Insurance refusing to pay claim

Lex Luthor

My nephew recently crashed his car and it was written off. The insurance company has come back now & said they are refusing to pay out as their were modifications made to the car that they claim they were not made aware of.

The car was bought with these mods, basically its an exhaust/spoiler/uprated wheels/recaros/steering wheel so they were not done after purchase. Car was a 06 so never did an NCT yet but these mods didn't affect the roadworthiness of the car from what I can gather.

Any suggestions what to do next for him?

L1011

Realistically they've got him over a barrel unless the mods were factory spec - whether he bought the car with them or not its his responsibility to report them. The IIF won't be any help here because the policy documents are going to be extremely clear on this.

The insurer has a point in that different wheels will have altered the handling profile and speedo readout, recaro seats are likely to have unauthorised restraint systems that'd change how people got injured in a crash, spoilers alter the handling/performance of the car (albeit possible for the worse). They need to be declared for a reason.

IF its all manufacturer spec (I've got a similarly "modified" car that left the factory with the spoiler, exhaust, tints, alloys, bodykit) he can just get the Irish distributor to provide a letter stating this to the insurer - the insurer is responsible for knowing what a specific type of car has.

ScouseMouse

Dodgy one.

A lot of policies clearly state that any modifications must be declared. Failure to do so can invalidate a policy.

This is to stop boy racers adding performance enhancing parts but claiming its only a "starlet".

What were the mods? If its tinted windows, loud exhaust, spoilers etc and he didnt declare them, he may well be fecked.

It was widely reported last year, a case where one of the insurance companies stood up in court and showed that a false declaration had been made on an insurance proposal. The guy had a crash and his deception came out. They refused to idemnify him and he ended up getting driving without insurance added to his list of charges.

Dont forget, insurance companies do not want to pay out, and they can legally do this.

Good luck anyway.

chris85

Tough one for your nephew OP. Its up to him to advise of the mods. He insured it as a standard model (as no mods were included) and need to advise of mods. Its part of the terms and conditions of most policies that the insurer must be made aware of mods. Thats a few mods and fairly straight forward that the insurance should be let know.

mickdw

Alloys that are not a factory option may well have an effect on handling of the car. From the list of upgrades you list, it would sound as though he had a set of large wheels fitted.
Non standard steering is a big no no as it is quite possibly doing away with the airbag system completely and also the recaro seats would cause airbag issues if the car had bags in the seats.
Its not wise to carry out these kind of mods without notifying them.
At the end of the day, I would think that the insurers would have to demonstrate that the mods could have caused the accident in order to refuse to pay. They may/maynot be able to do this.

-Corkie-

Ya your spot on they are lookin for every excuse under the sun latley to avoid paying out. There was an earlier thread where someone wrote of a fairly new car and they wouldnt pay up as the tyres were under the legal limit.....

mickdw

Its quite obvious too that your nephew was well aware that if he had looked for a quote for a boyracer spec'd car, his premium would have been through the roof. It could therefore be argued that he purposely misled the insurers to optain a reduced quote & this is the reason the insurers will now give to refuse payment. Thinking about it that way, I guess they wouldnt even have to show that the mods had any bearing on the crash.

Dazzy

superscouse wrote: »

Dodgy one.

What were the mods? If its tinted windows, loud exhaust, spoilers etc and he didnt declare them, he may well be fecked.

Would tints be classified as a mod? Never heard of this before.
I have tints on all windows (except windscreen obviously) so worried now!

Anan1

Any proposal form i've ever filled has specifically asked whether the car has been modified. If your nephew lied on the form then I can't see any way out for him.

ScouseMouse

Dazzy wrote: »

Would tints be classified as a mod? Never heard of this before.
I have tints on all windows (except windscreen obviously) so worried now!

Not sure, depends on the company. If its only tints, you could argue. But if its the works, then you have to tell them. Otherwise they can use it as an excuse to not pay out.

