Change the National Anthem, Amhrán na bhFiann??

Antbert

seekers wrote: »

Patriotism is love of ones own country, something which has fallen out of fashion, in the past people died for it. now it is about pride in ones own place in the country. people put in enormous effort in preserving the environment, cleaning towns and villages, preserving our traditions, playing our games. Singing our songs including the national anthem and most important, speaking our language

See now, I don't think any of those things are bad (well, some traditions do not need to be preserved) but you can do that anywhere. I could move to Scotland and I'd probably try to make my house look nice, and recycle things to help the environment. It has nothing to do with my pride in Scotland though.

I dunno where I stand on speaking the language. It's a shame it's dying out, but i'm far from fluent, and have no desire to make myself so.

Antbert

Gerard.C wrote: »

Haha, and thats me done with you....

Could you possibly have highlighted my point any better?

You're done with me because I wasn't born in Ireland (my mother's Irish and I'm a dual citizen, also point thoroughly missed as I was asking in general why one would be proud of their place of birth). THAT is a prime example of potentially dangerous patriotism.

Thank you for shooting yourself in the foot.

Good day.

Gerard.C

Antbert wrote: »

Could you possibly have highlighted my point any better?

You're done with me because I wasn't born in Ireland (my mother's Irish and I'm a dual citizen, also point thoroughly missed as I was asking in general why one would be proud of their place of birth). THAT is a prime example of potentially dangerous patriotism.

Thank you for shooting yourself in the foot.

Good day.

No offence, but I will never have someone who isnt Irish tell me its wrong to be proud of where I'm from. I'm not racist, dont get me wrong. But for someone not even Irish to have the gall to tell me I'm being "dangerous" and say that it is "pointless" for me to be proud to be Irish? How dare you.

Antbert

Gerard.C wrote: »

No offence, but I will never have someone who isnt Irish tell me its wrong to be proud of where I'm from. I'm not racist, dont get me wrong. But for someone not even Irish to have the gall to tell me I'm being "dangerous" and say that it is "pointless" for me to be proud to be Irish? How dare you.

Excuse me.

First of all, this is not exclusive to Ireland. I would likewise tell an Australian that I think Australian-based patriotism is pointless and potentially dangerous. Would that be ok? Since I was born there?

Second of all, even though because I wasn't born here my opinion is worthless to you (dear Christ, you even almost said "I'm not racist but...") maybe you'll reconsider whether or not I've anything valid to say if I tell you I've lived here since I was 2 (now 22), I have an Irish passport and my mother's Irish.

If you reconsider based on this, then you're pretty much the absolute epitome of the unpleasant patriot I'm talking about. If you can't see why there's no point in us arguing further.

Gerard.C

Antbert wrote: »

Excuse me.

First of all, this is not exclusive to Ireland. I would likewise tell an Australian that I think Australian-based patriotism is pointless and potentially dangerous. Would that be ok? Since I was born there?

Second of all, even though because I wasn't born here my opinion is worthless to you (dear Christ, you even almost said "I'm not racist but...") maybe you'll reconsider whether or not I've anything valid to say if I tell you I've lived here since I was 2 (now 22), I have an Irish passport and my mother's Irish.

If you reconsider based on this, then you're pretty much the absolute epitome of the unpleasant patriot I'm talking about. If you can't see why there's no point in us arguing further.

I don't care if its not exclusive to Ireland - Australian patriotism doesnt in the least bit concern me. Hence, I dont have an opinion on it. I'm sure Australians have a very rich history, and have every right to be patriotic. I dont know it myself, so i would never dare tell them they shouldn't be patriotic.

I didn't almost say "I'm not racist, but...". Please dont ever put words in my mouth again.

To be honest, how long you have lived here is irrelevant to me. If you're not proud to be Irish, fair enough. But dont ever put another person down for being proud of their nationality. That is unbelieveably snobby of you. Nationality is something I, and many others, hold dear and are very proud of. There is no reason whatsoever that my pariotism should bother you. Unless, of course, you are stuck in the 80's and think I'm about to blow half of London up. Then, I'm afraid, that's your problem

Antbert

Gerard.C wrote: »

I don't care if its not exclusive to Ireland - Australian patriotism doesnt in the least bit concern me. Hence, I dont have an opinion on it. I'm sure Australians have a very rich history, and have every right to be patriotic. I dont know it myself, so i would never dare tell them they shouldn't be patriotic.

I didn't almost say "I'm not racist, but...". Please dont ever put words in my mouth again.

To be honest, how long you have lived here is irrelevant to me. If you're not proud to be Irish, fair enough. But dont ever put another person down for being proud of their nationality. That is unbelieveably snobby of you. Nationality is something I, and many others, hold dear and are very proud of. There is no reason whatsoever that my pariotism should bother you. Unless, of course, you are stuck in the 80's and think I'm about to blow half of London up. Then, I'm afraid, that's your problem

Thought you were done talking to me because I wasn't born in Ireland?

