Complete Noobie, need advice please!

OREGATO

Hi guys,

I joined the forum as it seems to be a good resource for all things photography, I'm trying to get into photography a bit more now as a hobby and would like some advice. It's only for recreational purposes such as holidays and the odd motorsports so I don't want to go pro, but would look advice into the right camera for me.

I've always enjoyed photography to some extent, more the holiday type with a point and shoot and stuff. But, I've always had it on my to do list to get a decent camera, do some courses and basically keep it as a hobbie.

The main point of this thread is to ask you guys where to begin, I'm looking at doing a few courses, but should I a) buy the camera first and go to courses or b) go to courses with a normal digital camera and then get a DSLR?

I'd rather go to courses which explain shutter speeds, different lenses etc and go into more depths about photography as opposed to just a course on how to point and shoot.

Also, what camera should I look at purchasing and why? Should I look into second hand or steer clear and go to a normal shop and buy with a receipt and gurantee?

What make, Nikon or Canon and why? Any disadvantages or advantages of owning one over the other?

Which make and why? I'll never go pro, so obviously, I'm not going to go and get one for crazy money, but I'd like something that would have a bit more so that I can explore it if I need to.

Budget, I've budgeted around 1k, but can spend more if needed. 1k, just because its a reasonable figure in my head, but I may change if I know I'm not being realistic. The 1k will cover everything and not just the body.

I've done a bit of research and I'm leaning towards the Canon EOS 500d, it seems to have good reviews for it. Any suggestions?

DaireQuinlan

I'm going to jump in here before you start getting legions of people advising you to go for this camera or that, or this bundle which is better than that bundle or whatever. You say the 500d looks good ? Just buy it. Go into a shop over the weekend and ask to see it and play with it a bit. Ask to play with the equivalent nikon model for comparison. Then just buy one of them. All entry to mid level cameras available now are about as capable as one another. It won't make the slightest bit of difference to your photography which one you get.

The last thing you want to do is start getting bogged down in gear and spend the next few months wavering over one model or another. Thats a few months that you don't spend taking photographs, which is the most important thing.

trishw78

Ok Since Daire hasn't mentioned it in his opening post, possible look at getting 'Understanding Exposure' it comes highly recommended from everyone on the forum, It'll give you a good basis to start learning.

Once you have your camera take it off M and basically start messing about with it. Learn its (the camera's) limitations. Don't be afraid of making mistakes.

As for a post processing program Picasso is free. Although I believe other free programs maybe just as good if not better.

OREGATO

Thanks for the help guys,

@daire - to be honest, I wasn't expecting a reply like that at all, more in the lines of, take your time, picking the right one is important etc etc. But I think you're advice is really good and I think you make a good point. Like I stated in the OP, it's for recreational use, I never see myself going professional or the like so I think jumping in, having a look in a camera shop and deciding is the best advice.

@trish - I take it that 'Understanding Exposure' is a book of some sort? If so then I'll definitely invest in something like that.

Thanks for the tip on Picasso.

Any more tips/suggestions, much appreciated.

Lynfo

I'm a newbie to all this malarkey like yourself Oregato, have been lurking here for a while now reading up, I got the book Understanding Exposure after seeing a few people here recommend it and have to agree, it's very good, explains things a little better than other books I've browsed through.

_Whimsical_

OREGATO wrote: »

.

@trish - I take it that 'Understanding Exposure' is a book of some sort? If so then I'll definitely invest in something like that.

Any more tips/suggestions, much appreciated.

Yup it's a book and it is excellent. It's on sale here for €11.49 Inc delivery which is a good price.

http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/book/9780817463007/Understanding-Exposure
It explains some of the more intimidating aspects of photography amazingly simply. You'll be very glad you got it

OREGATO

Thanks guys, I'll be taking the plunge on the camera soon and getting the book, I went to easons tonight and got a book (i was looking for the other one, but just wanted something to wet my appetite as they didn't have the other one ) I got Tom Ang's Digital Photography - an Introduction for 13 quid in easons.

