Problem With Defection From Catholic Chruch

ott

I sent a letter and declaration of defection to the bishop of my diosece on 3rd March 2010 using the standard letter on the count me out website. Approximately two weeks later i got a letter from the bishop stating that he had received my request but that defecting was a more complicated procedure and i would have to speak to my local parish priest and the bishop would send a copy of my request to the local parish priest, that was last week.

On my letter to the bishop i used my parents address as im moving house soon and didnt want any correspondnce to be mislaid. The parish priest today called in to my parents house asking to speak with me (which is fine as that is the address i used on my correspondence to the bishop). My parents told him that i did not live at their address but simply used the address for correspondence. The parish priest then proceeded to tell them why he was calling to see me ie i had writtin to the bishop wanting to defect from the Catholic Church. He then said the bishop had also requested that he speak with my parents to ask them why they thought i had made such a decision. He then proceeded to read to them the letter i had sent to the bishop and read to them at least 4 letters the bishop had sent him regarding my correspondence.

My partner witnessed my signature on the declaration of defection, the parish priest then pointed this out to my parents and said that the bishop may ask the parish priest of my partners mothers parish to speak with her about it.

anyway the priest is apparently going to ring me to arrange to meet at the weekend. Im pretty sure that he shouldnt have read my letter out to my parents etc and i want to know what i can say to him to stop him from telling everyone.

Blackhorse Slim

viclemronny

Your best bet is to forget for a minute that he is a priest. You also need to accept that although there may be a law against reading someone else's mail/forwarding it on*, you're not going to get the authorities involved(not that you said you would). But the point is that as with most things, all you can do is ask him not to do it again, and make sure he knows that you are feel offended and disrespected. Explain this in a calm manner and you probably have the best chance of it not happening again.

As I say though, it's like most things that are in the grand scheme of things small, you can only really ask him not to do it. Like noisy neighbours/j-walking/litering, etc.


*I know it's illegal to open someone else's post without their consent, not sure about the rest.

Ickle Magoo

Perhaps when you speak with the priest you can point out that's exactly the kind of thing that led to your asking out in the first place.

On the other hand I'd hazard a guess he's an old man who's never had a family, the fact he approaches the situation with so little tact and trying to drag in your parent to "talk some sense into you" is probably to be expected.

toiletduck

Sounds like a dick tbh.

Doesn't seem like there's not much you can do apart from tell him how unacceptable his actions have been.

ott

hi guys thanks for the replies. your right he basically said to my parents he wasnt quite sure how to deal with it, he was just doing what the bishop told him. ill take your advice and speak with him camly about it when we meet. (im just lucky my parents arent terribly religous:))

hiorta

Has he been asked to 'deal with it?' All he has to do is record it and complete their chosen documentation.
Whether it is liked or accepted gracefully, you have EVERY right to make such a choice and he/ they should respect your choice and not pull every trick in their books to thwart it.

bleg

Just mail the bishop again. Tell him that you want to defect and stress that you would prefer if he didn't impede the process further. Politely ask him to remove you from the baptismal record and to give you proof.

ott

mu parents said that the priest had been asked to deal with it by the bishop. i really cant understand what all the fuss is about. would it be possible for me to ask to see the letter the bishop sent to the priest about it? Not quite sure how these things work but didnt think there would be this amount of fuss. Im not ashamed of my decision but it is a personal matter. Has anyone else defected and experienced similiar problems?

eoin5

I havent seen it with defection but I have with anti-social behaviour, a word in the ear with the parents kindof thing. The other possibility of course it that the PP is clueless. Sounds more like the latter.

Daftendirekt

First, you should probably email the bishop again, let him know that you won't be dissuaded, and that his little back-and-forth with the parish priest is a waste of time.

If you still end up having to meet with the priest, you could tell him that you're annoyed that he doesn't seem to have a modicum of respect for your privacy, and politely but firmly ask that he doesn't do it again. I don't think it's illegal to read correspondence you've received to an outside party, but it's rude as hell.

You could also tell him that nobody who wants to renounce their membership of the Catholic church owes any sort of an explanation after the shit that's come to light, and inform him that it's this type of arrogance from church hierarchy members that's made you want to officially leave.

Just remember though, if the priest does insist on broadcasting your defection to the world, you have nothing to be apologetic about, so don't let him make you feel like the guilty party in this.

