DeValera Megathread

brianthebard

A lot of anger and opinions relating to DeValera on these boards. Thought a thread specifically on that topic would be a good idea, and might keep others on topic.

Personally I feel the way most of us are presented with the first 20-30 years of this state is very two dimensional, a long line of progressive events with little analysis (eg Cumann na Gaedhael created the Guards, then they created a currency, then they built a dam[...] Then Dev changed the GG, then he had an economic war, then he made a constitution, etc, etc). This holds true imo at both 2nd and 3rd level studies by and large. Its only when you start to look at the subtleties of the period that you start to get a sense of the material difficulties and movements within the state.

For instance, I didn't know until this week that FF had tried to use popular referendum to remove the King from the Irish Constitution, but this was blocked by CnaG. Obviously if FF had succeeded they could've entered parliament without ever taking the oath, as it turned out they were forced to. I have seen many however point to this change in policy as a reason to dismiss or hate DeValera, since it seemed to make the reasons for the civil war even more pointless. Clearly the reality as always was more complex.


So I've harped on enough hopefully this will make sense to people and we can get a discussion going.

Judgement Day

Dev may have had some good qualities but what about his 'creative accounting' and personal fiefdom at the Irish Press which, as I understand it, was established with donations for FF but which his family ended up owning.

Also he was genetically responsible, in part, for producing two of the most useless politicians to ever enter the Dail, namely Sile De Valera and Eamonn O'Cuiv. My two cents worth.

MarchDub

brianthebard wrote: »

A lot of anger and opinions relating to DeValera on these boards. Thought a thread specifically on that topic would be a good idea, and might keep others on topic.

Personally I feel the way most of us are presented with the first 20-30 years of this state is very two dimensional, a long line of progressive events with little analysis (eg Cumann na Gaedhael created the Guards, then they created a currency, then they built a dam[...] Then Dev changed the GG, then he had an economic war, then he made a constitution, etc, etc). This holds true imo at both 2nd and 3rd level studies by and large. Its only when you start to look at the subtleties of the period that you start to get a sense of the material difficulties and movements within the state.

For instance, I didn't know until this week that FF had tried to use popular referendum to remove the King from the Irish Constitution, but this was blocked by CnaG. Obviously if FF had succeeded they could've entered parliament without ever taking the oath, as it turned out they were forced to. I have seen many however point to this change in policy as a reason to dismiss or hate DeValera, since it seemed to make the reasons for the civil war even more pointless. Clearly the reality as always was more complex.


.

Great thread. I couldn't agree more with this part that I have highlighted - There is a vast amount of popular myth created around De Valera and his time and most of it is not based on the actual historical record. The contemporary secondary school books that I have come across are woeful. Someone suggested that much popular opinion on Dev is based on the slant in the Michael Collins movie where Dev is depicted the bête noire of the tragedy. Maybe. But an ill informed press also plays into the myth IMO. On another forum during a discussion about a journalist who plays with historical facts was challenged the replies came in that journalists do not have to know about history - well, quite a lot of people read these journalists and think they are reading actual facts.

For instance, I keep reading on boards statements that Dev "sold us to the Catholic Church" as if the Church had no standing or no power prior to the reference to them in the 1937 Constitution - as if their power came only and solely from De Valera. Most of the "egregious" laws that people point to were established prior to Dev's period and prior to the Constitution. And IMO their part in the downfall of Parnell was probably the lowest point in modern Irish history.

Dev by the way, probably played more of a game with the Catholic Church than anything else. He knew the new state had to reply on them for a cheap to free educational system - revenues were low - but on the other hand he refused to give the Catholic Church the constitutional position of an established church, which would have meant official state funding.

SlabMurphy

I heard that when Douglas Hyde died and the funeral was been held in Christchurch Dev the snake oil salesman stood outside the church as he didn't want to offend the Catholic bishops by attending a Protestant service.
Also, didn't Dev blot his copybook by offering condolences to the German ambassador on Hitler's death ( Ok, I know that's international protocol but surely he could have left it out ofr once ).

brianthebard

I don't mean to be rude but can we please keep this thread away from 'I heard' and 'I was told'...the point is to actually examine the historical facts, not repeat old anecdotes and put downs.