Personally, I think it could go a long way to stopping the messing on the roads.

Atlantic Dawn

Dazzy wrote: »

Would tints be classified as a mod? Never heard of this before.
I have tints on all windows (except windscreen obviously) so worried now!

For the rear it's fine but the passenger and drivers windows must not be too heavily tinted for the NCT from April 1st, think it's 65% the rating to pass.

Anan1

Dazzy wrote: »

Would tints be classified as a mod? Never heard of this before.
I have tints on all windows (except windscreen obviously) so worried now!

A mod is a modification, meaning any change from the way the car was originally built.

cadaliac

pity OP, but looks like he is in trouble all right. as Anan1 said, he would have had to lie on the application form so that's the issue for him really.
It's a bit of a joke though, Insurance company's are getting out of large claims any way they can.



Now, I'm off before the safety brigade arrive.

Anan1

cadaliac wrote: »

It's a bit of a joke though, Insurance company's are getting out of large claims any way they can.

I'm no great fan of insurance companies myself, but the insured's having lied on the proposal form doesn't strike me as the most unreasonable reason for refusing a claim.

Lex Luthor

From what I can gather, they are all factory mods. Its a standard 1.25 Fiesta with the ST performance bits tacked on. Everything in the car has the ST logo on it, even the wheels.

I suppose its all down to the insurance application form and what was filled in on it. The mods had no bearing whatsoever on the crash.

Hopefully what mickdw says is true "At the end of the day, I would think that the insurers would have to demonstrate that the mods could have caused the accident in order to refuse to pay. They may/maynot be able to do this. "

This might be his only hope...!!!:(

mickdw

Lex Luthor wrote: »

From what I can gather, they are all factory mods. Its a standard 1.25 Fiesta with the ST performance bits tacked on. Everything in the car has the ST logo on it, even the wheels.

I suppose its all down to the insurance application form and what was filled in on it. The mods had no bearing whatsoever on the crash.

Hopefully what mickdw says is true "At the end of the day, I would think that the insurers would have to demonstrate that the mods could have caused the accident in order to refuse to pay. They may/maynot be able to do this. "

This might be his only hope...!!!:(

But I did change my mind on that in the following post as if he misled them to get a reduced quote, they wont have to pay regardless.
However, the fact that the mods are made for that car & dont in any way increase performance (alloys possibly), I would argue the point strongly with them. TBH seeing as they are factory items, its not the crime of the century as there would be no safety issues re the steering or seats etc

50euro

This is of no help to you but my car had a number of mods done to it, it is an A4. I crashed into a pillar last year and done around seven grand of damage. No issue what so ever and they paid for the damage straight away. Had 19inch wheels, new bumpers, tinted windows etc. The insurance company was Allianz Btw.

chris85

Its goona be tough OP as he has broken terms and conditions of the policy by not informing them of the changes to stock version.

unkel

Lex Luthor wrote: »

From what I can gather, they are all factory mods. Its a standard 1.25 Fiesta with the ST performance bits tacked on. Everything in the car has the ST logo on it, even the wheels.

If you can show that those Ford mods (either factory or dealer fitted) came with car when it was sold new (original order / invoice?) then I can see no reason why the insurer shouldn't pay out.

Anan1

unkel wrote: »

If you can show that those Ford mods (either factory or dealer fitted) came with car when it was sold new (original order / invoice?) then I can see no reason why the insurer shouldn't pay out.

Factory yes, i'm not so sure about dealer.

CoDy1

Usually, if they are not engine mods, insurance companies will pay out on the stock model and disregard the mods, i.e if you pay 2k on wheels and don't declare them, you can't claim for them.

I've seen plenty of cases like this and seems the insurance company are being a bit harsh here if its only a few ST badges. What company is it?

