Croke Park Handball Centre Social Club & Bar

Grudaire

THE GAA and residents around Croke Park stadium in Dublin are set to clash over plans to demolish a handball and community centre and build a new facility.

Dublin City Council has received a planning application from the GAA, which is trustee of the Handball and Community Centre at St Joseph’s Avenue, close to the Hill 16 entrance to Croke Park.

Article in the Irish Times

What do people think of this? There has been long battles fought around the handball centre. It's sad to see so much distrust within the organisation, and a lack of communication over the development.

The planned handball centre will have many more courts (well, more small alleys) but doesn't cater for everything else that Ceannaras currently does (bar and community hall) It's shortsighted not having a bar (IMO ). Anyway thought it might deserve a mention and even discussion here!



Also here is a flyer that was emailed around about it. https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B-0w0pUZRV-KODMzZTdlZWYtMDUzZi00OWJmLWI1OTUtMDgxYWFhNzA1YWFk&hl=en

hughes2558

Its terrible imo to see this group set up against it. It seems anytime the handball sector attempts to make any strides there are people standing in the way. Although saying this what is preventing the Handball Council from including a bar on site. The development itself seems fantastic with the only gripe being the one 60x30 court but I guess seen as its geared for the Worlds in 2012 and space constraints have made 40x20s more desirable.

Grudaire

It's funny, there is three groups, handballers, locals and the GAA/Croke Park Admin.

You'll find that they aren't that well defined with many people in the Street Committees Association (Mr O'Brien san áireamh) are handballers. Also the top people in the handball (at national level) would have been quite involved with the planning.

Is there enough time to start and finish the planning and building for the worlds? I'm not convinced. Catering for big alley should be a top priority for the national handball centre, it's clearly not.

Mardy Bum

Cliste wrote: »

Catering for big alley should be a top priority for the national handball centre, it's clearly not.

Catering for the big alley????????????????????????????????????????
Why? The numbers that enter the big alley each year do not constitute it no matter what anyone says. Dwindling numbers in the big alley V Increasing numbers each year in 40 X 20 and 1 wall simple logic suggests backing the raising codes if handball actually wants to crack through its perception of not actually being a backward sport. 1 wall big ball is the only code that will grow the game and this is agreed with nationally and internationally.


The issue with the community- I am not fully sure of all the facts but whom ever owns that building and the grounds should be able to do what they want with it providing they are not destroying an area. Was the centre built as a community centre or a NATIONAL handball centre? These lines are blurred. This needs to be resolved.

The judo/karate people are getting a place to continue their groups in the plans so this is a non issue imo.

The bar issue- I have heard it was the bar that kept the centre open for a time providing money and such and actually having the place open so people could play games for the last few years. They should be repaid for this. Then shown the door.

Main point is handball needs credibility, with credibility comes more media attention, more media attention means increasing numbers will take up the game and so grows the game. The current state of affairs nationally and internationally is pityful for such an incredible sport.

Kenteach

The main reason that the big alley game is suffering is due to lack of facilities. By going down the same route in the headquarters we may as well let it die altogether, which would be a shame as its still the purest form of the game there is. Agree about the 1 wall though, thats where the growth is to be made. While i will never be able to get an alley built in my school, our PE hall is big enough to allow for all four walls to be used for 1 wall. The kids love it, and none of them have ever been near an alley, and about 3/4 of them wouldn't be ffrom handball strongholds (mainly Brazil, Nigeria and Poland:D). This centre has been a bone of contention for years, its badly needed and everything should be done to get it built.

Grudaire

Ha, thats right the Irish handball Council shouldn't cater for the Irish form of handball!? Pull the other one Mardy. Big alley is far from dead, and a central location with more than a single alley would do wonders, and give the flexibility of holding Tournaments there.

The building was built as both a handball and a community centre. It's that simple.

I think the bar is a practical thing - simple as. Without the bar a caretaker will need to be paid to keep the centre going, and opened. There will be no income for the centre (afaik the profit went straight into the Dublin Juvinile Handball funds.) Showing them the door is possibly the stupidest thing that could happen in the redevelopment.

What happened to the new location for the development anyway?

