Which should be punished harsher?

Stinicker

Following on from the Undertaking in the left lane thread; I have decided to run a poll. Which typical idiotic Irish driving trait should be punished harsher and what punishment should there be?

Driving with foglights on when there is no obvious fog or snow is particular hate of mine and typically this winter nearly every second or third car I encountered had the their front fog lights turned on. I find them harsh on the eyes and think it should be punished severely with a minimum €200 fine and 3 penalty points and 5 upon losing it in court. Rear footlights are less of a problem but occasionally you get some idiot with his on also when the need is not there.

Faulty blown bulbs; This is another uniquely Irish thing and I have had a few near misses because of it and it should also be punished severly. We should bring in rules like the have in Europe where you have to carry spare bulbs and fine people heavily for driving with blown or faulty lighting.

Bad Motorway driving, common things include, driving in the overtaking lane when unnecessary, driving too slow in the LH driving lane. I would favour a 90km/h minimum speed on our Motorways and variable speed limits on electronic gantries for times of fog etc.

Vanbis

Stinicker wrote: »

Driving with foglights on when there is no obvious fog or snow is particular hate of mine and typically this winter nearly every second or third car I encountered had the their front fog lights turned on. I find them harsh on the eyes and think it should be punished severely with a minimum €200 fine and 3 penalty points and 5 upon losing it in court. Rear footlights are less of a problem but occasionally you get some idiot with his on also when the need is not there.

This would be my NO 1, so annoying when driving and you see idiots with fog lights on and not a hint of fog or snow around.

mickdw

Stinicker wrote: »

Following on from the Undertaking in the left lane thread; I have decided to run a poll. Which typical idiotic Irish driving trait should be punished harsher and what punishment should there be?

Driving with foglights on when there is no obvious fog or snow is particular hate of mine and typically this winter nearly every second or third car I encountered had the their front fog lights turned on. I find them harsh on the eyes and think it should be punished severely with a minimum €200 fine and 3 penalty points and 5 upon losing it in court. Rear footlights are less of a problem but occasionally you get some idiot with his on also when the need is not there.

Faulty blown bulbs; This is another uniquely Irish thing and I have had a few near misses because of it and it should also be punished severly. We should bring in rules like the have in Europe where you have to carry spare bulbs and fine people heavily for driving with blown or faulty lighting.

Bad Motorway driving, common things include, driving in the overtaking lane when unnecessary, driving too slow in the LH driving lane. I would favour a 90km/h minimum speed on our Motorways and variable speed limits on electronic gantries for times of fog etc.

Some good ideas there. The bulb idea is good but with some modern cars, it can be difficult to change certain bulbs on the side of the road.
THe minimum limit on motorways is good too but knowing this country the electronic gantries would still be saying fog about a week after the event & therefore noone would ever pay attention to them.

EPM

I like the idea on the blown lights - real pet hate of mine. I usually carry a spare everything with me in the pocket under the seat anyway. Have the high vis stuff too.

Front fog lights don't really bother me if they are properly aligned to be honest. Rear fogs are much worse.

Variable limits I'd agree with on some stretches in poor conditions...but I'd imagine nobody would take a blind bit of notice:rolleyes:

sean1141

Stinicker wrote: »

Driving with foglights on when there is no obvious fog or snow is particular hate of mine and typically this winter nearly every second or third car I encountered had the their front fog lights turned on. I find them harsh on the eyes and think it should be punished severely with a minimum €200 fine and 3 penalty points and 5 upon losing it in court. Rear footlights are less of a problem but occasionally you get some idiot with his on also when the need is not there.

This is one thing that dosen't bother me in the least.. I would much rather see people with their fogs on than no lights at all on or just parking lights..

Stinicker wrote: »

Faulty blown bulbs; This is another uniquely Irish thing and I have had a few near misses because of it and it should also be punished severly. We should bring in rules like the have in Europe where you have to carry spare bulbs and fine people heavily for driving with blown or faulty lighting.

