Manchester United vs Liverpool/Sunday 21st March/KO 13:30 (Mod note: Post #1 & #770)

CR 7

daveyboy_1ie wrote: »

Bottom line is make a stupid challenge like that in and around the penalty box and you run the risk of it being called a peno AND being sent off, but thats typical of the guy, already been sent off twice against United in about 5 games. Brainless is not the word and if he had indeed of been sent off it would have been his third of the season, along with the 9 yellow cards he has picked up.

It was a dull match and although United playes slightly the better stuff it was a hard one to call and noone would have beens surprised if Torres did not fluff his lines at the end and equalise. But thats life and especially this season with Liverpool everytime they improve they take another step back. I bet most fans are just praying for the finish so they can regroup and come back stronger next season.

btw, Gerrard was awful yesterday and looked a very unhappy player. anyone else notice that?

IvySlayer

daveyboy_1ie wrote: »

Bottom line is make a stupid challenge like that in and around the penalty box and you run the risk of it being called a peno AND being sent off, but thats typical of the guy, already been sent off twice against United in about 5 games. Brainless is not the word and if he had indeed of been sent off it would have been his third of the season, along with the 9 yellow cards he has picked up.

It was a dull match and although United playes slightly the better stuff it was a hard one to call and noone would have beens surprised if Torres did not fluff his lines at the end and equalise. But thats life and especially this season with Liverpool everytime they improve they take another step back. I bet most fans are just praying for the finish so they can regroup and come back stronger next season.

btw, Gerrard was awful yesterday and looked a very unhappy player. anyone else notice that?

Strolling around the pitch, not tracking back, not hassling players off the ball. You'd think he'd be up for a derby! 2 decent chances to shoot, crossed instead, which went nowhere. No motivation, no confidence, not good signs for captaincy. Used to be one of my favourite players.

Will Rafa grow some balls and drop him? It's what he needs to do. Reina is one of the few who actually looks like he wants to play.

I'm happy we got the 3 points, it wasn't our best perfromance, Liverpool just didn't turn up in the second half.

Lex Luthor

I don't think it was a peno but it was certainly warranted of a red card.

Liverpool were lucky to keep Masc on the pitch cos even up to then UTD looked like they had one extra player on the pitch.

Rafas tactics again got it wrong. How many positions did he play Gerrard in the last 15-20 mins? I think 4? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Fletcher made a big difference to the game overall. Rooneys work rate again was immense.

Carragher had one of his better games for me. He put in some great tackles.

Johnson was non-effective. Dont think I saw him cross the half way line until midway into the 2nd half. Valencia did a great job on the right and put a lot of pressure on Insua. What next for Liverpool? I cant see any improvement next year under the currect regime of owners/manager.

daveyboy_1ie

Park Ji Sung wrote: »

Exactly, make the challenge and pay the price (twice!!!)

CR 7

daveyboy_1ie wrote: »

Exactly, make the challenge and pay the price (twice!!!)

I was just pointing out that you were calling Mascherano indisciplined for being sent off twice in 5 games, but you're right, I don't think anyone complained any of the 3 times Vidic was sent off, only asked for equality, in Carragher being sent off last time, and Macherano this time.

Park Ji Sung

Park Ji Sung wrote: »

I was just pointing out that you were calling Mascherano indisciplined for being sent off twice in 5 games, but you're right, I don't think anyone complained any of the 3 times Vidic was sent off, only asked for equality, in Carragher being sent off last time, and Macherano this time.

Vidic was sent off for a second yellow, Carragher committed a similar tackle and also got a yellow but had not been booked before so stayed on the pitch what was wrong with that chain of events?

Masch was not the last defender and it was not a clear goal scoring opportunity so why should he have been sent off?

jaykay74

Philip Freezing Stagecoach wrote: »

Masch was not the last defender and it was not a clear goal scoring opportunity so why should he have been sent off?

The bit in bold is irrelevant and of course it was a goalscoring opportunity. He was through and had only the keeper to beat.

jaykay74

jaykay74 wrote: »

The bit in bold is irrelevant and of course it was a goalscoring opportunity. He was through and had only the keeper to beat.

What about Carragher coming across?

jaykay74

Philip Freezing Stagecoach wrote: »

What about Carragher coming across?

Are you serious, Carragher coming across against Valencia

Mitch Connor

Philip Freezing Stagecoach wrote: »

What about Carragher coming across?

No way Carragher would have got across in time imo.

