MON

leninbenjamin

Melion wrote: »

Finally, another person has noticed O'Neill's terrible football!!!

Leicester...Lump it to Heskey and hope for the best
Celtic...Lump it to Sutton or Hartson and hope for the best
Villa...Lump it to Carew or Heskey and hope for the best

He will never get a big club job for the above reason.

I like MON but this is damn true. He adds organisation and tactical consistency, but he lacks imagination and the capacity to take risks. He's taken Villa as far as he can imo.

wynters

Helix wrote: »

i called it about 4 years ago

What a smug, w a nky comment that is....

Chardee MacDennis

Melion wrote: »

Finally, another person has noticed O'Neill's terrible football!!!

Leicester...Lump it to Heskey and hope for the best
Celtic...Lump it to Sutton or Hartson and hope for the best
Villa...Lump it to Carew or Heskey and hope for the best

He will never get a big club job for the above reason.

i'm actually gonna be really worried if Rafa goes this sumer and MON is available...

Mr Alan

if that happened, i would genuinely cry like a baby. don't think there's any chance though, if O'Neill can't work wit wat seems like one of the best owners in the league, not sure how he'd fancy working wit our pair of jokers.

LuckyLloyd

Yeah, it would be a terrible blow to be stuck with him as our next manager.

Savman

Helix wrote: »

nah, more the end of the beginning

You been watching the Matrix again bud?

LuckyLloyd

Savman wrote: »

You been watching the Matrix again bud?

His point is very simple:

The period under O'Neill has seen a big shift in terms of the running of Aston Villa. The club now has a hugely experienced and highly competent owner, is being well run at board level for the first time in years, and has the financial might to compete well in the transfer market. On the pitch, the club has got to a position where it is one of the best non superpower English clubs.

But to become a superpower is going to be extremely challenging, and will probably require the jettisoning of a manager who's MO is getting somewhat limited squads to punch above their weight through a very rigid style that features workrate and directness at the expense of creativity. And instead bring in a manager who has an understanding of a wider football landscape, and can attract a different type of footballer, and - most crucially - can better maintain a consistent challenge on many fronts throughout a long season.

It's just better to say all that in seven words.

karma_

I would have him at City in a heartbeat.

Eirebear

Melion wrote: »

Finally, another person has noticed O'Neill's terrible football!!!

Leicester...Lump it to Heskey and hope for the best -Promotion and 2 League Cups
Celtic...Lump it to Sutton or Hartson and hope for the best 3 League Titles, 3 Scottish Cups, 1 league Cup. Uefa Cup Final
Villa...Lump it to Carew or Heskey and hope for the best Jury still out?

He will never get a big club job for the above reason.

Its hard to argue with his results in all honesty...

peabutler

O' Neill is the right man for Villa at the moment. Not many out there who could do a better job than he is doing right now. If MON goes who will replace him Pulis? Hughes? Southgate?

5ForKeeps

http://timesonline.typepad.com/thegame/2010/03/is-martin-oneill-all-he-is-cracked-up-to-be.html -- the myth is exposed!!!!

invinciblePRSTV

5ForKeeps wrote: »

http://timesonline.typepad.com/thegame/2010/03/is-martin-oneill-all-he-is-cracked-up-to-be.html -- the myth is exposed!!!!

To be fair Marcotti has had it in for MON and the Villa generally since the Barry saga, if he wasn't such a humourless saddo with a liverpool hard on then perhaps i'd take his recycled gossip and opinion masquerading as journalism more seriously.

Savman

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

To be fair Marcotti has had it in for MON and the Villa generally since the Barry saga, if he wasn't such a humourless saddo with a liverpool hard on then perhaps i'd take his recycled gossip and opinion masquerading as journalism more seriously.

Can't argue against logic tho, to be fair. He's done his homework.

leninbenjamin

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

To be fair Marcotti has had it in for MON and the Villa generally since the Barry saga, if he wasn't such a humourless saddo with a liverpool hard on then perhaps i'd take his recycled gossip and opinion masquerading as journalism more seriously.

That's a very fair article from Marcotti tbh. Nothing original mind, his heavy spending, poor scouting and lack of imagination are regularly discussed elsewhere, but more often than not are down played in favour of his Britishness when it comes to these debates.

JPA

MON is Irish.

Neil3030

5ForKeeps wrote: »

http://timesonline.typepad.com/thegame/2010/03/is-martin-oneill-all-he-is-cracked-up-to-be.html -- the myth is exposed!!!!

Pffft... he's not fit to warm his hands on the steam from Jimbo Richardson's piss that fella.

wynters

He's a fat mess. 'Seen him on Setanta Sports not so long ago challenging the validity of a goal based on OLD offside rules...

What a dummy.

