Change the National Anthem, Amhrán na bhFiann??

dkin

dlofnep wrote: »

We all know knacker is a derogative term for members of the travelling community. His post certainly smacked of hypocrisy if he used it in that context.

I very much doubt he used that in that context, based on his posts he does not strike me as someone who is blaming members of the travelling community for 'letting Ireland down'.

dlofnep

dkin wrote: »

I very much doubt he used that in that context, based on his posts he does not strike me as someone who is blaming members of the travelling community for 'letting Ireland down'.

I'm sure he can answer for himself.

If you are basing your judgement on his posts, I'd like to know exactly what thread you've been reading.

gonnaplayrugby

im not a snob and i wasnt targettin the travellers with that knacker comment

dlofnep

gonnaplayrugby wrote: »

i wasnt targettin the travellers with that knacker comment

Fair enough.

gonnaplayrugby wrote: »

im not a snob

Sure you're note..

gonnaplayrugby wrote: »

nobody cares about you lot.

gonnaplayrugby wrote: »

your opinion doesn't count.

aDeener

Dudess wrote: »

No they're not. Just because it's your hugely misinformed opinion, doesn't mean they are.

Why on earth "should" they be? Because it's YOUR opinion?

I believe the point was: you were freaking out over someone giving their opinion that they don't see the point in being proud of where you were born, and you took it personally and reacted as if they were were only referring to Irish people, when they were actually referring to patriotism in general - no matter where someone is from.

Nobody here is putting down, or bothered by, people being proud of their nationality. Some though, myself included, don't see the point in being proud of where you were born - that is our opinion, which we are entitled to, just as you are entitled to yours.
That said, there do seem to be certain traits exclusive to certain nationalities, and I think here, the positive ones are friendliness (yes I know, not always - generally speaking though, it's hardly Coldsville) and sense of humour. And I like being part of that. But pride - I'm just not feeling it. Should I make myself? And I don't have a problem with others taking pride, but they shouldn't force it on me, which is what you've been doing on some of your posts here, Gerard.C.
I feel the national anthem being played in a pub is a form of forcing it on people - a pub isn't the right place for it anyway, in my opinion. So I won't stand, or else I'll go outside.
And yes, patriotism HAS the potential to be dangerous - we have seen numerous examples of this all over the world. That's not to say Irish people could go in a similar direction, but to say patriotism has never led to evil is just disingenuous.
Having said all that, I hate injustice and I would sympathise with the nationalist/moderate republican side in the North (but would be understanding and accepting of the position of moderate unionists too) - and it really grinds my gears when people down here are so dismissive and forgetful of what the nationalist community experienced up there, and when they sneer at people with leanings such as mine as if it's a right 'ra-head position to take.
And not believing in being proud to be Irish means I also have no understanding of the other side of the coin - being "ashamed" to be Irish. Again, just being born here does not make you in any way sharing in responsibility for terrible things that have been done here (e.g. clerical abuse). To me, being ashamed of your nationality - whatever it is - is just caving into racists. The crap that some Irish people post here about what a terrible country Ireland is (as in, like Zimbabwe?), how backward/thick/ugly we are etc - it just looks dumb. Ireland is expensive, the government are woeful (they were saviours during the boom though, apparently), the health service is fairly shocking, infrastructure is crap, but it's also a pretty easy-going place to live, quality of life is good, we're free to do and say as we please (lol at people saying it's a "banana republic" - I guess it's kinda romantic to pretend we're repressed though).

Because Antbert disagrees with you? Thought she put her counter-arguments across very well - and didn't (until provoked) resort to getting ratty... whereas you got really aggressive with her from the start (including picking on her posting style in order to call it "sad") - simply because she has an opinion you don't like.

Yeah I consider the D4 contingent a bit of a scourge too...

