Should state subsidisation of Irish private schools continue?

hooradiation

Glenster wrote: »

Getting a lot of use out of that clipboard you got for Christmas?

If this is your "comeback" then i suggest you just go back into your corner and keep an eye out for more of these communists you see everywhere.

At which time, I'd encourage you to put together another post of the same quality of the one you made earlier, then delete it, set fire your PC and then scatter the remains far and wide.

I think that will be for the betterment of all concerned.

Herb Powell

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

I honest;y think it's just funding elitism. bar 1 person, everyone I've known from private schools was an absolute stuck up prick

spurious

Wherever people on this thread were educated, many seem to have missed the fact that the vast majority of Irish schools, primary and secondary are in fact 'private schools', fee-paying or not.

If this is a discussion about fee-paying schools, the thread title needs to be changed. All the CBS, Mercy, Holy Faith, De la Salle, Marist, Vincention, Sisters of Charity (etc.) schools are 'private' schools, even if funded by the tax payer.

VEC schools and some community colleges are publicly owned.

melekalikimaka

spurious wrote: »

Wherever people on this thread were educated, many seem to have missed the fact that the vast majority of Irish schools, primary and secondary are in fact 'private schools', fee-paying or not.

If this is a discussion about fee-paying schools, the thread title needs to be changed. All the CBS, Mercy, Holy Faith, De la Salle, Marist, Vincention, Sisters of Charity (etc.) schools are 'private' schools, even if funded by the tax payer.

VEC schools and some community colleges are publicly owned.

i think the chip on shoulder brigade are on a roll her with the 'fee paying schools', and to them far more gratifying... i pulled out of this debate a long time ago, first post back on point in many a page

sagat2

spurious wrote: »

If this is a discussion about fee-paying schools, the thread title needs to be changed. All the CBS, Mercy, Holy Faith, De la Salle, Marist, Vincention, Sisters of Charity (etc.) schools are 'private' schools, even if funded by the tax payer.

VEC schools and some community colleges are publicly owned.

All elitist establishments built to keep the honest working man down while pushing the select few "chosen" children to the top of the ladder at the expense of other children. Like factories for creating leaders of the New World Order.

Lets band together and take from the rich so that we may all be poor!

Herb Powell

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

spurious wrote: »

Wherever people on this thread were educated, many seem to have missed the fact that the vast majority of Irish schools, primary and secondary are in fact 'private schools', fee-paying or not.

If this is a discussion about fee-paying schools, the thread title needs to be changed. All the CBS, Mercy, Holy Faith, De la Salle, Marist, Vincention, Sisters of Charity (etc.) schools are 'private' schools, even if funded by the tax payer.

VEC schools and some community colleges are publicly owned.

that's just being pedantic now to be fair

_Bella_

I personally think that the state subsididisation of private schools should continue. The parents of these schools pay their taxes and therefore they deserve the right for their childrens education to be paid for. It is then the parents choice if they would like to pay extra on top of that for the extra facilties. There are a few advantages to going to private schools. I go to a private school and in many sports leagues the private schools are the ones winning the Leinster leagues. In transition year there are far more activities done in private schools. I feel its the parents choice if they want to pay extra for these facilities.

beanyb

_Bella_ wrote: »

In transition year there are far more activities done in private schools. I feel its the parents choice if they want to pay extra for these facilities.

That's not necessarily true. I went to a fee paying school, and to say our transition year was absolute sh*te would be an understatement of the highest order. I know people from local community schools that did far more. And the school that I went to would be very highly regarded.

_Bella_

Hmm I guess it depends on the organisation. I know my school would be doing alot more things then most of the people I know who go to public schools.

I don't know if it's been mentioned yet but there is absolutely no state funding given to primary schools in this country. Now, I am guessing, that if private secondary schools were abolished or made totally unaffordable to most people, then the majority of children in private primary schools would end up back in the state system also. Most people (not all) would not send their child to a private primary school and then to a public secondary school. So if all the children currently in the private primary system were to go back to the state system, surely that would cost the government more money??

Dudess

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

Alicat wrote: »

I went to a private school and loved it. Nice small classes/years. I would've hated to be shoved in with the 300 odd yobbos in my local.

Your local isn't representative of all state schools though.

Glenster wrote: »

Your little angel could end up going to Castleknock community college.

