Arsenal and their lack of " depth "

OPENROAD

enfant terrible wrote: »

No its not an excuse its an expensive new stadium that has severely limited their spending compared to United and Chelsea.

Wouldn't agree with you 100%, accounts show clearly Arsene has significant funds available i.e we have extra spare cash each year after loan is serviced. We can't be compared to Chelsea, only Man city can, as for utd in the last few years it would seem they do not have adequate funds, looking at the latest set of accounts if it was not for the sale of Ronaldo they would have made a loss.

Arsene is a highly intelligent man with an Economics background and as such is not willing to put the future of the club at stake by over spending on individual players, his philosphy is that Arsenal should live within its means from income earned from the football business, we could all learn something from this imo.

enfant terrible

Mr Alan wrote: »

Arsenal nearly won the league 3 years ago before struggling for top 4 for the following couple of years, ditto for Liverpool who came so close last year and are struggling for 4th now. Anyone talking like this Arsenal team has 'arrived' is jumping the gun big time imo.

They are amazingly well though without their best attacker.

Where would United be now if Rooney was out all season like Van Persie?

Mr Alan

wats to say that won't happen again, for example doesn't it look pretty certain that Gallas is on his way in the summer?

Pepe LeFrits

It might happen again.

Rooney might break his leg at the World Cup.

Roman might give up on Chelsea.

But as it stands, the Arsenal squad is neck and neck with United and Chelsea on merit.

OPENROAD

Mr Alan wrote: »

Arsenal nearly won the league 3 years ago before struggling for top 4 for the following couple of years, ditto for Liverpool who came so close last year and are struggling for 4th now. Anyone talking like this Arsenal team has 'arrived' is jumping the gun big time imo.

I think the big difference is that this young Arsenal team has been progressing over the last few seasons,it is not as if the team have been por the potential over the last few seasons has been clear to see, they certainly have not arrived as the team have yet to win anything but the future looks good and the clubs financial situation looks even better.

OPENROAD

Mr Alan wrote: »

wats to say that won't happen again, for example doesn't it look pretty certain that Gallas is on his way in the summer?

As said Arsene has enough funds to replace him.

leninbenjamin

Everyone knows Arsenal need a new striker despite having 4 on the books, that we lack a quality DM despite Song being our best player for much of the season, that having 50% more injuries than the other rivals is simply a meaningless statistic that has no impact on Arsenal's title chances, that Wenger is an idiot because he hasn't bankrupted the club, that Arsenal are midgets despite 6 starters being 6ft or above, that Arsenal don't give enough opportunities to English players despite...

lots of myths about Arsenal in the media, some of them were relevant once, some of them are simply lazy journalism...

Anyway, I think talk of the squad and transfers is pointless. This current Arsenal team has two distinct problems that have held them back in the past:

1. Mentality. They are quite fragile mentally, the get nervous defending a lead, the heads sometimes go down too quickly and other times they completely lose their composure. This is primarily down to the level of youth and inexperience in the squad probably. There are signs this is changing, the departure of Ade and Touré seems to have increased morale, the number of goals scored in the last 10 minutes of a game seems to have significantly increased, Sol's return seems to have had an impact as well, they are grinding out results where they wouldn't have last season.

2. Injuries. Despite what people might think, the level of injuries at the club is a major problem. United's injury crises was simply bad luck and unfortunate timing imo, but Arsenal's seems different, there is always someone out, it's systematic in its occurrence. There sees to be something wrong at the club to cause this, perhaps the firmness of the pitches, the training regime, possibly even diet or the backroom staff. Simply adding to the squad wont fix this, we could easily end up in a situation where we've 6 or 7 players for a single position persistently getting injured. Arsene is aware of this, but he's not having any luck pinning it down. Until the route cause of the persistent injuries is unearthed, this team will struggle to fulfil their full potential.

Mr Alan

OPENROAD wrote: »

As said Arsene has enough funds to replace him.

Wat if the replacement doesn't work out?

leninbenjamin

Mr Alan wrote: »

Wat if the replacement doesn't work out?

the sky will fall on our heads

Frisbee

Mr Alan wrote: »

Wat if the replacement doesn't work out?

