Electric cars

Yorky

For someone who normally keeps a car for ten years or more, is there a risk that in that time the internal combustion engine will become obselete and/or subject to punitive tax rates?

There's much in the media at the moment about electric cars and am not averse to them but the range makes them prohibitive for rural areas and makeing several journeys in the course of each day.

Any thoughts on this?

Tefral

Yorky wrote: »

For someone who normally keeps a car for ten years or more, is there a risk that in that time the internal combustion engine will become obselete and/or subject to punitive tax rates?

There's much in the media at the moment about electric cars and am not averse to them but the range makes them prohibitive for rural areas and makeing several journeys in the course of each day.

Any thoughts on this?

Electric cars wont be replacing internal combustion engine cars anytime in the near-medium future. This whole thing is just a green party pipedream.

Theres no leap in battery technology or anything to support their wishes. I can see hydrogen being the way forward to be honest.

peasant

Punitive tax rates for normal cars will more likely come because we're broke.
And if enough people switch to electric cars you can bet your life on it that there will be some form of expensive tax on them as well.

Motorists are for fleecing as far as the governement is concerned.

Darsad

Electric cars are estimated to cost manufacturers 2.5 times the cost of a conventional Models and the best economy of scales will only see a possible reduction to 2 times so any vehicles produced or put on the market are simply concessions to the green lobby and seen by the manufacturers as a positive marketing tool ! Mini , Renault and Mitsubishi see no potential for profit with the EVs in the european market place but see the benefit in terms of perception.
I suppose a kind of loss leader .

Atlantic Dawn

It will be a good 40 or 50 years before you have to worry about any majority of cars going away from the combustion engine. Look at hybrids, out for over 10 years and you would be lucky to get 2% of the cars on the road being hybrid. Ireland would need to go nuclear to support them but I suppose we already are by using the UK nuclear power.

Overature

yeah i woud not count on engines being obsolete, those new electric charging meters going up around dublin, take like two hours to charge 80% of a battery and we really need a bigger leap foward in battery technology before fully electric cars become reliable,

those new electric meters are just "feel goods" that the government are doing to show the world that they are against global warming. hydrogen and hybrids are going to happen first.

Tigger

donno what the crazyness with hydrogen and hybrids is
bio fuel is the way to go

etanol for petrol and rapeseed oil for diesel
we should be growing it here instead of all the stupid inefficient ideas the greens put forward

slimjimmc

Tigger wrote: »

donno what the crazyness with hydrogen and hybrids is
bio fuel is the way to go

etanol for petrol and rapeseed oil for diesel
we should be growing it here instead of all the stupid inefficient ideas the greens put forward

The CEO the UK's Royal Society of Chemistry seems to advocate mixed technologies.
http://www.rsc.org/AboutUs/News/PressReleases/2008/LandForBiofuels.asp

ART6

peasant wrote: »

Punitive tax rates for normal cars will more likely come because we're broke.
And if enough people switch to electric cars you can bet your life on it that there will be some form of expensive tax on them as well.

Motorists are for fleecing as far as the governement is concerned.

If we run our cars on biofuel then it will attract tax (or what is laughingly called "excise duty" to attempt to hide the fact that is simply a tax), and that tax will increase year on year, in this case to protect the vegetable environment and discourage people from growing biofuel crops instead of food.

If we run them on hydrogen, derived from the electolysis of water, then we will be punatively taxed as that will be taking much needed water from the mouths of the poor people in Ethiopia and will be using energy generated by fossil fuelled power stations. If the water used doesn't come from the Shannon then the hydrogen will also attract "duty".

Meanwhile, ministerial limos will not be affected and nor will the governmet jet.

We are not governed by fools. We are governed by crooks and we are the fools because we put up with it:mad:

*Mods aplologies for turning this thread into a rant but sometimes these things have to be said*

zilog_jones

cronin_j wrote: »

I can see hydrogen being the way forward to be honest.

Production of hydrogen fuel use uses too much energy, and storage is a big problem (it has to be compressed or frozen). I think it's still a very long way off being a viable alternative.

Tigger wrote: »

etanol for petrol and rapeseed oil for diesel
we should be growing it here instead of all the stupid inefficient ideas the greens put forward

Using land to grow crops for fuel instead of food is a very controversial subject, and there's certainly not enough space in this country to make us self sufficient. A significant amount of Maxol's bio-ethanol is made from whey, a waste product from cheese manufacturing - a much better solution than growing crops exclusively for fuel.

TheGobb

Overature wrote: »

yeah i woud not count on engines being obsolete, those new electric charging meters going up around dublin, take like two hours to charge 80% of a battery and we really need a bigger leap foward in battery technology before fully electric cars become reliable,.

why can't they put 2 batteries in a car, one to be charged while the other is being used.? Would that not be an idea instead of having to have charging meters

zilog_jones

TheGobb wrote: »

why can't they put 2 batteries in a car, one to be charged while the other is being used.? Would that not be an idea instead of having to have charging meters

Electric cars have loads of battery cells in them, and they are quite heavy. If you're suggesting some way of swapping batteries you'd probably need something like a pallet truck to move them.