What's wrong with Castleknock Community College?

melekalikimaka wrote: »

chip on shoulder brigade

Please illustrate why people here have a chip on their shoulder? Otherwise such comments just look like "Oh hur hur hur, the peasants are jealous of us!"

themont85

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't know if it's been mentioned yet but there is absolutely no state funding given to primary schools in this country. Now, I am guessing, that if private secondary schools were abolished or made totally unaffordable to most people, then the majority of children in private primary schools would end up back in the state system also. Most people (not all) would not send their child to a private primary school and then to a public secondary school. So if all the children currently in the private primary system were to go back to the state system, surely that would cost the government more money??

There are several private primary schools (knowhere near the level of secondary ones). Off the top of my head I know of Willow Park, St Michaels Junior school, CBC Monkstown Junior school, St Marys Junior, Mount Anville, CBC Cork and a few others. They all have lower enrollments than their secondary schools. The state give 0 to these schools so yes if they all went into the free sector than that would cost the state the complete cost of teaching and capitation. But most of those schools never fill up until their higher claesses and have plenty of unused capacity. They are in effect a small sample of what would happen if we had no support for their secondary equivilents. Although it would be untrue to say that the levels of enrollment would be as low as they are in private junior schools also in secondary ones, parents would look more at it for secondary and exam years.

Coriolanus

Where the issue is 100m that is spent on private schools, everyone should give this spreadsheet a going over.
100m is apparently, a drop in the freaking ocean compared to what the State spends on the education sector.
2008, the last year for which full figures were available saw a wage bill of over 3bn.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=tMqTzNgX93oaCl8K2hbvMUg

As a small aside, kudos to the Dep. Finance who emailed me the spreadsheets within literally hours of re-opening this morning! Obviously not too many sore heads in there after drowning the shamrock.

_Bella_

themont85 wrote: »

There are several private primary schools (knowhere near the level of secondary ones). Off the top of my head I know of Willow Park, St Michaels Junior school, CBC Monkstown Junior school, St Marys Junior, Mount Anville, CBC Cork and a few others. They all have lower enrollments than their secondary schools. The state give 0 to these schools so yes if they all went into the free sector than that would cost the state the complete cost of teaching and capitation. But most of those schools never fill up until their higher claesses and have plenty of unused capacity. They are in effect a small sample of what would happen if we had no support for their secondary equivilents. Although it would be untrue to say that the levels of enrollment would be as low as they are in private junior schools also in secondary ones, parents would look more at it for secondary and exam years.

I went to a private primary school and there were thirty in my class. When I got up to the senior school there was ninety six. The fees were slightly higher than they were for secondary school. My school was full and there was a fairly long waiting list.

themont85

_Bella_ wrote: »

I went to a private primary school and there were thirty in my class. When I got up to the senior school there was ninety six. The fees were slightly higher than they were for secondary school. My school was full and there was a fairly long waiting list.

Similar situation in my school, except it was 30 by 6th class with parents trying to secure a place in the senior school. Junior infants was about 15.

ProperDeadly

Rebelheart wrote: »

As for "better education", Coláiste Eoin and Coláiste Iosagáin, two public schools albeit with a 17-year waiting list, provide an education far better than the one provided by the religious of Blackrock or Belvedere, and all their notions to mimic Eton and Harrow at one-sixth of the cost (Harrow fees: c. £28,000; Eton fees: c. £28,000: Blackrock: c. €5,500). The cultural world of Blackrock and Belvedere (and the rest of them) is so blatantly playing to a power dynamic of the 19th century where the British Empire and British sports like rugby were there to be mimicked.

Moreover, fee-paying schools in Ireland truly are a case of parents with notions not having the financial muscle to support those notions without these huge subventions from the Irish state. That is the true irony of all the posters who are screaming "jealousy" - would they have got a private school education if it cost their parents €30,000 per annum as is the case in the elite British fee-paying schools (which receive no state subvention)?

Highly unlikely. A bit more honesty here, please.

Is a better education purely measured by Leaving Cert results and/or % of pupils who go to college?

No , they wouldn't have gone to private schools, they would be in state schools, where the state would have to pay completely for their education (at a higher rate than if they were in a private school)

Dudess wrote: »

But what extras do private schools offer?

More co-curricular actives, smaller classes, more subject choices, and in most cases ( I appreciate not all), better facilities - sports grounds, building etc.

Dudess wrote: »

Please illustrate why people here have a chip on their shoulder?

Because private schools , generally provide a much more rounded education, and people who, for whatever reason (parents couldn't afford it, didn't get accepted etc.) don't get the oppurtunity to avail of this, can feel hard done by.

hooradiation

_Bella_ wrote: »

The parents of these schools pay their taxes and therefore they deserve the right for their childrens education to be paid for.