MarchDub

Well to address this issue anyway - this is the problem with half truths and partial truths and out of context references. The whole truth is that De Valera was certainly not alone in this at the funeral service for Douglas Hyde. All Catholics, both members of the government and the public stood outside of St Patrick's cathedral including the then President of Ireland Sean T O'Kelly and the cabinet. Catholics were restricted under Canon Law from attending a Protestant service and it was accepted protocol to stand outside in silence and respect. Protestants did the same outside of Catholic churches for funerals and weddings. However it may seem to us today - it was not considered to be extraordinary or disrespectful behaviour back in 1949. It was the norm for the day.

To put this further in perspective in 1994 Queen Elizabeth II became the first British Monarch to attend a Catholic service since the 17th Century.

who the fug

brianthebard wrote: »

For instance, I didn't know until this week that FF had tried to use popular referendum to remove the King from the Irish Constitution, but this was blocked by CnaG. Obviously if FF had succeeded they could've entered parliament without ever taking the oath, as it turned out they were forced to. I have seen many however point to this change in policy as a reason to dismiss or hate DeValera, since it seemed to make the reasons for the civil war even more pointless. Clearly the reality as always was more complex.

.

Sorry do you have a link to more of this story as I have never heard that one before.


Never been anti Dev, just think he should have gone to the Park, when he lost in 1948, instead of presiding over most of that dreadful decade .


Respect him for keeping us out the WW2 because I believe we would have decended back into the mire of the civil war if we had not


In summary the problem with Dev was he did not die a young man

brianthebard

who the fug wrote: »

Sorry do you have a link to more of this story as I have never heard that one before.

Sorry but it was just something a friend doing a history postgrad on that period told me. I imagine he found this out from a primary source he was using, since it doesn't seem to be something often mentioned in secondary works.

MarchDub

who the fug wrote: »

Sorry do you have a link to more of this story as I have never heard that one before.

brianthebard wrote: »

Sorry but it was just something a friend doing a history postgrad on that period told me. I imagine he found this out from a primary source he was using, since it doesn't seem to be something often mentioned in secondary works.

I can't put my hands on the original source but from memory I recall reading that Fianna Fail attempted to put in a plea in 1926 to the courts that the Oath to the British Monarch was unconstitutional/in violation of the 1919 Dail Declaration of Independence. CnaG blocked this somehow. Maybe someone with access to court records could confirm or elaborate on this?

It was after the court procedure was blocked that Dev and others in FF decided that the only way forward was to take the oath - Dev declared it an "empty formula" and entered the Dail. One of his first acts as Taoiseach in 1932 was to abolish the Oath.

brianthebard

MarchDub wrote: »

It was after the court procedure was blocked that Dev and others in FF decided that the only way forward was to take the oath - Dev declared it an "empty formula" and entered the Dail. One of his first acts as Taoiseach in 1932 was to abolish the Oath.

Weren't FF also under pressure from a new law banning people from running for parliament again if they refused to take their seats?

edit; those records are probably here if you know what you're looking for; http://www.nationalarchives.ie/search/index.php

MarchDub

brianthebard wrote: »

Weren't FF also under pressure from a new law banning people from running for parliament again if they refused to take their seats?

Yes, after the assassination of Kevin O'Higgins there was an law enacted by CnaG that candidates must pledge to take their seats or they would be ineligible to run for the Dail. This also tipped the scales in the direction pushing FF into entering the Dail - or political nothingness.

Edit - Thanks for the link. I have used it previously but I do get lost in it though, I must say. I suppose the court records are somewhere there.

walrusgumble

Judgement Day wrote: »

Dev may have had some good qualities but what about his 'creative accounting' and personal fiefdom at the Irish Press which, as I understand it, was established with donations for FF but which his family ended up owning.