The_Conductor

Even if they are factory mods- were they declared on the insurance?
In my own car- I declared the factory sports alloys, sports tuning, hardened suspension and the actual spec - as opposed to suggesting to my insurance company that it was the vanilla spec- my insurance is EUR80 more than it would otherwise be- but my car is properly declared. I actually got a EUR120 manufacturer specific discount- so it wasn't all that bad.

It all boils down to whether the car was represented in a true manner to the insurance company- or not.......

Henry Ford III

It really doesn't matter if non declared mods caused a crash or not. If the proposal form was incorrectly filled in and a "material" fact not disclosed, the insurer can refute a claim.

I've seen a case where a car fitted with big alloys/tyres and an upmarket stereo was stolen - no payout.

ScouseMouse

Lex Luthor wrote: »

From what I can gather, they are all factory mods. Its a standard 1.25 Fiesta with the ST performance bits tacked on. Everything in the car has the ST logo on it, even the wheels.:(

I am open to correction here but how can they be factory fitted?

There is no way Ford would send out a standard fiesta with ST parts yet call it a standard Fiesta. A Fiesta with ST kit wouldnt be sent out from the factory unless it WAS an ST.

Someone must have put them on at a later stage which makes it modded.

The changes should have been declared when the policy was taken out.

alexmcred

Do extras have to be declared to an insurance company then?

B00MSTICK

I'd say its the exhaust that's the biggest issue, sure an aftermarket exhaust won't alter performance much (It may even hinder it in a car like this) but it is a performance modification regardless.

Most insurance company forms have a question "Is the vehicle modified?" They may even have it listed in the assumptions part i.e Aviva "Is not converted, adapted or modified in any way"

Lex Luthor

superscouse wrote: »

I am open to correction here but how can they be factory fitted?

There is no way Ford would send out a standard fiesta with ST parts yet call it a standard Fiesta. A Fiesta with ST kit wouldnt be sent out from the factory unless it WAS an ST.

Someone must have put them on at a later stage which makes it modded.

The changes should have been declared when the policy was taken out.

maybe not factory 'fitted' but from what I can gather were done by the dealer before leaving the showroom, but that has yet to be established as the car was bought used by my nephew and probably cannot track down the original owner now. The parts though seem to be original Ford cosmetic upgrades

to be honest I think my sis (his mam) blew it when she stated the car had extra bits on it to increase the claim...tut tut (shoulda kept her trap shut me thinks)

ScouseMouse

Lex Luthor wrote: »

maybe not factory 'fitted' but from what I can gather were done by the dealer before leaving the showroom, but that has yet to be established as the car was bought used by my nephew and probably cannot track down the original owner now. The parts though seem to be original Ford cosmetic upgrades

to be honest I think my sis (his mam) blew it when she stated the car had extra bits on it to increase the claim...tut tut (shoulda kept her trap shut me thinks)

And it gets better.....

You are now suggesting insurance fraud as well :eek:

Perhaps you should edit your last post again.... :rolleyes:

guil

superscouse wrote: »

And it gets better.....

You are now suggesting insurance fraud as well :eek:

Perhaps you should edit your last post again.... :rolleyes:

whats the point in him editing it when u quoted him, quotes dont change with an edit

B00MSTICK

Lex Luthor wrote:

to be honest I think my sis (his mam) blew it when she stated the car had extra bits on it to increase the claim...tut tut (shoulda kept her trap shut me thinks)

Good enough for him so :mad:

He should have made the insurance co. aware of the changes regardless, the dealer wasn't getting insurance.

ScouseMouse

guil wrote: »

whats the point in him editing it when u quoted him, quotes dont change with an edit

I can change it if it doesnt happen automatically.:p

Raiser

Soft Target.

They saw their chance.

- They took the opportunity.

oldyouth

SARASON wrote: »

Ya your spot on they are lookin for every excuse under the sun latley to avoid paying out. There was an earlier thread where someone wrote of a fairly new car and they wouldnt pay up as the tyres were under the legal limit.....

