New bike for a strange commute: Tourer or... Charge Tap?

Civilian_Target

I'm looking for a new bike that's got to be able to do a bit of everything.

My daily commute is urban for 15km, followed by about 8km of good road, 3km of alpine climb (avg. 8%) and a gravel path to finish. I need a new bike mostly to tackle this, but that can also hack a couple of full day jaunts for a weekend.

The sensible choice, in my mind at least, would be to get a tourer like the Tifoski CK7 that should serve for years.... but my heart wants me to get a Charge Tap. It looks like it should be fast and fun to ride, and I like hub gears... but I'm not convinced the Shimano Nexus hub is going to survive the mountains! Has anyone got one of these?

Opinions?

droidus

Good thread on hub geared bike options here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055800297&highlight=ALFINE

blorg

I would lean towards the Tifosi or something similar. Charge bikes are heavy expensive and overrated IMO. The Tap lacks upper mounting points for a rack although you could probably get one on the brake caliper hole.

Civilian_Target

Thanks droidus, but I'm coming from a bike with an SRAM 7 internal hub. My experience with the SRAM 7: the first one was seriously durable and did me over 30,000km of service before it died. The replacement unit lasted 8 months, maybe 2,000km. When they do wrong they're truly a bitch. Thats why I'm particularly interested in the durability of the Nexus hub.

Blorg: The lack of upper mounting's a bit of a deal breaker actually, I would be planning to stick on a rack. You've tried the Tap, or similar? Any suggestions in the touring line?

BostonB

What you need is both of them...

blorg

External derailleurs are very reliable; they are just a bit more work to keep clean. I have never used a hub gear but have several fixed and they just keep going even if the drivetrain is filthy. I imagine a hub gear is similar. Bottom line though, certainly don't write off a bike because it has derailleurs.

The key issue really if you are looking at a touring or audax bike is how wide you want to be able to go with the tyres. Tourers effectively divide into ones that will take wide tyres, with cantilever brakes, or ones that are more limited, using long-drop calipers. Effectively the former is generally considered a "tourer" and the latter an "audax." There are probably also geometry differences, the tourer will have a longer wheelbase for stability, but to be honest IMO your choice of tyre width is the biggie.

For your commute an audax bike with 700x28c tyres (often the biggest possible with mudguards) would be fine. To be honest that would be fine on just about any tour either. However there are tours that can involve a bit of light off road (the Camino de Santiago) or indeed the likes of white (unpaved) roads in Italy. For these, loaded, I would want wider tyres in the 700x35-37c range and for that sort of width you generally want the type with canti brakes.

The trade-off is that tourers with canti mounts tend to be heavier than straight up audax bikes, and the braking is not great compared to a caliper. Liveable with, but not great. It may be possible to get it better if you are good at adjusting cantis, theoretically people swear they offer good braking but I have yet to see it.

Stick a triple and a 12-27 on either of these (even consider a compact with the audax if you are going to be more lightly loaded) and you will have a very versatile bike.

BostonB

I asked about hubs from a place in the uk. They reckoned the reliability issues with the 7 speed have been sorted with the 8 speed. They reckoned the sturmley archer units had less problems overall. I dunno if any of that is true I have no experience of them myself.

I'm not convinced that reliability is that bad with dérailleur gears to warrant the weight penalty of a hub gear. Not for commuting any way.

Lumen

For me, the main problem with hub gears is getting them to work with integrated shifters. It seems to come down to a choice of derailleurs and drop bars or hub gears and flat bars, and drops will always win that one, particularly where there are hills.

I've also not used a hub gear that had the same pleasant positive switching feel of a decent derailleur setup, although my experience is limited to Pashley (Sturmey Archer I think) and whatever dublin bikes use.

short circuit

With hub gears, you have a limited range you cannot tweak. If you want to improve lower gears, you have to sacrifice upper end as well. The alfine has a range of just over 300% ... so to climb your hill with rack and or back pack, I would look at something like a 30 gear inch on the low side myself as I am a pretty bad climber and also if you are doing this 5 days in a row, you are bound to get tired by the end of the week. This would mean that I would only get 90 gear inches at the top end. Personally, I would be OK with this as I would rarely cycle faster than this unaided .. but you might be a stronger rider.

Secondly, how bad and long is the gravel section. Could you get by on 25mm tyres or will you need wider ... if you need wider, don't think the tifosi will do you any good.

Personally, I would go for something like the Salsa casserolle ... its up on wiggle right now ... claimed weight is under 10.5kg ... so only about 3kg off the lightest carbon bikes ... will take racks, mud guards, 32mm tyres without mud guards ... 105 triple .. so you get 30 gear inches all the way upto 125 ... and wouldn't disgrace itself on the weekend spin either.