Galvasean

I'd imagine he read the letters to your parents in the hope that they would try 'talk some sense into you'. The whole scenario stinks of 'buying time' and making the process as drawn out and complicated as possible, in the hope that you'll say 'sod it!' and stop trying.
You've come this far so you may as well finish the job. Play their little game for now. Meet the priest in person and let him no in no uncertain terms that you are leaving and there is not athing in this world thay can do about it. When they ask for specific reasons as to why you are leaving don't even bother telling them. They will only try to weasel you back/draw things out further in with things to 'think about for a while'. Just tell them your reasons are your own, you don't want to get into detail and wish to proceed as quickly as possible.

JTC83

From the Count Me Out FAQ section:

It is standard practice, particularly in the Dublin archdiocese, to respond to defection requests with an offer to meet with a member of the clergy (usually the Bishop's secretary). The meeting is always described as an 'offer' and it usually states that the purpose is not to change the person's mind.

You are free to accept to decline the offer, by letter, telephone or email, but you must respond in some fashion, otherwise your defection will likely be halted until a response is received.

Malari

Wow, the arrogance of the clergy is incredible. And "just doing what the bishop told me"...rings a bell, that one :rolleyes:

As other posters have said, just mail the bish again and reiterate what you've said, highlighting your disgust with the way he handled it.

I actually would have loved if the local priest had called round to my parents home to let them know what their wayward daughter was up to - my dad would have given him short shrift :pac:

ItisintheSTARS

Malari wrote: »

Wow, the arrogance of the clergy is incredible. And "just doing what the bishop told me"...rings a bell, that one :rolleyes:

As other posters have said, just mail the bish again and reiterate what you've said, highlighting your disgust with the way he handled it.

I actually would have loved if the local priest had called round to my parents home to let them know what their wayward daughter was up to - my dad would have given him short shrift :pac:

It is ridiculous that you should in the first place have to send a letter to 'DEFECT'.
It is time the individuals in the Catholic church stopped acting like 'control freaks 'and put their own personal houses in order.
Is it a Spiritual Christian oufit or an Army camp ?

Malari

ItisintheSTARS wrote: »

It is ridiculous that you should in the first place have to send a letter to 'DEFECT'.
It is time the individuals in the Catholic church stopped acting like 'control freaks 'and put their own personal houses in order.
Is it a Spiritual Christian oufit or an Army camp ?

Well, you don't have to send a letter but I don't know how else you would "defect".

And I would say that is exactly what the church is about - control!

Gordon

Interesting spelling error in the thread title!

Glenster

What's wrong with him asking why you left the church?
Surely that's what you want.

If you dont want anyone to know about it and no fuss made just stop going to mass and enter 'no religion' on the census.

Also why are you sooooooo upset about your parents finding out about it? Have the courage of your convictions.

My little brother printed off one of those forms because he is a troublemaker and wanted to stick it to the man but was too much of a stinking coward to send it.

Sounds like you're like him.


For future reference, if you want to keep something private from your parents, dont use their address genius.

Glenster

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

On the other hand I'd hazard a guess he's an old man who's never had a family, the fact he approaches the situation with so little tact and trying to drag in your parent to "talk some sense into you" is probably to be expected.

DING DONG

Priest: Hello Mr and Mrs Gordon, could I speak to Paul please?

Parents: No he doesnt live here, but sometimes says he does for some reason. Why did you want him?

Priest: Well he sent me this letter about him leaving the catholic church. Is everything all right with him?

Parents: A letter!?? Oh God he never told us about this, maybe he was abused by a priest or something?!?!? OH MY GOD!!!!!


Result; Priests are evil. Catholicism is a farce.

Malari

Glenster wrote: »

What's wrong with him asking why you left the church?
Surely that's what you want.

If you dont want anyone to know about it and no fuss made just stop going to mass and enter 'no religion' on the census.

Also why are you sooooooo upset about your parents finding out about it? Have the courage of your convictions.

My little brother printed off one of those forms because he is a troublemaker and wanted to stick it to the man but was too much of a stinking coward to send it.

Sounds like you're like him.


For future reference, if you want to keep something private from your parents, dont use their address genius.

Oh look, there's the point...about 6 feet to your left!

The OP never even told us what his parents' reaction was and it doesn't matter. The point is that the priest tried to use underhand tactics to dissuade him. I don't see a problem with the bishop contacting the person who wrote the letter or talking to him directly. OK, even calling to the house is fine, if a little invasive. But once the OP wasn't there he should have left it at that or written back to him.

Glenster

Malari wrote: »

The OP never even told us what his parents' reaction was and it doesn't matter.

Uh........agreed.

