UK expels Israeli diplomat over passports should we do the same

IrishTonyO

The UK has expelled an Israeli diplomat over the fake passports used by assassins. Is it time Ireland did the same???

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0323/dubai.html

wes

Well, both the Dubai police (who hold Mossad completey responsible for the murder), and the Brits who are less blatant about, both have concluded that Israel is likely behind the passport forgeries. If the Irish government has come to the same conclusion from there investigations, then yes, we should do what Britain is doing and expel an Israeli diplomat.

IrishTonyO

I think we should expel them as well, Israel seems to think it can act with impunity anywhere in the world. It is time for other countries to stand up and say no more. It seems that everyone agrees they were responsible for this and as a result have made travel, security checks etc all much harder and more dangerous for Irish passport holders.

Overheal

To be fair it doesnt sound like they're denying it.

Britain's Foreign Secretary David Miliband told parliament there were compelling reasons to believe Israel was responsible for the misuse of British passports in the case.

He said he had sought assurances that Israel would not misuse them again.

But a direct citation would be helpful.

The Saint

Overheal wrote: »

To be fair it doesnt sound like they're denying it.


But a direct citation would be helpful.

Leiberman is still saying that there's no proof of Israeli involvement in response to the British allegation. Link

I'm not quite sure how Milliband expects to get assurances not to do something again that the Israelis refuse to admit to in the first place. I'd imagine that Leiberman will say that Israel will not engage in such activities in the future while not admitting having to done so in the past.

I watched the whole parliamentary Q&A afterwards and a number of MPs asked why there was no criminal charges being sought since some Israelis engaged in criminal activity by forging passports. One MP stated that under British law, people can be locked up for a number of years for passport forgery and asked why no charges were being sought since Milliband accused Israelis of engaging in this crime. Milliband obfuscated.

BlaasForRafa

The Dubai authorities should concentrate on stopping terrorists from buying weapons on their territory rather than having other countries allegedly doing their work for them.

moonpurple

yes we should, life has become less safe for an irish passport holder now because of israelis

BlaasForRafa

The Saint wrote: »

Leiberman is still saying that there's no proof of Israeli involvement in response to the British allegation. Link

I'm not quite sure how Milliband expects to get assurances not to do something again that the Israelis refuse to admit to in the first place. I'd imagine that Leiberman will say that Israel will not engage in such activities in the future while not admitting having to done so in the past.

I watched the whole parliamentary Q&A afterwards and a number of MPs asked why there was no criminal charges being sought since some Israelis engaged in criminal activity by forging passports. One MP stated that under British law, people can be locked up for a number of years for passport forgery and asked why no charges were being sought since Milliband accused Israelis of engaging in this crime. Milliband obfuscated.

Evidence would be required in order to bring a prosecution. It would seem they have nothing concrete, just circumstantial stuff.

IrishTonyO

The Saint wrote: »

Leiberman is still saying that there's no proof of Israeli involvement in response to the British allegation. Link

I'm not quite sure how Milliband expects to get assurances not to do something again that the Israelis refuse to admit to in the first place. I'd imagine that Leiberman will say that Israel will not engage in such activities in the future while not admitting having to done so in the past.

I watched the whole parliamentary Q&A afterwards and a number of MPs asked why there was no criminal charges being sought since some Israelis engaged in criminal activity by forging passports. One MP stated that under British law, people can be locked up for a number of years for passport forgery and asked why no charges were being sought since Milliband accused Israelis of engaging in this crime. Milliband obfuscated.

Yes, he is saying the British haven't proved it, but he is not denying it. Surely if they were not involved they would be denying it vigorously rather than saying you haven't proved it??

BlaasForRafa

IrishTonyO wrote: »

Yes, he is saying the British haven't proved it, but he is not denying it. Surely if they were not involved they would be denying it vigorously rather than saying you haven't proved it??

One would assume that they wish to deny it but that they also want Hamas to believe that Mossad were involved. That way they Hamas can't be sure that when they go on another arms buying trip that mossad won't be after them.

dlofnep

I think we should as a symbol. But we won't, as Ireland doesn't want to be accused of being anti-semitic.