Also he was genetically responsible, in part, for producing two of the most useless politicians to ever enter the Dail, namely Sile De Valera and Eamonn O'Cuiv. My two cents worth.

the most useless polticans? ya come on there were more than them that would pick that award. yeah though, it is a bit disappointing considering, as Gareth Fitz would say, their "poltical predigree". Sile gave Jack Lynch some headaches with her republican reterioc in the late 1970's


As of right now, I am just after hearing Ned O'Keefe giving a bashing to foreigners and the british national who is head of the financial regulator and how we don't want them telling us what to do. oh dear. still we don't mind taking their eu lollie. collins and pearse got a mention. sounded terrible

walrusgumble

MarchDub wrote: »

Great thread. I couldn't agree more with this part that I have highlighted - There is a vast amount of popular myth created around De Valera and his time and most of it is not based on the actual historical record. The contemporary secondary school books that I have come across are woeful. Someone suggested that much popular opinion on Dev is based on the slant in the Michael Collins movie where Dev is depicted the bête noire of the tragedy. Maybe. But an ill informed press also plays into the myth IMO. On another forum during a discussion about a journalist who plays with historical facts was challenged the replies came in that journalists do not have to know about history - well, quite a lot of people read these journalists and think they are reading actual facts.

For instance, I keep reading on boards statements that Dev "sold us to the Catholic Church" as if the Church had no standing or no power prior to the reference to them in the 1937 Constitution - as if their power came only and solely from De Valera. Most of the "egregious" laws that people point to were established prior to Dev's period and prior to the Constitution. And IMO their part in the downfall of Parnell was probably the lowest point in modern Irish history.

Dev by the way, probably played more of a game with the Catholic Church than anything else. He knew the new state had to reply on them for a cheap to free educational system - revenues were low - but on the other hand he refused to give the Catholic Church the constitutional position of an established church, which would have meant official state funding.

cumann na ngaedheal like many other Irish man and woman followed the church strongly. look at the Eucharist Congress. Were CnG as an opposition party walk way? Eoin O'Duffy as the Chief Guard was in his pomp. Even in later years, the radical Sean MacBride was said to Archbishop McQuid not to worry about any red scares.

Dev did have a good idea of what the people believed in. Sure he HAD to get the church (and people) on his side. It was not long after entering dail, when CnG and the Church belted out how the finna failers were a bunch of reds. Considering what was going on in other catholic dominated countries at the time, our consitution was no where near as bad, sure according to fearghall mcgarry on Eoin O'Duffy, he liked the idea of corporalism. Whether we liked it or not, the church, to the eyes of most people WAS the one true church, it did hold a special part of people's lives. One must remember, that the judges of this time (1940-1959 - thankfully, the judges like O'Dailigh became more infuence by america, where they trained) where heavily influenced by the church when giving their judgements. (often to the determent to the state) Not all of these lads were ffers.

People often have a go at dev, for retarded reasons because he had American citizenship, as if he had a choice of the place of his birth. Couldn't he have gone back and lived their as a maths teacher and enjoyed life (and dodge the draft he he ) I dare anyone to come out with such dredge to people like Thomas Clarke (born in Isle of Wight and an American Citizen!), James Connolly (Born in Scotland) or even, er, Erskine Childers Snr. Was Liam Mellows born in Ireland?

brianthebard

According to Wiki he was born in England.

walrusgumble

brianthebard wrote: »

According to Wiki he was born in England.

who clarke? ye isle of wight, english? His dad was a protestant who fought for britian in the colonies. Clarke himself fled/immigrated to the us and naturalised in 1905ish

or Mellows? Sorry confused.Late and in stupid mode

brianthebard

Mellows. Its a good point on the citizenship/birthplace issue, its another thing that Dev gets stick about but given the amount of emigration and also the amount of people involved in the 1916 rising that were either born outside the country, left the country, or had foreign parents, its just another strawman argument that gets tossed at Dev but not others.

who the fug

Ah now I have a go at the lot in them, including the palstic paddy himself Paddy Pearse

SlabMurphy

who the fug wrote: »

Ah now I have a go at the lot in them, including the palstic paddy himself Paddy Pearse

It's not unusual that Ireland has had important figures in it's history foreign born, every country has them. Quite a few monarchs of Britain were foreign born like King William of Orange, King George as was Prime Minister Bonar Law etc. And what part of the north was the unionists leader Carson from - Dublin of course .

trapsagenius

Good posts by MarchDub.