I aggre with you on this.. nothing wose than meeting a car with one headlight.. but have to say on some cars it is very hard to change a bulb when you know what you are doing.. it would be unreasonable to expect someone to change it on the side of the road at night. Should have to take the car in to garda station to make sure it has been changed with in one day.. only for dipped beam, 2 rear tailights and less than 2 brake lights.. parking light bulbs and number plate bulbs are not as important

Stinicker wrote: »

Bad Motorway driving, common things include, driving in the overtaking lane when unnecessary, driving too slow in the LH driving lane. I would favour a 90km/h minimum speed on our Motorways and variable speed limits on electronic gantries for times of fog etc.

max speed for trucks or cars/vans and jeeps towing a trailer is 80km/h IIRC Which is stupid. They should match the rest of the speed limit or at least 100km/h on motorways

Stinicker

Stinicker wrote: »

Driving with foglights on when there is no obvious fog or snow is particular hate of mine and typically this winter nearly every second or third car I encountered had the their front fog lights turned on. I find them harsh on the eyes and think it should be punished severely with a minimum €200 fine and 3 penalty points and 5 upon losing it in court. Rear footlights are less of a problem but occasionally you get some idiot with his on also when the need is not there.
.

You are joking right? 3 points and 200 euro for front fog lights on. That is the most ridiculous suggestion I have seen in a very long time.

Driving with blown blubs should be a small fine as an incentive but I don't think it could be treated as a severe offence.

I voted no to variable limits as they would be ignored so therefore pointless.

I would agree with better enforcement of motorway driving in general though, people hogging the overtaking lane being one of the worst things seen regularly by everyone.

BigEejit

Points for having front fogs on is over the top, but there should definitely be a fine. My last drive from Cork to Kerry at 11pm I stopped counting about halfway through the journey, at 30 :eek:. No rain, fog, snow, hail, drizzle or any other forms of water....
They were all annoying but some in particular were badly aligned or just overpowered and were blinding. Great for them, shít for everyone driving in the other direction. I wonder if they think the people flashing them are paying a compliment or something?:mad:

The minimum speed on motorways is not really feasable, what about all the speed limited vehicles (if such a truck/bus even exists :P)

bijapos

sean1141 wrote: »

max speed for trucks or cars/vans and jeeps towing a trailer is 80km/h IIRC Which is stupid. They should match the rest of the speed limit or at least 100km/h on motorways

Ehhhh, you ever town a heavy trailer? While you may be competent and have an ideal vehicle for towing a certain trailer, a lot of people do not. Higher speeds increase dramatically the risk of trailers swaying and people losing control.


Interested to see how this poll pans out, two hours into it and I'm gobsmacked by the amount of people who think driving with lights missing and with your fog lights on is fair game. And this on the motors forum :rolleyes:. I expected a bit more cop on tbh.

Stinicker

BigEejit wrote: »

Points for having front fogs on is over the top, but there should definitely be a fine. My last drive from Cork to Kerry at 11pm I stopped counting about halfway through the journey, at 30 :eek:. No rain, fog, snow, hail, drizzle or any other forms of water....
They were all annoying but some in particular were badly aligned or just overpowered and were blinding. Great for them, shít for everyone driving in the other direction. I wonder if they think the people flashing them are paying a compliment or something?:mad:

The minimum speed on motorways is not really feasable, what about all the speed limited vehicles (if such a truck/bus even exists :P)

I think points have to applied as it would really teach drivers a lesson a fine doesn't have the fear factor that points apply. Plus they would be the easiest points to avoid and only true idiots need get caught.

Another thing that should be implemented and I forgot to mention it in my original post was that the NCT should monitor the Lumens output of lights today as there are some Dipped Beams in certain cars as bright as any headlights and they pose a real safety hazard especially by night when it is raining. I have seen cars with lights brighter than fox lampers use by night to dazzle rabbits and we are expected to be able to drive against them. I don't know how many times my retinas have been burned by some idiot with lights bright enough to be visible from space.