Mardy Bum

Cliste wrote: »

Ha, thats right the Irish handball Council shouldn't cater for the Irish form of handball!? Pull the other one Mardy. Big alley is far from dead, and a central location with more than a single alley would do wonders, and give the flexibility of holding Tournaments there. One has to be economical at the minute with space and funds. This building is being built with the premise of it being the main place where the worlds will be showcased. If ONLY 5 alleys are being built then 4 must be small alleys to even contemplate having it as the main area for the worlds sure kingscourt has four. Heck id love to see 3 or four of them there BUT if only 5 is being built 4 has to be small. This raises the larger question of why only four and O' Brien has his opinions on that. Just to clarify Im not a big alley basher I think it is more infectious a code than small alley

The building was built as both a handball and a community centre. It's that simple. I was thinking that and have heard the background (it would only be built if it was also a community centre local politicians (chancers) yada yada) This was a mistake to allow this from the start and forward thinking would have been a wise choice.

I think the bar is a practical thing - simple as. Without the bar a caretaker will need to be paid to keep the centre going, and opened. There will be no income for the centre (afaik the profit went straight into the Dublin Juvinile Handball funds.) Showing them the door is possibly the stupidest thing that could happen in the redevelopment.I think the simple reason behind all of it is to make it look more professional.

What happened to the new location for the development anyway?

Sin e an ceist mo chara?

Grudaire

This is the national handball centre, not just the Worlds 2010! I'm just trying to be forward thinking here for the future of Big alley handball Arguing that it's not a popular code flies in the fact of the fact that the place basically sells out every year for the All Ireland Big Alley. (Despite what Mr O'Brien says!)

I've heard a lot about the history of the alley in Croke park, and I'm not sure if I can believe half of it. Did you know that the original alley was actually where hill16 is? http://irishhandballalley.blogspot.com/2009/01/croke-park-site-of-demolished-alley.html , from what I heard there was as much bull surrounding them building Ceannaras!

A Bar doesn't make a place look un-professional. And if thats the only argument for a bar I see little to be gained, and lots to be lost.

Is iad sin mo freagraí mo chara

Mardy Bum

Fitting in a bar is a lot easier said than done in the tiny space they have to work with. Do you think it should be built like it is in the plans Cliste? Yes or No?
I think it should.

Grudaire

What ever happened to the other site that was talked so much about?

I've never actually seen the plans, but based on what I know, No.

Mardy Bum

I never really heard anything about the 'other' site only it was outside Dublin. Where was it meant to be?
So you think 9 million should be turned down from a sport that has no income bar entry fees and 2 matches each year that has a good crowd?:rolleyes:
The GAA are up to something but I'd rather have 5 alleys than none at all.

Grudaire

No, the 'other' site was around the Croke Park area, it may no longer be on the cards, just wondering if anyone know's why not?

Add Bar income into that income there

And we are the GAA! I started this thread to see if anyone else in the organisation cares about a handball centre. Apparently not, because I'm sure we could have this chat some other time! Going UL?

megadodge

Lads, both of you have valid points and I'm going to throw my own into the ring.

Firstly I'm a non-drinker and am quite anti the whole pub culture bullsh!t in this country, yet to NOT have a bar in the new complex is puzzling to say the least.

The current bar is what pays the bills and those bills are only going to be bigger in the new centre. Obviously the new centre will need a full-time caretaker/professional also. How will this person be paid? Are the clubs countrywide going to be levied? Is membership of the new centre going to cover it? I doubt it.

A small bar similar to the current one serves both the handball community by paying for the running and upkeep of the centre and keeps the local residents happy. I genuinely can't understand the reluctance to put one in there especially when you consider all the bars in the stadium next door!! It's obviously not an issue of principal with the GAA.

On the issue of courts, I've seen the plans and yes I'm unhappy that there's only one big alley. We need to promote our national game as much as possible, but the message being sent out is that it's just a side-show.

The side view is also something I'm not happy about. I've been in the side room in the current Croker and it's not the same at all, especially when you can't hear the crack of the ball - it's like watching a tv with the sound muted, it's just not the same. I appreciate that it's possibly the best way to accommodate a larger crowd but surely the bulk of the crowd should be behind the backwall in the traditional way.

However, on the bright side, it's good to see the GAA finally put their money where their mouth is and the €9m is very welcome, but when we have the chance we should make sure the centre is completed to the highest possible standards (weights room, steamroom/sauna, etc.) rather than just go gung-ho and end up wishing we had 'thought' of a few things before the job started.

Mardy Bum

megadodge wrote: »

Lads, both of you have valid points and I'm going to throw my own into the ring.

Firstly I'm a non-drinker and am quite anti the whole pub culture bullsh!t in this country, yet to NOT have a bar in the new complex is puzzling to say the least.

The current bar is what pays the bills and those bills are only going to be bigger in the new centre. Obviously the new centre will need a full-time caretaker/professional also. How will this person be paid? Are the clubs countrywide going to be levied? Is membership of the new centre going to cover it? I doubt it.