I don't get what point your trying to make here.

me-skywalker

Your guaranteed that Ferguson will sign a new striker in the summer.

You can also be guaranteed that United will finish ahead of Arsenal thsi season with players like Carrick and Fletcher and Giggs playign in defence.....

Ferdinand, Vidic, Evans, O'Shea, Brown, Rafael, Fabio, Neville... All injured at the same time. You tell me if Arsenal could cope without Gallas, Vermaelan, Clichy, Sagna, Silvestre, Djourou,Campbell, Gibbs.. ALL missing at the SAME time?

OPENROAD

Mr Alan wrote: »

Wat if the replacement doesn't work out?

True may not work out,but that is the same with any signing, point is we have funds to get a replacement for Gallas if he does move on

Mr Alan

Openroad, i agree, the future certainly looks good-in order for it to remain that way imo cesc needs to stay for the next few years. I'm just pointing out its a tad foolish to start mouthing off like big shots when you've still won **** all-the op stating the title race was between Arsenal and Chelsea was particularly idiotic.

Mr Alan

OPENROAD wrote: »

True may not work out,but that is the same with any signing, point is we have funds to get a replacement for Gallas if he does move on

The funds thing really does remain to be seen, we've heard the same for years yet weakness's in the team were still ignored

Frisbee

Mr Alan wrote: »

the op stating the title race was between Arsenal and Chelsea was particularly idiotic.

That goes without saying.

leninbenjamin

me-skywalker wrote: »

Your guaranteed that Ferguson will sign a new striker in the summer.

You can also be guaranteed that United will finish ahead of Arsenal thsi season with players like Carrick and Fletcher and Giggs playign in defence.....

Ferdinand, Vidic, Evans, O'Shea, Brown, Rafael, Fabio, Neville... All injured at the same time. You tell me if Arsenal could cope without Gallas, Vermaelan, Clichy, Sagna, Silvestre, Djourou,Campbell, Gibbs.. ALL missing at the SAME time?

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Almunia

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Eboué---Song----Diaby---Traoré

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Denilson

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Cesc----Nasri

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Walcott

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Arshavin

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God

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not too bad tbh, would struggle against teams in the top half obviously, but should be able to see off midtable and relegation strugglers. Diaby could be got at, but all the others are playing in their natural position.

Mr Alan

but it didn't go without seeing for a lot of people, a lot of Arsenal fans swooped around whooping and hollering about how amazing their squad was, the same squad they were pissing and moaning about last year and after any defeat this year

leninbenjamin

Mr Alan wrote: »

I'm just pointing out its a tad foolish to start mouthing off like big shots when you've still won **** all-the op stating the title race was between Arsenal and Chelsea was particularly idiotic.

You're holding that idiotic statement by a single Arsenal fan against all the rest of us?

OPENROAD

Mr Alan wrote: »

The funds thing really does remain to be seen, we've heard the same for years yet weakness's in the team were still ignored

Well it is clear to see in the accounts that surplus cash is there i.e. after the loan is serviced each year we still have spare cash, but what is clear is that Arsene will not waste the cash, he will not spend for the sake of spending, just becuase the cash is there does not mean you spend especially if he believes that they players he already has will progress.

Frisbee

Mr Alan wrote: »

but it didn't go without seeing for a lot of people, a lot of Arsenal fans swooped around whooping and hollering about how amazing their squad was, the same squad they were pissing and moaning about last year and after any defeat this year

True, but a squad having depth and a squad having strength in depth are two different things.

Silvestre offers depth, but he still shouldn't be near the squad imo.

Headshot

OPENROAD wrote: »

A question for utd supporters, how do you feel you guys would cope without Rooney for a good part of the season?

we have cover

we have the one ( touch wood it never happens mind you)

leninbenjamin

Mr Alan wrote: »

The funds thing really does remain to be seen, we've heard the same for years yet weakness's in the team were still ignored

Oh yeah, just on this. The club were able to service over £100m worth of their debt in a six month period, there probably isn't another club in the world that could do this without resorting to outside investment. Funds should be fine.