I reckon yellow was right by the way, but i still don't think Carragher was close enough to get across for the block in time.

Vanbis

Mitch Connor wrote: »

No way Carragher would have got across in time imo.

I reckon yellow was right by the way, but i still don't think Carragher was close enough to get across for the block in time.

A yellow card was the right decision, L'pool had cover but tha fact is if Mascherano had not grabed hold of Valencia then he would have gone through and may have scored, defo would have made Reina work with a shot on goal.

SlickRic

Mitch Connor wrote: »

No way Carragher would have got across in time imo.

I reckon yellow was right by the way, but i still don't think Carragher was close enough to get across for the block in time.

correct answer.

RE: Gerrard...abysmal.

he could not be arsed. i'd say Utd players were doing double takes to see if it was the same player they'd been playing against for the last decade.

lethargic, wasteful, and moaning again.

he won't be dropped. there are too many people who still see him as Mr Liverpool that if Rafa dropped him, he'd never hear the end of it. Every poor performance without him would be disected to the Nth degree.

i wish he would be though.

i mean Torres is in the same underperforming team, and yes he can be a brat, but you can see he gives a sh*t.

Vanbis

SlickRic wrote: »

correct answer.

RE: Gerrard...abysmal.

he could not be arsed. i'd say Utd players were doing double takes to see if it was the same player they'd been playing against for the last decade.

lethargic, wasteful, and moaning again.

he won't be dropped. there are too many people who still see him as Mr Liverpool that if Rafa dropped him, he'd never hear the end of it. Every poor performance without him would be disected to the Nth degree.

i wish he would be though.

i mean Torres is in the same underperforming team, and yes he can be a brat, but you can see he gives a sh*t.

Do L'pool fans think that Rafa has lost the dressing room? It was a terrible performance by Gerrard own standards.

SlickRic

Vanbis wrote: »

Do L'pool fans think that Rafa has lost the dressing room? It was a terrible performance by Gerrard own standards.

i don't know.

i think Gerrard and Carragher are extremely frustrated with things. whether it's just about this season, or whether it's a more deep rooted thing with them I don't know.

my guess would be that they see their careers winding down soon enough, and they're desperate to win the big one, and they're just reacting badly.

we'll know a lot more at the start of next season.

as for the rest, I don't think there's a problem. Pepe will sign on, Masch looks like he'll be signing after all the Barca furore, Babel's back looking motivated. the likes of Torres, Kuyt, Lucas and Benayoun seem to be fine.

Gerrard and Carragher have been the heart of the team for so long, that their reactions to things sometimes get generalised for the whole dressing room. i do it myself. and the reality is that i think most of that dressing room is firmly behind Rafa.

i hope that makes sense.

Boggles

SlickRic wrote: »

i don't know.

i think Gerrard and Carragher are extremely frustrated with things. whether it's just about this season, or whether it's a more deep rooted thing with them I don't know.

my guess would be that they see their careers winding down soon enough, and they're desperate to win the big one, and they're just reacting badly.

we'll know a lot more at the start of next season.

as for the rest, I don't think there's a problem. Pepe will sign on, Masch looks like he'll be signing after all the Barca furore, Babel's back looking motivated. the likes of Torres, Kuyt, Lucas and Benayoun seem to be fine.

Gerrard and Carragher have been the heart of the team for so long, that their reactions to things sometimes get generalised for the whole dressing room. i do it myself. and the reality is that i think most of that dressing room is firmly behind Rafa.

i hope that makes sense.

How do you know that?

Everything I have seen suggests otherwise.

ROCKMAN

SlickRic wrote: »

correct answer.

RE: Gerrard...abysmal.

he could not be arsed. i'd say Utd players were doing double takes to see if it was the same player they'd been playing against for the last decade.

lethargic, wasteful, and moaning again.

he won't be dropped. there are too many people who still see him as Mr Liverpool that if Rafa dropped him, he'd never hear the end of it. Every poor performance without him would be disected to the Nth degree.

i wish he would be though.

i mean Torres is in the same underperforming team, and yes he can be a brat, but you can see he gives a sh*t.[/QUOTE]

Totally agree about Torres ,he may come across as brat-ish , but you cannot doubt his commitment , He is been let down by the performances around him namely Gerrard . At this stage if I was a pool fan I would be more worried about keeping Torres happy that Gerrard .Yes he was a great servant to the club but i'm starting to think he days may be numbered , And If Liverpool are to bounce back next season it will be build around top quality , commited players like Torres and not the half-hearted and lethargic efforts of Gerrard.