Because of course these are exclusive to Ireland? Yeah it IS funny how you dislike racists, yet constantly make remarks about "the Irish" (I'm happy for you that you, as an Irish person, are so special as to be exempt from these Irish people you have such an issue with ).

very easily impressed if thats the case.
being opposed to something because its "potentially dangerous" is ludicrous

McChubbin

Eleven pages and no-one's metioned...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCg_uCBbvLY

dkin

Gerard.C wrote: »

Yeah, I do think people should be patriotic. Men fought and died for this country, it would be the least some people could do - to say they are proud to be from a place where heros lost their lives for us. Hugely misinformed? Hardly. I realise some people have no time to dwell on the past in modern Ireland, fine.

The past is dead and buried, the concerns and worries of people in the past are of limited interest to us who live in the present. Class struggle and fight against discrimination and persecution from an oppressive elite were the primary aims of most uprisings including Irelands, these are noble aims but certainitly not unique to Ireland but rather a product of their times and I imagine most of the people who supported the cause supported it as they believed they would have better lives as an insular homogenous independent nation.

Instead of blaming an entire country or race of people we should recognise that the actions of that nation was primarily driven by a small number of powerful people who were jocking for control and influence. This is why the idea of patriotism/nationalism is so dangerous as it allows a small number of powerful people to lead a large number of ignorant people to die for their cause enriching themselves and furthering their aims with very little reward for the soldier who believed he was doing it for some imagined greater good, for the glory of the nation etc. People want to believe they are part of something great, they want that feeling of importance.

In Ireland what we had was a pesants uprising lead by idealistics in the name of national identity and some noble aims then we swiftly swapped the ruling British elite for an indigenous one. This happened pretty much everywhere that was under colonial rule except now the oppressed cannot band together under some shared banner of identity.

Working together is the way forward, concentrate on emphasising our similarities while respecting differences.Patriotism on the other hands tends to overemphasise differences.

The everyday experience of most people living in Ireland today would be almost identical had we stayed within the UK. Culture changes with time it is not static and the Ireland of today is completely different from former times in all ways. Modern culture is far closer to that of the British than it is to traditional Irish culture, British culture is also completely different when compared with tradional British culture. I guarantee that most poor Irish people share more in common with a British person of similar means than they do with many of the richer and more prosperous Irish people. Nostalgisticly looking back at some form of idealistic Irish state and dreaming is regressive and largely pointless as that time has passed and gone.

Bloodshed is not the way to instigate change. I admire people who are willing to make a righteous stand people like Nelson Mandela who scorn violence and instead force change through other forms of passive resistance. The women's movement is a prime example of this.

I can understand how some people can see the unromantic side of our history, as you said. I'm shamed to say those sort of people came from my country. I, and many other people can see the beauty of Ireland past, but when someone says that being patriotic is "meaningless", considering what people have done for us in the past? I wouldnt stand for that, in all honesty.

It would be disingenuous and pig headed to ignore the mistakes of previous generations. The only way to progress is to learn from our mistakes.

Precious flower

I definitely think this should be our anthem : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbrzZWLu6Qw

colly10

Korvanica wrote: »

better than that song they use for rugby...

although.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIyixC9NsLI

We can't change to that, its too like the new English one -

gavkm27

Xavi6 wrote: »

That song is a farce and means fuckin nothing.

It's a sham, and a fraud and.........a sham.

Have you been in Croke Park with 80000 people singing it????? i had similar thoughts as you did until i found myself fighting back tears during it today,all the Scottish around me when singing it too.

opinion guy

gavkm27 wrote: »

Have you been in Croke Park with 80000 people singing it????? i had similar thoughts as you did until i found myself fighting back tears during it today,all the Scottish around me when singing it too.

Seriously ? Over rugby ?

El Siglo

opinion guy wrote: »

Seriously ? Over rugby ?

Yeh that's a little over the top.

What about this for a national anthem?

Typewriter

I read up to page nine of this thread then got bored so im not sure if this has been said before.

Why don't we change the national anthem to
The Fields of Athenry

We could sing one verse in English then one in Irish. Everybody loves the song and everybody knows the lyrics.

lugha

green_jesus wrote: »

I read up to page nine of this thread then got bored so im not sure if this has been said before.