OPENROAD

Mr Alan wrote: »

but it didn't go without seeing for a lot of people, a lot of Arsenal fans swooped around whooping and hollering about how amazing their squad was, the same squad they were pissing and moaning about last year and after any defeat this year

Well I certainly wasn't moaning,how could someone moan with the football we have been playing over the last few years, I have also said as a st holder that the fact that we have not won anything is of no real concern to me.

me-skywalker

leninbenjamin wrote: »

---

Almunia

---

Eboué---Song----Diaby---Traoré

---

Denilson

---

---

Cesc----Nasri

---

Walcott

---

Arshavin

---

God

---

not too bad tbh, would struggle against teams in the top half obviously, but should be able to see off midtable and relegation strugglers. Diaby could be got at, but all the others are playing in their natural position.

Eboue naturally gonna attack. Traore very young and inexperienced, Diaby and Song both being played in Mid-field and might struggle to keep their tactical defensive brain in order. Would be very easy to get at that back 4. imagine Sam allardyce seeing that?

The original arguement was ridiculous anyway the depth in each squad is relative to their own formation and tactical nouse. But United have had the bigger probelms to use there fringe players and still manage to be ontop of the league. I think if Arsenal had them problems then they wouldn't be where they are now. Same with Chelsea. Can see now the whole Terry thing and how tahts affecting them.

Frisbee

me-skywalker wrote: »

I think if Arsenal had them problems then they wouldn't be where they are now.

We've played a midget up front for over a month as all our other 4 forwards were injured.

Sol Campbell and Mikael Silvestre both actually get games for us.

We were stuck playing our 3rd and then 4th choice left back for several weeks.

They're pretty big injury problems tbf and we're still right up there.

leninbenjamin

me-skywalker wrote: »

Eboue naturally gonna attack. Traore very young and inexperienced, Diaby and Song both being played in Mid-field and might struggle to keep their tactical defensive brain in order. Would be very easy to get at that back 4. imagine Sam allardyce seeing that?

Eboué is one of the hardest workers in the squad. People only remember the flashy side to his game, but he covers a huge amount of ground, makes plenty of tackles and does lots of tracking back if asked. Tbh, he's not a bad RB at all, I think there's a good chance he'd start for United and Chelsea (ahead of Ivanovic) at the moment.

Song is no stranger to the position. He was being groomed as CB by Arsene for a long time. He'd probably be ahead of Silvestre and Sol in the pecking order if it weren't for the fact he's so important to the midfield.

Diaby is an unknown of course, but he's strong and quick and seems to be well capable of adapting his game whenever he is asked.

Troaré we know how weak he can be, but he's still a LB by trade. He's easily dragged out of position, but he did all right all things considered when he had his run in the side.

Anyway, the point is, Arsenal have 9.5 defenders in the squad (0.5 being Song). Obviously I'm biased but I think they'd be as capable of adapting to such a crises as anyone.

OPENROAD

Frisbee wrote: »

We've played a midget up front for over a month as all our other 4 forwards were injured.

.

I don't know why, but I can't stop laughing at this

me-skywalker

Frisbee wrote: »

We've played a midget up front for over a month as all our other 4 forwards were injured.

Sol Campbell and Mikael Silvestre both actually get games for us.

You've actually just proven my point.... You HAVENT had them problems!

If you were missing 8first team defenders... NOT forwards or strikers.


*walks away victorious, another Arsenal 'fan' taught a lesson'

Frisbee

Why is fan in inverted commas?

leninbenjamin

me-skywalker wrote: »

You've actually just proven my point.... You HAVENT had them problems!

If you were missing 8first team defenders... NOT forwards or strikers.

The discussion was about squad depth. Arsenal, despite missing all their strikers for a large portion of the season, and their 1st choice for the majority of it, are still the highest scorers in the league. It's a perfectly valid point. Can YOU say the same about United if all of Rooney, Berba, Owen and Diouf were injured?