Vanbis

SlickRic wrote: »

i don't know.

i think Gerrard and Carragher are extremely frustrated with things. whether it's just about this season, or whether it's a more deep rooted thing with them I don't know.

my guess would be that they see their careers winding down soon enough, and they're desperate to win the big one, and they're just reacting badly.

we'll know a lot more at the start of next season.

as for the rest, I don't think there's a problem. Pepe will sign on, Masch looks like he'll be signing after all the Barca furore, Babel's back looking motivated. the likes of Torres, Kuyt, Lucas and Benayoun seem to be fine.

Gerrard and Carragher have been the heart of the team for so long, that their reactions to things sometimes get generalised for the whole dressing room. i do it myself. and the reality is that i think most of that dressing room is firmly behind Rafa.

i hope that makes sense.

After their finish to last season going close and on an amazing run of games and scoring bags of goals i am sure they both expected to at least challenge again this season but from the start. I think everything that could go wrong has and with games running out for the chase for 4th its getting frustrating for them and the rest because they know the club is already suffering from financai pressure.

Id be surprised if Rafa goes at the end of the season but his body language in a couple of interviews seem to suggest he has made up his mind? If he stays then the summer at L'pool will be very interesting, it could all depend if they get the investment they need.

Vanbis

Boggles wrote: »

How do you know that?

Everything I have seen suggests otherwise.

I agree, he seems to have lost some and maybe respect from the players.

kryogen

Lex Luthor wrote: »

Liverpool were lucky to keep Masc on the pitch cos even up to then UTD looked like they had one extra player on the pitch.

Rafas tactics again got it wrong. How many positions did he play Gerrard in the last 15-20 mins? I think 4? Correct me if I'm wrong.

Someone was listening to Jamie Redknapp after the game!

here is is summed up perfectly for you

SlickRic wrote: »

correct answer.

RE: Gerrard...abysmal.

he could not be arsed. i'd say Utd players were doing double takes to see if it was the same player they'd been playing against for the last decade.

lethargic, wasteful, and moaning again.

he won't be dropped. there are too many people who still see him as Mr Liverpool that if Rafa dropped him, he'd never hear the end of it. Every poor performance without him would be disected to the Nth degree.

i wish he would be though.

i mean Torres is in the same underperforming team, and yes he can be a brat, but you can see he gives a sh*t.

Gerrards woeful performance (for pretty much all season is not down to Rafa

SlickRic

Boggles wrote: »

How do you know that?

Everything I have seen suggests otherwise.

i don't.

hence why i said, 'i think'.

the manager doesn't have us playing well, but everyone is putting in a shift (bar Gerrard), and that's all you can ask for as a manager.

that's enough for me for now to say that the dressing room is behind him.

to repeat...Pepe's signing, it seems Masch will now, Babel is playing well and his attitude is better. they're also decent signs.

i believe there are more signs that the players are playing for the manager than not.

don't get wrong, I myself am still just about sick of Rafa even though the performances have gotten better with Torres returning.

kryogen

well thats a lot of the problem, the team is set up with the theory that as long as the other 9 are solid, that Torres and Gerrard will worry about the goals , simplisitc take on it i know, but there isnt much point in going into detail on it here!

so when Torres is injured or Gerrard isnt arsed, it doesnt end well

SlickRic

kryogen wrote: »

well thats a lot of the problem, the team is set up with the theory that as long as the other 9 are solid, that Torres and Gerrard will worry about the goals , simplisitc take on it i know, but there isnt much point in going into detail on it here!

so when Torres is injured or Gerrard isnt arsed, it doesnt end well

yeah, well that's another topic altogether!

Mitch Connor

kryogen wrote: »

well thats a lot of the problem, the team is set up with the theory that as long as the other 9 are solid, that Torres and Gerrard will worry about the goals , simplisitc take on it i know, but there isnt much point in going into detail on it here!

so when Torres is injured or Gerrard isnt arsed, it doesnt end well

No so different from United if we are to be honest though - difference is that Rooney has been on fire this season and has carried the goal threat we needed him too.

kryogen

Mitch Connor wrote: »

No so different from United if we are to be honest though - difference is that Rooney has been on fire this season and has carried the goal threat we needed him too.