Why don't we change the national anthem to
The Fields of Athenry

We could sing one verse in English then one in Irish. Everybody loves the song and everybody knows the lyrics.

I think it was considered at one point as a sort of official rugby anthem, like Flower of Scotland, but I think they decided it wasn't rousing enough or something.

Dudess

Gerard.C wrote: »

Yeah, I do think people should be patriotic. Men fought and died for this country, it would be the least some people could do - to say they are proud to be from a place where heros lost their lives for us.

You can appreciate that without being proud (or indeed ashamed) of being Irish though - that's where I'd stand.

Hugely misinformed? Hardly.

I was referring to the way you said anyone who isn't proud to sing the national anthem is an ignorant pig. There could be people who are extremely informed on Ireland's history but choose not to sing the anthem.

But to say I'm forcing my opinions on people? Its something I feel strongly about, and I have every right to express how I feel. If my opinion was expressed too strongly, sorry

Again, referring to the "ignorant pig" comment and you getting narky with Antbert.

aDeener wrote: »

very easily impressed if thats the case.

Not really no - it's my opinion she put across her points well. Just because you disagree with them doesn't make me "easily impressed".

being opposed to something because its "potentially dangerous" is ludicrous

In your opinion. And the above is just one factor.

Xavi6

gavkm27 wrote: »

Have you been in Croke Park with 80000 people singing it????? i had similar thoughts as you did until i found myself fighting back tears during it today,all the Scottish around me when singing it too.

I totally understand the passion before games, and think it's fantastic, but the actual song itself means nothing. It was created because it had to be and was forced upon the public without really much of a choice in the matter.

Those fans would be unified by rugby anyway so I don't believe that the song has anything to do with that passion on display in Croker.

Dudess

McChubbin wrote: »

Eleven pages and no-one's metioned...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCg_uCBbvLY

Or...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTo7VHFvu6o

gavkm27

opinion guy wrote: »

Seriously ? Over rugby ?

El Siglo wrote: »

Yeh that's a little over the top.

Haha yes the fact that a song sung by 80000 people including Scottish supports stirred some emotion and reminded me i'm human is a little over the top and over Rugby,what was i thinking!,so silly of me,i think i will stay home on boards talking about atheism and masterbate

gavkm27

Xavi6 wrote: »

I totally understand the passion before games, and think it's fantastic, but the actual song itself means nothing. It was created because it had to be and was forced upon the public without really much of a choice in the matter.

Those fans would be unified by rugby anyway so I don't believe that the song has anything to do with that passion on display in Croker.

Well as far as i know we are stuck with it for now lad,so when the boys are touring oz in the summer,hope you make it to a game and sing it proud :D

orourkeda

Our new national anthem should be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3Txvt6tTKo

Gerard.C

dkin wrote: »

The past is dead and buried, the concerns and worries of people in the past are of limited interest to us who live in the present. Class struggle and fight against discrimination and persecution from an oppressive elite were the primary aims of most uprisings including Irelands, these are noble aims but certainitly not unique to Ireland but rather a product of their times and I imagine most of the people who supported the cause supported it as they believed they would have better lives as an insular homogenous independent nation.

Instead of blaming an entire country or race of people we should recognise that the actions of that nation was primarily driven by a small number of powerful people who were jocking for control and influence. This is why the idea of patriotism/nationalism is so dangerous as it allows a small number of powerful people to lead a large number of ignorant people to die for their cause enriching themselves and furthering their aims with very little reward for the soldier who believed he was doing it for some imagined greater good, for the glory of the nation etc. People want to believe they are part of something great, they want that feeling of importance.

In Ireland what we had was a pesants uprising lead by idealistics in the name of national identity and some noble aims then we swiftly swapped the ruling British elite for an indigenous one. This happened pretty much everywhere that was under colonial rule except now the oppressed cannot band together under some shared banner of identity.

Working together is the way forward, concentrate on emphasising our similarities while respecting differences.Patriotism on the other hands tends to overemphasise differences.