Shock horror, Insurance Company takes firm stance over unroadworthy car:eek:

whippet

maybe reading a little more in to it ... why was his mother filling out the insurance claim ?

Would the car be 'owned' by the mother and the son was a named driver ... and the insurance company realised that the named driver was actually the main driver?

Raiser

oldyouth wrote: »

Shock horror, Insurance Company takes firm stance over unroadworthy car:eek:

In fairness there's nothing on here to suggest that the Motor in question is any less roadworthy than your Car, my Car or the insurance Assessors car.

cpoh1

oldyouth wrote: »

Shock horror, Insurance Company takes firm stance over unroadworthy car:eek:

Thats a bit silly calling the car unroadworthy having not mechanically inspected it yourself and basing your opinion on a couple of cosmetic changes :rolleyes:

I have both my cars modified and declared to my insurnance companies and neither have had an impact on my original quoted premiums. In one case the modifications have added serious power gains over standard too.

Lex get your sister onto a good solicitor, i reckon they'll pay out after a ferw letters from them. I would be stating that basis of insurance is "utmost good faith" and the policy holder had no idea that factory accessories for the car in question were considered modifications. At the end of the day insurance is not about crossing all the t's and dotting the eyes, it is about being as honest as you can to the best of your ability, otherwise insurance companies would never have to pay out. In this case i wouldnt consider better seats,fancy st steering wheel and nicer alloys modifications that would/should effect a policy.

Lex Luthor

superscouse wrote: »

And it gets better.....

You are now suggesting insurance fraud as well :eek:

Perhaps you should edit your last post again.... :rolleyes:

not suggesting anything like that. I think they thought with the extras the payout would be more than a std fiesta of same year and mileage

ScouseMouse

Lex Luthor wrote: »

to be honest I think my sis (his mam) blew it when she stated the car had extra bits on it to increase the claim...tut tut (shoulda kept her trap shut me thinks)

Lex Luthor wrote: »

not suggesting anything like that. I think they thought with the extras the payout would be more than a std fiesta of same year and mileage

mmmmmm:rolleyes:

ScouseMouse

cpoh1 wrote: »

Thats a bit silly calling the car unroadworthy having not mechanically inspected it yourself and basing your opinion on a couple of cosmetic changes :rolleyes:

I have both my cars modified and declared to my insurnance companies and neither have had an impact on my original quoted premiums. In one case the modifications have added serious power gains over standard too.

Lex get your sister onto a good solicitor, i reckon they'll pay out after a ferw letters from them. I would be stating that basis of insurance is "utmost good faith" and the policy holder had no idea that factory accessories for the car in question were considered modifications. At the end of the day insurance is not about crossing all the t's and dotting the eyes, it is about being as honest as you can to the best of your ability, otherwise insurance companies would never have to pay out. In this case i wouldnt consider better seats,fancy st steering wheel and nicer alloys modifications that would/should effect a policy.

So. The car was declared as a standard Ford Fiesta. It had extra body kit, sports seats, sports steering wheel, (exhaust/spoiler/uprated wheels/recaros/steering wheel) and was driven by a young guy - probably twenty something. It was crashed and written off.

To me this looks like a boy racer, smells like a boy racer so must be a boy racer.

My opinion is they should not pay out.

thebiglad

cpoh1 wrote: »

Lex get your sister onto a good solicitor, i reckon they'll pay out after a ferw letters from them. I would be stating that basis of insurance is "utmost good faith" and the policy holder had no idea that factory accessories for the car in question were considered modifications. At the end of the day insurance is not about crossing all the t's and dotting the eyes, it is about being as honest as you can to the best of your ability, otherwise insurance companies would never have to pay out. In this case i wouldnt consider better seats,fancy st steering wheel and nicer alloys modifications that would/should effect a policy.

Save your money and refer the claim to the Insurance Ombudsman to adjudicate - details will be in your inurance policy booklet - their decision will be binding on the insurer but not on you, if they rule against you then you can still go to a solicitor.

