Bayern Munich vs. Manchester United

Memnoch

PHB wrote: »

That's an hilarious statement. It's not a fact because you think it is. What about the World Cup? What about the World Club Championship? Ultimately, some people think, myself included, that the Champions League is in fact not a league, but a cup. As such, it isn't as true a test of skill as a league. The Premiership for me will be the most important as its endemic of a performance over the season. The CL is just a harder FA Cup, and nobody will claim the FA Cup is more important than the league. As such, its a matter of opinion.

If the Champions League was in fact, a league, then I think I'd value it more, but its not.

Good points PHB. I think the issue with the CL is that there are too many rubbish games with forgone conclusions in the opening stages (though there are always some fun upsets).

Still, it's the later stages of the competition that make it stand out and above a national league. Where else do you see Inter vs Chelsea, or Man U vs Barca, or Arsenal vs Barca.

The best teams in the world, fighting it out. The club world championship is a step down sadly because most of the strongest club teams are European.

Gone Drinking

The league is a clubs bread and butter, no point claiming to be champions of Europe, if you're not champions of your own country.

Champions league is a massive trophy, but the League will always be more important

Ush1

Gone Drinking wrote: »

The league is a clubs bread and butter, no point claiming to be champions of Europe, if you're not champions of your own country.

Champions league is a massive trophy, but the League will always be more important

Course there's a point. Massive financial bonus for winning the CL.

LuckyLloyd

Yeah it's always been European competition for me, or International tournaments. From an entertainment perspective, and in terms of all a team's efforts and emotion being invested in an individual 90 (or 120!) minutes, they are far superior to league football.

But it is ultimately individual opinion and not a matter that can be objectively proven.

What I think you could say with some certainty, is that Alex Ferguson obviously values the CL as of equal (and maybe greater) importance to the league on the basis of his historic team selections in the post group stages. The fans may not see it that way, but the likes of PHB and Mitch Connor seem to be at odds with their manager and players on the subject (which they are perfectly entitled to be).

ROCKMAN

The champions league is important and more so in the financially motivated modern game . The financial rewards of a good run in the competition can made or break a club ,Yes the big big games will get the fans attend and their blood boiling ,if you are lucky enough to have your club get to the final ,it becomes massive and so easy to get caught up in the spectacle and the emotion of the occasion with the winning buzz lasting a hell of along time.

However the League is the Holy Grail that ever club and their fans seeks and aspires to every year.To the clubs its their bread and butter , their history .For the Fans its about emotion ,pride, passion ,one-up manship ,history, rivalry and reward . Its about the long journey over the season ,the ups and downs. The bitter sweet taste of success over the old enemy or the horrible choking feeling after a derby loss when all you have to look forward to is the dream of revenge next time/season. Its about the year long banter and windups , The good or bad Monday morning feelings .And if you are lucky enough, the overwhelming joy and relief at the end of a successful season.

For me its no competition League ever time.

.

...

Boskowski

PHB wrote: »

That's an hilarious statement. It's not a fact because you think it is. What about the World Cup? What about the World Club Championship? Ultimately, some people think, myself included, that the Champions League is in fact not a league, but a cup. As such, it isn't as true a test of skill as a league. The Premiership for me will be the most important as its endemic of a performance over the season. The CL is just a harder FA Cup, and nobody will claim the FA Cup is more important than the league. As such, its a matter of opinion.

If the Champions League was in fact, a league, then I think I'd value it more, but its not.

Why is that hilarious? Actually its hilarious to call it that.

For starters you should read what I wrote. How could you mention the World Cup? Last time I looked the World Cup was no club competition.

Secondly the World Club competition is just some meaningless add-on that no-one cares about and that has no real financial merits either.

The Champions League is the club competition of the richest and best leagues of the world, the European leagues. It is the most financially rewarding competition by far and attracts the highest television and gates interest.

League is bread and better, Champions League is the big one.

Boskowski

PHB wrote: »

...but a cup. As such, it isn't as true a test of skill as a league.

You should tell that those Kilkenny ****ers....

Boskowski

Memnoch wrote: »

Good points PHB. I think the issue with the CL is that there are too many rubbish games with forgone conclusions in the opening stages (though there are always some fun upsets).