They do. however if parents then choose to forgo the option provided by the state and go private they really can't expect the state to also fund that.
The fact that they do is a quirk of the system, not an inalienable right.

melekalikimaka

hooradiation wrote: »

They do. however if parents then choose to forgo the option provided by the state and go private they really can't expect the state to also fund that.
The fact that they do is a quirk of the system, not an inalienable right.

parents who go send their kids to private pay the same taxes as the parents who go to public, at a guess probably quite alot more, they are just as entitled to the same benefits, quirk in the system???? where'd ya pull that out of?

hooradiation

melekalikimaka wrote: »

parents who go send their kids to private pay the same taxes as the parents who go to public, at a guess probably quite alot more, they are just as entitled to the same benefits, quirk in the system???? where'd ya pull that out of?

Oh Christ.

Yes they are. That benefit is public schools. The taxes they pay go towards (amongst other things) funding public schools.

If they are unsatisfied with this and want to go private, then fair enough but there is no onus on the state to pay towards this.
The fact that we currently do does not make it a right.

How is this difficult to grasp?

melekalikimaka

hooradiation wrote: »

Oh Christ.

Yes they are. That benefit is public schools. The taxes they pay go towards (amongst other things) funding public schools.

If they are unsatisfied with this and want to go private, then fair enough but there is no onus on the state to pay towards this.
The fact that we currently do does not make it a right.

How is this difficult to grasp?

so i assume parents who send their kids to private are entitled to tax relief as a result surely?

surely theirs no 'onus' on the citizen to pay for something he or she has no use for?

techdiver

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

melekalikimaka wrote: »

so i assume parents who send their kids to private are entitled to tax relief as a result surely?

surely theirs no 'onus' on the citizen to pay for something he or she has no use for?

Your taxes go towards funding the health system correct?
You can also choose to purchase private health insurance and give yourself access to private health care in somewhere like the Blackrock or Beacon hospital.
The government does not pay for any of your private health care. You have the choice to use the public system, but you choose not to, the same should apply to public and private education.

You are not being denied your right as a tax payer, you are simply waiving your right to access the state funded system. Simple as.

Private schools represent a two tiered system for those who have and those who haven not. The government should not be encouraging this elitist two tiered approach to education by providing funding for it.

sagat2

techdiver wrote: »

Your taxes go towards funding the health system correct?
You can also choose to purchase private health insurance and give yourself access to private health care in somewhere like the Blackrock or Beacon hospital.
The government does not pay for any of your private health care. You have the choice to use the public system, but you choose not to, the same should apply to public and private education.

You are not being denied your right as a tax payer, you are simply waiving your right to access the state funded system. Simple as.

Private schools represent a two tiered system for those who have and those who haven not. The government should not be encouraging this elitist two tiered approach to education by providing funding for it.

Yes but what about the vast majority of Private schools that do not charge fees? Are they going to be ignored?

techdiver

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

sagat2 wrote: »

Yes but what about the vast majority of Private schools that do not charge fees? Are they going to be ignored?

I think it is well know that when we refer to "private" we mean "fee paying".

Glenster

Dudess wrote: »

What's wrong with Castleknock Community College?

It's not a very nice school, high drop-out rate, low test scores, poor facilities.

Some people might like it, that's fine, maybe it builds character, but objectively, it's bad. I certainly wouldn't send my kids there.

Glenster

hooradiation wrote: »

If they are unsatisfied with this and want to go private, then fair enough but there is no onus on the state to pay towards this.

Yes there is, the state should make the same investment into each child, that's the only fair way.

What I object to is all the begrudgers here who say that parents shouldn't be allowed to pay a bit extra to improve their kids education.

There is a very real 'If I can't have it no-one can!' attitude. Amongst the poor.

sagat2

techdiver wrote: »

I think it is well know that when we refer to "private" we mean "fee paying".