Also, what size SD card is the maximum for the 500d?

Any other advice or anything else is welcome.

I've had a look at the 500d and the Nikon d9000 which wasn't bad but I liked the feel and the weight of the Canon a bit better!

sprinkles

Once you have your camera make sure you have it set to manual. You might screw up 90% of the pictures you take in the beginning but you will learn a lot faster about how the shutter speed, iso, aperture settings etc all work.

'Understanding Exposure' is excellent and imo a must buy. Read it and carry it with you for reference if possible. This also goes for the you camera's instruction manual. EDIT: Tom Ang's book is quite good too. I picked a copy up for a friend of mine and had a leaf through it. Good choice.

Take as many pictures as you can, they don't have to be particularly interesting subjects but it will help you progress, both in terms of framing a shot and generally knowing how to work your camera. The old adage - practice makes perfect.

Get used to carrying your camera around with you. The fact you're going to spend a decent amount of money on it should push you to justify the expense. Carry it everywhere possible. And for that reason I'd recommend a decent bag

And most importantly, enjoy it!!

Corkfeen

OREGATO wrote: »

Thanks guys, I'll be taking the plunge on the camera soon and getting the book, I went to easons tonight and got a book (i was looking for the other one, but just wanted something to wet my appetite as they didn't have the other one ) I got Tom Ang's Digital Photography - an Introduction for 13 quid in easons.

Also, what size SD card is the maximum for the 500d?

Any other advice or anything else is welcome.

I've had a look at the 500d and the Nikon d9000 which wasn't bad but I liked the feel and the weight of the Canon a bit better!

You can get up to 32gb, so plenty of memory to satisfy you.;)

CabanSail

You will not go wrong with any of the bodies on offer from both Canon or Nikon.

The advice on getting Understanding Exposure is good & will apply to any of the cameras you are considering.

What will really start to fry your brain and empty your wallet is when you start looking at Glass.

Good luck & get out there and start shooting.

OREGATO

well guys, just a quick update.

Firstly, just want to say thanks to all who have contributed in this thread, very helpful and friendly advice!

I went out and got the 500D today. Again, I went to a shop and compared it to a Nikon equivlent, but after reading and watching a lot of reviews of the 500D I think I've made the right decision.

Understanding Exposure has been ordered since yesterday, so hopefully I'll get it tomorrow or Monday morning!!

So I've taken it out of the box and have just started to play with it, straight away, I've switched the dial onto 'M' and I think that's where it will intend to stay for most of my time with it.

I've started to try and read up on depth of field, aperture and shutter speed, still a bit confused and a bit daunting holding a camera worth over €700 quid in your hands, I'm very careful with it (as I am with all my gadgets) so I've already put it into a camera bag with padding. I'm going to get another bag, but thats for another thead/time.

While I'm waiting for my book to arrive and also booking the canon half day training, is there any good web resources I could refer to? Google brings up a hell of a lot of results, but I haven't really found any really good information that explains it at a good simple level.

Anyways, again, thanks and any further hints, tips etc would be great!

Thanks

Will

AnimalRights

You should start of with P and then followed by both TV and AP priority.
Plenty of time to get to Manual.

pullandbang

AR is right. Stick with the P, Av & Tv - forget the rest. You'll learn a lot more working with the creative zones on your camera than you will with the presets. Remember, digital is free. Take zillions of shots, it costs nothing. You always have the delete button.

I'm also a beginner myself, though I do have a vague understanding of the old camera system.


I think what helped me start getting into learning properly was when I first tried to take a shot at night time, gont really pissed off at the camera (of course I blamed the camera!) and then came on here moaning for help.

It was upon learning of how shutter speeds affect night time photography that I began to look properly into it.


I've done an 'absolute beginners' course on photography and wouldn't really recommend them. It cost me €95 for an hour and a half per week for seven weeks. Not too bad when you think about it duration-wise.