Mr Alan

good journalist. and the article is spot on.

CSF

Stupid article, while there are no lies in there, and I do agree on the lack of signing players outside the obvious (where they're a hell of alot cheaper), but aside from that, pure tripe.

Basically he has stated a number of cutting facts, but unfortunately without any context.


Thomas Sørensen
Stuart Taylor
Gareth Barry
Wilfred Bouma
Gary Cahill
Ulises De La Cruz
Mark Delaney
Aaron Hughes
Martin Laursen
Olof Mellberg
Jay Lloyd Samuel
Eirik Bakke
Patrik Berger
Steve Davis
Eric Djemba Djemba
Lee Hendrie
Gavin McCann
James Milner
Liam Ridgewell
Peter Whittingham
Juan Pablo Angel
Milan Baros
Luke Moore
Kevin Phillips

Villa's squad when O'Neill arrived. How many of them were at a top 10 Premiership standard even a season after O'Neill arrived? Bear in mind Milner had finished his loan by the time MON arrived. O'Neill had to build from scratch pretty much while getting results, and 2 6th place finishes with 2 Champions League challenges in a row is just that. Yeah the team have capitulated at the end of every single season, but falling to 6th isn't much of a capitulation for a team like Villa.

He may be one of the most infuriating man in the world in regard to his transfer dealings, and I've definitely doubted him in the past, but he has always come good. Villa aren't expected to compete with the Liverpools, Arsenals and now Man Citys. You can quote net transfer spends until the cows come home, but this really intelligent journalist has yet again left out context. These teams will spend 100 grand a week on wages, Villa can only afford to spend about half of that.

Its the same routine really. Villa do great upto March, everyone is full of praise for Martin O'Neill, then after that he is muck again, but the final league positions are still always damn impressive, and the cup runs this season have been mighty fine too.

invinciblePRSTV

leninbenjamin wrote: »

That's a very fair article from Marcotti tbh. Nothing original mind, his heavy spending, poor scouting and lack of imagination are regularly discussed elsewhere, but more often than not are down played in favour of his Britishness when it comes to these debates.

It isn't really, sure he makes some obvious points a dog could make about Martin O' Neills Aston Villa and how they play, but many of his points are either lazy conjecture (like comparisons with Villa managers from a previous era and other managers like Moyes & Wenger) pointless (doesn't like foreigner players), wrong (bought 3 defenders in 'final hours' of the window), points twisted to suit an argument (MON didn't give Agbonlahor his debut but has been primarliy responsible for his emergence), out of context or are just speculative in their nature.

As i said Marcotti's article is but a rehash of what can be found on message boards across the Villa web, when the Times pay wall goes up thankfully crud like this which passes for journalism will disappear forever. In short Marcotti should stick to reporting on his beloved Pool, they respect his pseudo football intellectual schtick more over there i'd say.

Neil3030

English players hold/increase their value proportionally more than foreign players. A balanced article would have not only mentioned this fact, but would have analysed MON's history of player resale, and whether or not how his average profit/loss compares to other managers as a consequence of his buying policy.

Mr Alan

where is this 'marcotti is a liverpool fan' thing coming from? he's not.

invinciblePRSTV

Mr Alan wrote: »

where is this 'marcotti is a liverpool fan' thing coming from? he's not.

Oops i'm mixing up my Spanish PL journalists, think its Balague who is the Pool fan. Either way Marcotti is still dull as dishwasher and as about as insightful.

Mr Alan

Marcotti is Italian, not Spanish, and he's an excellent journalist. This is about the only negative article i can recall ever being written about O'Neill, it raises valid mild criticisms about him and some Villa fans try and rubbish it. Nonsense.

Mr Alan

Neil3030 wrote: »

English players hold/increase their value proportionally more than foreign players. A balanced article would have not only mentioned this fact, but would have analysed MON's history of player resale, and whether or not how his average profit/loss compares to other managers as a consequence of his buying policy.

In fairness, it talks about his net spend since he's been at Villa. The article could have been a lot more sensationalist if it used gross figures, that is the approach that a lot of gutter press journalists have taken when discussing other managers transfer history. Marcotti doesn't slate MON, in fact he says he's doing ok, but doing about as well as the resources at his disposal, not over achieving massively like people often act like.

flahavaj

I found that article to be very reasonable, makes some perfectly valid points, without being a mindless hatchet job on O' Neill.

Don't really see what the problem is tbh?

Mr Alan

i think Villa fans are a bit too used used to the media doing nothing other than tickling their managers balls occassionally, a bit of valid criticism seems to have taken them by surprise. i'm sure o'neills solicitors are looking into a lawsuit as we speak.

MementoMori

I think the article was fairly balanced.