Does it matter say if one school charges 200 Euros a year to cover extra curricular activities and another charges 5,000 the parents are simply paying something extra for their kids. Should the school that takes a measly 200 a year do without state funding? Or is this just another whole load of begrudgery by the poor man who feels entitled to what the rich man has worked for?

melekalikimaka

techdiver wrote: »

Private schools represent a two tiered system for those who have and those who haven not. The government should not be encouraging this elitist two tiered approach to education by providing funding for it.

no it does not. it represents an option, a choice to top up the governments contribution to improve your childs learning, if you all think its purely to separate the rich from the proles ( which is the attitude of alot here) , your being very ignorant, not everone who went to fee paying school were or are rich, some parents merely want more than the bare minimum when it comes to their childs education, and you feel these people should be penalised for this?

techdiver

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

melekalikimaka wrote: »

not everone who went to fee paying school were or are rich

I find it funny so, that all private schools are either located in wealthy areas of are for the most part populated with pupils who are from wealthy backgrounds. You don't see too many working class people going to Blackrock college or Clongowes...:rolleyes:

techdiver

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

sagat2 wrote: »

Does it matter say if one school charges 200 Euros a year to cover extra curricular activities and another charges 5,000 the parents are simply paying something extra for their kids. Should the school that takes a measly 200 a year do without state funding?

Man will you stop trying to smudge the argument. You cannot compare a school charging a few quid for the odd extra curricular activity and a school, who charge tuition fees!

Or is this just another whole load of begrudgery by the poor man who feels entitled to what the rich man has worked for?

Not everyone that is rich needs the reassurance that their offspring cannot get buy in life without a leg up. Many wealthy people send their kids to the same public school as everyone else.

melekalikimaka

techdiver wrote: »

I find it funny so, that all private schools are either located in wealthy areas of are for the most part populated with pupils who are from wealthy backgrounds. You don't see too many working class people going to Blackrock college or Clongowes...:rolleyes:

Did you stand outside and ask for yearly incomes? Don't make assumtions, I assure you there are quite a large portion

techdiver

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

melekalikimaka wrote: »

Did you stand outside and ask for yearly incomes? Don't make assumtions, I assure you there are quite a large portion

I think you'll find it quite difficult to convince people of that to be honest. I don't know too many working class people with the means to pay €15K per year to send a child to school.

ProperDeadly

techdiver wrote: »

I think you'll find it quite difficult to convince people of that to be honest. I don't know too many working class people with the means to pay €15K per year to send a child to school.

Many private school have scholarship/bursary schemes for those who are unable to afford the fees.

knipex

techdiver wrote: »

Your taxes go towards funding the health system correct?
You can also choose to purchase private health insurance and give yourself access to private health care in somewhere like the Blackrock or Beacon hospital.
The government does not pay for any of your private health care. You have the choice to use the public system, but you choose not to, the same should apply to public and private education.

You are not being denied your right as a tax payer, you are simply waiving your right to access the state funded system. Simple as.

Private schools represent a two tiered system for those who have and those who haven not. The government should not be encouraging this elitist two tiered approach to education by providing funding for it.

What a load of twaddle.

Every private patient in a public hospital (who are the vast majority of private patients) effectively has their stay subsidised.

The insurance companies do not pay the full cost of the stay.

The reason is that everyone is entitled to health-care at a certain level. If you choose to go private then you pay the extra and that is what is charged to the insurance companies. (actually its allot more than the extra as all you get is a private room (if you are lucky) and the exact same treatment as the guy in the bed next to you with no insurance)

The two hospitals you mention are a different case and are not covered by 90% of the private health insurance policies held in Ireland but they do receive a certain level of state support.

In effect each private patient in public hospital saves the state money and also provides an income stream to the hospital.

Its the exact same with education. The amount of money spent by the state on private education is far far less than the cost of putting these students through a public school. Each and every child in Ireland is entitled by law to a level of education by the state. If the state an get away with paying a bit less and then having the parent pay the extra plus a chunk then fine.

techdiver

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

ProperDeadly wrote: »

Many private school have scholarship/bursary schemes for those who are unable to afford the fees.

And I'm sure the majority of the student who enrol in such institutions avail of such schemes.

sagat2

techdiver wrote: »

I think you'll find it quite difficult to convince people of that to be honest. I don't know too many working class people with the means to pay €15K per year to send a child to school.

But once again you are talking about the most extreme case, at 15k the student would be boarding 7 days a week, that 15k includes all their meals for a year, their lodging, transportation, security, extra curricular activities and much more. How much does a teenager living at home cost his or her family for a year? Especially if they wanted to play sports, learn music or pursue other interests outside of school time? Factor in food, mobile phone, cost of a bedroom, transport to school and other activities, entertainment. It's a lot and for some sending their kids off to a posh boarding school might actually save them money.

techdiver

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

sagat2 wrote: »

But once again you are talking about the most extreme case, at 15k the student would be boarding 7 days a week, that 15k includes all their meals for a year, their lodging, transportation, security, extra curricular activities and much more. How much does a teenager living at home cost his or her family for a year? Especially if they wanted to play sports, learn music or pursue other interests outside of school time? Factor in food, mobile phone, cost of a bedroom, transport to school and other activities, entertainment. It's a lot and for some sending their kids off to a posh boarding school might actually save them money.