Itsfixed

Sounds like my ideal commute!

I have one of these, and I think it would fit the bill. With the heavier steel fork at the mo, although i'm planning on getting the much lighter carbon fork upgrade at some stage. All the brazings you need, fantastically comfortable, quick and great value. I particularly like how its painted in one classic colour, so it will still look great in 10 years time.

Bought it on the strength of this review in C+.

For hub gears, I would consider a cotic roadrat with the new Alfine 11 speed hub, which has a better range than the 8 speed, i understand, plus disc brakes, although its not available just yet.

Civilian_Target

OK, combined with that Nexus 8 thread and what I'm seeing here, I'm convinced: I'll try a deraileur.

But I understand the Tifosi probably isn't it either, like Blorg and Short Circuit say, 28mm with mudguards is going to be a squeeze on that. The Casserole is the right direction, but a bit on the expensive side: my CC limit is 1000 EUR I saw the http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/Surly_Long_Haul_Trucker_2009/5360042462/ too... and I guess if I can't get something comparable a bit cheaper, that's where I'll end up.

I'll do some scouting online this week, and take a tour of the shops here at the weekend, and let you know what I end up with it. Cheers for the help!

Lumen

Lumen wrote: »

For me, the main problem with hub gears is getting them to work with integrated shifters.

Apparently not.

Doctor Bob

Civilian_Target wrote: »

OK, combined with that Nexus 8 thread and what I'm seeing here, I'm convinced: I'll try a deraileur.

But I understand the Tifosi probably isn't it either

When I mentioned in that thread that...

Doctor Bob wrote: »

I haven't experienced that particular problem with my Nexus 8, but I've had a few other ones over the 4 years I've had the hub.

...I should have added that the few problems have been fairly minor (aside from the one mentioned in the thread that droidus linked to), and I'd recommend hub gears for a lot of purposes. Having said that, I don't think they're what you require for your commute. As noted by the others above, the relatively narrow range would be an issue, as might the shifter (£179 seems a bit steep for the drop bar option, but it's good to know it exists- when it becomes Rohloff-adapted, I'll be all ears!).

I've been eyeing up that Tifosi myself lately (definitely in the grey, not the blue), but I've had the same reservations about the tyre width, so the Casseroll or the Surly LHT might be better bets for some casual light touring.

I've been drooling over the Thorn site a bit too, though I'd probably go for something a bit more tour-y, a bit less audax-y. (NB- according to their website, build times go up to 8 weeks during the summer due to increased demand.)

Anyway, keep us posted! I'd be keen to see what you end up with.

blorg

FWIW £179 is not crazy money for STI shifters, they are expensive things.

Civilian_Target

Hmm... looking around locally the most interesting proposition was to take a Giant TCX 2 and add mudguard, panniers and toe-clip pedals. It should work, but I'm not sure if it's a good plan.

Thorn and Pearson are nice sites but they are stretching the budget a bit. Even my local shop can propose a Cannondale Traveller which is nice, but about 500 euros more than I want to spend.
Something that is on budget and looks promising is the Claud Butler Dalesman... not sure what to make of that.

Overall, still undecided then. It seems aiming at 1500 euros opens a whole lot more options, but it's a lot of money to spend on a bike!

Civilian_Target

So. in the end I bought a Kona Honky Tonk - a steel framed road bike with all the mounts and large enough forks to get size 32 tyres in if I want, but still inside budget.

I slapped mudguards, a rack, a dynamo and headlamp and some toeclips on it, and now it looks like this


I'm not sure what to make of it yet, I'm still acclimatising myself to drops and deraileurs... So far I'm finding the ride is pretty smooth, but the components are pretty rubbish: the double doesn't even go as low as my old hub gears did and the brakes are spongy.

Time will tell...

blorg

Looks nice. Wide tyre brakes on STI levers can be a bit spongy. As to gear ratio, I imagine it goes higher? 50/34 front I imagine. Good for commuting surely? Triple with a 30 better for touring.

Civilian_Target

Yep, it's a 50/34 at the front... but I think I need a 30, and I don't think I'll get much use out of the highest gear wheras there's a 1km section of my commute that averages 8%, so the 50/34 gets me out of my saddle

DualFrontDiscs

What dynamo hub is it? I have the Schmidt SON. Very nice bit of equipment.

DFD*

*DynamosForDarkness

BostonB

Out of curiosity what was the previous bike and why did you get this one?

Bluefoam

I got the Charge Tap recently. Its fantastic bike. All the worries I had about the weight & not having enough gears were gone after 30 mins of ownership & it looks the dogs bollox.

