False No Usage Limit Claims With UPC

bk

Everyone here is missing the main point.

Caps are probably a necessary evil. What is wrong is advertising your service as unlimited and then having a real hard cap.

This means customers can't fairly compare the products from different ISP's.

All I'm asking for is real simple, be up front about what your caps are and the consequences of exceeding the cap.

hightower1

I really wish UPC would state the cap on their site at this stage if only to shut the upc trolls up from whinging and having this circular argument every week :pac:

novarock

250 gig is not a hard cap. 80 euro a month should not equate to 560 gig of data. Since the very day broadband has been in ireland contention ratios have been in place. There would be very few places in the world if any that will offer leased lines to home users. The problem and cost involved all comes down to backhaul.

It is true that if you are hammering your connection for an hour using torrents or FTP that you are affecting the users in your contention pipe. Fair enough though, they shouldnt market it as truly unlimited, and to be honest, from previous experience working for an ISP, if you were the only one in your area downloading such huge amounts, and you weren't really affecting other users, they would probably leave you alone.

zeris

bealtine wrote: »

Holland (anywhere but Ireland)

Care to name an ISP in Holland? I could do with a similar ISP in the UK also.

Jonathan

bealtine wrote: »

Who suggested that? The user still pays regardless of the cap.

It still costs exactly the same to provide the data before the cap as after the cap.

As zeris says, it is more complicated than that.

Mobile operators enforce a cap to keep usage below a certain level. Above that level economies of scale cease to exist. link

The same applies for fixed broadband. If caps didn't exist and people could download what they wanted, UPC would need a much larger backhaul network, only for it to sit idle most of the time. This way they can use a smaller backhaul network more efficiently.

Cabaal

No caps means more expensive products in order to make the business model work
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=58094826&postcount=11

hightower1

Cabaal wrote: »

No caps means more expensive products in order to make the business model work
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=58094826&postcount=11

But sure cabaal as soon as the put the price up then there'd be a new thing to have a go at. You cant win with some people just ignore the cranks and look the the facts.......More people are happy with UPC than unhappy and they are the fastest growing and most innovative ISP for it. Its one of the small number of products I use that i feel I get what I pay for but sure there will always be the one or two whiners for the sake of attention.

I'm sure this will come up time and time again however. :rolleyes:

bk

hightower1 wrote: »

But sure cabaal as soon as the put the price up then there'd be a new thing to have a go at. You cant win with some people just ignore the cranks and look the the facts.......More people are happy with UPC than unhappy and they are the fastest growing and most innovative ISP for it. Its one of the small number of products I use that i feel I get what I pay for but sure there will always be the one or two whiners for the sake of attention.

Yes, that is all fine and good, but they are lying on their advertising about being unlimited, at a time when almost all other ISP's are properly disclosing their caps.

I don't have any major problem with caps. I do however have two problems:

1) The cap should be clearly identified up front, no lying about being unlimited.

2) Caps in Ireland seem to be much lower for broadband products, which cost far more then equivalent products across Europe (including UPC themselves). I smell an element of rip off Ireland here, due to lack of competition.

dub45

hightower1 wrote: »

But sure cabaal as soon as the put the price up then there'd be a new thing to have a go at. You cant win with some people just ignore the cranks and look the the facts.......More people are happy with UPC than unhappy and they are the fastest growing and most innovative ISP for it. Its one of the small number of products I use that i feel I get what I pay for but sure there will always be the one or two whiners for the sake of attention.

I'm sure this will come up time and time again however. :rolleyes:

UPC have absolutely no qualms about putting their prices up as they displayed at the beginning of this year when they put some of their prices up by 20% and 331/3%. In the process they also drove a coach and four through their own terms and conditions. They also have a clause in their Terms and Conditions which allows them to put their prices up by up to 15% without the customer being able to terminate the contract. This at a time when prices are supposedly going down by 5% per annum.

It is quite incredibly when an apparently otherwise intelligent person describes as 'cranks' people who point out that a company is not behaving honestly:rolleyes: It is also ironic to read Hightowers appeal to look at the 'facts'.

The facts are that noone is forcing UPC to have an 'unlimited' product that is their choice. They are attempting to attract people who download large files:

Suitable for: anyone who downloads large files, challenges other gamers around the world, and busy homes as our FREE wireless router lets more than one person go online at a time.

The fact is that any company that offers an 'unlimited' product and then implements a cap is being dishonest no matter who it is.

As I have pointed out here before surely on boards we should be demanding high standards from all companies and not defending the likes of UPC simply because they offer a fast product?