I take your other points but thats not an argument. How many rubbish league games are there every year. A lot more obviously.
And is Wigan vs Liverpool not a foregone conclusion (SCNR you know what I mean though)?
See you may call it a foregone conclusion but for the supporters of Olympiakos its not when they're playing Real Madrid. All their hopes hang on the off chance they might get a great day and topple the big favourites. Same as it is for the Wolves supporters playing United.

kryogen

Champions League is a cup competition, a great quality one, a very lucrative one, the entetainment factor is normally excllent due to its nature (knock outs especially) but ultimately its a cup

The league is the real test imo, the best team over the course of the season wins the league (regardless of what Sky say)

In a cup competition, especially when it gets to the knock outs any team can turn up on a given day and beat any other team

Variance balances out over the course of a league generally, in a cup game one bit of luck, good or bad, can decide the game

no matter what you want to say, one bit of luck will never decide the league

for the record, plenty of united players are on record as saying the league is the number 1 priority each year, champions league is always a main target also, but the league s the true test of a squad

Paul4As

flahavaj wrote: »

I've been saying for a couple of years now that Carrick isn't up to it, so I don't disagree one bit with your starting midfield.

I question Carrick's ability sometimes...but he has a 100% record in winning Premier League titles with United...he won the league title in his first season with Man U and has since won another two...3 in a row with about of an average of 30 league appearances in each of those seasons!
He also played the full 120 minutes versus Chelsea in the Champions League win scoring a penalty in the shoot-out!
It is hard to argue with those facts that he makes some form of contribution!

Headshot

Paul4As wrote: »

I question Carrick's ability sometimes...but he has a 100% record in winning Premier League titles with United...he won the league title in his first season with Man U and has since won another two...3 in a row with about of an average of 30 league appearances in each of those seasons!
He also played the full 120 minutes versus Chelsea in the Champions League win scoring a penalty in the shoot-out!
It is hard to argue with those facts that he makes some form of contribution!

Boggles

Headshot wrote: »

Not the same Headshot and you know it FFS.

Spud83

Jesus Carrick was poor last night, but so was Fletcher, Park, Scholes, Neville, and Evra. There is no point singling him out last night. The team lost the game.

SlickRic

Momo!!

as the Liverpool fan I am, wanting your team to do as well as humanly possible, I'd recommend you sign him.

the ball never hits his shins, ever. i promise. :rolleyes:

Headshot

Boggles wrote: »

Not the same Headshot and you know it FFS.

boggles no offence mate but you use the same excuse as Paul4As to justify carricks performance since he came to utd, Carrick has been carried since he came to utd, only for paul or fletch we'd be in trouble imo

I know our midfield was brutal last night but why im not picking on the other 2 because they've proven this season and numerous other seasons they are utd quality, carrick for me has never shown this on a consistent manner

Ush1

Still think United will win the tie but would be great if Bayern beat them. That means if Lyon beat Bord they have Bayern, 2nd leg at the Gerland. Fancy Lyon in that case.

The Muppet

Bah, Bad night, we scored too early IMO and never really settled into teh game. Missed a few chances, but bayern were good for their golas too as they miss a few sitters too.

We still have a good chance of going through.

Whats the latest on Rooney for Saturday?


I like and rate Carrick but there's no getting away from it, he was poor last night.

Vanbis

The Muppet wrote: »

Whats the latest on Rooney for Saturday?

Rooney missing for 4 weeks according to SSN.

The Muppet wrote: »

I like and rate Carrick but there's no getting away from it, he was poor last night.

He was poor along with a few others last night, as much as i hate him he wasn't the only one to blame.

Ush1

The Muppet wrote: »

Whats the latest on Rooney for Saturday?

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Wayne-Rooney-injury-Manchester-United-fear-England-star-will-be-out-for-four-weeks-article375445.html

speedboatchase

As a neutral, very excited for the second leg now. Looking forward to seeing what the hype is about Gomez and the Robben/Ribery partnership on the flanks. Still think Utd will nick it in the end though

Raytown Rocks

Looks like a 2 to 4 week spell on the sidelines for Wayne Rooney

http://www.teamtalk.com/news/2483/6066456/Report-Two-to-four-weeks-out-for-Rooney

The Muppet

Bad news re Rooney.:(

keane2097

All these reports about Rooney are nothing but hot air at the moment.

The team stayed in Munich last night - there's no way there's been a scan done on the ankle yet.

Mitch Connor

Scans won't have been done, but I would imagine the united physios and doctors have some idea of what the issue is

Boggles

Reports from 2 weeks til out for the world cup.

Press have no idea.

Boskowski

speedboatchase wrote: »

As a neutral, very excited for the second leg now. Looking forward to seeing what the hype is about Gomez and the Robben/Ribery partnership on the flanks. Still think Utd will nick it in the end though

Gomez scored 30 plus last year with Stuttgart, has been the record Bundesliga transfer at 30m Euro but hasn't really come into gears in Munich yet. Having said that he's after overcoming a complete loss of form at the start of the season and his tally is now at 10 or so. Olic has been the signing of the season coming for free from Hamburg.

Ribery & Robben when on fire can tear anyone a new hole. Anyone. Robben is such a high speed, quick feet dribbler he sometimes looks absolutely unstoppable. Unfortunately that makes him fairly prone to knocks and strains.
Together with Schweini and then van Bommel for the dirty work we're looking at one of the best attacking midfields in Europe.