Malari wrote: »

The point is that the priest tried to use underhand tactics to dissuade him. I don't see a problem with the bishop contacting the person who wrote the letter or talking to him directly. OK, even calling to the house is fine, if a little invasive. But once the OP wasn't there he should have left it at that or written back to him.

The priest was trying to contact him directly, he didn't actively seek out the parents. I would assume that the priest thought that the parents knew that their son/daughter was leaving the church.

And what are these 'underhand tactics'? Telling your mommy? Grow a pair.

Ickle Magoo

Right, just swap it to any other kind of personal matter...

Say you wrote to the bank to close your account, the address of which was registered to your parents house and the bank manager called around and started trying to discuss your financial affairs with parents.

Sure, you'd be okay with that though. Sure you would. :rolleyes:

Malari

Glenster wrote: »

Uh........agreed.



The priest was trying to contact him directly, he didn't actively seek out the parents. I would assume that the priest thought that the parents knew that their son/daughter was leaving the church.

And what are these 'underhand tactics'? Telling your mommy? Grow a pair.

But that's the entire point! For all we know his parents were fine with it. But the priest shouldn't have read out a private letter to them. It was not his place to say anything to them. No more than a doctor should phone parents and talk about something private, NOT because the OP doesn't want the parents to know, but it's not the appropriate way to approach it. Get it??

Edit: Ickle beat me to it with the bank analogy!

robindch

Glenster wrote: »

Grow a pair.

The next insulting or pointless post will earn you a week's holiday.

The Mad Hatter

Glenster wrote: »

Uh........agreed.



The priest was trying to contact him directly, he didn't actively seek out the parents. I would assume that the priest thought that the parents knew that their son/daughter was leaving the church.

And what are these 'underhand tactics'? Telling your mommy? Grow a pair.

I've read people on this forum who've said that their parents kicked them out or stopped talking to them when they found out they were leaving the church. Not everyone comes from a cozy family.

Erren Music

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Right, just swap it to any other kind of personal matter...

Say you wrote to the bank to close your account, the address of which was registered to your parents house and the bank manager called around and started trying to discuss your financial affairs with parents.

Sure, you'd be okay with that though. Sure you would. :rolleyes:

That is crazy, just shows you how desperate the church are now.

Hopefully AI will run a census campaign to educate people about the dangers of mammies filling in census forms.

Glenster

Say your internet service provider rang up, looked for you, someone answered and said you weren't in (in this scenario you live in the house), they said they were ringing about the fact that you changed your internet provider. Is that wrong?


There seems a mentality in this forum that it's somehow worse if the church does it. No matter what it is. Objectivity.

Ickle Magoo

Glenster wrote: »

Say your internet service provider rang up, looked for you, someone answered and said you weren't in (in this scenario you live in the house), they said they were ringing about the fact that you changed your internet provider. Is that wrong?


There seems a mentality in this forum that it's somehow worse if the church does it. No matter what it is. Objectivity.

Have you left home yet? I'm getting the distinct impression from your posts that you haven't.

Whenever any service I pay for call to discuss anything, they ask to speak to the bill payer and they ask security questions - they don't just start randomly speculating with whomever picks up the phone why the person on their accounts is cancelling or whatever...

Glenster

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

I've read people on this forum who've said that their parents kicked them out or stopped talking to them when they found out they were leaving the church. Not everyone comes from a cozy family.

Actions have consequenses. If your parents are like that you have to decide whether you prefer living with them or having religious freedom.


I might have an urge to kill, I weigh that against my desire to live as a functioning member in society.

Erren Music

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Have you left home yet? I'm getting the distinct impression from your posts that you haven't.

Whenever any service I pay for call to discuss anything, they ask to speak to the bill payer and they ask security questions - they don't just start randomly speculating with whomever picks up the phone why the person on their accounts is cancelling or whatever...

They are not allowed to discuss with anyone else. It is a private matter.

I only wish the priest called to my house when I left.

Ickle Magoo

Erren Music wrote: »

They are not allowed to discuss with anyone else. It is a private matter.

Exactly...

Glenster

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Whenever any service I pay for call to discuss anything, they ask to speak to the bill payer and they ask security questions - they don't just start randomly speculating with whomever picks up the phone why the person on their accounts is cancelling or whatever...

If you were to ask them why they were calling, they'd say why.

And I have no doubt the parents asked why the priest was calling, it would be really creepy otherwise if the priest came calling asking for your son and you just told him he wasnt there and walked back inside to watch TV.

Glenster

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Have you left home yet? I'm getting the distinct impression from your posts that you haven't.

What does that have to do with anything? Stop trying to make everything personal.