And as for this coming up 'time and time again' well lets hope it does until UPC and any company who misleads potential customers start behaving honourably!

dub45

Jonathan wrote: »

As zeris says, it is more complicated than that.

Mobile operators enforce a cap to keep usage below a certain level. Above that level economies of scale cease to exist. link

The same applies for fixed broadband. If caps didn't exist and people could download what they wanted, UPC would need a much larger backhaul network, only for it to sit idle most of the time. This way they can use a smaller backhaul network more efficiently.

That doesnt justify them deliberately misleading people. All they have to do is tell people what the cap on a product is - why is that so hard? Nothing complicated at all about telling the truth?:rolleyes:

dub45

Cabaal wrote: »

No caps means more expensive products in order to make the business model work
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=58094826&postcount=11

No one is asking in this instance for no caps:rolleyes: Just honesty.

Cabaal

dub45 wrote: »

No one is asking in this instance for no caps:rolleyes: Just honesty.

Rolleyes seems to be your popular come back these days,

Plain and simple dub, complain to ASAI and whoever else is relevant in respect of advertising and regulation for UPC and telecoms in general (don't forget to complain about Smart as well and its "Unlimited*" offering).

Until one of those bodys rules that UPC or Smart or whoever are doing something wrong then you can say all you want uintil the cows come home but they are perfectly legal.

Instead of people re-starting this very debate every other week they might want to actually start a proper compaign and put some time into it.......time that they just keep wasting going around in circles with the same debate.

If they used their time towards a proper compaign for "honesty" in advertising (your words not mine) instead of slagging UPC here it would likely be alot more helpful in actually resolving (or atleast getting an official response) in respect of the issue that bothers you so much.

While your at it don't forget to get all the fixed line operators, mobile phone providers etc to declare that all their products are not unlimited either

bk

Cabaal wrote: »

Plain and simple dub, complain to ASAI and whoever else is relevant in respect of advertising and regulation for UPC and telecoms in general (don't forget to complain about Smart as well and its "Unlimited*" offering).

FYI, Digiweb/Smart eventually dropped the Unlimited claim from their website after a lot of complaining on the smart forums. However they still don't mention the 170GB cap, so only 50% of the way there.

dub45

Cabaal wrote: »

Rolleyes seems to be your popular come back these days,

Plain and simple dub, complain to ASAI and whoever else is relevant in respect of advertising and regulation for UPC and telecoms in general (don't forget to complain about Smart as well and its "Unlimited*" offering).

Until one of those bodys rules that UPC or Smart or whoever are doing something wrong then you can say all you want uintil the cows come home but they are perfectly legal.

Instead of people re-starting this very debate every other week they might want to actually start a proper compaign and put some time into it.......time that they just keep wasting going around in circles with the same debate.

If they used their time towards a proper compaign for "honesty" in advertising (your words not mine) instead of slagging UPC here it would likely be alot more helpful in actually resolving (or atleast getting an official response) in respect of the issue that bothers you so much.

While your at it don't forget to get all the fixed line operators, mobile phone providers etc to declare that all their products are not unlimited either

Asking a company to behave honestly is not 'slagging' them surely? And as for the constantly repeated 'defence' that because others do it its ok for someone else to do it too? That is simply pathetic. There are plenty of things that are 'legal' does that make them right?

Comreg have a clearly stated policy on their website as to how companies should behave who offer 'unlimited' products UPC are not complying with that.

Surely dishonestly should bother us all? Does it not bother you?

vibe666

for anyone actually interested in doing something about it other than getting stuck in the middle of anothe trolls v's fanboys debate you will need to do the following:

1. lodge a complaint with UPC about their unlimited products not being unlimited and there being no clearly set out limits as they are required to do.
2. if that fails to get a resolution (i.e. them agreeing to state the 250gb limit on their products) THEN you can get a reference from them and lodge a complaint with comreg.

comreg won't deal with any complaints unless you have been through your ISP's complaints procedure and failed to have your issue resolved, so this is (apparently) the only way to get anything done.

the particular bit we're interested in is this: http://www.askcomreg.ie/internet/my_provider_has_advertised_an_unlimited_package_%E2%80%93_what_does_that_mean_for_me.5.154.LE.asp

specifically, this bit which is where UPC are falling short:

ComReg would like to advise consumers that any provision of a contract which sets usage thresholds, or describes what constitutes ‘fair’ or ‘acceptable’ use, should be clear and unambiguous, particularly where the service is described as being ‘unlimited’.