The everyday experience of most people living in Ireland today would be almost identical had we stayed within the UK. Culture changes with time it is not static and the Ireland of today is completely different from former times in all ways. Modern culture is far closer to that of the British than it is to traditional Irish culture, British culture is also completely different when compared with tradional British culture. I guarantee that most poor Irish people share more in common with a British person of similar means than they do with many of the richer and more prosperous Irish people. Nostalgisticly looking back at some form of idealistic Irish state and dreaming is regressive and largely pointless as that time has passed and gone.

Bloodshed is not the way to instigate change. I admire people who are willing to make a righteous stand people like Nelson Mandela who scorn violence and instead force change through other forms of passive resistance. The women's movement is a prime example of this.



It would be disingenuous and pig headed to ignore the mistakes of previous generations. The only way to progress is to learn from our mistakes.

First of all, patriotism is not about blaming an entire country or race of people for something. And to be honest, I find it insulting that you would call men who died for Ireland "ignorant".

"Modern culture is far closer to that of the British than it is to traditional Irish culture" - not everywhere. And to be honest, the attitudes of some people here are prime examples of this. Its about time some people stopped apologizing for being Irish. To pharaphrase Shane MacGowan, some people need to be able to see the beauty that is Irelands past, and the beauty that can be Irelands future. People can be so negative about their own nationality sometimes, it both baffles and saddens me.

I completely disagree with your comments about the uprising, and what would have happened if we stayed under British rule. But to be honest I couldnt be bothered getting into that argument right now.

But, to go back to your first comment about the past being dead and buiried. "The Past" is not limited to fighting the english, we have such a storied history that goes far beyond fighting the opression. Even looking at out Folklore, our past is incredible. We have a fantastic history, and I see no reason why people should be put down for embracing out past. I'm well aware some people have no interest, as it is "not relevant" to their day to day lives and "pointless". Nobody is asking anyone to become a devote patriot. But a sense of pride and appreciation for what people have done for us, thats not asking too much I dont think.

And I am well aware it would be wrong to ignore our past mistakes. But when reflecting on our past, it is the heros of our country that I think of, not the villians.

opinion guy

gavkm27 wrote: »

Haha yes the fact that a song sung by 80000 people including Scottish supports stirred some emotion and reminded me i'm human is a little over the top and over Rugby,what was i thinking!,so silly of me,

Did you forget you were human? What did you think you were then? Robot? Crying over sport - I'm almost call that a condition

i think i will stay home on boards talking about atheism and masterbate

Whatever floats your boat. What does atheism have to do with anything ?

gavkm27

opinion guy wrote: »

Did you forget you were human? What did you think you were then? Robot? Crying over sport - I'm almost call that a condition


Whatever floats your boat. What does atheism have to do with anything ?

Sometimes it's said that when someone feels emotion it makes the feel human,thats all,more of a saying,not that i was particularly feeling like a robot that day.
I got tickets which were like gold dust and took my mam who has never been to see Ireland play and always wanted to,we had a great day.
Also i would'nt say i was crying over sport,just alot of people singing together at once.I found the moment quite powerful and yes it floated my boat thanks!
Atheism has nothing to do with anything! and i was taking the piss,apologies if anyone is offended

kowloon

As long as it all revolves around ball games you can count me out.

Gerard.C

kowloon wrote: »

As long as it all revolves around ball games you can count me out.

Wha?

Columbia

I sung both Amhrán na bhFiann and Ireland's Call yesterday, during the anthem I stood proudly, during Ireland's Call I was pointing my camera all around the ground, there's the difference. My opinion is unswayed: nothing tops our present anthem.

Except the Russian anthem. Man, I love the Russian anthem. Sometimes I listen to it on repeat like teenage girls do with Lady Gaga songs. If we could switch, then I'd learn it in Russian and everything.

Dudess

If you're proud to be Irish because of the good things done in Ireland's name, would it not make sense then to be ashamed to be Irish because of the bad?

Gerard.C

Dudess wrote: »

If you're proud to be Irish because of the good things done in Ireland's name, would it not make sense then to be ashamed to be Irish because of the bad?