However, I had already been trawling the net for about a month before the course and so nothing on the course was really new to me (though it did change my understanding of aperture).

I recommend just messing on the net instead of jumping straight into a beginner's course.

Alternatively, if THIS goes ahead, I'd recommend going to that (which I'm sure will be boardsie dominated).

My reason for saying that is because; I read and read about aperture online, looked at images and tutorial illustrations, etc. and I just couldn't get my head around it. However, 60 seconds with Chorcai (member here) and I had a better understanding of how it worked than all my course and internet time combined.


If you could even hire a boardsie out for a few hours then you'd do yourself a favour instead getting on a beginner course (that's just my own personal opinion though) and then head over to a more advanced photography course after that.


At the end of the day, everyone will approach it differently and learn different things in a different order. I've never picked up Understanding Exposure but thanks to the link above I'll most likely stick an order in for it now (great price, cheers Chilly!).

.Longshanks.

From now on, any new threads asking about which camera should I buy should be pointed in this direction. Some great no nonsense advise

OREGATO

AnimalRights wrote: »

You should start of with P and then followed by both TV and AP priority.
Plenty of time to get to Manual.

pullandbang wrote: »

AR is right. Stick with the P, Av & Tv - forget the rest. You'll learn a lot more working with the creative zones on your camera than you will with the presets. Remember, digital is free. Take zillions of shots, it costs nothing. You always have the delete button.

I've read conflicting things online about this, some say go straight to the M mode so you get the hang of the camera a lot better while others say start with p, then move on to tv and ap. I think I'll stick with M for now, I'll see how I get on and if I do start getting disheartened, I'll revert back to P mode and start from there. Good advice as well on the 'digital is free' statement, I'm going to try and take as many photos as I can!

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm also a beginner myself, though I do have a vague understanding of the old camera system.


I think what helped me start getting into learning properly was when I first tried to take a shot at night time, gont really pissed off at the camera (of course I blamed the camera!) and then came on here moaning for help.

It was upon learning of how shutter speeds affect night time photography that I began to look properly into it.


I've done an 'absolute beginners' course on photography and wouldn't really recommend them. It cost me €95 for an hour and a half per week for seven weeks. Not too bad when you think about it duration-wise.

However, I had already been trawling the net for about a month before the course and so nothing on the course was really new to me (though it did change my understanding of aperture).

I recommend just messing on the net instead of jumping straight into a beginner's course.

Alternatively, if THIS goes ahead, I'd recommend going to that (which I'm sure will be boardsie dominated).

My reason for saying that is because; I read and read about aperture online, looked at images and tutorial illustrations, etc. and I just couldn't get my head around it. However, 60 seconds with Chorcai (member here) and I had a better understanding of how it worked than all my course and internet time combined.


If you could even hire a boardsie out for a few hours then you'd do yourself a favour instead getting on a beginner course (that's just my own personal opinion though) and then head over to a more advanced photography course after that.


At the end of the day, everyone will approach it differently and learn different things in a different order. I've never picked up Understanding Exposure but thanks to the link above I'll most likely stick an order in for it now (great price, cheers Chilly!).

Thanks for the advice, a very good insight into another person starting from scratch is always good. In some shops, they're offering the half day training with photography Ireland, but unfortunately, the outlet I purchased it from don't qualify for it, I've emailed them asking if it was possible for me to get the half day free, but received and email back this morning saying no

I'd much rather an informal sit down with a one to one, maybe even someone on here if possible than going to a class at the beginning, just so I can ask all the stupid questions and be comfortable with my camera. I'm not doubting the courses, just think its better one to one and obviously, I'd have no problems with paying the person for doing it.

Longshanks100 wrote: »

From now on, any new threads asking about which camera should I buy should be pointed in this direction. Some great no nonsense advise

+1. I'm actually quite surprised at how much good advice I got so quick and especially the fact that no one just came on here saying go and buy X brand insteady of Y brand cause of a, b, c.