Still would rate Utd as favourites, too. I mean leaving Utd supporters insane pre-match expectations aside (0:3, 0:4 :rolleyes:) 2:1 is still a good result for Utd. But at the same time I think Bayern rocked them a bit yesterday and with Schweini and Robben back we're certainly having a chance. Utd will have to play more open at home, Bayern is one up after all, and the aforementioned will be dangerous on the break. Plus there may be no Rooney what may also be a factor. Looking forward to it, too.

Boskowski

keane2097 wrote: »

All these reports about Rooney are nothing but hot air at the moment.

The team stayed in Munich last night - there's no way there's been a scan done on the ankle yet.

They do have doctors and hospitals in Munich u know.

The Muppet

Boskowski wrote: »

They do have doctors and hospitals in Munich u know.

United may even have had their own medical team out there strange and all as that would be.:)

BERBA

Boggles wrote: »

Ah Carrick haters.

United were 1-0 up when he went off.

i luv carrick , we got 18.6m for him , quality

projectmayhem

Boskowski wrote: »

Plus there may be no Rooney what may also be a factor. Looking forward to it, too.

Which gives our woeful defense a chance to breathe a bit. They can hold off any attacker that's not overly dynamic.... except for our masked crusader, Demichelis, who's more likely to pass it to the opposition and give them space to knock it towards the goal then, you know, actually defend.

kryogen

BERBA wrote: »

i luv carrick , we got 18.6m for him , quality

as much as i hate the man

ye got 18.6 million for him, we got 3 league titles and a champions league among other things, money spent well enough tbh

how have ye done since he left?

dont make me defend him again please

Ush1

kryogen wrote: »

as much as i hate the man

ye got 18.6 million for him, we got 3 league titles and a champions league among other things, money spent well enough tbh

how have ye done since he left?

dont make me defend him again please

A squad won those things, not Carrick.

kryogen

Ush1 wrote: »

A squad won those things, not Carrick.

well if it isnt captain obvious

yes, football is a team game isnt it

maybe you werent aware that Carrick was a regular starter in all of those campaigns? might have had something to do with them.....just maybe i guess

Ush1

kryogen wrote: »

well if it isnt captain obvious

yes, football is a team game isnt it

Exactly,so they got 18 odd million directly from him, what United got is questionable, captain observant.

starbelgrade

After the dissapointment of last night's game, I decided to play the second leg out on my nintendo, minus Rooney, as a kind of crystal ball prediction of what's going to happen...

Man Utd vs Bayern

It was a tight game, both teams very much defensive & not allowing any space in midfield, so very few chances were created.

It took a 67th minute header off a corner from Vidic to break the deadlock & seal the tie, though the last 23 minutes (plus 3 mins added time) was a very squeaky bum affair, which included 2 goal mouth clearances & an off the woodwork shot from Gomez.

I decided to skip the semi finals, as it was late & went straight to the final..

Man Utd v Barca.

United started with a surprise 4-1-1 formation which included Berbatov & took control for most of the first half. Barca came into it in the 2nd, but their attacking nature & weak defence was opened up by United on the counter, with a 60th minute goal by Berba & a 74th minute goal by Rooney.

After that, it was all Barca - United pinned back by wave after wave of attack from the Catalans. Eventually, it bore fruit with Eto knocking one in on the stroke of 84 minutes. But was it too late? No!!!! He scored again in the 92nd minute, bringing the game to extra time.

Tired & delapidated, United folded over the extra 30 minutes & lost 4-2 on the night, with Eto getting his hat trick & Messi bagging another.

I burned my nintendo shortly afterwards.

kryogen

Ush1 wrote: »

Exactly,so they got 18 odd million directly from him, what United got is questionable, captain observant.

no no, not questionable

we got a player who has contributed to the team winning 3 leagues in a row and a champions league title

he has given a good return on the investment, he has contributed in every seaseon he has been at the club, this has been his worst season in terms of personal performance, he hasnt actually been brutal since he joined the club

you fail at trying to have pedantic debates tbh, i miss CHD

Ush1

kryogen wrote: »

no no, not questionable

we got a player who has contributed to the team winning 3 leagues in a row and a champions league title

he has given a good return on the investment, he has contributed in every seaseon he has been at the club, this has been his worst season in terms of personal performance, he hasnt actually been brutal since he joined the club

you fail at trying to have pedantic debates tbh, i miss CHD

Yawn, all in your beleguered, biased opinion. How do you define what's a good return on 18 mill, dont be so silly. I know many people who disagree.

kryogen

Ush1 wrote: »

Yawn, all in your beleguered, biased opinion. How do you define what's a good return on 18 mill, dont be so silly. I know many people who disagree.

sure why would i care what your opinion is on the subject? i didnt ask it did i?

oh and other people agree with you!! :eek: shock horror!

bored of you again now

starbelgrade

Ush1 wrote: »

Yawn, all in your beleguered, biased opinion. How do you define what's a good return on 18 mill, dont be so silly. I know many people who disagree.

