Manchester United vs Liverpool/Sunday 21st March/KO 13:30 (Mod note: Post #1 & #770)

peterswellman

davyjose wrote: »

Listen, we can split hairs here, but ultimately, your man fcuked up. He fouled Valencia. the ref makes a call on it. maybe it was right, maybe it was wrong. but the person you need to be blaming is Mascherano, not the ref. He just made a VERY close call.

Don't forget the linesman flagging it.

LuckyLloyd

peterswellman wrote: »

So it's the standing leg that's the deciding factor? Interesting that. Sorry now, i'm merely interested. I'm an United supporter and to me it looked a penalty but the rules of the game are sometimes at best 'open to misinterpretation'. The way the linesman flagged aswell I thought for certain it was.

It was stupid by Mascherano to keep tugging that close to the line though. Surely, it wouldn't have been as clear cut a chance as allowing them a free shot with a penalty. That's why in situations like that I can never understand players doing such rash tackles etc. They still have to put the ball in the net. Then again, i've never played in front of 70k.

Mitch Connor wrote: »

so you admit his other foot was in the box? Is your point that it is the standing leg that determines where a foul is?

If you think about any penalty decision, you don't get credit for where parts of your body are leaning...

peterswellman

Mr Alan wrote: »

it may have been stupid by Mash, however it was more stupid by the ref to give a peno for a foul commited outside the box.

Well you could argue that if he never committed the foul in the first place anywhere near the box, then the ref wouldn't have to make a close call.

davyjose

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Oh yeah, on that developing myth. The ball was bobbling it's way all across the box. The penalty spot had nothing to do with it. Would have been more fun if it was the case though, I do admit.

I know that, but it was still quite Ironic he was standing pretty close to that spot. Made me smile. I admire Torres as a player, a lot. But what he did today disgusted me. No class.

peterswellman

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

If you think about any penalty decision, you don't get credit for where parts of your body are leaning...

Well it just shows how close the call was to be made tbh. In real time it was hardly a simple decision to make. Split second stuff.

LuckyLloyd

davyjose wrote: »

Listen, we can split hairs here, but ultimately, your man fcuked up. He fouled Valencia. the ref makes a call on it. maybe it was right, maybe it was wrong. but the person you need to be blaming is Mascherano, not the ref. He just made a VERY close call.

It was wrong. I'm blaming the ref, and on a wider level the inadequate method games are officiated by on the whole.

flahavaj

I never let decisions like this bother me be they for or against a team I'm cheering for. Not worth the aggro. Luck tends to even out in the long run so why bother?

Then again I'm a remarkably mellow kinda fella, I feel sorry for people who are so highly strung as to still be debating it 8 hours after the match has ended.:pac:

IvySlayer

Boggles is a great poster So's CHD

Don't leave either of you....

monkey9

Mr Alan wrote: »

it may have been stupid by Mash, however it was more stupid by the ref to give a peno for a foul commited outside the box.

I don't blame the ref though. It was a close call in fairness to him. It's the way it goes sometimes and we have to accept it

Torres had chances to get something from the game. Yossi too!!

Mitch Connor

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

If you think about any penalty decision, you don't get credit for where parts of your body are leaning...

What the hell are you talking about? You are admiting Valencia had entered the box - then the argument can only be whether he was fouled at all, and he was.

Personally, i think it was a very close call as to whether Valencia was in the box - but i do think it is debatable. I don't think it is as certain as you liverpool/anti-united fans are making out. It was a tough call, not certain either way. You yourself are admitting Valencia was in the box (just that his standing foot was not)

davyjose

Mr Alan wrote: »

it may have been stupid by Mash, however it was more stupid by the ref to give a peno for a foul commited outside the box.

The foul was commited inside the box too, maybe the ref felt such obvious cheating deserved the harshest punishment available to him.

So no. Mascherano, twice in three years badly hurt Liverpool's chances against United in March. He's ultra fcuking stupid. He even looks stupid. He's stupid, just admit it.

Boggles

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It was wrong. I'm blaming the ref, and on a wider level the inadequate method games are officiated by on the whole.

Rafa and his sterile tactics take any blame, nah?

Didn't think do.

davyjose

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It was wrong. I'm blaming the ref, and on a wider level the inadequate method games are officiated by on the whole.

We've had numerous snap-shots of the players crossing the line - really obvious decision there. Unlike YOUR player who commited the most idiotic foul I've ever seen.

Question: why wasn't it a Red card? Last man and all.

LuckyLloyd

flahavaj wrote: »

I never let decisions like this bother me be they for or against a team I'm cheering for. Not worth the aggro. Luck tends to even out in the long run so why bother?