My view though, the insurance is a contract and a 'lie' was made to form the contract.

Insurer is taking a firm line but, they are entitled to do so under the terms of the insurance policy.

If this car is a total loss, be careful if it is in a recovery yard as it will be attracting a daily storage charge get it moved or sell the wreck (any proceeds will be offset against an future settlement from insurer)

galwaytt

superscouse wrote: »

It was widely reported last year, a case where one of the insurance companies stood up in court and showed that a false declaration had been made on an insurance proposal. The guy had a crash and his deception came out. They refused to idemnify him and he ended up getting driving without insurance added to his list of charges.

Dont forget, insurance companies do not want to pay out, and they can legally do this.

Good luck anyway.

Can you post a link to this case ? My knowledge is that, and it too has come to pass in a courtroom, that once a Cert has been issued, then the RTA is satisfied, and the defendant cannot be prosecuted for no insurance. I just want to clarify that element.

However, the ins can cancel the policy forthwith, and in a case involving a claim, can start a civil suit to reclaim monies they've paid out to a 3rd Party, for the false declaration on the proposal (re: mods), on the grounds of breach of Utmost Good Faith. They can of course withold monies not yet paid out, to the policy holder, for the same reason.

Lex Luthor

Lex Luthor wrote: »

not suggesting anything like that. I think they thought with the extras the payout would be more than a std fiesta of same year and mileage

So why not declare them so when buying the insurance :rolleyes: They can't have it both way.

markpb

Raiser wrote: »

In fairness there's nothing on here to suggest that the Motor in question is any less roadworthy than your Car, my Car or the insurance Assessors car.

You and cpoh1 both misread Oldyouth's post. He quoted someone giving out because an insurer refused to pay out after the assesor notced the tires had insufficient thread depth.

Jo King

galwaytt wrote: »

Can you post a link to this case ? My knowledge is that, and it too has come to pass in a courtroom, that once a Cert has been issued, then the RTA is satisfied, and the defendant cannot be prosecuted for no insurance. I just want to clarify that element.

There is an offence of obtaining insurance cover by deception. Most of these charges are dealt with in the District Court and there are constant wrongful convictions in relation to car insurance.

deman

At the start of reading this thread, I had some sympathy for the OP's nephew and was hoping to be able to offer some advice but as I read on, my sympathy dwindled away.

Boy racer!

Lex Luthor

deman wrote: »

At the start of reading this thread, I had some sympathy for the OP's nephew and was hoping to be able to offer some advice but as I read on, my sympathy dwindled away.

Boy racer!

:rolleyes:

Theta

Lex Luthor wrote: »

maybe not factory 'fitted' but from what I can gather were done by the dealer before leaving the showroom, but that has yet to be established as the car was bought used by my nephew and probably cannot track down the original owner now. The parts though seem to be original Ford cosmetic upgrades

to be honest I think my sis (his mam) blew it when she stated the car had extra bits on it to increase the claim...tut tut (shoulda kept her trap shut me thinks)

Does his insurance list the car as a Fiesta or a Fiesta ST?

Henry Ford III

Jo King wrote: »

There is an offence of obtaining insurance cover by deception. Most of these charges are dealt with in the District Court and there are constant wrongful convictions in relation to car insurance.

You sure that's an offence?

The_Conductor

Henry Ford III wrote: »

You sure that's an offence?

SECTION 59, CRIMINAL JUSTICE (THEFT AND FRAUD OFFENCES) ACT, 2001

Lex Luthor

Theta wrote: »

Does his insurance list the car as a Fiesta or a Fiesta ST?

not sure but I'd say Fiesta as its not an ST

Looks like my insurance is invalid then aswell as I spec'd a different grill when I bought mine last year. where do you stop?

Theta

Fair enough I was going to say if he had it insured as a ase model when it wasnt they still have reason factory mods or not not to pay out!