Our current regulation IIRC sees car headlight power rated in terms of Watts and with new xenon and halogen bulbs they can output far more light than is safe on the same wattage as older bulbs used. There needs to be a safe lumens level established and made mandatory and fail cars in the NCT whose cars have bulbs that are too bright. These type of bulbs fitted in a van or SUV (at eye level for a car driver) coupled with the almost mandatory foglights turned on sees a massive ball of light hurtling towards you and it is no different than if I decided to stare at the sun for a few seconds.

Saab Ed

I'd ad causing a tailback to the list above. If you have more than 5 or 6 vehicles stuck behind you on any type of road outside an urban or residential area you should have to pull in and let them pass. Main culprits being HGV's and tractors on National Primary routes but it would equally apply to everybody driving anything.

Also you should have to be driving no lower than within 70% of the limit assigned to that section of road, i.e a minumum of 70kph in a 100kph zone. If you cant manage that then you really are a danger to others IMO.

GTE

With regards to fog lights:
I don't really care to be honest, I've yet to be blinded by any sort of front fog light, however the last time a car blinded me that had fog lights on had badly aligned dipped lights.
So, with regards to lights I think proper headlight alignment should be sought after rather then giving out about fog lights. Im not a fog light lover, my car doesnt have front ones but Im talking from the experience I have. Countless times dodgy alignment has caused me problems.

With bulbs:
I agree that a spare set bulbs should be kept in a car but I work in a service station and we are asked to replace bulbs quite often. Down side is that we have had to start saying no to this sometimes because more and more the newer cars that come in are very very difficult to actually change, actually even some of the 10 year old ones are a bitch to change too. You wont find the average owner being able to change a headlight bulb on all cars out there, not because of lack of skill but because of lack of getting into the ruddy things. Rear lights could be easier though.
I think that is going to be a very grey area.

Motorway:
I agree with all what you said.

GTE

Saab Ed wrote: »

I'd ad causing a tailback to the list above. If you have more than 5 or 6 vehicles stuck behind you on any type of road outside an urban or residential area you should have to pull in and let them pass. Main culprits being HGV's and tractors on National Primary routes but it would equally apply to everybody driving anything.

That could be a rough one to legislate. Would you have to pull in anywhere? How can you determine whether its safe? If someone tried to appeal would it mean there would have to be designated pull in spots on the roads you mention? If you don't someone could say, and quite rightly (or wrongly to get out of it) it was unsafe to do so.

I understand where you are coming from for the wider open roads but do you mean the regional roads too?

Zubeneschamali

sean1141 wrote: »

it would be unreasonable to expect someone to change it on the side of the road at night.

About one car in six is missing at least one bulb, by my count. These did not all blow yesterday. Or last week. Or last month.

People I would like to see really creased are the guys towing trailers after dark without any lights on the trailer at all. Their own rear lights are on, but obscured by the trailer.

JCDUB

I've no problem with front fog lights at all, never been dazzled by them or anything.

However the amount of people who drive around with their rear fog lights on, oblivious for days, is scandalous.

I regularly flash these people and then when I pass them flash my rear fogs on and off a few times but I know by the time I'm passing them they usually have done nothing, and are more than likely still oblivious long after I've passed them!!

Anan1

This is an easy one, introduce a simple system of on-the-spot tickets & points for incorrect lighting.

Berty

I selected emulating the European Standard however you need to add we need to carry a spare kit, hi viz and first aid kit. If you have that you may fix it before leaving the side of the road. If you cannot fix the blown bulbs:

You should not be able to move the car without fixing the problem and receive a fine.

If you do not have the first aid kit and hi viz, emergency triangle then you get a fine!

Manufacturers here do not provide you with the Hi Viz, First Aid Kit or Emergency Triangle because there is no legislation and it costs them money. If there was legislation then we would be advancing along a little.

Tigger

i have issue with the new hid bulbs or whatever they are
they put out more light than the 55w bulbs it is thier selling point but the std 55w bulds are limited to that for a reason; ie to not be too bright
many of these newer bulbs are dazziling
i have never been dazzeled by fogs but if people are being dazzeled then this should be stopped

Dr. Loon

Though the front fogs thing annoys me I can't say they've dazzled me either. It's the new HID or whatever that blind the **** out of ya. I have front fogs on my car and never use them, except for when there's fog funny enough. It's annoying because you know people only use them to look cool. At least that's what they think. Any normal motorist that encounters them is thinking "Idiot".