You can argue any way you like, but you are living in dreamland if you think a working class family can afford to send a child to a fee paying school without a scholarship.

ProperDeadly

techdiver wrote: »

And I'm sure the majority of the student who enrol in such institutions avail of such schemes.

Of course they don't . I merely pointing out that not everybody who goes to a private school is ridicoulosly wealthy, as some people seem to be insinuating.

techdiver

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

ProperDeadly wrote: »

I merely pointing out that not everybody who goes to a private school is ridicoulosly wealthy, as some people seem to be insinuating.

Just the majority. :P

ProperDeadly

techdiver wrote: »

Just the majority. :P

hilarious

perri winkles

techdiver wrote: »

You can argue any way you like, but you are living in dreamland if you think a working class family can afford to send a child to a fee paying school without a scholarship.

Sorry, but I think you are completely generalising here. My parents had an average wage when they sent me to private school. They certainly were not rich, but both felt that a good education is the best thing they could ever give me. The same goes for my sister. I don't know any public schools within my general area that could have given me the same oppertunities as my school did.

Also, my mum has now lost her job, my dad's wages have been cut massively and they are saving like crazy to get my sister through the rest of her school years.

So do not say only wealthy people have the oppertunity to go to a private school. It is simply not true.

perri winkles

techdiver wrote: »

I find it funny so, that all private schools are either located in wealthy areas of are for the most part populated with pupils who are from wealthy backgrounds. You don't see too many working class people going to Blackrock college or Clongowes...:rolleyes:

I would also like to point out that not all private schools are in so called 'wealthy' areas.

techdiver

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

perri winkles wrote: »

Sorry, but I think you are completely generalising here. My parents had an average wage when they sent me to private school. They certainly were not rich, but both felt that a good education is the best thing they could ever give me. The same goes for my sister. I don't know any public schools within my general area that could have given me the same oppertunities as my school did.

I think this is the attitude that I find hilarious. Somehow, you will be cast off into the educational abyss if you don't enrol in a fee paying school. How are so many people in this country able to get through second level education in this country and attain a good third level qualification without the intervention of private education?

Perhaps they would have been more wise to save their money for the rainy day instead of spending it on a fee paying school. That's just my opinion.

hooradiation

melekalikimaka wrote: »

so i assume parents who send their kids to private are entitled to tax relief as a result surely?

I can't see why - the option is there for them, if they choose to go private then so be it, but they don't have the right to have the state reimburse them for deciding to go private.

melekalikimaka wrote: »

surely theirs no 'onus' on the citizen to pay for something he or she has no use for?

That's not how taxes work.

And I'd make the argument that if someone genuinely believes that a private school will give their child the best chance in life at being very successful then that public school is indeed something they have a use for.

It's called a labour pool.

melekalikimaka

hooradiation wrote: »

It's called a labour pool.

so your saying public schooling should be exclusive to the poor? your in a dreamland mate, a spiteful dreamland

landsleaving

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

techdiver wrote: »

I think this is the attitude that I find hilarious. Somehow, you will be cast off into the educational abyss if you don't enrol in a fee paying school. How are so many people in this country able to get through second level education in this country and attain a good third level qualification without the intervention of private education?

I got my qualification alright, but I wouldn't mind a few old boy connections for a decent job. I'll even pretend I know what a scrum half is.

sagat2

landsleaving wrote: »

I got my qualification alright, but I wouldn't mind a few old boy connections for a decent job. I'll even pretend I know what a scrum half is.

But isn't the same as a few old boys connections from the local Gaelic team sorting you out with a job?

landsleaving

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

Yeah but they don't run Global corporations (as often)

Herb Powell

Yes, it is correct to direct this €100 million to private schools every year

Sheeps wrote: »

they should ban public schools tbh, maybe then EVERY school in ireland could become private the standard of education would be increased.

the fukk

techdiver

techdiver wrote: »

You can argue any way you like, but you are living in dreamland if you think a working class family can afford to send a child to a fee paying school without a scholarship.

Do you have any idea how much creche fees cost? Alot of normal working class parents pay €12,000 a year for creche fees for one child!

melekalikimaka

techdiver wrote: »

Perhaps they would have been more wise to save their money for the rainy day instead of spending it on a fee paying school. That's just my opinion.

beit a highly sarcastic and condescending one...