Cetyl Palmitate

Bluefoam, I've been looking at the Charge tap as well recently. Do you anyone bike shops in Dublin that would have them around to take for a tet ride? Thanks
Anyone know if genesis bikes are stocked anywhere in dublin/ireland?

Bluefoam

Cycleways in Parnell St have Charge Bikes, they usually have a Tap & Plug out on Display. Cycle Surgery also do some Charge bikes, but when I enquired about the price of the Tap it was outrageous (really really over the top).

Cycological on the Quays do Genisis bikes.

cyco

Why not check these out- http://www.donedeal.ie/for-sale/gentsbicycles/1295575
I'd definitely go for one of these to add to the collection if I had any justification at all. Touring or cyclocross bike would make the perfect long distance commuter. The little bit of cleaning or maintenance on the derailleur gears is well worth the extra efficiency over the nexus hub gear. I think there are two versions of the nexus 8 speed- the ordinary and the "red band" hub. The ordinary one has a terrible amount of drag so you can hardly roll down hills without pedaling. I hear the other is better but have never used it. SRAM 7speed hubs run really smoothly and freewheel as well as any good cassette wheel.

BostonB

The tap is 900 or so. I notice Wheel Works have a bunch of Felt hybrids hub geared bikes. about 600~900 depending on spec. More modern looking than the retro tap. I've heard mixed reports about the hubs. Someone at work has a 8 speed for about 3 yrs with no problems at all. You get some bad reports on the web though. Someone suggested the Sturmey-Archer 8 speed was more reliable. But that could have been sales talk.

Heres a review of them all...
http://hubstripping.wordpress.com/internal-gear-hub-review/

I was all for a hub gear like the tap, but lately I've been thinking of getting just a regular road bike. But one that can take mudguards and racks. The hub gear bikes are heavy, and do we really have that many problems with derailleurs?

Bluefoam

BostonB wrote: »

The tap is 900 or so. I notice Wheel Works have a bunch of Felt hybrids hub geared bikes. about 600~900 depending on spec. More modern looking than the retro tap. I've heard mixed reports about the hubs. Someone at work has a 8 speed for about 3 yrs with no problems at all. You get some bad reports on the web though. Someone suggested the Sturmey-Archer 8 speed was more reliable. But that could have been sales talk.

Heres a review of them all...
http://hubstripping.wordpress.com/internal-gear-hub-review/

I was all for a hub gear like the tap, but lately I've been thinking of getting just a regular road bike. But one that can take mudguards and racks. The hub gear bikes are heavy, and do we really have that many problems with derailleurs?

The Tap is €660, I haven't had any issues with the weight. Racks & mudguard fittings are there. Its an excellent urban bike. If you are planning to do any races or king of the mountain stuff, forget about it, there are other bikes for that stuff.

Cetyl Palmitate

900 for the Tap? That seems a little steep. Are you sure you are not mixing it up with the next model up - Charge Mixer (Alfine hub instead of nexus)? I could be wrong, but that certainly takes the shine off my afternoon bicycle related daydream.
Seems like a fairly comprehensive hub review in the link too! Cheers

BostonB

sorry I meant the mixer. Doh my bad.

Civilian_Target

I'm running the old Shimano Nexus hub from my old bike - the first one here.

I was running an Orbit Orion 2002, which had been very reliable until about a year ago... then the rear hub started to go, and I finally broke it about six weeks ago. A new hub is was going to cost about 250 to buy and fit, plus a full service and new tyres were due, so it seemed like a good time to quit. I slapped on a 35 quid back wheel and now I have a single speed.

If its any reassurance, my 2002 SRAM S7 hub that came with the Orion did a clear 40,000km before dying... and it was OK for climbing on as well. I would skip on the Nexus 8 though, I tried them and wasn't impressed.

Part of my reason for avoiding the Tap was that it didn't have fittings for a rack, which you're telling me isn't the case. But I'm still glad I didn't get it, the Nexus makes no sense for my purposes. But I do still like hub gears - I hear people say they're inefficient and heavy, and maybe that's true, but they are much much nicer to use: you never have to thing about front and rear cogs, or whether you're moving when you change gears... or cleaning them at the weekend. If I could afford a Rohlhoff, I would have got that instead!

I checked out Cyclocross bikes too on my way to a decision, and went off them very quickly. Fitting a Cyclocross bike out for commuting makes little sense unless you're planning to cycle across fields... in which case you'd probably be better with a hybrid or mountain bike anyway. Better to choose what you want rather than do a half-assed conversion. (Thanks Blorg!)

I picked the Honky Tonk in the end because I wanted a road bike with rack mounts, that could take 32" tyres if I needed it to. The steel frame sealed the deal, because in the back of my mind, I also want to do a bit of touring. If I could change one thing about it, I would put in an Alfine hub.