MetzgerMeister

Why do a lot of people hate to see others' fog lights on with no fog? I thought it would make the car even more visible as DRLs.

Tea 1000

einheisserschre wrote: »

Why do a lot of people hate to see others' fog lights on with no fog? I thought it would make the car even more visible as DRLs.

Rear fogs make the car a lot more visible, but unfortunately nothing else is visible cause you are blinded by them.
I think more than lights or lane dicipline combined new rules should be brought in for tyres. Ban all **** makes from being sold or imported and fine anyone heavily for driving with bald tyres.
I agree with a clamp down on lane dicipline etc, because I reckon if you enforce all the rules regularly it will cause people to become more aware in general for every aspect of their driving, which is what's needed, but tyres bug the crap out of me.
The amount of cars in the car park at work with bald or cheap tripe tyres or both is unreal. Considering the cheap quality road surface and amount of wet days we have here, unless you have decent tyres you just can't stop in time in an emergency.

Mc Love

There wasnt an option for banning Micra's off the roads altogether! Ten lashings of a whip to the owner too

Good poll though!

GTE

einheisserschre wrote: »

Why do a lot of people hate to see others' fog lights on with no fog? I thought it would make the car even more visible as DRLs.

Rear fogs dont seem to be dipped. They are throwing light directly out of the light housing so in normal weather they can be blinding.

Front fogs, at least the good ones and the ones fitted properly are in fact dipped/angled. The point of them is not to throw light out everywhere on front of you as that would give you less visibility in the fog. The front fogs are generally pointing down on the road so you get much better visibility for a shorter distance and then the fog doesn't interfere with the light beam.
If every light in the car was a laser beam then the fog beam would hit the ground first, followed by the dipped and then followed by the main beam probably.

So, as long as the alignment is right and it wasn't fitted by someone who doesn't know what he/she is doing and its quality equipment then they technically shouldn't dazzle people.

In the daytime I think front fogs do act more as DRL's and I have no problem with them however I believe DRL's are programmed to dim as the light fades as the light would dazzle in dusk and at night. So the problem is more with people who use fogs in the dusk and night.
The blanket generalisations for why people use fogs is wrong in my opinion, it may be for the majority of users but in no way can anyone logically say everyone who uses front fogs is doing it for the cool factor. Ridiculous.

But anyway, this thread is getting close to being slammed down on because of the fog content.

Dark-Mavis

einheisserschre wrote: »

Why do a lot of people hate to see others' fog lights on with no fog? I thought it would make the car even more visible as DRLs.

I agree with this in relation to front fog lights. Personally have never being dazzled by front fogs. Poorly aligned main beams and after market lights would be the main culprit of this imo.

People driving with rear fog lights on in clear conditions is another story.

Cookie_Monster

stop taking bout fog lights, you'll only get the thread locked

why the need for high vis jacket, I can understand triangles, bulb kit etc but would disagree with the need for high vis jackets. (i disagree with their use anywhere anyway esp cyclist and peds. Its such a nanny state rule :mad:)

GTE

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

stop taking bout fog lights, you'll only get the thread locked

why the need for high vis jacket, I can understand triangles, bulb kit etc but would disagree with the need for high vis jackets. (i disagree with their use anywhere anyway esp cyclist and peds. Its such a nanny state rule :mad:)

Why do you disagree with their use? Was that especially cyclists and pedestrians or except?

Mc Love

Before it gets locked on the FL issue, in most cars you have to actively turn on the fogs, so why do people do it when they have their side lights on, if its not foggy?

Cookie_Monster

bbk wrote: »

Why do you disagree with their use? Was that especially cyclists and pedestrians or except?

i think they are totally pointless and an excessive unnecessary over-hyped H&S rule that adds no benefit to anyone, unless it the middle of the night and everything else you are wearing is black

Seth Brundle

High viz jackets are a good idea for when a driver needs to change a wheel, etc.
They should give much better visibility to other road users and potentially save lives.

no1beemerfan

I cannot understand for the life of me why people get so het up about front fog lights. Rear fogs yes but front fogs Any front light that is off will glare. Front fogs are perfectly fine if adjusted correctly.