Daires advice in the first response was really good, I was expecting people to come on and say 'don't get a 500D get x instead' but it was good to see that people are encouraging people to go for it.

Thanks again lads and keep the good suggestions coming

AnimalRights

OREGATO wrote: »

I've read conflicting things online about this, some say go straight to the M mode so you get the hang of the camera a lot better while others say start with p, then move on to tv and ap. I think I'll stick with M for now, I'll see how I get on and if I do start getting disheartened, I'll revert back to P mode

While M is complicated enough to work out the matching AP and SS it's really the metering on a changing situation that's it's biggest drawback, sure it's fine on a controlled enviroment like still life or indoors portraits but once your outdoors and the light keeps changing (such as any protest march/sports etc) it's a pain, I started of with M and used it for over a year, it's only the last couple of months I've copped on and realised that the majority of the time AP or TV def lets me get that picture/correct exposure far more easily (which means I 'miss' less pictures, I like street Photography and AP/TV is wonderful for that.

In relation to what Animal is saying, and again, purely as a beginner myself, so I'm not the most knowledgeable in the world, I also think starting off with M is likely to be jumping in the deep end and not really knowing what's going on (and will probably lead to a lot of frustration).

Personally I'd recommend using Shutter Priority mode (Tv on Canon, I believe? S on everyone else?) and trying to figure that out first (again night time really helps with this, as this is when your shutter speeds will be more important). During the summer is handy because the nights are generally warm enough to go out and about in without freezing to death.

Once you've got that down, then move along to Aperture priority, then ISO (ISO isn't too difficult). That way you get a good understanding of what each part of the camera actually does, whereas if you're using Manual mode (M) you have control over everything and if you keep getting crappy shots, you might not be too sure where you're going wrong.


That's just my own opinion, though. I've had three different photography books in the last six months, and the manul that came with the camera has been the best guide I've come across as of yet

sprinkles

I guess it's each to their own but I started off using M and never looked back - as with Animalrights I only venture into Ap/Tv setting when I'm slightly worried about missing the shots, ie don't have enough time to check everything. But personally starting off with M, while most if not all mys pictures were kak to begin with, really pushed me to learn how all the various settings worked together and how slight changes to them effected the end result.

DaireQuinlan

sprinkles wrote: »

I guess it's each to their own but I started off using M and never looked back - as with Animalrights I only venture into Ap/Tv setting when I'm slightly worried about missing the shots, ie don't have enough time to check everything. But personally starting off with M, while most if not all mys pictures were kak to begin with, really pushed me to learn how all the various settings worked together and how slight changes to them effected the end result.

But why use manual ? How are you metering ? Are you (say) setting a shutter speed then matching the aperture to the meter reading (or vice versa) ? If so then you're just more slowly doing exactly what the camera does if you're in aperture or shutter priority.
I use manual in a tiny minority of cases* but only in cases where I either can't meter or I know the meter reading is going to be wildly inaccurate. I'd say 95% of shots I take are on Aperture priority, with a touch of exposure comp where neccessary where I reckon the meter is going to screw up.

*or indeed in 100% of cases using my bronica where I have to meter externally but that's another issue.

sprinkles

DaireQuinlan wrote: »

But why use manual ? How are you metering ? Are you (say) setting a shutter speed then matching the aperture to the meter reading (or vice versa) ? If so then you're just more slowly doing exactly what the camera does if you're in aperture or shutter priority.
I use manual in a tiny minority of cases* but only in cases where I either can't meter or I know the meter reading is going to be wildly inaccurate. I'd say 95% of shots I take are on Aperture priority, with a touch of exposure comp where neccessary where I reckon the meter is going to screw up.

*or indeed in 100% of cases using my bronica where I have to meter externally but that's another issue.

That's pretty much it but, imo, it gave me a better sense of how the final results were effected by changing aperture etc when I started out, I definitely think learned a lot quicker by having it set to M. I generally don't set out to photograph 1 thing in particular either. I might go for a walk with a variety of shots in mind but end up going for something completely different - M suits my lack of planning... I feel I can switch priorities quicker in M mode than in Ap/Tv modes - I'm probably deluding myself though!