It is different though

I know what your saying, but Fergie will change his system, Rafa generally doesnt

I am not saying there is anything wrong in the system itself, it works fine when Torres and Gerrard are doing theri stuff, but when they arent it has to be changed

Nalz

Ah lads "brat" for Torres?
I've seen an awful lot worse.
So what? Like he moans a little but he gives 100% everytime. Class player. Fully committed. Played many a game carrying many a knock. If Man United had such a player and a replacement for Scholes they'd rule the world imo.

kryogen

Trilla wrote: »

Ah lads "brat" for Torres?
I've seen an awful lot worse.
So what? Like he moans a little but he gives 100% everytime. Class player. Fully committed. Played many a game carrying many a knock. If Man United had such a player and a replacement for Scholes they'd rule the world imo.

Berba has been carrying a knee injury for most of the season


Rooney also carrying a knee injury recently

i like Torres as a footballer, but to say he moans a little is a joke, he bitches more then Rooney ever did tbh

always having a go at the ref, the linesman and the opposition if things arent going his way

CR 7

Trilla wrote: »

Ah lads "brat" for Torres?
I've seen an awful lot worse.
So what? Like he moans a little but he gives 100% everytime. Class player. Fully committed. Played many a game carrying many a knock. If Man United had such a player and a replacement for Scholes they'd rule the world imo.

We have a better version already.

Nalz

Park Ji Sung wrote: »

We have a better version already.

different players but yes I'd rather Rooney. I'd take both though!

Mikeyt086

Trilla wrote: »

Ah lads "brat" for Torres?
I've seen an awful lot worse.
So what? Like he moans a little but he gives 100% everytime. Class player. Fully committed. Played many a game carrying many a knock. If Man United had such a player and a replacement for Scholes they'd rule the world imo.

Why is Torres being labeled a brat?

Its not Torres is it? But he is acting differently, i dont know exactly why so i wont pretend i do but the moaning, having a go at other players (Park for diving) and the peno spot deal had him coming off like a brat.

I am an admirer of Torres. He has punished United many times and i hate him for those moments but he is a quality player and had always carried himself with dignity and respect. He has failed to do the latter in recent weeks. Thats where the label is coming from imo. Btw im not calling him a brat, i would say he is someone fed up with all the bull**** going on around him.

starbelgrade

Nalz

Mikeyt086 wrote: »

having a go at other players (Park for diving) and the peno spot deal had him coming off like a brat.

Just clearing this up, Park didn't dive.

deisedevil

Mikeyt086 wrote: »

i would say he is someone fed up with all the bull**** going on around him.

I'd imagine the same myself.

Can't be easy putting in the kind of displays he does but not getting any reward because your on a "sinking ship"

I can't help wondering how things might have been had United stumped up the extra cash for him. I'm sure Torres is wondering that now also.

cournioni

Great performance and result. Park and Fletcher were immense throughout the whole game. Best team won on the day. I was shocked at how bad Liverpool were.

Mitch Connor

PORNAPSTER wrote: »

Great performance and result. Park and Fletcher were immense throughout the whole game. Best team won on the day. I was shocked at how bad Liverpool were.

thought Park was terrible in the first half.

Ush1

Torres moans more than Rooney?? Any player giving refs and linesmen more stick than Rooney has to be having a laugh. I'd say the linesmen do be covered in phelgm after a match involving Rooney.

Mitch Connor

Ush1 wrote: »

Torres moans more than Rooney?? Any player giving refs and linesmen more stick than Rooney has to be having a laugh. I'd say the linesmen do be covered in phelgm after a match involving Rooney.

Previously yeah - i think Rooney has really improved in this aspect of his game, especially this season. I think he is very different in this regard to the player he used to be.

Vanbis

Mitch Connor wrote: »

thought Park was terrible in the first half.

I thought that myself. Not one of his best games in a red shirt.

kryogen

Mitch Connor wrote: »

thought Park was terrible in the first half.

I agree, thought he was guilty of a few wasteful moments, but he and Rooney worked so hard in the second half, Valencia was excellent too as was Fletch, really, to me the only blot on the game, especially the second half performance, was Carrick, he was just awful

has anyone been mentioning how much Vidic owned Torres yesterday yet?

and you cant fault him for the goal!

Vanbis

kryogen wrote: »

I agree, thought he was guilty of a few wasteful moments, but he and Rooney worked so hard in the second half, Valencia was excellent too as was Fletch, really, to me the only blot on the game, especially the second half performance, was Carrick, he was just awful

Fletcher, Valencia were the two who stood out for me.

kryogen wrote: »

has anyone been mentioning how much Vidic owned Torres yesterday yet?

and you cant fault him for the goal!