As for the motorways I couldn't agree more.

BlackWizard

Are Irish cars supposed to have a medical kit in the boot?

Cookie_Monster

BlackWizard wrote: »

Are Irish cars supposed to have a medical kit in the boot?

what are you required to have in the French/German ones?

considering the level of injury in a crash I'd imagine they are pretty useless in most cases.

Seth Brundle

no1beemerfan wrote: »

I cannot understand for the life of me why people get so het up about front fog lights. Rear fogs yes but front fogs Any front light that is off will glare. Front fogs are perfectly fine if adjusted correctly.

As for the motorways I couldn't agree more.

But the issue tends to be that they are all too frequently not aligned properly and/or used in conjunction with side lights only (even at night) and the fact that they serve no benefit to the driver in normal conditions but can the effect of causing unnecessary glare on oncoming road users.

BlackWizard wrote: »

Are Irish cars supposed to have a medical kit in the boot?

Nope. Irish cars only require tax, insurance and an NCT

Seth Brundle

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

what are you required to have in the French/German ones?

considering the level of injury in a crash I'd imagine they are pretty useless in most cases.

http://www.aaroadwatch.ie/eumotoring/compulsary.asp

Cookie_Monster

kbannon wrote: »

http://www.aaroadwatch.ie/eumotoring/compulsary.asp

that just says first aid kit though, doesn't say what has to be in it.

Tea 1000

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

i think they are totally pointless and an excessive unnecessary over-hyped H&S rule that adds no benefit to anyone, unless it the middle of the night and everything else you are wearing is black

hi viz jackets are the best method of saving your life as a cyclist. There is nothing better you can use. Stupid drivers in this country seem oblivious to cyclists, and many cyclists get hit by cars who are too blind to see them. I even wear mine during the day when cycling, it's just that dangerous out there.
If you can't see a cyclist wearing a high viz jacket, you should have your license revoked permamently.

no1beemerfan

kbannon wrote: »

But the issue tends to be that they are all too frequently not aligned properly and/or used in conjunction with side lights only (even at night) and the fact that they serve no benefit to the driver in normal conditions but can the effect of causing unnecessary glare on oncoming road users.

I agree a lot are not aligned correctly but my point is I've no problem with the ones aligned correctly.

The people that only use side lights with them at night are only asking for trouble.

On kits in the car in mine I've a high vis vest, spare bulbs of each type, hose clips, fuses, jump leads, basic tools, a first aid kit, waterproof clothing and knee pads!

Seth Brundle

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

that just says first aid kit though, doesn't say what has to be in it.

I misread your question to be what must be in the car.
Anyhow I gather that (in Germany) it has to meet DIN 13164:
http://translate.google.ie/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.drk.de%2Fangebote%2Ferste-hilfe-und-rettung%2Ferste-hilfe-online%2Fwunden%2Fverbandskasten-din-13164.html&sl=de&tl=en

Stinicker

no1beemerfan wrote: »

I agree a lot are not aligned correctly but my point is I've no problem with the ones aligned correctly.

The people that only use side lights with them at night are only asking for trouble.

On kits in the car in mine I've a high vis vest, spare bulbs of each type, hose clips, fuses, jump leads, basic tools, a first aid kit, waterproof clothing and knee pads!

It is not the point whether they cause dazzle or not they should not be used when there is no fog and should be punished accordingly. And as anan1 said earlier there should be on the spot tickets with points and fines for all manner of incorrect lighting from blown bulbs to that unlit farmers trailer that is an accident waiting to happen. I don't care whether fog lights are aligned properly or not they should be banned except in fog or snow.

In January there was a few days of awful fog and my sister and her friend were going somewhere (in the friends car) and they asked me how to turn on the foglights. The front fogs were on and when I pointed this out her answer was "But they're my spotlights, wheres the foglights?" "Sure, I couldn't see a bit without them" :eek: Jesus wept.