Many people also flocked to see Jedward play in the 02 tonight - that doesn't mean that they are any good.

Carrick's been an integral part of the United squad since he joined the club & has been an integral part of the successes that United have enjoyed in that time.

Yes, he can have bad days / spells, just as any player can - lots of United players get stick at some point - Nani, Vidic, Anderson, Park - all come to mind, but so what? When you've a manager like Ferguson who has without doubt, the best footballing brain in England by a long shot, you have to be fairly confident of your prowess to second guess the man.

me-skywalker

back to the Carrick debate I see. He's useless and United could definitely do with Hargreaves or investing in another top player for next season.

Ush1

So ferguson has never made a bad decision or mistake and is simply above criticism? Louis Walsh has the best pop brain in the uk, therefore jedward must be good?

starbelgrade

Ush1 wrote: »

So ferguson has never made a bad decision or mistake and is simply above criticism? Louis Walsh has the best pop brain in the uk, therefore jedward must be good?

Maybe I shouldn't have mixed my similes. I seemed to have confused you.

Ush1

So that part about 2nd guessing isn't to do with criticism? So you agree he can make bad decisions?

starbelgrade

Ush1 wrote: »

So that part about 2nd guessing isn't to do with criticism? So you agree he can make bad decisions?

Of course he makes bad decisions - Milne, Bosnich, Veron, Taibi, Djemba, Kleberson - but when you have a player like Carrick who is a regular team member of a team that has won 3 of three of the last premiership titles & a European Cup to boot - as one of their staples, can you really say that he's been a bad signing, overall?

If he's that bad, maybe we could have won all those trophies with a 3 man midfield, or a 10 man team?

TheDoc

Ush1 wrote: »

So ferguson has never made a bad decision or mistake and is simply above criticism? Louis Walsh has the best pop brain in the uk, therefore jedward must be good?

He rarely sticks with a useless player before offloading them....

Hes stook with carrick for a number of season now and values what he accomplishes in that centre circle.

Ush1

Maybe,how much were Fletcher and Scholes? To return to the original point,i doubt very much spurs are aggrieved as they have fairly similar and capable midfielders to him. If he was sold tommorow id be stunned if he went for 18 mill.

starbelgrade

Ush1 wrote: »

Maybe,how much were Fletcher and Scholes? To return to the original point,i doubt very much spurs are aggrieved as they have fairly similar and capable midfielders to him. If he was sold tommorow id be stunned if he went for 18 mill.

Hardly the point. You want to know the price of everything, but seem to know the value of nothing.

everdead.ie

starbelgrade wrote: »

After the dissapointment of last night's game, I decided to play the second leg out on my nintendo, minus Rooney, as a kind of crystal ball prediction of what's going to happen...

Man Utd vs Bayern

It was a tight game, both teams very much defensive & not allowing any space in midfield, so very few chances were created.

It took a 67th minute header off a corner from Vidic to break the deadlock & seal the tie, though the last 23 minutes (plus 3 mins added time) was a very squeaky bum affair, which included 2 goal mouth clearances & an off the woodwork shot from Gomez.

I decided to skip the semi finals, as it was late & went straight to the final..

Man Utd v Barca.

United started with a surprise 4-1-1 formation which included Berbatov & took control for most of the first half. Barca came into it in the 2nd, but their attacking nature & weak defence was opened up by United on the counter, with a 60th minute goal by Berba & a 74th minute goal by Rooney.

After that, it was all Barca - United pinned back by wave after wave of attack from the Catalans. Eventually, it bore fruit with Eto knocking one in on the stroke of 84 minutes. But was it too late? No!!!! He scored again in the 92nd minute, bringing the game to extra time.

Tired & delapidated, United folded over the extra 30 minutes & lost 4-2 on the night, with Eto getting his hat trick & Messi bagging another.

I burned my nintendo shortly afterwards.

Ya but Eto's gone to inter so you don't have to worry about him

Ush1

No i think youll find its exactly the point. Original post, a spurs fan happy with the money they got for him.

starbelgrade

Ush1 wrote: »

No i think youll find its exactly the point. Original post, a spurs fan happy with the money they got for him.

Look, if your happy with the possiblity of a 4th place finish, a chance at the Champions League for the first time ever, and the warmth & happiness that the off-loading of an £18 million "donkey" makes in your heart, then who am I to argue?

We're both happy out, so can we leave it at that, or shall I leave you to win the one legged man arse kicking contest?