And as I pointed out, Arsenal would be in a reasonable position to compensate should 7 defenders be injured at once. Arguably the best of all squads in the league on paper, and until it actually happens that's as strong as assertion as can be made on the issue.

me-skywalker

I get being defensive and supporting your team but as a football fanyourself you have to admit when your wrong. They didnt have major problems like that.

Its hypothetical... but now with vermaelan out for the next 3 games can see on a minor scale how you manage with Silvestre and Campbell at the back for your next 3 Birmingham H Wolves and Spurs away!

OPENROAD

me-skywalker wrote: »

I get being defensive and supporting your team but as a football fanyourself you have to admit when your wrong. They didnt have major problems like that.

Its hypothetical... but now with vermaelan out for the next 3 games can see on a minor scale how you manage with Silvestre and Campbell at the back for your next 3 Birmingham H Wolves and Spurs away!

Out for one game only

leninbenjamin

me-skywalker wrote: »

I get being defensive and supporting your team but as a football fanyourself you have to admit when your wrong. They didnt have major problems like that.

Fair enough, I always thought the striker was an important part to a team's success... I never knew the presence of Denis Law, Mark Hughes, Eric Cantona, Dwight Yorke, Ronaldo had no bearing on a teams success.

me-skywalker

See this is why I stay away from the sports forums as you get a pack of pretentious ignorant with little knowledge of the sport of football throwing out their opinions thinking their flawless and unobjectionally correct.

Fair enough stay that way. Start watching more football as a fan of the sport and not as a fan of a team and you'll be very interested in some things you see... or maybe not.

MementoMori

Hypothetical question - Remind me again how much the Arsenal squad cost compared to Utd and Chelsea?

And there is debate about them lacking in squad "depth"

SlickRic

how can you say this...

me-skywalker wrote: »

See this is why I stay away from the sports forums as you get a pack of pretentious ignorant with little knowledge of the sport of football throwing out their opinions thinking their flawless and unobjectionally correct.

without implying in saying it that you yourself are someone who thinks their opinion is flawless and unobjectionally correct?

be a bit more civil, and you might get a discussion.

Jazzy

who'd have thunk god would still be playing after 13 billion years. legend

Royale with Cheese

Why are you replying to that guy? He's the one who started that ridiculous thread about how Wenger should get the sack. He clearly has a problem with both Arsenal and reasonable thought.

SDTimeout

I find it strange how people are bashing me in a way for an opinion. I've seen Mr Alan come out with far more outlandish claims and it's just expected. In my opinion it's going to be between Arsenal and Chelsea and i'll be gladly proved wrong if united can keep going.

Fuhrer

SDTimeout wrote: »

I find it strange how people are bashing me in a way for an opinion. I've seen Mr Alan come out with far more outlandish claims and it's just expected. In my opinion it's going to be between Arsenal and Chelsea and i'll be gladly proved wrong if united can keep going.

Probably because you wont justify why you have that opinion with anything approaching a sensible argument.


Both United & Chelsea have been missing big players for long parts of the season, in Uniteds case almost an entire Defense, any member of which would probably walk into Arsenals defense, And despite this both United and Chelsea have swatted Arsenal away recently with minimal effort.

OPENROAD

Fuhrer wrote: »

Probably because you wont justify why you have that opinion with anything approaching a sensible argument.


Both United & Chelsea have been missing big players for long parts of the season, in Uniteds case almost an entire Defense, any member of which would probably walk into Arsenals defense, And despite this both United and Chelsea have swatted Arsenal away recently with minimal effort.

And so have Arsenal both defensively and our main striker, it does not matter if utd and chelsea have beaten Arsenal

Xavi6

me-skywalker wrote: »

See this is why I stay away from the sports forums as you get a pack of pretentious ignorant with little knowledge of the sport of football throwing out their opinions thinking their flawless and unobjectionally correct.

Fair enough stay that way. Start watching more football as a fan of the sport and not as a fan of a team and you'll be very interested in some things you see... or maybe not.

We can do without comments thrown down from a high horse thanks very much.

