YES THEY DID! Health Care Passed.

Overheal

I won't argue that a stupid number of people express freedom and libertarianism and then turn around and say a woman aborting her unborn child is an affront to god and an assault on that other person's freedom of religion or some such lark. But thats not what we were discussing. Abortion threads belong in AH if you ask me. I am only discussing abortion where it pertains to the Health Care Reform.

kev9100

Amerika wrote: »

It always amazes me how someone can be for abortion but against the death penalty.

Well, I'm not against the Death Penalty. I would just change the way its applied.

oscarBravo

Amerika wrote: »

It always amazes me how someone can be for abortion but against the death penalty.

How do you feel about people who are for the death penalty but opposed to abortion?

Amerika

oscarBravo wrote: »

How do you feel about people who are for the death penalty but opposed to abortion?

Good question! IMO the death penalty here in America is given as a result of an individual who consciously commits a heinous form of murder (not just murder), and the punishment is administered by the state in it’s duty to uphold the law. Abortion is the act of an individual taking of life of a completely defenseless unborn baby who’s only crime is trying to exist. As I stated, I am torn over the abortion issue, but regardless of the ethical issues, I do consider it to be a state sponsored allowable form of homicide.

Overheal

Amerika wrote: »

I do consider it to be a state sponsored homicide.

How is it State-Sponsored? Sponsored like "Pepsi-presents-Abortion!" sponsored, or, Roe v. Wade 'we're not interfering with your freedom to choose' sponsored?

Amerika

Overheal wrote: »

How is it State-Sponsored? Sponsored like "Pepsi-presents-Abortion!" sponsored, or, Roe v. Wade 'we're not interfering with your freedom to choose' sponsored?

No matter how you trivialize it or spin it… it still results in the state allowing the death of defenseless life at the hands of a private citizen.

Overheal

Amerika wrote: »

No matter how you trivialize it or spin it… it still results in the state allowing the death of defenseless life at the hands of a private citizen.

so then you would prefer that the State actually carry out the abortion, not a private citizen/doctor?

Amerika

Overheal wrote: »

so then you would prefer that the State actually carry out the abortion, not a private citizen/doctor?

No, I do not think the state should kill defenseless human life.

Overheal

Amerika wrote: »

No, I do not think the state should kill defenseless human life.

But you think a woman should have to follow through a pregnancy complication that will probably result in her death and the death of the unborn child.

Amerika

Overheal wrote: »

But you think a woman should have to follow through a pregnancy complication that will probably result in her death and the death of the unborn child.

No, I do not. But I don't think she should be allowed to abort it because it’s an inconvenience, I mean it gives her emotional distress.

I also believe what we are talking about is life, and the father of the child should have some moral and legal say in the matter.

Overheal

The Father does have say. Nobody is infringing on his First Amendment Right to persuade the Mother not to perform an elective abortion.

As for emotional distress: yes I'm sure its a mere inconvenience to get knocked up at 13. Especially in High School: Kid's are super-nice to eachother and everything. Bullying only happens in those pinko-fascist countries.

Denerick

Overheal wrote: »

The Father does have say. Nobody is infringing on his First Amendment Right to persuade the Mother not to perform an elective abortion.

As for emotional distress: yes I'm sure its a mere inconvenience to get knocked up at 13. Especially in High School: Kid's are super-nice to eachother and everything. Bullying only happens in those pinko-fascist countries.

Schoolyard teasing is not an adequate reason to commit an abortion.

I'm very iffy about abortion. I don't know where I stand. But the way people take a potential murder of the unborn so lightly does leave me feeling quite queasy.

Overheal

Denerick wrote: »

Schoolyard teasing is not an adequate reason to commit an abortion.

I would have also said facebook stalking is not an adequate reason to commit suicide but I haven't been an emotionally distraught teenager in a long time, apparently.

Denerick

Overheal wrote: »

I would have also said facebook stalking is not an adequate reason to commit suicide but I haven't been an emotionally distraught teenager in a long time, apparently.

:rolleyes:

How is that relatable?

Suicide is a personal choice that infringes on your personal liberty. Murder is a personal choice that infringes on anothers personal liberty. One decision is the choice of the individual, the other infringes on the rights of another individual.

Again, I don't know where I stand on abortion. But I do dislike the casual style taken to any debate involving it.

Amerika

Overheal wrote: »

The Father does have say. Nobody is infringing on his First Amendment Right to persuade the Mother not to perform an elective abortion.

What rights does the father have?

As for emotional distress: yes I'm sure its a mere inconvenience to get knocked up at 13. Especially in High School: Kid's are super-nice to eachother and everything. Bullying only happens in those pinko-fascist countries.

When you use the small percentage of situations considered to be the antithesis of the norm, as the basis for the whole argument, it is disingenuous in my book.

As an example, CAFE laws increased occupant deaths by 14 to 27 percent in auto accidents. Should we stop mandating fuel standards in auto’s because they are responsible for some additional deaths?

Overheal

Amerika wrote: »

What rights does the father have?

As I've said: First Amendment Rights.

Other than that its not his body.

I imagine in a more bizarre world if a fetus was grown in a vat, the mother would have the same rights as the father. But seeing as how she is the vessel, she has the right.

When you use the small percentage of situations considered to be the antithesis of the norm, as the basis for the whole argument, it is disingenuous in my book.

As an example, CAFE laws increased occupant deaths by 14 to 27 percent in auto accidents. Should we stop mandating fuel standards in auto’s because they are responsible for some additional deaths?

And only 2000 reported cases of sudden acceleration in toyota vehicles lead to the recall of over 6 million vehicles: Should Toyota have waited until more than 0.03% of their vehicles suddenly accelerated? Not to mention only 16 actual deaths.

This is why I did not want to get into the Abortion Debate. This is not about the Pro-Life/Pro-Choice debate. Though its a wonderful distraction I suppose from the debunked assertion that the Marxist Regime is funding elective abortions. Spoiler alert: It's not.

kev9100

Denerick wrote: »

Schoolyard teasing is not an adequate reason to commit an abortion.

I'm very iffy about abortion. I don't know where I stand. But the way people take a potential murder of the unborn so lightly does leave me feeling quite queasy.

I don't think anyone takes abortion lightly tbh. Personally, I don't like abortions either but I don't have the right to ban someone making a personal decision about their own bodies.

Amerika

Overheal wrote: »

As I've said: First Amendment Rights.

Other than that its not his body.

That all? So it's correct in your book that he has no say (other than his right to state an opinion) in the matter of the child during gestation, but is quite okay for him to be forced to pay support for the child until adulthood if the mother decides to bring the child to term? Or okay for a man to be required to pay support for a child until the child reaches adulthood when the woman tricked him into thinking he is the father, even though it is proven (after 60 days of birth) that he is not the biological father (as is the case in PA)?

oscarBravo

Let me just lay down a quick marker here before this thread goes any further down the road of debating the rights and wrongs of abortions. Not only is this not the thread for that discussion; it's not the forum for it.

Overheal

Good point and I hear you, but whats this trickery business? If he's not the father he's not the father. Or am I missing something

lets wrap this up and get back to Marxism.

Amerika

I wanted a way to figure out how ObamaCare works.



And that's only about one-third of the complexity of the final bill!

Now I’m sorry I asked. :pac:



http://www.house.gov/apps/list/press/tx08_brady/pr_100728_hc_chart.html