I've outlined by position on Dev on many different threads-I think he was a good man whose successes far outweighed his failures.I think in time,in fact it is happening already with the likes of Ferriter, historians are fairly judging Dev and are moving away from the simplistic character assassination that TP Coogan put forward.Hopefully, in time, the phrase "De Valera's Ireland" will no longer carry negative connotations.

who the fug

SlabMurphy wrote: »

Quite a few monarchs of Britain were foreign born like King William of Orange, King George as was Prime Minister Bonar Law etc.

Am well aware of the above, and love pointing out to my mates when they go OTT BNP that they have never had an english family on the throne since 1066

CDfm

I have often wondered if Devs name alone gave him a bit of mystery as an unknown quantity.

On foreign anomalies Field Marshall Wilson who was assasainated after the Treaty was signed was born in Longford and his killers Dunne and O'Sullivan in London.

http://www.executedtoday.com/category/where/ireland/

MarchDub

The RTE ten part radio series "Judging Dev" is still available on line. It was originally broadcast late in 2007. Here is the link.
The presenter is Diarmaid Ferriter.

http://www.rte.ie/radio/judgingdev/listen.html

Jim2007

MarchDub wrote: »

The RTE ten part radio series "Judging Dev" is still available on line. It was originally broadcast late in 2007. Here is the link.
The presenter is Diarmaid Ferriter.

http://www.rte.ie/radio/judgingdev/listen.html

I recently found these podcasts and one of the things that really struck me was the point made one of the speakers on how Ireland remained a democracy through the 30s, 40s and into the 50s when you consider what was going on in Portugal, Spain, Italy and Germany.

When you think about it is great credit to the people on both sides, that despite all the arguments and differences that they all stuck to the democratic process when it could have so easily gone the other way.

Jim.

CDfm

Concidering we are on the periphery of europe with precious little natural resourses I imagine it is not that surprising.

Don't forget we had a huge amount of emigration. And there was a tradition of freedom and democracy ingrained into generations.

The other aspect is that if a threat had emerged the danger was that one side or the other would have sought British support which would have been fairly instantaneous given the Treaty Ports up until 1939.

So I imagine the external threat gave internal cohesion.Nothing brings people together like an identifyable enemy.

trapsagenius

CDfm wrote: »

Concidering we are on the periphery of europe with precious little natural resourses I imagine it is not that surprising.

Well what were Portugal, if not on the periphery of Europe?They established a dictatorship, didn't they??

Consolidating democracy in Ireland was an achievement that FF contributed to, but in fairness, most of the credit has to go to W.T Cosgrave and cumann na nGaedhal for this.

CDfm wrote: »

Don't forget we had a huge amount of emigration.

And don't forget that industrial employment increased under Dev in the 30s, an even bigger achievement when you consider that there was a global economic downturn then.

CDfm wrote: »

And there was a tradition of freedom and democracy ingrained into generations.

Tradition of freedom??:eek:

You are aware of what the Brits did to us??

CDfm wrote: »

The other aspect is that if a threat had emerged the danger was that one side or the other would have sought British support which would have been fairly instantaneous given the Treaty Ports up until 1939.

So I imagine the external threat gave internal cohesion.Nothing brings people together like an identifyable enemy.

I still think guiding Ireland through WW2, in the face of such pressure from the British, and later the Americans, and also in such an unstable time globally when the whole world seemed on the brink, was one of Dev's finest achievements.

CDfm

trapsagenius wrote: »

Well what were Portugal, if not on the periphery of Europe?They established a dictatorship, didn't they??

they had a monarchy before that

Consolidating democracy in Ireland was an achievement that FF contributed to, but in fairness, most of the credit has to go to W.T Cosgrave and cumann na nGaedhal for this.