Overheal

The Saint wrote: »

I watched the whole parliamentary Q&A afterwards and a number of MPs asked why there was no criminal charges being sought since some Israelis engaged in criminal activity by forging passports. One MP stated that under British law, people can be locked up for a number of years for passport forgery and asked why no charges were being sought since Milliband accused Israelis of engaging in this crime. Milliband obfuscated.

Well im sure the real answer to that may be Diplomatic Immunity or some derivative but not wanting to give the evening news a sound byte to tear apart.

What was that case - I think it was a Diplomat or something, for his home in Ireland or Britain or somewhere had tens of thousands of dollars (~) done by contractors then dogged the overdue balance. And he got away with it too - Diplomatic Immunity.

The Saint

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Evidence would be required in order to bring a prosecution. It would seem they have nothing concrete, just circumstantial stuff.

I can't imagine the British expelling a diplomat based on circumstantial evidence. Would be a pretty harsh action to take based on a hunch. What's not to say that the British don't have evidence. This conclusion has also come about as a resuly of a Serious Organised Crime Agency investigation into the affair where officers travelled to Israel to investigate.

IrishTonyO wrote: »

Yes, he is saying the British haven't proved it, but he is not denying it. Surely if they were not involved they would be denying it vigorously rather than saying you haven't proved it??

Israel has a policy of not confirming nor denying such actions. However, I'd imagine that if they didn't do it then Israel would have told the British behind closed doors that they weren't involved.

The Saint

Overheal wrote: »

Well im sure the real answer to that may be Diplomatic Immunity or some derivative but not wanting to give the evening news a sound byte to tear apart.

What was that case - I think it was a Diplomat or something, for his home in Ireland or Britain or somewhere had tens of thousands of dollars (~) done by contractors then dogged the overdue balance. And he got away with it too - Diplomatic Immunity.

Diplomatic immunity would cover embassy and consular staff as well as acting government ministers. This would not cover those who forged the passports.

BlaasForRafa

The Saint wrote: »

I can't imagine the British expelling a diplomat based on circumstantial evidence. Would be a pretty harsh action to take based on a hunch. What's not to say that the British don't have evidence. This conclusion has also come about as a resuly of a Serious Organised Crime Agency investigation into the affair where officers travelled to Israel to investigate.

It could be just posturing by the British to mollify arab interests and some of its own bolshy labour back benchers. In a few months the diplomat or a replacement will probably slip quietly back into their post with a nod and a wink from the british government.

Nodin

IrishTonyO wrote: »

The UK has expelled an Israeli diplomat over the fake passports used by assassins. Is it time Ireland did the same???

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0323/dubai.html

Yep.

IrishTonyO

Foreign Secretary David Miliband said an investigation had discovered "compelling" evidence that Tel Aviv's secret service was responsible for cloning the ID documents.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/diplomat-expulsion-sends-clear-message-to-israel-1925653.html

The Saint

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

It could be just posturing by the British to mollify arab interests and some of its own bolshy labour back benchers. In a few months the diplomat or a replacement will probably slip quietly back into their post with a nod and a wink from the british government.

I really can't see the British taking such harsh action against an ally for the reasons you suggest. They could have taken any number of actions less harsh than this and the Labour government has no precedent in taking action against Israel to millify Arabs, even when, it could be argued, that such action would have been better justified. Although I agree with the diplomat likely being slipped back in after this has all died down.

FlutterinBantam

Must have missed something.

Have a number of Israelis been tried and convicted of this crime?

Or are we just throwing around generalities..

IrishTonyO

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Must have missed something.

Have a number of Israelis been tried and convicted of this crime?

Or are we just throwing around generalities..

No we are discussing why the UK expelled a diplomat and wheter we should, just like the topic says. And it is highly unlikely the UK would take this action if it did not have a lot more than generalities to go on.

FlutterinBantam

Tks Anto, just the way the thread was going I was sure someone was tried and convicted.

Appreciate the heads up.

Overheal

The Saint wrote: »

Diplomatic immunity would cover embassy and consular staff as well as acting government ministers. This would not cover those who forged the passports.

What if it was the Consular that forged the documents? What if they did it on the premises of a [sovereign] Israeli embassy?

