, looking down on your loved ones kind of appeals to her. I have no need to take that away from her.

MrP

Yeah, we've started with that kind of idea too. Nana believes we go to heaven, daddy believes we are born again...whatever they want to believe happens is what they can choose to believe in.

liamw

"To live in the hearts we leave behind is to never die." - Carl Sagan

I saw this quote in the 'Pale Blue Dot' video. If you haven't seen this watch it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wupToqz1e2g

Goduznt Xzst

liamw wrote: »

"To live in the hearts we leave behind is to never die." - Carl Sagan

I remember reading an interesting idea before on how an individual dies, symbolically, three times.

The first is when our body ceases to function
The second is when our body is put in the grave.
The third is that moment sometime in the future when our name is spoken for the last time.

Zamboni

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

I remember reading an interesting idea before on how an individual dies, symbolically, three times.

The first is when our body ceases to function
The second is when our body is put in the grave.
The third is that moment sometime in the future when our name is spoken for the last time.

That is the most depressing thing I have ever read. Period.

ColmDawson

Zamboni wrote: »

That is the most depressing thing I have ever read. Period.

sxt

Vomit wrote: »

I also hope a time comes when we'll overcome death itself - when the same (let's say 3 billion) humans can continue to exist for as long as they desire, in their primes, bettering themselves, educating themselves and living! But how likely is that to happen in our lifetime? .

It is a very real possible according to Ray Kurzweil . He is 60 and believes he will live forever .

http://transcendentman.com/

fergalr

sxt wrote: »

It is a very real possible according to Ray Kurzweil . He is 60 and believes he will live forever .

http://transcendentman.com/

I think there's a lot of interesting food for thought in some of Kurzweils arguments.
But I really don't buy a lot of his timescale predictions at all.

I'm inclined to believe the general 'singularity' argument, or at least take it seriously, but the graphs and timescale projections he makes are, at best, a whole lot less reliable than he makes them out to be.

I also think that the probability is that at 60 now, he's not going to live forever.
I don't see much chance at all of people making the breakthroughs in understanding brains and technology in the next 10/15 years; at 70/75 your chances of living forever decrease a lot.

If I had to guess, and its a total guess, because the future is so inherently unpredictable, I'd speculate people will start to live vastly longer lives (millenia+) in the next 200/300 years. But equally, we could hit scientific roadblocks, energy crises, wars, etc. Its just so very hard to make predictions with any degree of confidence.