A small bar similar to the current one serves both the handball community by paying for the running and upkeep of the centre and keeps the local residents happy. I genuinely can't understand the reluctance to put one in there especially when you consider all the bars in the stadium next door!! It's obviously not an issue of principal with the GAA.

On the issue of courts, I've seen the plans and yes I'm unhappy that there's only one big alley. We need to promote our national game as much as possible, but the message being sent out is that it's just a side-show.

The side view is also something I'm not happy about. I've been in the side room in the current Croker and it's not the same at all, especially when you can't hear the crack of the ball - it's like watching a tv with the sound muted, it's just not the same. I appreciate that it's possibly the best way to accommodate a larger crowd but surely the bulk of the crowd should be behind the backwall in the traditional way.

However, on the bright side, it's good to see the GAA finally put their money where their mouth is and the €9m is very welcome, but when we have the chance we should make sure the centre is completed to the highest possible standards (weights room, steamroom/sauna, etc.) rather than just go gung-ho and end up wishing we had 'thought' of a few things before the job started.

I'm not an architect but is it possible to fit 8 plus alleys in along with two or more big alleys in that space? Who made these plans Chris C or the GAA. Im guessing the GAA.
There must be a bigger issue about the bar I would say that most are not privileged to.
The GAA are giving money to a sport with basically no real income compared with the others. This is the issue I can't understand. I know fair enough they may be trying to grow the game etc but I can't really believe this tbh. Maybe I'm a cynic. :rolleyes:

thirdmantackle

they can have 16 bars in the Croke Park stadium, but rule out one for the handball centre

the mind boggles.

Grudaire

Yea, it seems bizarre that a bar is a no no, and the problem is that they're far too cagy about it, there's no trust to be seen at all - from anyone.

How do you all see it ending though? It's all very militant so far with the protests etc..

Mardy Bum

Impossible to call at this stage the outcome, what stage of planning permission is it at?

wedger

Ok guys well I've read through the posts so far and everyone seems a little confused about whats going on here myself included.
I've looked over he plans and to be honest it is an impressive building but the honest fact what I can see is that |Croke Park/GAA dont throw €9million quid at something without getting something back and that is simply they will use this center as a huge conference center. Croke Park is a business even Peter McKenna said recently on news interviews that revenues are down with soccer and rugby gone and GAA gate receipts falling. He said that "Croke Park are actively looking at new ways to make money". How much money will HAndball make them... Not as mcuh as large conferences, Sure they are cutting back on televising matches in a bid to get more people to attend matches.

Croke Park GAA have neglected Handball for years, why the sudden interest? Well its to get handballer's on side to get their new convention center built. I'd doubt the availability of this new center to those that use it currently on a weekly/daily basis. As for the Community... well I believe that without them for the last 20 odd years there would have been no facilities in Dublin for Handball. They have by all accounts kept the center going with no input of funds etc from Croke Park/GAA only efforts by Croke Park/GAA to get the center closed for years. The main aim of croke park is to get the GAA offices out of Croker to streghten their case that GAA are entitled to charitable status so they (croke park) dont pay taxes...

Welcome any comments on what ive said

thirdmantackle

how would the GAA moving to a seperate building allow them to apply for charitable status???

wedger

Because Croke Park is a profit making enterprise. If GAA offices are in Croke Park it may be a hurdle in proving it's charitable status.

Mardy Bum

wedger wrote: »

Because Croke Park is a profit making enterprise. If GAA offices are in Croke Park it may be a hurdle in proving it's charitable status.

Absolute rubbish. Where are all these offices in the plans?

wedger

Well having spoken to people who attended meetings with officials from Croke Park they were informed that, this is exactly what they wanted to do.

Oh yeah and plus these drawings from the plans:
http://www.dublincity.ie/AnitePublicDocs/00298294.pdf
http://www.dublincity.ie/AnitePublicDocs/00298295.pdf

Croke Park GAA have openly said that they want to use the offices in the two top floors of this building to house up to 60 office staff. Now Handball has a full time staff of 3... So what are the other 57 for...???

densyl19

This issue hasn't gone away you know -
A lot of bully boy tactics from an organisation that was formed "by the people for the people" An organisation that does trojan work at home (in every "parish") and abroad for it's members
Can anyone explain -from the GAA's point of view - what the problem is in allowing a social centre survive?

Mal-Adjusted

Saw this mentioned in another thread and wondering if someone could give a crash course in what exactly is going on? it seems bizzare to say the least.