I certainly would never lie about my address.

Erren Music

Glenster wrote: »

If you were to ask them why they were calling, they'd say why.

It is a private matter. Data protection exists for a reason.

Glenster wrote: »

And I have no doubt the parents asked why the priest was calling, it would be really creepy otherwise if the priest came calling asking for your son and you just told him he wasnt there and walked back inside to watch TV.

WTF

I would treat the priest with the same respect I have for jehova Witless, or scientologists and the tv license man.

knock knock

them: hel.....

me: door closing

Ickle Magoo

Glenster wrote: »

If you were to ask them why they were calling, they'd say why.

No, they wouldn't. I've tried to get info from accounts in my other-half's name & visa versa forgetting they weren't joint and companies will not discuss details with anyone bar the account holder.

Glenster wrote: »

And I have no doubt the parents asked why the priest was calling, it would be really creepy otherwise if the priest came calling asking for your son and you just told him he wasnt there and walked back inside to watch TV.

Do you even read the posts or is it just the reactionary jump-in you like?

The parish priest then proceeded to tell them why he was calling to see me ie i had writtin to the bishop wanting to defect from the Catholic Church. He then said the bishop had also requested that he speak with my parents to ask them why they thought i had made such a decision. He then proceeded to read to them the letter i had sent to the bishop and read to them at least 4 letters the bishop had sent him regarding my correspondence.

Dress it up however you like, it's a breech of trust, of confidentiality and completely unprofessional.

Glenster

Erren Music wrote: »

I would treat the priest with the same respect I have for jehova Witless, or scientologists and the tv license man.

knock knock

them: hel.....

me: door closing

Rude.

Glenster

Erren Music wrote: »

It is a private matter. Data protection exists for a reason.

Yeah, in banks and that, there would be no legal problem with the priest publishing the letter from the bloke in the paper. Of course he wouldn't do that, it would be rude. He just had a quiet word with the parents, to see if there was anything wrong with the bloke's experience of the church.

Goduznt Xzst

Glenster wrote: »

Actions have consequenses. If your parents are like that you have to decide whether you prefer living with them or having religious freedom.

You really do sound like a teenager with an opinion like this. The OP also is not living with his parents, he just didn't think it was right for them to be burdened with, for all intents and purposes, a situation that was his to deal with.

Not only is the priest discussing this matter with his parents a breach of the individuals privacy, but also shows a complete disregard and disrespect for the maturity of the individual in question. He's not a minor, his parents should not be privy to his actions without his consent.

This thread reminds of an episode of Seinfeld I watched recently where Elaine confided in a Rabbi her personal opinions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmtPXzXxl90

Glenster

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Do you even read the posts or is it just the reactionary jump-in you like?

I wont lie to you and say I dont like the reactionary jump in a bit, its human nature, rooting for the underdog.

Are you telling me that you think that the OP's post is a transcript of what happened, that I'm not allowed to extrapolate normal human behaviour into it?

Presumably the priest said hello before he started talking to the parents, am I not allowed to make that assumption either?

Common sense.

Ickle Magoo

Glenster wrote: »

What does that have to do with anything?

Your point would never have been made by someone who is the bill payer in the majority of services, it's got nothing to do with making it personal. If you come striding in shouting insults and making ridiculous statements that make you sound like you have no idea what you are getting your knickers in a twist about, you'll get that pointed out to you.

Glenster wrote: »

I certainly would never lie about my address.

What? Having a different mailing address to your home address is very common, it's not "lying". As long as the home owner doesn't mind, anyone can have a c/o address anywhere in the world. It's especially common to use a parental address until establishing a permanent address of your own just to save on the need to phone up 25 organisations to notify them of a change of address every time you move.

Malari

Glenster wrote: »

Yeah, in banks and that, there would be no legal problem with the priest publishing the letter from the bloke in the paper. Of course he wouldn't do that, it would be rude. He just had a quiet word with the parents, to see if there was anything wrong with the bloke's experience of the church.

He didn't - he read out personal letters. Forget about the legal side of it. If it was a letter to a friend or an ex or something it's inappropriate to read it out to the parents!

And as for the "lying" about your address comment. Seriously, Glenster, it is extremely common to use what is known as a "permanent" address for correspondance, as opposed to sending change of address forms left, right and centre. It is not lying!

Why exactly are you defending this?

Edit: Cripes, beaten to the punch by Ickle yet again!

Ickle Magoo

Glenster wrote: »

Common sense.

We clearly we have a different idea of what common sense is and when to apply it...