I don't think MON is good enough to establish Villa as a top four club (not just get into the top four once, but establish them as persistent force there)
and I think that's the problem.

MON has generally gotten a pretty soft enough treatment in the press and this is one of the few articles I've come accross critical of him in the main stream press.

invinciblePRSTV

Mr Alan wrote: »

Marcotti is Italian, not Spanish, and he's an excellent journalist. This is about the only negative article i can recall ever being written about O'Neill, it raises valid mild criticisms about him and some Villa fans try and rubbish it. Nonsense.

Marcotti is a crap journo, his articles and podcasts are top 4 fawning ****e. It certainly isn't the first article i've read thats critical of MON and i rubbish some of his sillier points.

Mr Alan wrote: »

i think Villa fans are a bit too used used to the media doing nothing other than tickling their managers balls occassionally, a bit of valid criticism seems to have taken them by surprise. i'm sure o'neills solicitors are looking into a lawsuit as we speak.

Lol sounds like someone has a bit of a dislike of MON, as bad as he can be he still called it right when he called out Pools atrocious underhanded behaviour during the GB thing a few years ago, some just can't help hating MON because of that seemingly...

Neil3030

Mr Alan wrote: »

In fairness, it talks about his net spend since he's been at Villa. The article could have been a lot more sensationalist if it used gross figures, that is the approach that a lot of gutter press journalists have taken when discussing other managers transfer history. Marcotti doesn't slate MON, in fact he says he's doing ok, but doing about as well as the resources at his disposal, not over achieving massively like people often act like.

No no, that's fair enough I can appreciate that.

I was requesting an analysis of his average profit/loss on players within the context of his "buy English" policy and whether it stands up, economically.

Mr Alan

don't particularly like o'neill, no doubt about it. however, i think he is a decent manager, just never understood the fawning over him in the press permanently. glad to see someone with the balls to go against the grain and tell it like it is.

invinciblePRSTV

Dunno if there really has been fawning in the press over MON, not that i've noticed anyway, you and i must read different papers Mr. Alan!.

mirwillbeback

Mr Alan wrote: »

Marcotti is Italian, not Spanish, and he's an excellent journalist. This is about the only negative article i can recall ever being written about O'Neill, it raises valid mild criticisms about him and some Villa fans try and rubbish it. Nonsense.

i posted last year about his failings and you slated me - in my post i said that his mistakes would repeat themselves. have no problem with you changing your mind, but at least have the decency to acknowledge it

Mr Alan

mirwillbeback wrote: »

i posted last year about his failings and you slated me - in my post i said that his mistakes would repeat themselves. have no problem with you changing your mind, but at least have the decency to acknowledge it

Ya wat?! I defended O'Neill?! I may have said that he shouldn't be sacked (i still don't think he should be), but are ya sure ya aren't confusing me wit someone else?

mirwillbeback

Mr Alan wrote: »

Ya wat?! I defended O'Neill?! I may have said that he shouldn't be sacked (i still don't think he should be), but are ya sure ya aren't confusing me wit someone else?

ya did indeed

will dig it out for PROOF - i did think he should go last year though so maybe that's what you were disagreeing with

as i said last year, he has done a good job at villa, with a decent financial backing, but he will never kick us on

raven136

Most fan seem to think Marcotti is one of the better and more insightful columnists out there.Listen to him destroy Ken Early most weeks on off the ball.
I believe he is an Inter fan,could be wrong

Mr Alan

would tend to agree wit you, but he deserved this season to try and crack into the top 4, also wouldn't think getting rid is a good idea unless you can get a replacement who is a marked improvement.

flahavaj

In many ways, Benitez and O' Neill's situations are similar, in that while no one could argue that thay have their flaws (infuriatingly so at times) you have to ask the question, who could their clubs, with their current resources and place in the pecking order, get that would do a better job for them?

Mr Alan

o'neill is like a less talented version of rafa. who also doesn't have the excuse of investment totally drying up for the last 2 years (and has never won a really serious trophy either)

noodler

Mr Alan wrote: »

In fairness, it talks about his net spend since he's been at Villa. The article could have been a lot more sensationalist if it used gross figures, that is the approach that a lot of gutter press journalists have taken when discussing other managers transfer history. Marcotti doesn't slate MON, in fact he says he's doing ok, but doing about as well as the resources at his disposal, not over achieving massively like people often act like.

Mr Alan wrote: »

i think Villa fans are a bit too used used to the media doing nothing other than tickling their managers balls occassionally, a bit of valid criticism seems to have taken them by surprise. i'm sure o'neills solicitors are looking into a lawsuit as we speak.

Jesus Christ.

It isn't his fault Rafa has no money.