TheGobb

zilog_jones wrote: »

Electric cars have loads of battery cells in them, and they are quite heavy. If you're suggesting some way of swapping batteries you'd probably need something like a pallet truck to move them.

ok well that explains it
Sorry did not read this properly. What I wasasking is why not put two batteries in the car, one to drive it and charge the other while its driving and when number one is flat number two take over. But i guess your answer is the same, batteries too big? Thanks. I am genuinely puzzled as to why in the 21st century they could not make a battery small enough to have two at the same time

Seweryn

Tigger wrote: »

bio fuel is the way to go

etanol for petrol and rapeseed oil for diesel
we should be growing it here instead of all the stupid inefficient ideas the greens put forward

Bio fuel is a cul de sac way. This country has tiny population, but to run our own cars we would need a field area bigger than Spain just to grow the crops for bio fuels. Now if you take a country like the UK, you can see that they would need the whole Europe to convert into bio fuel fields...
It simply is not going to work...

RandomAccess

zilog_jones wrote: »

Electric cars have loads of battery cells in them, and they are quite heavy. If you're suggesting some way of swapping batteries you'd probably need something like a pallet truck to move them.

Ta-da !! A bit better than a pallet truck.
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/05/better-place-electric-car-battery-swap-video-demonstration-japan.php

I guess you would have to lease the battery in this case, otherwise you would be pissed when you end up with a battery that loses charge after an hour. Imagine swapping phone/laptop batteries with a stranger on the street, their one could be knackered.

Stinicker

True Electric only cars have a long way to go and the internal engine will be with us for a long long time yet. However the engine of tomorrow will be something akin to your lawnmower engine today happily purring away at a constant efficient RPM turning a generator charging a battery for the electric motor when the batteries have gone low.

Rechargeable hybrids like the Chevrolet Volt are will create seismic changes in the market as it is only in this decade that Hybrids will become mainstream, stylish and efficent. Toyota's Prius is ugly and not rechargeable so is hardly a market changer.

Until Hurricane Katrina spiked Oil in the US most people were opting for bigger and bigger sized engines and 5 tonne V12 5.0l <10MPG SUVs were selling like hotcakes in the US and gas was $1.90/gallon and credit was cheap and easy. Its a different story today and the average yank is thinking efficiency and gas is expensive.

Plugin Electric hybrids will deliver efficiency and they cna be powered by ethanol or bio Diesel if wanted eventually. We must also not forget the German Diesel engine which has been the benchmark for efficiency for the last 40 years.

One thing that we will be saying goodbye to over the next decade as hybrids catch on is Manual gearboxes as gearboxes will no longer be required. Standard Automatics are growing in popularity every year and VW's DSG box is already miles ahead of the farmers manual and Hybrids eradicate need for it completely. Once supercapacitor technology is fine honed and developed batteries will be consigned to history and you can refuel your hybrid electric car in minimal time like filling Petrol now.

The future is going to be efficent, cheap and almost oil free. GM will dominate the motor industry again and Toyota will soon collapse as GM launches stylish efficient cars. The opel ampera (Chevy Volt) will be the 21st century Model-T.

thebman

Seweryn wrote: »

Bio fuel is a cul de sac way. This country has tiny population, but to run our own cars we would need a field area bigger than Spain just to grow the crops for bio fuels. Now if you take a country like the UK, you can see that they would need the whole Europe to convert into bio fuel fields...
It simply is not going to work...

We do have massive ocean off our west coast and I don't see any reason why you could not grew fuel crops there. As far as I know, its already been done on small scale to show it can be done.

Given about two thirds of the earth is water (of course you'd have to remove deep ocean), this would seem like the way to go if you want to create biofuels as it leaves the farmlands for farming and we already ate all the fish.

1948Wolseley

Stinicker wrote: »

The opel ampera (Chevy Volt) will be the 21st century Model-T.

Yes but have you seen the thing?? The Prius is a lot better looking, as is just about everything else on the road. I'd rather have a real Model T, which runs on just about anything and doesn't look like a sci-fi spaceship gone horribly wrong.

Stinicker

1948Wolseley wrote: »

Yes but have you seen the thing?? The Prius is a lot better looking, as is just about everything else on the road. I'd rather have a real Model T, which runs on just about anything and doesn't look like a sci-fi spaceship gone horribly wrong.

The Toyota prius looks like it was designed by a three year old with a box of crayons. The Opel Ampera looks a good bit different from the volt. The Ampera represents new thinking and a vision of how 21st century cars are headed. The Toyota well will always be a Toyota and no matter how they dress it up or green wash the thing it will always be bland. Opels styling of the ampera draws from the successful insignia.