I guess I just got used to using it in M now and rarely think of changing it.

Hopr

Hi Oregato,

First of all, best of luck with your new purchase. I think the advice given by Daire, Ar and others is spot on. For me, my default option in the creative mode would be Av/A. In Av mode your options are governed by the actual lens your are using, about 19 options and in general you will always get a well exposed image. Also in Av mode you have control over the depth of field.

If you have a specific need for a particular shutter speed then, yes use Tv/S mode. There are about 55 different options in this mode 30 sec > 1/8000 sec. There is a stat that suggests that 65% of these options will not achieve a image[ up for correction on that one].

Imo, you really need to get out and take pictures and experiment as much as you can, getting to know your camera.

This forum is a great source of information and has so many knowledgeable and excellent photographers.

Best of luck,

Hopr

DaireQuinlan

sprinkles wrote: »

That's pretty much it but, imo, it gave me a better sense of how the final results were effected by changing aperture etc when I started out, I definitely think learned a lot quicker by having it set to M. I generally don't set out to photograph 1 thing in particular either. I might go for a walk with a variety of shots in mind but end up going for something completely different - M suits my lack of planning... I feel I can switch priorities quicker in M mode than in Ap/Tv modes - I'm probably deluding myself though!

I guess I just got used to using it in M now and rarely think of changing it.

That's cool, I was just curious. Everyone has their own thing.

DaireQuinlan

Hopr wrote: »

There are about 55 different options in this mode 30 sec > 1/8000 sec. There is a stat that suggests that 65% of these options will not achieve a image[ up for correction on that one].

Hopr

DaireQuinlan wrote: »

In Tv/S mode you have up to 55 different shutter speeds.

Hopr

DaireQuinlan

Hopr wrote: »

In Tv/S mode you have up to 55 different shutter speeds.

Hopr

well, it kinda depends on the camera, but it was more the second part of that sentence that didn't make any sense.

Hopr

DaireQuinlan wrote: »

well, it kinda depends on the camera, but it was more the second part of that sentence that didn't make any sense.

I agree, it depends on the camera, in this case the op has purchased a canon 500d. The shutter speeds from 30sec up to 1/4000 sec. The point i was trying to make[maybe somewhat badly] is that the margin of error increases in Tv/S mode and your unsure of the shutter speeds for a given situation.

For example, your taking a picture in a room and available light is daylight. You select Tv mode and your iso happens to 400 and you input, lets say 1/500sec, the camera chooses an aperture of 2.8. The result is a badly exposed image, if any. On the other hand you select Av mode and input an aperture of 2.8, the result is a well exposed image.

For me Av mode is a ready to go creative mode and may suit a beginner when starting off.

charybdis

This is bizarre.

Hopr wrote: »

I agree, it depends on the camera, in this case the op has purchased a canon 500d. The shutter speeds from 30sec up to 1/4000 sec. The point i was trying to make[maybe somewhat badly] is that the margin of error increases in Tv/S mode and your unsure of the shutter speeds for a given situation.

I really don't think you can apply a statistical analysis to the possibility of "achieving an image" by counting the available 1/3rd of a stop increments on the shutter speed dial and suggesting that a portion of them will work without regard to ISO or aperture value. There is no "margin of error". It's meaningless to talk about shutter speed in isolation with regard to exposure.

Hopr wrote: »

For example, your taking a picture in a room and available light is daylight. You select Tv mode and your iso happens to 400 and you input, lets say 1/500sec, the camera chooses an aperture of 2.8. The result is a badly exposed image, if any. On the other hand you select Av mode and input an aperture of 2.8, the result is a well exposed image.

Presumably, if your camera is metering consistently, it will choose an identical EV for the scene regardless of what program mode it's in and should produce a reasonably well exposed image.

You really aren't making any sense.