As far as I'm concerned, the good completely outweighs the bad.

Most people have this notion that patriotism is based purely on our history of rebellions and fighting, etc...

We are born into a wonderful nation. Look at our History and Culture. We have produces some of the greatest poets, singers, songwriters, artists, dancers, sportsmen and sportswomen that the world has ever seen. Jesus when you think about it, we are truely blessed to be born here. People just have such a negative attitude nowadays towards irish pride.

Do you honestly expect me to be ASHAMED to be from Ireland because of a few bad apples?

No, it would not make sense. I have no time for those who have done wrong. But, I will never ever be ashamed to say I am from a country that has produced the heros our country has produced

gonnaplayrugby

your living in complete la la land. your away with the birds like.

Gerard.C

gonnaplayrugby wrote: »

your living in complete la la land. your away with the birds like.

Did Irelands Call do its job yesterday?

Dudess

Gerard.C wrote: »

We are born into a wonderful nation. Look at our History and Culture. We have produces some of the greatest poets, singers, songwriters, artists, dancers, sportsmen and sportswomen that the world has ever seen.

As have many other countries, Ireland isn't special - I think there can be a tendency to big it up. Don't get me wrong, it's nice to come from a country with a great literary tradition etc, I feel plenty of positive sensations about being Irish, but I don't feel compelled to have a sense of pride, of accomplishment, in it. And while there are many Irish with a baffling inferiority complex, there are also many who tend to think a little too highly of this country.
Ireland's good - lots of great things about it, but it's not amazing.

Do you honestly expect me to be ASHAMED to be from Ireland because of a few bad apples?

Absolutely not - "I'm ashamed to be Irish" has to be one of the most annoying phrases ever (in my opinion).
However I think it's a bit picky and choosy, if you're coming from the angle of being proud of the positive, to not be ashamed of the negative.

Gerard.C

Dudess wrote: »

As have many other countries, Ireland isn't special - I think there can be a tendency to big it up. Don't get me wrong, it's nice to come from a country with a great literary tradition etc, I feel plenty of positive sensations about being Irish, but I don't feel compelled to have a sense of pride, of accomplishment, in it. And while there are many Irish with a baffling inferiority complex, there are also many who tend to think a little too highly of this country.
Ireland's good - lots of great things about it, but it's not amazing.

Absolutely not - "I'm ashamed to be Irish" has to be one of the most annoying phrases ever (in my opinion).
However I think it's a bit picky and choosy, if you're coming from the angle of being proud of the positive, to not be ashamed of the negative.

I'll ask you this - looking at Ireland from a "per-head" kind of view, is it not fair to say that we are up there with the best of them? For a tiny Island, we have produced world champions in sport, literary greats who are appreciated all over the world, depsite the colloquial nature of their works, bands who have become legends worldwide. Considering the size of Ireland, I would consider that amazing myself.

Don't get me wrong, I am ashamed of the negative. In all honesty, I dont even dwell on some of the scum that has come from here. In my opinion, our history is filled with too much beauty for it to be tainted by scumbags

gonnaplayrugby

rugby is one of the few sports we excel at yet you hate it. ireland is poor at everything else, our olympic haul is woeful compared to a country like new zeland which is of a similar size.

we are what we are theres nothing special about us.

fitz0

gonnaplayrugby wrote: »

your living in complete la la land. your away with the birds like.

Do you have anything to say beyond Irelands Call is great and if you don't think so you must be mentally deficient? ...like

Gerard.C

gonnaplayrugby wrote: »

rugby is one of the few sports we excel at yet you hate it. ireland is poor at everything else, our olympic haul is woeful compared to a country like new zeland which is of a similar size.

we are what we are theres nothing special about us.

I just dont enjoy watching the sport, so what? I'm proud we do well in it, I realise we have fantastic players on our team, I just dont enjoy the sport itself. Stop picking arguments for the sake if it. There isnt even substance to you're arguments, if you could even call them that. You're either a troll, or a lunatic

The Aussie

neil_hosey wrote: »

Our national anthem is brilliant and reflects what the country went through to achieve independence.