Usage thresholds or limits should be clearly set out, as should the manner in which they may be updated or amended.

ComReg expects each service provider to implement a clear, transparent and policy for dealing with customer usage above any set thresholds. The policy should set out the rules for contract termination, including penalties, the charges that shall apply for any use above the threshold/limit, and the policy regarding migration of the customer to other packages, if applicable.

you can submit a query to UPC about the 250gb limit here: http://service.upc.ie/contact/form and if they can't tell you where on their website you can find the information clearly stating the 250gb limit ask to have your query forwarded to the complaints department so you can lodge an official complaint.

once you've done that, if you don't get anywhere then you can contact comreg here: http://www.askcomreg.ie/about_us/form.asp and fill in the details inc. the complaint reference number from upc.

i've just sent a message to upc about it, so if anyne else wants to join me then feel free to hop on board and maybe we can actually get it fixed.

personally, i'd like to see the part of the advertised products that says "unlimited" to have ahyperlink directly to a section of the T&C's qualifying the actual limits and what happens if you go over them. i guess we'll see what happens (if anything).

bluefirefly

wow, and i was thinking of changing to UPC!!
I've seen the ad on the web and before they had the 30mb package there was a * before the word unlimited. And when i read the small print it says that there is a cap of 250gb , fair enough.
After they had the new package, i looked again and there is no * beside the word unlimited AND there's nothing about that in the small prints. I think thats not right. It is false advertising, and thats against some comsumer law.

I'm with eircom. Always go over my cap but never had to pay the charge. Guess i'll stay where i am

vibe666

bluefirefly wrote: »

wow, and i was thinking of changing to UPC!!
I've seen the ad on the web and before they had the 30mb package there was a * before the word unlimited. And when i read the small print it says that there is a cap of 250gb , fair enough.
After they had the new package, i looked again and there is no * beside the word unlimited AND there's nothing about that in the small prints. I think thats not right. It is false advertising, and thats against some comsumer law.

I'm with eircom. Always go over my cap but never had to pay the charge. Guess i'll stay where i am

where did you see the 250gb cap advertised on the UPC website? i'm pretty sure that even our resident UPC fanboys here have conceded that they have never advertised it anywhere other than in the letter they send you when you go significantly over it.

Jonathan

dub45 wrote: »

That doesnt justify them deliberately misleading people. All they have to do is tell people what the cap on a product is - why is that so hard? Nothing complicated at all about telling the truth?:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:

bluefirefly

vibe666 wrote: »

where did you see the 250gb cap advertised on the UPC website? i'm pretty sure that even our resident UPC fanboys here have conceded that they have never advertised it anywhere other than in the letter they send you when you go significantly over it.

before they had the new packages 30mb bb they had the * after the word unlimited and 250gb were included in the small prints.
But i think that was there after people had complained about it? because I'm pretty sure at the early early stage they didnt have that either.
but when they have the new bb package, as of now, its not there anymore.

chuky_r_law

i was on the phone to someone at upc the other day. i was signing up for a digital pack when your man started going about the unlimited broadband pack. now, i had already signed up to this years ago and told him that, and i informed him about a letter i had recently got from them saying i had breached their fair usage policy so it was hardly unlimited if the limit is capped at 250gb. he then informed me that this had nothing to do witih upc and in fact was a limit that the government had imposed! now i dont know if this is true or not but it sounds like a load of baloney to me. i suppose i should have queried him further as to which exact law he was talking about but at the time it slipped my mind. so can anyone tell me if there is such a rule in place, or was this sales guy talking rubbish?

bealtine

chuky_r_law wrote: »

witih upc and in fact was a limit that the government had imposed!

in place, or was this sales guy talking rubbish?

Only one word describes this line of sales patter....bs.

IrishTonyO

chuky_r_law wrote: »

i was on the phone to someone at upc the other day. i was signing up for a digital pack when your man started going about the unlimited broadband pack. now, i had already signed up to this years ago and told him that, and i informed him about a letter i had recently got from them saying i had breached their fair usage policy so it was hardly unlimited if the limit is capped at 250gb. he then informed me that this had nothing to do witih upc and in fact was a limit that the government had imposed! now i dont know if this is true or not but it sounds like a load of baloney to me. i suppose i should have queried him further as to which exact law he was talking about but at the time it slipped my mind. so can anyone tell me if there is such a rule in place, or was this sales guy talking rubbish?

complete rubblish, you should report him and write an official complaint to UPC