OREGATO

Thanks for the reply guys, I've been using it mainly on M mode so far, I've been playing with AV or full auto for one or two shots and see what is selected by the camera for the settings, I then experiement with my own settings and go from there.

I've taken over 400 shots today already!

Also, can someone tell me how to clean the lense of the camera? the front has gotten a bit of dust on it so it might be worthy to clean.

I've no products with me and probably won't get to a camera shop until tomorrow evening, but would it be alright to clean the lense with a normal cloth used to clean reading glasses/sun glasses? or is it a strict DO NOT TOUCH rule?

Any help would be great.

Thanks again.

Will

Chorcai

OREGATO wrote: »

Thanks for the reply guys, I've been using it mainly on M mode so far, I've been playing with AV or full auto for one or two shots and see what is selected by the camera for the settings, I then experiement with my own settings and go from there.

I've taken over 400 shots today already!

Also, can someone tell me how to clean the lense of the camera? the front has gotten a bit of dust on it so it might be worthy to clean.

I've no products with me and probably won't get to a camera shop until tomorrow evening, but would it be alright to clean the lense with a normal cloth used to clean reading glasses/sun glasses? or is it a strict DO NOT TOUCH rule?

Any help would be great.

Thanks again.

Will

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VSGUwY31zQ

AnimalRights

The thing you use for cleaning glasses is fine also for a lens.

OREGATO

Thanks again guys for the helpful advice, I'll hopefully be going to a camera shop today to get myself a cleaning kit. Can anyone recommend me a good product to use?

Also, just on my photography, I went away this weekend with the camera and found myself sticking with the 'M' mode, why? I don't know, I guess cause I wanted to. Ok, so most of the time, I ended up shooting the same subject 3 - 7 times before I got the right shutter speed and aperture to product an 'ok' photo, but after a while, I was getting good results with two or three attempts with different settings. Indoors at a dark aquarium, I used iso 3200 and stayed on M and got some shots.

After a while, I started to use the liveview to adjust the aperture and shutterspeed to see what the photo was like and this helped a lot too.

So all in all, it was an enjoyable experience and I think overall I must have taken over 1000 photos. (I'll stick some up later for some advice and recommendations) Ok, so not all 1000 were good, maybe around 100 of them are ok, with another 100 being duplicates or the same shot as before. But what I found was M gave me a lot of control. I did use full auto for one or two shots where I wouldn't have time to adjust settings and experiment and other times, I did use AV for the same reason.

Do you guys think I'm going about this the wrong way? Am I missing out on learning some important aspects by going down the M route or should I just stick with what I'm comfortable with.

Thoughts and suggestions would be great.

thanks again

AnimalRights

Learning M 1st is not necc bad in you missing something, I mean it will be easier to learn and use TV/AV when u do decide to use them when you do, ie at a sports match or for a landscape shot.
Learning/experimenting is very much part of the fun at the start, I remember shooting my pint in a pub dozens of times with different set ups.

OREGATO

AnimalRights wrote: »

Learning M 1st is not necc bad in you missing something, I mean it will be easier to learn and use TV/AV when u do decide to use them when you do, ie at a sports match or for a landscape shot.
Learning/experimenting is very much part of the fun at the start, I remember shooting my pint in a pub dozens of times with different set ups.

Thanks AR, thats good to know!

If I do photograph stuff like motor sports, mainly trackdays and stuff at mondello, I'll probably have to use something like TV/AV, but for now, I think I'm just trying to get to grips with it. Obviously, I'll probably have to get more lenses, but again, i'm trying to learn to walk before i can run.

If I post up some of my first shots, could you guys give me a few pointers and stuff on what i've done?! also, I've seen a few threads where 'C&C' is mentioned. can someone tell me what this means? comments and criticism i take it?

AnCatDubh

OREGATO wrote: »

I've seen a few threads where 'C&C' is mentioned. can someone tell me what this means? comments and criticism i take it?

Correct.

Diabhal_Glas

http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

OREGATO If you play with the numbers in this It will help you to understand Aperature