I agree

And don't forget that industrial employment increased under Dev in the 30s, an even bigger achievement when you consider that there was a global economic downturn then.

Fords in Cork etc was the descendant of an emigrant accessing european markets

Tradition of freedom??:eek:

You are aware of what the Brits did to us??

I meant domestically it had been an aspiration and it would be difficult to see what tradition/cultural belief it could have latched on to.

Heil O'Duffy was never that catchy.

I still think guiding Ireland through WW2, in the face of such pressure from the British, and later the Americans, and also in such an unstable time globally when the whole world seemed on the brink, was one of Dev's finest achievements.

It was actually but I heard from my grandfather how he and other War of Independence Veterans had gone to various polling stations around west cork in the 1932 electiion.

So you had internal threats and external threats

Jim2007

trapsagenius wrote: »

Tradition of freedom??:eek:

You are aware of what the Brits did to us??

Interestingly enough when commenting on the 1937 Constitution, Dev does make the comment that we were far to schooled in the British Constitutional system to go for an American style administration!

Jim

trapsagenius

CDfm wrote: »

they had a monarchy before that

You got me on this point, I have to admit!

CDfm wrote: »

I meant domestically it had been an aspiration and it would be difficult to see what tradition/cultural belief it could have latched on to.

Heil O'Duffy was never that catchy.

I still Dev did a good job putting down the likes of Duffy and his ilk.I remember reading once that Duffy didn't fear the use odf the word fascist or dictator.We're lucky that the blueshirts didn't a charismatic, non-bungling leader in Ireland, or I think they could have developed into a big threat.

Jim2007 wrote: »

Interestingly enough when commenting on the 1937 Constitution, Dev does make the comment that we were far to schooled in the British Constitutional system to go for an American style administration!

Jim

I'm not contesting that there wasn't democracy in Ireland( if you look back at my previous post, I didn't contest it there either).I just don't think there was a tradition of freedom under the Brits, if that makes any sense.I would view them as two fairly separate things (in this context).

jonniebgood1

Just reading this article http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/haunted-by-ghost-of-iras-bloody-legacy-1910361.html

I am interested in particular in the extract that says

de Valera let it be known through Maurice Moynihan in the 1980s that he felt deep shame in his old age when confronted with some of his speeches from the 1918-22 period, especially his speeches denouncing the RIC as a force of traitors, speeches which he knew provoked the sorts of outrages which destroyed Hazel's family.

These regrets can be found in Moynihan's editorial notes in his great book, Speeches and Statements by Eamon de Valera.

I don't have the editorial from this book- does anyone know more about this in relation to Dev and the RIC?
And what exactly happened to John Albert Chinnery?
Or any other views on the article are open for discussion.

MarchDub

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

I am interested in particular in the extract that says

Quote:
de Valera let it be known through Maurice Moynihan in the 1980s that he felt deep shame in his old age when confronted with some of his speeches from the 1918-22 period, especially his speeches denouncing the RIC as a force of traitors, speeches which he knew provoked the sorts of outrages which destroyed Hazel's family.

These regrets can be found in Moynihan's editorial notes in his great book, Speeches and Statements by Eamon de Valera.


I don't have the editorial from this book- does anyone know more about this in relation to Dev and the RIC?
And what exactly happened to John Albert Chinnery?
Or any other views on the article are open for discussion.

I'd be curious too! Considering that de Valera died in 1975 it was quite a feat for him to be letting his feelings be known in the 1980s - ??

ejmaztec

http://www.studiesirishreview.ie/j/page435

Moynihan took early retirement to become Governor of the Central Bank in 1961, a position he held until 1969. He spent the following decade working on two books: Currency and Central Banking in Ireland 1922-60, published in 1975; and Speeches and Statements by Eamon de Valera 1917-73, published in 1980. He maintained an interest in politics until almost the end and was heard to say forthrightly of the Supreme Court judgment on cabinet confidentiality that it was “all nonsense”.