Can't resist this:

Gerard.C wrote: »

I'm not racist, dont get me wrong. But

dlofnep

Gerard, I believe the point that he's trying to make is that you can't be proud of something that you have no choice in.

But at the same point - proudness isn't something that there is a clear definition of. I mean, if your child graduates from university - you would be proud of them, despite them putting in the hard work in college. In the same respect, you can be proud of Ireland as a nation, or the Irish people as a collective for what they've overcome. You can be proud to be a "part" of that nation. And there is nothing dangerous with that.

However, it is dangerous when you use your nationality as a invisible bubble on who's opinion is valid, and who's isn't. It can be dangerous when it becomes an "us versus them" dispute.

In any case, both of you are antagonizing each other. Gerard, by trying to disregard Antbert's views because he wasn't born here, and Antbert by trying to be the thought police - dictating what can or cannot make someone proud.

Both of you should just accept that you won't meet on this issue and drop it. It won't go anywhere.

Gerard.C

Antbert wrote: »

Thought you were done talking to me because I wasn't born in Ireland?

Can't resist this:

Nope, I'm done now though, as I might aswell be talking to the wall.Good luck to ya

edit - you replied to me twice since I said i was done with you. Wonder why you didnt mention it in either of those replies, and just gave a snarky reply the last time...

Michaelrsh

I hope you realise that the opening lines of the national anthem aren't referring to that party that everyone seems to hate nowadays (a.k.a. Fianna Fáil).

The opening lines mean roughly - "We are soldiers of destiny, we pledge our allegiance to Ireland ...". Something alone those lines anyway. "Fianna Fáil", as far as I know means "Soldiers of Destiny".

If anything, I think that Fianna Fáil (the political party) should change it's name. Maybe just take the 'fada' off the 'a' in 'Fáil' - "Fianna Fail".

Min

Ireland, Ireland
Together standing small
Shoulder to shoulder
We watch Ireland's fall

Thats the post Celtic tiger version.

Gerard.C

dlofnep wrote: »

Gerard, I believe the point that he's trying to make is that you can't be proud of something that you have no choice in.

But at the same point - proudness isn't something that there is a clear definition of. I mean, if your child graduates from university - you would be proud of them, despite them putting in the hard work in college. In the same respect, you can be proud of Ireland as a nation, or the Irish people as a collective for what they've overcome. You can be proud to be a "part" of that nation. And there is nothing dangerous with that.

However, it is dangerous when you use your nationality as a invisible bubble on who's opinion is valid, and who's isn't. It can be dangerous when it becomes an "us versus them" dispute.

In any case, both of you are antagonizing each other. Gerard, by trying to disregard Antbert's views because he wasn't born here, and Antbert by trying to be the thought police - dictating what can or cannot make someone proud.

Both of you should just accept that you won't meet on this issue and drop it. It won't go anywhere.

I see where you're coming from, but of course I can be proud to be Irish. If I could change my place of birth to anyplace else in the world, I wouldnt. I honest to god feel blessed to have been born here. I am in no hurry to ever move from Ireland. Nobody has the right to tell me I shouldnt be proud of where I'm from.

upandcumming

Stinicker wrote: »

Sinne Fianna Fáil...... I know Fianna Fáil doesn't directly represent the party but I think it is national shame to have such words of national disgrace on our National anthem. The swastika represents many things but it is still banned in Germany. Surely if we are to collectivly move on as nation we must begin the cleaning process and as a symbolic act against this political entity we should remove references to it from our National Anthem.

Not since the days of Oliver Cromwell and the Auxiliries (Black and Tans) has any group commited such acts against the Irish people and its economy. What we are witnessing is akin to the Nazi's theft of the Jewish wealth and art which ended up in Swiss banks. Ireland is being bankrupted while the developers and FF elite are creaming off enourmous sums of money at the expense of everyone else. :mad: Cronie Capitalism at its worst

The party took it from the anthem did they not? And its Sinne Laochra Fail

Antbert

Gerard.C wrote: »

I see where you're coming from, but of course I can be proud to be Irish. If I could change my place of birth to anyplace else in the world, I wouldnt. I honest to god feel blessed to have been born here. I am in no hurry to ever move from Ireland. Nobody has the right to tell me I shouldnt be proud of where I'm from.

I wouldn't change my birth place either. Because it's completely ****ing meaningless.

So we agree on something.

Gerard.C

Antbert wrote: »

I wouldn't change my birth place either. Because it's completely ****ing meaningless.

So we agree on something.

Do you support Australia when they play a sport?

Antbert

Gerard.C wrote: »

Do you support Australia when they play a sport?

Oh hello again!

I don't follow any sport. No interest in who wins.

Gerard.C

Antbert wrote: »

Oh hello again!

I don't follow any sport. No interest in who wins.

Well you are just a barrel of fun.

No need for the sly "Oh hello again!" either. You responded to something I said to someone else, taking what I said in a completely different context.

Right, we get it. You dont do the whole being patriotic thing. Good on ya. I'd give you a medal, but, y'know.... you've no interest in people winning things either

Antbert

Gerard.C wrote: »

Well you are just a barrel of fun.