Then again I'm a remarkably mellow kinda fella, I feel sorry for people who are so highly strung as to still be debating it 8 hours after the match has ended.:pac:

Hmm, it probably doesn't though that is the problem.

keane2097

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Hmm, it probably doesn't though that is the problem.

Agreed, I always hate when people say that - it's such a bull**** statement.

LuckyLloyd

davyjose wrote: »

We've had numerous snap-shots of the players crossing the line - really obvious decision there. Unlike YOUR player who commited the most idiotic foul I've ever seen.

Question: why wasn't it a Red card? Last man and all.

Nope.

K-9

flahavaj wrote: »

I never let decisions like this bother me be they for or against a team I'm cheering for. Not worth the aggro. Luck tends to even out in the long run so why bother?

Then again I'm a remarkably mellow kinda fella, I feel sorry for people who are so highly strung as to still be debating it 8 hours after the match has ended.:pac:

I usually wait for MOTD to call these things!

What happened the calls for a Red Card for Masch? Very common during the match, not a whisper now! Telling!

LuckyLloyd

Boggles wrote: »

Rafa and his sterile tactics take any blame, nah?

Didn't think do.

I'm not surprised at your inability to perceive the importance of momentum in ties like today.

flahavaj

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Hmm, it probably doesn't though that is the problem.

I think it probably does. Even if it doesn't it still begs the question, is agruing the point with obviously brainless United fans, as you are quite admirably doing, worth the hassle? I certainly don't think so.

Edit:To qualify that I mean evens itsellf out over a season. Teams tend to finish where they deserve to finish in the league table irrespective of poor decisions etc. Not the clumsy point being made by Mitch below.

Mitch Connor

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Hmm, it probably doesn't though that is the problem.

lets see - carragher doesn't get sent off in the anfield game earlier in the season for a clear red card tackle and liverpool go on to win the game.

United get a dubious penalty and United go on to win the game.

EVENS!!

N'Gog dives for a liverpool penalty to get them points.

United get a dubious penalty and go on to win the game.

EVENS!

City get a dubious foul outside/inside the box penalty vs United.

United get a dubious foul outside/inside the box penalty

EVENS!

K-9

I spoke too soon on the red card! There is always one.

Mitch Connor

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'm not surprised at your inability to perceive the importance of momentum in ties like today.

i'm not surprised at your inability to even consider the fact that the penalty was a close call and tough one for the ref rather than a clear as day never a penalty incident.

davyjose

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Nope.

So the fact there was another player, maybe half a yard closer to the goal, about 15 yards away, has no bearing on a straight red? A lá Vidic last year?

Boggles

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'm not surprised at your inability to perceive the importance of momentum in ties like today.

No Lucky.

I'm pretty clear on momentum.

I can even put it in a sentance.

Valencia had the momentum until he was fouled in the box.

Simples.

Monkey-Back-Banana

flahavaj

keane2097 wrote: »

Agreed, I always hate when people say that - it's such a bull**** statement.

Post 1520 edited for a little more clarification.

Mitch Connor

davyjose wrote: »

So the fact there was another player, maybe half a yard closer to the goal, about 15 yards away, has no bearing on a straight red? A lá Vidic last year?

it shouldn't do - a goal scoring opportunity is not defined by the defender being the last man - there is no mention of a last man or similar in the rules.

Personally, I don't think it was a red card challenge, regardless of it being a penalty or not. It was a tug, and there were defenders around. I wouldn't have called for a red if the free was given on the edge of the area, and I wouldn't call for one as it was given as a penalty - the position of the infringement is irrelevant in this instance imo.

LuckyLloyd

Boggles wrote: »

No Lucky.

I'm pretty clear on momentum.

I can even put it in a sentance.

Valencia had the momentum until he was fouled in the box.

Simples.

Monkey-Back-Banana

I actually laughed at this "out loud". Good job!

K-9

Mitch Connor wrote: »

lets see - carragher doesn't get sent off in the anfield game earlier in the season for a clear red card tackle and liverpool go on to win the game.

United get a dubious penalty and United go on to win the game.

EVENS!!

N'Gog dives for a liverpool penalty to get them points.

United get a dubious penalty and go on to win the game.

EVENS!

City get a dubious foul outside/inside the box penalty vs United.

United get a dubious foul outside/inside the box penalty

EVENS!

True and I can appreciate refs don't have the benefit of video cameras or Boardsies opinions. Said the same when it was Gerrard and Brown, sh*t happens.

Mitch Connor wrote: »

i'm not surprised at your inability to even consider the fact that the penalty was a close call and tough one for the ref rather than a clear as day never a penalty incident.