Can you sing it in english, cant understand a word of it.

The Aussie

gonnaplayrugby wrote: »

our olympic haul is woeful.

Unless you bring back Michael Smith the swimmer.

dkin

Gerard.C wrote: »

"Modern culture is far closer to that of the British than it is to traditional Irish culture" - not everywhere.

Out of curiosity how do you define traditional Irish culture, I assume you mean things like Irish dancing, speaking Irish, playing gaelic games etc. Is this really the culture of a nation? In traditional times people didn't have cars, electricity, telephones etc. As a result the everyday experience of someone living in a traditional Irish homestead would have been completely different to it's modern equivalent things like music, telling stories, the flow of the seasons, manual labour in the fields, insular highly localised local communities, oppressive social and religious values were an integral and important part of everyday life and formed their culture. This is no longer true.

And to be honest, the attitudes of some people here are prime examples of this. Its about time some people stopped apologizing for being Irish. To pharaphrase Shane MacGowan, some people need to be able to see the beauty that is Irelands past, and the beauty that can be Irelands future. People can be so negative about their own nationality sometimes, it both baffles and saddens me.

While I admire the past achievements of Irish people I also admire the past achievements of many other nations too. I admire the achievements of others but I do not feel proud about it, I feel proud about things that I personally achieve and seek inspiration from the achievements of others. The Irish are not a separate race as supposed by this Celtic bloodline etc. In reality we are a hybrid race with a genetic background composed of many different peoples from many places. Genetically I share as much in common with most English people as I do with most Irish people.
I certainly don't feel ashamed to be Irish for although there are many fools and idiots who come out of this country I am not responsible for their actions in the same way I am not responsible for the actions of our greatest people. I do wish the majority of Irish people were a bit more progressive in their thinking however and I recognise that we are a very badly run country.

But, to go back to your first comment about the past being dead and buiried. "The Past" is not limited to fighting the english, we have such a storied history that goes far beyond fighting the opression. Even looking at out Folklore, our past is incredible. We have a fantastic history, and I see no reason why people should be put down for embracing out past. I'm well aware some people have no interest, as it is "not relevant" to their day to day lives and "pointless". Nobody is asking anyone to become a devote patriot. But a sense of pride and appreciation for what people have done for us, thats not asking too much I dont think.

Yes we have much to celebrate in our past but once again the connection between us and them is very tenuous, and many other countries have a similar past. The problem arises when people seem to take value from the past work of others in what way is it related to you? Patriotism emphasises the achievements of a certain geographical region above those of others. For instance there are people who are proud to be from Munster/Kerry etc. and look down at others, are these people Munster/Kerry patriots? The notion of national boundries is arbitrary. Taking pride in the work of others is not a good idea.

And I am well aware it would be wrong to ignore our past mistakes. But when reflecting on our past, it is the heros of our country that I think of, not the villians.

Well the heroes as you call them were a very small number of people and not necessarily representative of the thinking of an entire county or a product of its culture. Instead of looking at the tiny minority who were willing to sacrifice all for something they believed in I am more likely to judge a country based on what the majority do. For instance child abuse scandal that was widely known, voting in power petty parish pump politicians consumed with self interest, abject disregard for things such as education and health, huge divide between rich and poor etc.

Dudess

gonnaplayrugby wrote: »

ireland is poor at everything else

I may not subscribe to pride in one's nationality, but it's damn preferable to self loathing. I suppose it's important to distinguish yourself from the plebs though, as you alluded to earlier. You're SO enlightented... /swoons

Antbert

Gerard.C wrote: »

I'll ask you this - looking at Ireland from a "per-head" kind of view, is it not fair to say that we are up there with the best of them? For a tiny Island, we have produced world champions in sport, literary greats who are appreciated all over the world, depsite the colloquial nature of their works, bands who have become legends worldwide. Considering the size of Ireland, I would consider that amazing myself.