Don't post in this thread again.

Fuhrer

OPENROAD wrote: »

And so have Arsenal both defensively and our main striker, it does not matter if utd and chelsea have beaten Arsenal

Arsenal have been missing 7 defenders and their main goalkeeper?

SDTimeout

Fuhrer wrote: »

Probably because you wont justify why you have that opinion with anything approaching a sensible argument.


Both United & Chelsea have been missing big players for long parts of the season, in Uniteds case almost an entire Defense, any member of which would probably walk into Arsenals defense, And despite this both United and Chelsea have swatted Arsenal away recently with minimal effort.

Don't know how you think i won't justify it considering i've not responded to anything aimed re my orginal point

From what i've been brought up knowing anyway an opinion is what a person thinks will happen, an opinion can usually only be put down in such a manor if there is a hard fact to back it up. Now unless some of the cliqué on boards who jump on one not run of the mill opinion to get a few one ups have a time machine, there is no reason for the complete ott reaction to my opinion.

So if i need to give a reason for why i think they won't win the league alright. United have lost 6 times this season, 5 of them coming away from home.
Bolton Wanderers v Manchester United
Blackburn Rovers v Manchester United
Manchester City v Manchester United
Sunderland v Manchester United

We knew the story about the city game, and everything in the aftermath. City will be desperate to get a point or three from this match.
Sunderland have one of the best home records in the PL winning 7 losing 2 and only narrowly DREW with united thanks to an own goal.
Bolton are a proven bogey team, not to mention united were far from convincing from beating them earlier in the season. The only one i'd be confident enough on was the blackburn game
Not to mention the home games are against spurs, pool and chelsea. Spurs who will be fighting for 4th, pool who have a great record against united and i think will snatch a win tomorrow and chelsea will be also playing for league contention.

So thats why i think united will not be in contention for the league come at the end of the season.

MementoMori

SDTimeout wrote: »

I find it strange how people are bashing me in a way for an opinion. I've seen Mr Alan come out with far more outlandish claims and it's just expected. In my opinion it's going to be between Arsenal and Chelsea and i'll be gladly proved wrong if united can keep going.

I don't think people are bashing you just because of the opinion but moreso because of the assumptions/opinions you have used as evidence for your opinion.

On the title thread I reckoned it would come down to between Chelsea and Arsenal mainly because I just can't see Rooney keeping up his form for all of the remaining game and I would expect the rest not to be able to win those games when he inevitably has a quiet day. No-one seemed to have any major problem with it. [I'm not saying that people didn't/don't disagree with my opinion but I'm sure most United fans would agree that a massive part of how do overall this season will depend on how Rooney performs] but there didn't seem to be any issue with understand it was my opinion and why I formed it.

You on the other hand said you

don't see anderson or fletcher as depth, let alone owen and diouf

and then used that to justify your belief that it would be between Arsenal and Chelsea for the title.

However you may rate the players themselves, your statement that you don't see them as squad depth is demonstrably false.

Fletcher has made 32 appearances this season and scored 4 goals.
Owen has made 31 appearances this season and scored 9 goals.
Anderson has made 23 appearances this season and scored 1 goal.
Diouf has made 6 appearance write ofs this seaon and scored 1 goal

All have appeared in a number of matches for Utd and all have scored goals. Whether the individuals have been performed well enough to be part of a Utd squad challenging for the title is an entirely seperate matter from what you were claiming, which was they didn't offer add anything to the squad depth.

The fact that you then use this demonstrably false statement to entirely
write off United's chance of a title just pushes your OP into the not really in touch with how the real world operates category.

Also everyone know what Mr Alan is like with his outlandish claims.;)

OPENROAD

Fuhrer wrote: »

Arsenal have been missing 7 defenders and their main goalkeeper?

No we were not missig seven defenders but Arsenal have had their fair share of injuries and not just this season to key players, remember we have had no recognise striker for a large period of time.