ETA: Sorry Malari :P

Glenster

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

You really do sound like a teenager with an opinion like this. The OP also is not living with his parents, he just didn't think it was right for them to be burdened with, for all intents and purposes, a situation that was his to deal with.

1. we were talking about 'other people' whose parents throw them out for defecting from the church


2. Hiding what you are doing from your parents is a sign of teenage-level immaturity

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

You really do sound like a teenager with an opinion like this.

'Attack the post meh-meh meh-meh'

if I had said that some lurking moderator would have carded me.

Ickle Magoo

Glenster wrote: »

'Attack the post meh-meh meh-meh'

if I had said that some lurking moderator would have carded me.

Perhaps, if it wasn't true and just being touted as a flame insult.

Unfortunately for you, so far your posts have done nothing to convince anyone that you've ever lived outside of your parents house to encounter any of the issues you appear to be so passionate about. As a result your posts have more than a hint of kevin & perry about them.

Glenster

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Your point would never have been made by someone who is the bill payer in the majority of services,

Well it was made by me and I do so.............

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

It's especially common to use a parental address until establishing a permanent address of your own just to save on the need to phone up 25 organisations to notify them of a change of address every time you move.

Never leave home then, that's much easier.

My point was that he's complaining that his parents were pulled into this, I'm saying he pulled his parents into this by using their address on the form.

old hippy

Glenster wrote: »

Say your internet service provider rang up, looked for you, someone answered and said you weren't in (in this scenario you live in the house), they said they were ringing about the fact that you changed your internet provider. Is that wrong?


There seems a mentality in this forum that it's somehow worse if the church does it. No matter what it is. Objectivity.

Completely different scenarios, bit of a lame comparison & insulting to those who have had their fill of the church.

Ickle Magoo

Glenster wrote: »

Well it was made by me and I do so.............

You pay all the bills? That's why you think a service provider will discuss the account with anyone who picks up the phone? You'll forgive my skepticism, won't you?! :pac:

Glenster wrote: »

Never leave home then, that's much easier.

My point was that he's complaining that his parents were pulled into this, I'm saying he pulled his parents into this by using their address on the form.

Are you serious? Don't leave home because using their address on correspondence may result in some random priest turning up and trying to coerce your parents into getting you to stay a member of their church? Seriously now? Lol.

The rest of the world works on the understanding that personal correspondence is just that, just because one member of the clergy lacks professionalism and breeches confidentiality is no reason why people can't use whatever postal address for their mail that they wish. That's why the issue is the priests behaviour and not the mailing address, it's not rocket science.

davef1000

Glenster, what part of 'the letter was not addressed to his parents' are you having difficulty with here?

Goduznt Xzst

Glenster wrote: »

2. Hiding what you are doing from your parents is a sign of teenage-level immaturity

It has nothing to do with hiding anything from your parents, it has to do with becoming an adult and removing the burden of your dealings from your parents shoulders.

toiletduck

Glenster wrote: »

The priest was trying to contact him directly, he didn't actively seek out the parents. I would assume that the priest thought that the parents knew that their son/daughter was leaving the church.

And what are these 'underhand tactics'? Telling your mommy? Grow a pair.

2. Hiding what you are doing from your parents is a sign of teenage-level immaturity

Maybe you'll learn someday that different people have different circumstances.

I got very angry reading what happened to the OP because I imagined myself in that scenario. It's cool that it didn't go pear shaped for him but for others it'd be a different story. For instance, I grew up in a very religious household. My Mother has been very sick for a few years now. The kind where there are regular visits from Nuns and calls from priests, relics being brought etc etc. Now while they know I'm not religious, I reckon they think I'm on a Catholic on some level merely because since the age of 17 I've learned that it's not worth bringing it up and the resulting arguments. If the OP's story happened to me, I can only imagine the grief and sadness it would bring to my parents, especially my Mum and in her condition it could actually do harm. And for what? To gratify some Bishop that he did his upmost to stop a young lad going through a phase leaving his corrupt organisation?


Grow a pair? Grow up.

Glenster

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

You pay all the bills? That's why you think a service provider will discuss the account with anyone who picks up the phone? You'll forgive my skepticism, won't you?! :pac:

Maybe I'm missing something, does everyone esle here not ask "and what would this be regarding" when someone calls the house for someone who isn't there.

So you can say,

"Mark, such-and-such called while you were out"

"what did they want"

"they wanted blah-blah"


Is that not normal? It's what everyone I've ever lived with does.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Are you serious?

Clearly not. Are you impervious to sarcasm?