That's completely subjective. I read a lot and don't particularly like any Irish writers. Now, I highlight "particularly" before you accuse me of slamming Ireland's apparent literary heroes. It just so happens that my favourite authors are mostly British. So you'd need some kind of scale to measure a 'literary great' on. Same goes for bands. I'd be willing to read your statistics on this, compared with statistics on Britain.

I realise you're looking for reasons for Irish pride, and I'm not actually trying to pick it apart. My point is the same as it was from the start. It doesn't matter (to me) whether or not U2 are Irish (I wish I liked U2 so that my point would be reinforced, so let's pretend that I do). U2 are good because they're talented musicians who write good music (hmm). I'm not 'proud' of them, the same way I'm not 'proud' of Pink Floyd. I just like them. I'm not 'proud' of AC/DC, even though they're sort of Australian. What have I got to be proud of? I didn't write the music, or the books, or play the sport.

It's something I don't understand. And I'm not sure your per-head argument is even true (although as I've said, I'm willing to proven wrong).

Don't get me wrong, I am ashamed of the negative. In all honesty, I dont even dwell on some of the scum that has come from here. In my opinion, our history is filled with too much beauty for it to be tainted by scumbags

Why are you ashamed of the negative? That's equally as unfathomable. You aren't accountable for the past, same as I'm not accountable for AC/DC.

Gerard.C

dkin wrote: »

Out of curiosity how do you define traditional Irish culture, I assume you mean things like Irish dancing, speaking Irish, playing gaelic games etc. Is this really the culture of a nation? In traditional times people didn't have cars, electricity, telephones etc. As a result the everyday experience of someone living in a traditional Irish homestead would have been completely different to it's modern equivalent things like music, telling stories, the flow of the seasons, manual labour in the fields, insular highly localised local communities, oppressive social and religious values were an integral and important part of everyday life and formed their culture. This is no longer true.



While I admire the past achievements of Irish people I also admire the past achievements of many other nations too. I admire the achievements of others but I do not feel proud about it, I feel proud about things that I personally achieve and seek inspiration from the achievements of others. The Irish are not a separate race as supposed by this Celtic bloodline etc. In reality we are a hybrid race with a genetic background composed of many different peoples from many places. Genetically I share as much in common with most English people as I do with most Irish people.
I certainly don't feel ashamed to be Irish for although there are many fools and idiots who come out of this country I am not responsible for their actions in the same way I am not responsible for the actions of our greatest people. I do wish the majority of Irish people were a bit more progressive in their thinking however and I recognise that we are a very badly run country.



Yes we have much to celebrate in our past but once again the connection between us and them is very tenuous, and many other countries have a similar past. The problem arises when people seem to take value from the past work of others in what way is it related to you? Patriotism emphasises the achievements of a certain geographical region above those of others. For instance there are people who are proud to be from Munster/Kerry etc. and look down at others, are these people Munster/Kerry patriots? The notion of national boundries is arbitrary. Taking pride in the work of others is not a good idea.



Well the heroes as you call them were a very small number of people and not necessarily representative of the thinking of an entire county or a product of its culture. Instead of looking at the tiny minority who were willing to sacrifice all for something they believed in I am more likely to judge a country based on what the majority do. For instance child abuse scandal that was widely known, voting in power petty parish pump politicians consumed with self interest, abject disregard for things such as education and health, huge divide between rich and poor etc.

Is my national pride actually THAT much of an issue to you?

Gerard.C

Antbert wrote: »

That's completely subjective. I read a lot and don't particularly like any Irish writers. Now, I highlight "particularly" before you accuse me of slamming Ireland's apparent literary heroes. It just so happens that my favourite authors are mostly British. So you'd need some kind of scale to measure a 'literary great' on. Same goes for bands. I'd be willing to read your statistics on this, compared with statistics on Britain.