I noticed Ferfie mentioned this after the game, probably having a little dig at the stupid press before.

Ush1

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Previously yeah - i think Rooney has really improved in this aspect of his game, especially this season. I think he is very different in this regard to the player he used to be.

Perhaps, maybe has less to whinge about since he's scoring so much. But officials saying calm down Wayne is a far more familiar sight than calm down Fernando.

Vanbis

kryogen wrote: »

was Carrick, he was just awful

has anyone been mentioning how much Vidic owned Torres yesterday yet?

before the game they mentioned L'pool targeting Vidic but i somehow think it was Carrick who was the target, if you watch evertime he had the ball he was closed down pretty quick and gave it away. Mcuk.

Mitch Connor

Ush1 wrote: »

Perhaps, maybe has less to whinge about since he's scoring so much. But officials saying calm down Wayne is a far more familiar sight than calm down Fernando.

Again, I disagree. I think he has calmed down and this season he has moaned far less at officials - i don't think it has been a problem of his this season at all.

I also don't think Torres is moaning that much at officials, but it does seem that he is constantly moaning - at his teams mates and the opposition players as much as at the officials.

Maybe Rooney is calmer this season cause things are going well for him, but that doesn't change the fact he is calmer this season and to ignore that is disingenuous.

starbelgrade

Vanbis wrote: »

before the game they mentioned L'pool targeting Vidic but i somehow think it was Carrick who was the target, if you watch evertime he had the ball he was closed down pretty quick and gave it away. Mcuk.

He must've been the only player the Pool closed down so.

Mitch Connor

starbelgrade wrote: »

He must've been the only player the Pool closed down so.

it just looked like they were closing him down quickly....cause he was so slow on the ball.

Vanbis

Mitch Connor wrote: »

it just looked like they were closing him down quickly....cause he was so slow on the ball.

Thats probably the reason

SlickRic

kryogen wrote: »

has anyone been mentioning how much Vidic owned Torres yesterday yet?

no, because ownership didn't really happen.

Torres was dealing with balls pumped up high too often, and yes, Vidic owned that area of it, fair enough.

but any time the ball came to feet Torres looked very dangerous against him.

and the goal was the fault of both central defenders. he was the only one in the box, and he was given a free header.

starbelgrade

Regarding the penalty decision, I've weighed up the pundits opinions on the matter & believe that the most balanced & unbiased opinion is this one...

"After 11 minutes Valencia surged into the box and was fouled by Mascherano, who was subsequently booked. Liverpool complained that the offence had taken place outside the area, but referee Howard Webb pointed to the spot. The delaying tactics that followed, including Torres trying to scuff the penalty spot, were as pathetic as they were unsportsmanlike."

(Courtesy of ManUtd.com)

Ush1

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Again, I disagree. I think he has calmed down and this season he has moaned far less at officials - i don't think it has been a problem of his this season at all.

I also don't think Torres is moaning that much at officials, but it does seem that he is constantly moaning - at his teams mates and the opposition players as much as at the officials.

Maybe Rooney is calmer this season cause things are going well for him, but that doesn't change the fact he is calmer this season and to ignore that is disingenuous.

Well I am unbiased and certainly have seen Rooney moaning this season, and almost everytime he does moan, he seems to swear profusely at officials like no other player I've seen. He actually did it at least once in the Liverpool game that I can recall to the lineman. There's no moan stats to prove either.

kryogen

SlickRic wrote: »

no, because ownership didn't really happen.

Torres was dealing with balls pumped up high too often, and yes, Vidic owned that area of it, fair enough.

but any time the ball came to feet Torres looked very dangerous against him.

and the goal was the fault of both central defenders. he was the only one in the box, and he was given a free header.

nope, fault of Rio and Neville to a greater extent, Vidic was gone to try stop the cross covering Evra who hadnt gone with the runner

lol i know ownership didnt technically happen, but like to poke fun at the bull**** surrounding the Torres/Vidic myth

Mitch Connor

SlickRic wrote: »

no, because ownership didn't really happen.

Torres was dealing with balls pumped up high too often, and yes, Vidic owned that area of it, fair enough.

but any time the ball came to feet Torres looked very dangerous against him.

and the goal was the fault of both central defenders. he was the only one in the box, and he was given a free header.

Rio was the central defender closest to him - Vidic was nowhere near him, having gone with the runner down the edge of the box. I'd blame Neville/Rio, don't know how you can really blame Vidic for it.