I think he gave the benefit of the doubt to him and felt it was a "soft" penalty, which is why he probably didn't give Masch a Red.

LuckyLloyd

flahavaj wrote: »

I think it probably does. Even if it doesn't it still begs the question, is agruing the point with obviously brainless United fans, as you are quite admirably doing, worth the hassle? I certainly don't think so.

Edit:To qualify that I mean evens itsellf out over a season. Teams tend to finish where they deserve to finish in the league table irrespective of poor decisions etc. Not the clumsy point being made by Mitch below.

This would be a wider debate, but I don't agree with you on this point even. I am of course aware that it is the conventionally held wisdom, the idea that the 'league table doesn't lie'.

However, I think there is infact a lot of variance over the course of 38 football games (particularly considering the deficiencies of modern officiating methods) and it is, infact, incredibly unlikely to balance itself out. As I say, this would be a wider discussion outside the scope of this individual thread.

SlickRic

first and foremost, utd deserved it.

the penalty was a free kick. it was close, and i'm not going to go mad because it was missed by the officials, because in real speed it was almost impossible.

but it was outside the box. Valencia waited that split second until he was nearly in to fall over.

Utd were the better team, so that lessens that particular blow.

Masch and Lucas did not do enough for me for most of the match. they were never anywhere near the second ball, and Flecther and Carrick had the easy task of mopping that up.

Kuyt and Torres were easily our best players.

Gerrard and Johnson were embarrassing. the rest were a load of meh.

Babel did well when he came on.

for utd, Park and Rooney were incredible. Fletcher wasn't bad either, and his cross for the second goal probably deserves to get him close to the MOTM award. who got it by the way?

we did not get the ball to Torres at his feet enough. every time we did, it seemed to put the sh*ts up them. but it's no good doing it every so often. we kept lumping the ball up to him, and Vidic took care of that nice and easy. on the deck, different story altogether.

that being said, i'd have expected him to do better with one of the other 2 chances he had.

once again, Gerrard needs to f*ck off. his head's not in it.

Rooney was a joy to watch from a footballing point of view. we could not get near him. Park either to be fair.

anyway, the result didn't surprise me, although the ease at which Utd eased the game down did a bit.

it's their league to lose. Chelsea are falling apart. Arsenal's run-in is all that stands in their way.

keane2097

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

This would be a wider debate, but I don't agree with you on this point even. I am of course aware that it is the conventionally held wisdom, the idea that the 'league table doesn't lie'.

However, I think there is infact a lot of variance over the course of 38 football games (particularly considering the deficiencies of modern officiating methods) and it is, infact, incredibly unlikely to balance itself out. As I say, this would be a wider discussion outside the scope of this individual thread.

Again, agreed on this.

kryogen

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It was wrong. I'm blaming the ref, and on a wider level the inadequate method games are officiated by on the whole.

but blaming the ref isnt really right either

for one thing, the linesman gave the penalty, Webb looked to him and he flagged, only after he flagged did Webb give the penalty, Webb was a long way from the action, i suppose you could hold that against him

in my opinion, in real time, the first time i saw it, i shouted penalty, it did look it first time round, i can understand the officials and i can say hand on my heart i would undertsand also if a decision like that went against us

i wouldnt be happy, same as pool fans, but i would understand why it was given

Id be more angry with my own player who, just after we had taken the lead away from home in a massive game, commited a stupid foul like that and put the ref in that position in the first place

abouttobebanned

can anyone link me to a confirmation of the man of the match

Mr Alan

**** evens itself out over the course of a season is the biggest load of bollox. absolute nonsense statement made to cover up incompetent officiating.

davyjose

kryogen wrote: »

Id be more angry with my own player who, just after we had taken the lead away from home in a massive game, commited a stupid foul like that and put the ref in that position in the first place

Completely agree.

flahavaj

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

This would be a wider debate, but I don't agree with you on this point even. I am of course aware that it is the conventionally held wisdom, the idea that the 'league table doesn't lie'.

However, I think there is infact a lot of variance over the course of 38 football games (particularly considering the deficiencies of modern officiating methods) and it is, infact, incredibly unlikely to balance itself out. As I say, this would be a wider discussion outside the scope of this individual thread.

In accordance with the mellow outlook to which I am now duty bound to adhere I agree to withdraw gracefully from that particular debate. Good idea for a thread actually though, "does the league table ever lie?"

davyjose

Mr Alan wrote: »

**** evens itself out over the course of a season is the biggest load of bollox. absolute nonsense statement made to cover up incompetent officiating.

Yeah, they should give Liverpool the league every year, cos they never get any luck, and if they did, they'd be unbeatable, and blah blah blah.