I also beleive that "spotlights" is a term the average Irish motorist have picked up from snakeoil motors salesmen and I bet if we had an Irish Top Gear and it did a survey that between 33% and 50% of Irish road users would be equally ill-informed. Ignorance is not an excuse and it should be punished, such ignorant opinions of foglights in the poll in a damning indicator of just simply how stupid and uneducated the average Irish driver is.

In my car boot I take with me:

A high visibility hazard jacket x 3
A first aid kit including bandages, scissors, paracetamol, scissors, eyewash and rubber gloves and a first aid manual.
I also take a handy emergency kit of spare car fuses and bulbs, including a few screwdrivers and a mini vicegrip.
Jumper leads
I have a waterproof mack (from Niagra falls!)
A windup torch so when you need it the batteries aren't dead!)
I also have an old curtain which will allow me to keep my clothes clean if changing a flat.
A 12v cigar air compressor and a can of tyre weld.

In the cabin I carry a high visibility vest, a small maglite torch and a road atlas, my last piece of kit is a disposable camera and a charged mobile without a sim which would allow me to ring 112 or 999 in the event of an accident and my own phone was dead or I forgot. The disposable camera has proved handy in documenting a previous car accident and I always take one and throw it away every year if not used to keep the film fresh.

So you are wondering where do I fit any groceries etc? I carry most of this kit in a corner of the boot and under the carpet around the spare wheel. They add very little to the weight <10kg and are invaluable things to have in any car. During the snow in January I also had a shovel with a short handle and and two hessian sacks which allowed me to clear any snow and use the sacks to give the wheels traction on the ice, I didn't need them afterwards but better safe than sorry.

A first aid kit may be of no use at a big accident but I was visiting my aunt the other day and her husband cut his hand on barbed wire and it came in handy as they had no sticking plasters! Bandages could be used to apply pressure to a wound in a traffic accident and stop a casualty from bleeding to death. So even these things are recommended it is better to have them in any eventuality than not.

Mc Love

The whole spotlight/foglight thing is a whole other thread

zilog_jones

I agree to making spare bulbs, high-vis jackets and first aid kits a mandatory requirement.

Retrofitted HID bulbs in headlamp units not designed for them should be made illegal. The amount of glare from these is unreal. I have no problem with HIDs in proper installations, with auto self-levelling, lens cleaners, etc. People with dodgy lights, terrible alignment, insecure bulbs bouncing around the place (I cannot understand how people manage this) should get fines and or points.

People who think it's OK to reverse, pull a U-ey or drive on the hard shoulder on main roads/motorways should be thrown into the sun, along with those who think it's alright to put their full beams on when cars in front are still visible.

Berty wrote: »

If you have that you may fix it before leaving the side of the road. If you cannot fix the blown bulbs:

You should not be able to move the car without fixing the problem and receive a fine.

As others have said it can be quite complicated to change headlight bulbs in many modern cars. On my car I have to pull out the grille and remove the headlamp units completely - this is not something I'd risk my life doing on a hard shoulder of a motorway or national road. Motorways here need more service areas.

I agree with Tea 1000 about cyclists wearing high-vis jackets - cyclists out in the dark wearing dark clothes with nothing but little flashy lights are mad if they think they're visible.

jackofalltrades

People with more than one bulb blown should get penalty points.
Spare bulbs kits should be mandatory to carry and if stoped by the guards with one bulb blown you should have the choice of fitting it on the spot or showing up at an NCT test centre within the next 24/48 hours to show that you have replaced the bulb.

Driving with foglights on when its not foggy should be a 1 penalty point offence. They throw out too much light at night when used with dips and when their misaligned there blinding. They also obscure you're view of the road at night, which can cause problem on very narrow roads when you're trying to pass someone else.

More of a problem than not keeping left on a dual carriageway is bad/dangerous merging, they need to send these people to night courses on how to drive properly.

Agree with having high-vis jackets part of mandatory kit after coming across and accident at night on the M8 with only one hazard light visible and two kids waving their hands frantically in the dark as the only other warning sign.

Mc Love

Very good post