Prius
Ampera
Chevy Volt, back, front

positron

TheGobb wrote: »

why can't they put 2 batteries in a car, one to be charged while the other is being used.? Would that not be an idea instead of having to have charging meters

Heard a discussion on this on Newstalk a couple of days ago, and the spokesperson for electric cars initiative explained how this is going to work. According to him, Renault and I think Nissan (not sure) are to operate a scheme where buyers buy car, but without battery. They then lease the battery from Renault/Nissan etc. Car owners will have an account opened with the service provider, and anytime the car is low on charge, they go to one of these service stations, and just exchange the battery to a fully charged one, and off you go in minutes. And the car owners account would be debited for the exact amount used in the prev. battery, all cashless etc.

Apart from the quick turn around at the service station, the other reason for this was that the battery packs are apparently what costs upto 50% of the price of the car. So by leasing it, buyers would only need to pay half the price of the car, making it more or less closer to the current prices for cars.

So I heard..!

1948Wolseley

Stinicker wrote: »

The Toyota prius looks like it was designed by a three year old with a box of crayons. The Opel Ampera looks a good bit different from the volt. The Ampera represents new thinking and a vision of how 21st century cars are headed. The Toyota well will always be a Toyota and no matter how they dress it up or green wash the thing it will always be bland. Opels styling of the ampera draws from the successful insignia.

Prius
Ampera
Chevy Volt, back, front

Ok, I'll give you that one, the Ampera is better looking than the Volt. Despite what everyone says about pure electric cars, I'd still rather a Tesla Model S.

robtri

feck the tesla..... i will have this bad boy

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/01/22/shelby-supercars-reveals-new-plans-for-ultimate-aero-ev-that-inc/

Seweryn

Seweryn wrote: »

Bio fuel is a cul de sac way. This country has tiny population, but to run our own cars we would need a field area bigger than Spain just to grow the crops for bio fuels. Now if you take a country like the UK, you can see that they would need the whole Europe to convert into bio fuel fields...
It simply is not going to work...

you can factory farm algae, i.e in buildings - you build UP!

thebman

positron wrote: »

Heard a discussion on this on Newstalk a couple of days ago, and the spokesperson for electric cars initiative explained how this is going to work. According to him, Renault and I think Nissan (not sure) are to operate a scheme where buyers buy car, but without battery. They then lease the battery from Renault/Nissan etc. Car owners will have an account opened with the service provider, and anytime the car is low on charge, they go to one of these service stations, and just exchange the battery to a fully charged one, and off you go in minutes. And the car owners account would be debited for the exact amount used in the prev. battery, all cashless etc.

Apart from the quick turn around at the service station, the other reason for this was that the battery packs are apparently what costs upto 50% of the price of the car. So by leasing it, buyers would only need to pay half the price of the car, making it more or less closer to the current prices for cars.

So I heard..!

Bet they make it as wonderful as windows licenses. If you use non-standard radio, you breach the license :P

It seems kind of a rip off to spend 10,000 euro on something or whatever they will cost and not actually own it (its useless without a battery) and then lease the rest of your car that can't do more than 100 miles without needing you to stop for 20 minutes to 8 hours to recharge.

Thats assuming they aren't being liberal with recharge times/mileage from charge and I've never seen a device that uses batteries that was honest about battery performance.

TheGobb

positron wrote: »

Heard a discussion on this on Newstalk a couple of days ago, and the spokesperson for electric cars initiative explained how this is going to work. According to him, Renault and I think Nissan (not sure) are to operate a scheme where buyers buy car, but without battery. They then lease the battery from Renault/Nissan etc. Car owners will have an account opened with the service provider, and anytime the car is low on charge, they go to one of these service stations, and just exchange the battery to a fully charged one, and off you go in minutes.

But you would be swapping fairly often wouldn't you? My understanding is you get ony a couple hundred miles on a charge?

thebman

TheGobb wrote: »

But you would be swapping fairly often wouldn't you? My understanding is you get only less than hundred miles on a charge?

FYP

TheGobb

thebman wrote: »

FYP

What does FYP mean in this context?

Alanstrainor

TheGobb wrote: »

What does FYP mean in this context?

Fixed Your Post

He amended it to say "less than 100 miles"

TheGobb

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Fixed Your Post

ok

He amended it to say "less than 100 miles"

less than 100 miles on a charge? wow!

thebman

TheGobb wrote: »

ok

less than 100 miles on a charge? wow!

yes its something like 82 assuming they are honest and that is motorway speeds, I'd barely make it home to see my parents.

I doubt its at motorway speeds. My housemate would have to stop to recharge before he'd get home :pac:

Its for daily commuting and nothing much else IMO.

positron

The whole point of leasing agreement on the battery is that you don't need to recharge it, hence avoiding the recharge time! You can just swap it to a fully charged one when you are running low.

They also said there could be recharging stations at supermarket car parks etc, so that people can charge (probly for free too) or at home, if they wish to do so, but most often, on the road, if you are low, you just drive into a fuel station, and exchange the battery for a fully charged one.