I realise you're looking for reasons for Irish pride, and I'm not actually trying to pick it apart. My point is the same as it was from the start. It doesn't matter (to me) whether or not U2 are Irish (I wish I liked U2 so that my point would be reinforced, so let's pretend that I do). U2 are good because they're talented musicians who write good music (hmm). I'm not 'proud' of them, the same way I'm not 'proud' of Pink Floyd. I just like them. I'm not 'proud' of AC/DC, even though they're sort of Australian. What have I got to be proud of? I didn't write the music, or the books, or play the sport.

It's something I don't understand. And I'm not sure your per-head argument is even true (although as I've said, I'm willing to proven wrong).


Why are you ashamed of the negative? That's equally as unfathomable. You aren't accountable for the past, same as I'm not accountable for AC/DC.

No offence, but I completely disregard your opinion. I'd be shocked if you were not intentially trying to stir it.

Antbert

Gerard.C wrote: »

No offence, but I completely disregard your opinion. I'd be shocked if you were not intentially trying to stir it.

No offence?!

You're only making yourself look terrible now by firstly disregarding me because I was born in Australia, and by secondly pretending to do this because you actually have no answer to anything I say.

Gerard.C

Antbert wrote: »

No offence?!

You're only making yourself look terrible now by firstly disregarding me because I was born in Australia, and by secondly pretending to do this because you actually have no answer to anything I say.

Nah, just couldnt be bother with ya. I've no problem discussing this with someone like Dudess. I disagree with your opinion so much that its not even worth my while bothering in all honesty. If the lord gave me more patience with such negative people like you, maybe I would have some sort of an answer.

bitta pride for ya

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHcP4MWABGY

dlofnep

gonnaplayrugby wrote: »

rugby is one of the few sports we excel at yet you hate it.

Nobody hates a sport. People can dislike it however, regardless of whether Ireland is good at it or not. I hate all field sports, and find them all equally boring.

gonnaplayrugby wrote: »

ireland is poor at everything else

No we're not. We are great at hurling and gaelic football. People can follow sports at a national level too. We've also got competitive golfers, jockeys, and boxers.

gonnaplayrugby wrote: »

we are what we are theres nothing special about us.

No, nor is there anything special about rugby.

Antbert

Gerard.C wrote: »

Nah, just couldnt be bother with ya. I've no problem discussing this with someone like Dudess. I disagree with your opinion so much that its not even worth my while bothering in all honesty. If the lord gave me more patience with such negative people like you, maybe I would have some sort of an answer.

So... No answer yeah?

aDeener

gonnaplayrugby wrote: »

rugby is one of the few sports we excel at yet you hate it. ireland is poor at everything else, our olympic haul is woeful compared to a country like new zeland which is of a similar size.

we are what we are theres nothing special about us.

doesnt say alot for us, if ireland were defeated by a team beaten by italy, who apparently are not exactly the all blacks when it comes to rugby :eek:

aDeener

Dudess wrote: »

You can appreciate that without being proud (or indeed ashamed) of being Irish though - that's where I'd stand.

I was referring to the way you said anyone who isn't proud to sing the national anthem is an ignorant pig. There could be people who are extremely informed on Ireland's history but choose not to sing the anthem.

Again, referring to the "ignorant pig" comment and you getting narky with Antbert.

Not really no - it's my opinion she put across her points well. Just because you disagree with them doesn't make me "easily impressed".

In your opinion. And the above is just one factor.

so you are actually saying that to be against something because its potentially dangerous is not downright silly?

what would you say to me if i said i was opposed to spoons because they are potentially dangerous? or paper? or magnets?

Antbert

aDeener wrote: »

so you are actually saying that to be against something because its potentially dangerous is not downright silly?

what would you say to me if i said i was opposed to spoons because they are potentially dangerous? or paper? or magnets?

The potential in nationalism is to discriminate against other nations. The danger lies in how far they take this discrimination.

It's not my only reason for disliking nationalism. I also don't understand it and don't like the unpleasant attitude displayed by many nationalists (such as on this thread).

Gerard.C

Antbert wrote: »

So... No answer yeah?

Nope, I just cant handle your superior knowledge!

Anyone who claims I am "looking for reasons for Irish pride" ... please. You expect a response to that sort of rubbish? Get real for **** sake