LuckyLloyd

Mitch Connor wrote: »

i'm not surprised at your inability to even consider the fact that the penalty was a close call and tough one for the ref rather than a clear as day never a penalty incident.

I have long been on record in this forum as arguing against the entire mentality that brushes off these types of incidents with 'oh it was close, human error, etc' type comments. IF video review was reality, there is no doubt in my mind that a penalty would not have been awarded today. These decisions are too important to get wrong with such regularity.

davyjose

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I have long been on record in this forum as arguing against the entire mentality that brushes off these types of incidents with 'oh it was close, human error, etc' type comments. IF video review was reality, there is no doubt in my mind that ....

Torres would have a Red card.

monkey9

flahavaj wrote: »

In accordance with the mellow outlook to which I am now duty bound to adhere I agree to withdraw gracefully from that particular debate. Good idea for a thread actually though, "does the league table ever lie?"

Pass that spliff around, man!!

Mitch Connor

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I have long been on record in this forum as arguing against the entire mentality that brushes off these types of incidents with 'oh it was close, human error, etc' type comments. IF video review was reality, there is no doubt in my mind that a penalty would not have been awarded today. These decisions are too important to get wrong with such regularity.

True - i don't think the penalty would have been given either.

I do think there is an argument for it to be a penalty, as I do think Valencia had made the box, but I don't think - even on replays - that you can be 100% either way and thus a penalty should not have been given.

My argument with you is that I think it is arguable at the least, and not a cast iron never inside the box foul.

LuckyLloyd

flahavaj wrote: »

In accordance with the mellow outlook to which I am now duty bound to adhere I agree to withdraw gracefully from that particular debate. Good idea for a thread actually though, "does the league table ever lie?"

Yeah, more than fair.

As for having a thread? We had one on a related concept before ("does the result always reflect who deserved to win") and it was a disaster. The human mind is programmed to work backwards from the result in analysis.

Mr Alan

davyjose wrote: »

Yeah, they should give Liverpool the league every year, cos they never get any luck, and if they did, they'd be unbeatable, and blah blah blah.

The stupidity of United fans taking the piss out of Liverpool fans about this (i'm just saying it was the wrong call, no big conspiracy) a couple of days after the comments made by Alex Ferguson is making me smile.

LuckyLloyd

davyjose wrote: »

Torres would have a Red card.

Nope.

Mitch Connor

davyjose wrote: »

Torres would have a Red card.

i would truly hope not.

If video replays are ever brought in to the game, I would hope it isn't used for every decision like it would have needed to be in this incident. On/Over the line goals and maybe penalties.

Mr Alan

davyjose wrote: »

Torres would have a Red card.

Actually a yellow. Fletcher on the other hand, a red.

davyjose

Mr Alan wrote: »

The stupidity of United fans taking the piss out of Liverpool fans about this (i'm just saying it was the wrong call, no big conspiracy) a couple of days after the comments made by Alex Ferguson is making me smile.

The stupidity of Liverpool fans laughing at ferguson, then foaming at the mouth a few days later, at a perceived injustice, is making me smile. thanks for bringing that up though.

keane2097

Mr Alan wrote: »

The stupidity of United fans taking the piss out of Liverpool fans about this (i'm just saying it was the wrong call, no big conspiracy) a couple of days after the comments made by Alex Ferguson is making me smile.

Can you not just say "the stupidity of the person saying this" rather than retarded generalising bull**** of every United fan Alan?

I thought you were a bit above that.

Mitch Connor

Mr Alan wrote: »

The stupidity of United fans taking the piss out of Liverpool fans about this (i'm just saying it was the wrong call, no big conspiracy) a couple of days after the comments made by Alex Ferguson is making me smile.

You mean the comments where Fergie said nothing bad about Liverpool, or Gerrard but that the FA disciplinary procedures are a joke - those comments? Those comments which have been echoed bu virtually everyone? Those comments? Or different ones? If different, please link.

LuckyLloyd

Mitch Connor wrote: »

True - i don't think the penalty would have been given either.

I do think there is an argument for it to be a penalty, as I do think Valencia had made the box, but I don't think - even on replays - that you can be 100% either way and thus a penalty should not have been given.

My argument with you is that I think it is arguable at the least, and not a cast iron never inside the box foul.

Well, I'd put it like this: IF we had a similar challenge system akin to that which operates in American football and Webb hadn't awarded a penalty when the incident occurred, I would completely understand Ferguson looking for a replay to check if it was inside the box. In that respect, I agree that it looked close at first glance.

Still in such a hypothetical scenario, I wouldn't expect a penalty to be the final outcome.