No need for the sly "Oh hello again!" either. You responded to something I said to someone else, taking what I said in a completely different context.

Right, we get it. You dont do the whole being patriotic thing. Good on ya. I'd give you a medal, but, y'know.... you've no interest in people winning things either

Hmm. Well, I'm interested in computer games. But I wouldn't just assume someone who wasn't interested in computer games wasn't fun. So maybe I'm not a barrel of fun by your standards (actually, almost certainly not) but your point there is redudant.

You get very affronted by a cheerful greeting.

And er... OK.

(See how I didn't break up your post?)

Gerard.C

Antbert wrote: »

Hmm. Well, I'm interested in computer games. But I wouldn't just assume someone who wasn't interested in computer games wasn't fun. So maybe I'm not a barrel of fun by your standards (actually, almost certainly not) but your point there is redudant.

You get very affronted by a cheerful greeting.

And er... OK.

(See how I didn't break up your post?)

Right yeah

El Siglo

Thread fail.

TheBigLebowski

Worst thread ever. I can't believe I read the whole thing this far.

Antbert

I dunno. I kind of enjoyed it towards the end.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

dlofnep wrote: »

Gerard, I believe the point that he's trying to make is that you can't be proud of something that you have no choice in.

What a load of rubbish, of course you can. People just hate seeing other people being proud of their nationality, why? Let them on.

Gerard.C

Elyse Magnificent Ref wrote: »

What a load of rubbish, of course you can. People just hate seeing other people being proud of their nationality, why? Let them on.

but... but... but its pointless!!! and dangerous!!! :rolleyes:

aDeener

Antbert wrote: »

Excuse me.

First of all, this is not exclusive to Ireland. I would likewise tell an Australian that I think Australian-based patriotism is pointless and potentially dangerous. Would that be ok? Since I was born there?

Second of all, even though because I wasn't born here my opinion is worthless to you (dear Christ, you even almost said "I'm not racist but...") maybe you'll reconsider whether or not I've anything valid to say if I tell you I've lived here since I was 2 (now 22), I have an Irish passport and my mother's Irish.

If you reconsider based on this, then you're pretty much the absolute epitome of the unpleasant patriot I'm talking about. If you can't see why there's no point in us arguing further.

ffs thats such a lousy argument. potentially dangerous? :rolleyes: anything can be potentially dangerous.........

*looks around the room..... a pen can be potentially dangerous, a spoon can be potentially dangerous.

Antbert

aDeener wrote: »

ffs thats such a lousy argument. potentially dangerous? :rolleyes: anything can be potentially dangerous.........

*looks around the room..... a pen can be potentially dangerous, a spoon can be potentially dangerous.

On a very minor scale, let us look at the attitude of someone considering that someone who doesn't sing the national anthem with pride as an ignorant pig. Or maybe someone disregarding an opinion because they weren't born in Ireland.

Dangerous in the sense that I think he's going to seek me out? No. But this attitude in a massive group of people is pretty unpleasant.

aDeener

Antbert wrote: »

On a very minor scale, let us look at the attitude of someone considering that someone who doesn't sing the national anthem with pride as an ignorant pig. Or maybe someone disregarding an opinion because they weren't born in Ireland.

Dangerous in the sense that I think he's going to seek me out? No. But this attitude in a massive group of people is pretty unpleasant.

dangerous ≠ unpleasant

Antbert

aDeener wrote: »

dangerous ≠ unpleasant

Potentially dangerous.

The unpleasant attitude of disregarding the opinion has the potential to be dangerous.

Gerard.C

Antbert wrote: »

On a very minor scale, let us look at the attitude of someone considering that someone who doesn't sing the national anthem with pride as an ignorant pig. Or maybe someone disregarding an opinion because they weren't born in Ireland.

Dangerous in the sense that I think he's going to seek me out? No. But this attitude in a massive group of people is pretty unpleasant.

Do you even have the slightest clue of the history that is in our anthem? Yes, people should sing it with pride, I firmly believe that. It is disrespectful to those who fought for our freedom to not sing it with pride.

And the fact that you were not born in Ireland was only a tiny part of the reason I completely disregard your opinion, trust me on that.

gonnaplayrugby

in just 15 minutes we will hear irelands call sung proudly by the 70,000 in attendance, they will mumble another anthem beforehand tho.

look at the players faces as they belt out irelands call...feel the passion....
irelands call will be the anthem of a united ireland. what a great day it will be played when the international soccer team is playing and in the all ireland gah finals are on

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Antbert wrote: »

On a very minor scale, let us look at the attitude of someone considering that someone who doesn't sing the national anthem with pride as an ignorant pig. Or maybe someone disregarding an opinion because they weren't born in Ireland.

Dangerous in the sense that I think he's going to seek me out? No. But this attitude in a massive group of people is pretty unpleasant.

What a silly thing to say. This isn't America.

Antbert wrote: »

Potentially dangerous.

The unpleasant attitude of disregarding the opinion has the potential to be dangerous.

It has been disregarded because it's a rediculous sentiment.