MementoMori

flahavaj wrote: »

In many ways, Benitez and O' Neill's situations are similar, in that while no one could argue that thay have their flaws (infuriatingly so at times) you have to ask the question, who could their clubs, with their current resources and place in the pecking order, get that would do a better job for them?

Hughes for MON at Villa?

Wouldn't be quite City level resources but would be a hell of a lot more than at Blackburn. Struggling to think of realistic options to be honest.

Mr Alan

noodler wrote: »

Jesus Christ.

It isn't his fault Rafa has no money.

Thankfully i didn't say it was

invinciblePRSTV

direct all spanish waiter related discussion here please ladies

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055637824&page=1541

As for potential MON successors, Sparky wouldn't be the worst but my gut feeling is that Lerner might go for something more exotic.

flahavaj

MementoMori wrote: »

Hughes for MON at Villa?

Wouldn't be quite City level resources but would be a hell of a lot more than at Blackburn. Struggling to think of realistic options to be honest.

Its highly debateable would Hughes do anything better than Top 7 with Villa and go on some very good cup runs, which is pretty much what O' Neill has done.

Point is while I have serious issues with many aspects of O' Neill's management and his perceived reputation amongst football people and the media, hes still the best Villa can hope for at the moment.

Neil3030

Mr Alan wrote: »

o'neill is like a less talented version of rafa. who also doesn't have the excuse of investment totally drying up for the last 2 years (and has never won a really serious trophy either)

IBTL

Bounty Hunter

One thing a team like Everton, Spurs, Villa need if they ever hopr to break the top 4 is stability and although i dont know if MON will bre ak the top four I think Villa have progressed massively under him and Villa will not risk that stablity. MON at the very minimum will be in charge at VP until the Summer but id still expect him to be Aston Villa manager at the start of next season

invinciblePRSTV

flahavaj wrote: »

hes still the best Villa can hope for at the moment.

Not really. lets be realistic here for a moment, the Villa job comes with cash, a decent first team and an understanding/patient wealthy owner. Compare that to the financial disaster that is most of the clubs in the top half of the PL currently and i think we'll be ok when it comes to attracting managerial talent.

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

One thing a team like Everton, Spurs, Villa need if they ever hopr to break the top 4 is stability and although i dont know if MON will bre ak the top four I think Villa have progressed massively under him and Villa will not risk that stablity. MON at the very minimum will be in charge at VP until the Summer but id still expect him to be Aston Villa manager at the start of next season

Indeed a salient point. The Martin Jol fiasco set Spurs back 2 years from which they only appear to be recovering now. I imagine bar a complete collapse between now and the end of the season (which is a possibility) then he'll be round next year.

MementoMori

Bounty Hunter wrote: »

One thing a team like Everton, Spurs, Villa need if they ever hopr to break the top 4 is stability and although i dont know if MON will bre ak the top four I think Villa have progressed massively under him and Villa will not risk that stablity. MON at the very minimum will be in charge at VP until the Summer but id still expect him to be Aston Villa manager at the start of next season

Is stability all that important. I'm not all that convinced.

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Not really. lets be realistic here for a moment, the Villa job comes with cash, a decent first team and an understanding/patient wealthy owner. Compare that to the financial disaster that is most of the clubs in the top half of the PL currently and i think we'll be ok when it comes to attracting managerial talent.

I'd agree with this a fair bit. Mourinho for Villa?;)

flahavaj

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Not really. lets be realistic here for a moment, the Villa job comes with cash, a decent first team and an understanding/patient wealthy owner. Compare that to the financial disaster that is most of the clubs in the top half of the PL currently and i think we'll be ok when it comes to attracting managerial talent.

Start naming names.

Even with all the attractive factors you've mentioned there teere's still the hard cold fact that for Villa its a masssively difficult job to rise above their true place in the pecking order which is still behind the old Big 4 IMO as well as Spurs and now City with their financial might. Who better than O' Neill will want to manage the 7th best team in England?

invinciblePRSTV

flahavaj wrote: »

Start naming names.

dunno haven't though about it.

flahavaj wrote: »

Even with all the attractive factors you've mentioned there teere's still the hard cold fact that for Villa its a masssively difficult job to rise above their true place in the pecking order which is still behind the old Big 4 IMO as well as Spurs and now City with their financial might. Who better than O' Neill will want to manage the 7th best team in England?

Your 'hard cold fact' belies your youthful naivety i'd say. I remember a time when Chelsea were also rans, Arsenal were ****e under Rioch, Pool were mid table cloggers, Spurs were going down and Villa were title contenders.

My point being is that the imaginary pecking order/hierarchy of clubs is in your head and previous success is not a guide to future performance. As a Utd fan you'll probably only fully realise this when Alex Ferguson retires and the banks come calling for their cash.