Fuhrer

SDTimeout wrote: »

Don't know how you think i won't justify it considering i've not responded to anything aimed re my orginal point

From what i've been brought up knowing anyway an opinion is what a person thinks will happen, an opinion can usually only be put down in such a manor if there is a hard fact to back it up. Now unless some of the cliqué on boards who jump on one not run of the mill opinion to get a few one ups have a time machine, there is no reason for the complete ott reaction to my opinion.

So if i need to give a reason for why i think they won't win the league alright. United have lost 6 times this season, 5 of them coming away from home.
Bolton Wanderers v Manchester United
Blackburn Rovers v Manchester United
Manchester City v Manchester United
Sunderland v Manchester United

We knew the story about the city game, and everything in the aftermath. City will be desperate to get a point or three from this match.
Sunderland have one of the best home records in the PL winning 7 losing 2 and only narrowly DREW with united thanks to an own goal.
Bolton are a proven bogey team, not to mention united were far from convincing from beating them earlier in the season. The only one i'd be confident enough on was the blackburn game
Not to mention the home games are against spurs, pool and chelsea. Spurs who will be fighting for 4th, pool who have a great record against united and i think will snatch a win tomorrow and chelsea will be also playing for league contention.

So thats why i think united will not be in contention for the league come at the end of the season.

And this has what to do with Uniteds squad depth?


The reason people attack your opinion is simply this, its ll thought out and anytime you try to defend it you talk about something completly unrelated.

United, despite having am injury crisis that dwarves anything that Arsenal could even have nightmare about are still on course to win the league.


You think if Arsenal were missing Vermalen, Gallas, Whoever the other two are plus three back ups for a large part of the season they would even be in with a sniff?

Answer honestly and on topic.

Pepe LeFrits

Arsenal have had far more injuries this season than United.

MementoMori

SDTimeout wrote: »

Don't know how you think i won't justify it considering i've not responded to anything aimed re my orginal point

From what i've been brought up knowing anyway an opinion is what a person thinks will happen, an opinion can usually only be put down in such a manor if there is a hard fact to back it up. Now unless some of the cliqué on boards who jump on one not run of the mill opinion to get a few one ups have a time machine, there is no reason for the complete ott reaction to my opinion.

So if i need to give a reason for why i think they won't win the league alright. United have lost 6 times this season, 5 of them coming away from home.
Bolton Wanderers v Manchester United
Blackburn Rovers v Manchester United
Manchester City v Manchester United
Sunderland v Manchester United

We knew the story about the city game, and everything in the aftermath. City will be desperate to get a point or three from this match.
Sunderland have one of the best home records in the PL winning 7 losing 2 and only narrowly DREW with united thanks to an own goal.
Bolton are a proven bogey team, not to mention united were far from convincing from beating them earlier in the season. The only one i'd be confident enough on was the blackburn game
Not to mention the home games are against spurs, pool and chelsea. Spurs who will be fighting for 4th, pool who have a great record against united and i think will snatch a win tomorrow and chelsea will be also playing for league contention.

So thats why i think united will not be in contention for the league come at the end of the season.

You are now giving an entirely different reason for your opinion.

So is it the squad depth issue which you stated initially or the nature of the opposition, your reason for the belief that you think United don't have a chance in the title race?

Or is it that you are starting from the point that you want it to come down to Arsenal v Chelsea and are then looking at evidence to back this up?

SDTimeout

Fuhrer wrote: »

And this has what to do with Uniteds squad depth?
The reason people attack your opinion is simply this, its ll thought out and anytime you try to defend it you talk about something completly unrelated.
United, despite having am injury crisis that dwarves anything that Arsenal could even have nightmare about are still on course to win the league.
You think if Arsenal were missing Vermalen, Gallas, Whoever the other two are plus three back ups for a large part of the season they would even be in with a sniff?Answer honestly and on topic.

People very quick to jump but also quick to not re-read. With my whole 6 replys in this thread one has correct the fletcher statement, united have a better depth of defenders than arsenal. Yet Arsenal were missing their biggest goal machine in RVP.
You think if united were missing Rooney and whoever the other two are plus back ups for a large part of the season they would even be in with a sniff?Answer honestly and on topic.