Koloman

Newsnight on BBC2 at the moment are doing a piece on it. Jeremy Paxman introduces the programme by saying the Israelis seem to be doing the usual "It wasn't us guv!" stance.

stoneill

How long did the Israeli's have to wait for their irish passports?

nacho libre

didn't the same thing happen 20 years ago? it wouldn't surprise me if mossad were given assurance privately that the expelling of this 'diplomat' is just a pr stunt that the british goverment has to be seen to do but it'll be business as usual behind the scenes.

baztard

If I remember correctly Micháel Martin said that he wanted any response to be an EU response as a whole and not just individual country responces.

I'm wondering why Britain decided to go it alone with their response to Israel. I think its because there are more certain circumstances by which the british passports were probably copied, ie. in an israeli airport.

We can not say the same for the Irish passports. Do we know how they were copied? Not as definitely as the brits do I'm sure anyway. If we were to expell an israeli diplomat it would be under weaker circumstances than how britain done it.

I can only presume that the EU didnt make an expulsion as a whole because there was disagreement over whether or not to do so, so Britain went it alone.

digme

dlofnep wrote: »

I think we should as a symbol. But we won't, as Ireland doesn't want to be accused of being anti-semitic.

It's not what you are, its what you do.
I'd ban every last one of their stinking corrupt racist government from coming here.

The Saint

Overheal wrote: »

What if it was the Consular that forged the documents? What if they did it on the premises of a [sovereign] Israeli embassy?

He would be covered by diplomatic immunity unless Israel waived his immunity. This would be highly unlikely to happen though. However, I think that it would be unlikely that consular staff would have the expertise to clone passports unless someone was placed in the embassy for this specific purpose. However, Milliband stated that this was likely done in Israel or another country.

ynotdu

Having got involved in quite a few threads about Israel and understanding that the State has always felt its back was against the wall,I think there is no doubt that the passports were forged and it was a Mossad operation.

It does not excuse that behaviour{and has been said does endanger Citizens from the Countries involved}Yes measures should be taken by Ireland in protest.

England did throw out diplomats and normally Israel would play tit-for-tat.
They did not,which in itself is tantamount to an admission of guilt.

Israel has had such great Leaders in its history it is a real shame how badly their recent Govt's have let them down:(

JustinDee

IrishTonyO wrote: »

The UK has expelled an Israeli diplomat over the fake passports used by assassins. Is it time Ireland did the same???

Sure. Why not.
Ireland taking a stance on an international incident for a change would be a novel idea if not the rarest.

wes

An interesting article in the Independent.co.uk on this:

Clone wars: Mossad's London chief expelled over forged passports

New details are revealed showing how Israeli security services stole British citizens' identities. Foreign Office advises travellers to Israel that they risk having their passports cloned

By Kim Sengupta, Diplomatic Correspondent and Donald Macintyre in Jerusalem

Wednesday, 24 March 2010

Britain has expelled Mossad's most senior official in London after concluding there was compelling evidence that UK passports used by a hit squad in Dubai were cloned by Israel. The Independent has learnt that the documents were cloned at Ben Gurion airport, and officials then made follow-up calls to check surreptitiously that the travel plans of those whose identities had been stolen would not interfere with the assassination.

"Such misuse of British passports is intolerable," the Foreign Secretary David Miliband told Parliament. "The fact that this was done by a country which is a friend, with significant diplomatic, cultural, business and personal ties to the UK, only adds insult to injury." In an unusual move last night, the Foreign Office also updated its travel advice for Israel, warning would-be visitors of the perils of passport cloning. "We recommend that you only hand your passport over to third parties including Israeli officials when absolutely necessary," the travel bulletin said.

Click here for full article

I have to say that the travel advisory is especially interesting, and pretty damning as well. Seems to me, the more details we get, the worse this whole thing seems to get.

JustinDee

wes wrote: »

I have to say that the travel advisory is especially interesting, and pretty damning as well. Seems to me, the more details we get, the worse this whole thing seems to get.

How does it get "worse" exactly? There's absolutely nothing new about any of it either in method or action.
What passport and identity was the Hamas fella they killed using so he could what he was doing?

Miliband will say anything at this stage. He's about to be knocked out of a job this May.

anymore

As President Obama pointed out, we give Shannon Airport for use as US military transit point for their War Machine. We supply software for their Predator Drones to make them more efficient in killing all they behold, so why wouldnt we give Israel a little handout as well ?