Nearly doored - brakes are sh*te in the wet!

SubLuminal

Ok so first off can anyone reccomend a good set of pads for calipers for the wet? I don't know if its just calipers in general, or the type I have, but my brakes were seriously doing f**k all today in the wet. Very not cool and dangerous.

Dooring incident was a result - cycling on o'Connell St and a taxi pulls in infront of me a ways up and the passenger opens his door into my cycle lane. Yelled and squeezed brakes for all I was worth and managed to turn the bike and go around the outside of the taxi - *just* - cleared it by inches.. It was a lot scarier than it sounds when written down I suppose. I went ape**** at the prick getting out of the cab but he couldnt give a toss, started swearing and shouting back at me. I parked up and went back looking for the him with the full intention of expressing my anger physically, but I couldnt find him. Spent about 10 mins looking but he'd legged it. I was about as furious as I've ever been.

So, - 1) Don't necessarily expect your brakes to work in the wet
2) Be extra wary of having to stop and the idiocy of people in cars.

In retrospect, all things considered, its a very good thing that I couldn't find the tw@t, as my full intention was to swing my u-lock into his face at full force, and thats deplorable, I know it is, I just had the full red mist absolute fury going on, but still - what a cvnt!

Rage over.

Can someone reccomend better brake pads?

72hundred

Get the pink ones. Coz der cool - http://www.wiggle.co.uk/p/cycle/7/Kool_Stop_Dura_Ace~Ultegra~105_Pair_Of_Cartridge_Inserts/5300005952/


PS: The salmon ones are actually a softer compound and better for the wet conditions.

bcmf

what I do in the wet is very often touch your brakes off the rim to keep them dry as poss

SubLuminal

I was trying that a bit overall, but I was about a metre from the back of the car when the door flew open, scared the **** out of me if i'm honest. (Although, not literally.. lol!)

levitronix

Swissstop greens work well in the wet , had them all winter on my hack

CheGuedara

levitronix wrote: »

Swissstop greens work well in the wet , had them all winter on my hack

Big +1 on the swissstop greens

If your calipers are decent enough (i.e. dont flex like a sapling) under braking these will make a significant improvement on your ability to anchor up.

Also clean the braking surface if you get these to give the new pads something decent to grab onto - mavic do a mildly abrasive rubber block that does this well.

feck sake lads

i heard good things on the salmon, and been soft'ish they should be easy on the rim's

victorcarrera

Fibrax is another reasonably priced quality brand and can be bought on ebay.
Ensure calipers are centered properly so that the pads grip the rims at the same time.
Hose and brush the rims clean after wet spins.

Doc_Savage

Go fixed..........









I'll get me coat!:o

SubLuminal

Thanks for the tips guys. Todays experience has motivated me to consider investing in some new brakes, let alone brake pads, currently my bike has some vintage weinmann brakes fitted, they were on the frame when I got it, not for any stylistic reason really, but I'm considering replacing them with something a bit more up to date and functional.

Would these

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=34704

be better than these?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/VINTAGE-WEINMANN-1020-ALLOY-BRAKES-PARTS-USED_W0QQitemZ400111693041QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Collectables_Bicycle_RL?hash=item5d2883ecf1

Or does the brake type not matter so much as the brake pad?

Doc_Savage

Doc_Savage wrote: »

Go fixed..........









I'll get me coat!:o

Here you go:

SubLuminal

Doc_Savage wrote: »

Go fixed..........









I'll get me coat!:o

I was actually thinking ALL DAY LONG that when I got home and complained about my brakes on boards that the fixie riders would have a field day! haha

In fairness, I'm quite pleased I avoided the taxi, I'd have felt sheepish if i'd hit it, as someone recently said to me "If your only hazard avoidance skills are good brakes, then..." well they actually trailed off at that point. But still, their point is clear. Like I said i'm just lucky I wasn't hit by a bus as I flew into the other lane.

DirkVoodoo

People tend to have differing opinions, I would just change the pads first and then the calipers if you are still unhappy to avoid unnecessary cost.

I would also stress that, even though these is a bike lane, passing inside a taxi is not a good idea. Take the whole lane, they don't seem to mind too much when they go on strike about blocking all of O'Connell street. Did he indicate or turn on his hazards at all?

Doc_Savage

SubLuminal wrote: »

I was actually thinking ALL DAY LONG that when I got home and complained about my brakes on boards that the fixie riders would have a field day! haha

nah man... just poking fun... i've been doored before and it ain't fun.... taxi pullin in in front of me, i look under my elbow and move to the outside of the taxi (between a bus and said taxi) then the rear door swung open and i caught my handlebar and shoulder on the door, forks spun and then it dropped me about five feet behind the bus as it passed. That thirty seconds of sitting on my ass looking at the taxi driver was a bit disconcerting. the taxi driver helped me up and was screaming at the passenger. even helped me straighten my handlebars!

I had a brake and was squeezing it and had the rear locked up with my weight over the back of the saddle, just ran out of room! sometimes it get's tempting to lash out but i had the taxi driver to diffuse it a bit so i remained dazed and calm!

As for the hipster comment..... nice coat:cool:

Ya I spent an unhealthy amount of time looking for a suitable pic.

SubLuminal

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I would also stress that, even though these is a bike lane, passing inside a taxi is not a good idea. Take the whole lane, they don't seem to mind too much when they go on strike about blocking all of O'Connell street. Did he indicate or turn on his hazards at all?

He overtook me and pulled into the bike lane to stop. It wasnt a hardcore "cut off" move, he left enough room.... just enough room for the passenger to pay the fare and open the door without looking - I'd caught up nicely by then..

SubLuminal

SubLuminal wrote: »

Thanks for the tips guys. Todays experience has motivated me to consider investing in some new brakes, let alone brake pads, currently my bike has some vintage weinmann brakes fitted, they were on the frame when I got it, not for any stylistic reason really, but I'm considering replacing them with something a bit more up to date and functional.

Would these

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=34704

be better than these?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/VINTAGE-WEINMANN-1020-ALLOY-BRAKES-PARTS-USED_W0QQitemZ400111693041QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Collectables_Bicycle_RL?hash=item5d2883ecf1

Or does the brake type not matter so much as the brake pad?

Try changing pads first. Koolstop salmon are the best for wet conditions and they don't eat your rims. If you want to get new callipers try and stretch to 105. Very powerful, if a bit more pricey, but I think saving money on brakes is a real false economy.

Doc_Savage

Deleted User wrote: »

Ya I spent an unhealthy amount of time looking for a suitable pic.

http://www.latfh.com/

good for a laugh if nothing else! i'm too oafish to pass as one of them...

Murph100

Swiss Stop Green will stop you definitely but I've had issues with them gathering aluminium flecks from the rim and grinding the crap out of them.

I've just got some Swiss Stop Salmons to try at the mo, so I'll let ya know. BTW the Campag pads I have, are the best in the dry but friggin' useless in the wet.

SubLuminal

Murph100 wrote: »

I've just got some Swiss Stop Salmons to try at the mo, so I'll let ya know. .

Aye, if you're giving them a ride about tommorow in the rain I'd certainly appreciate a mini review of them, if you can be bothered that is!

Thanks

chakattack

+1 On koolstop salmon pads.

If you're going for new calipers be careful to get the right length drop from the pivot to the pads. If your frame came with Weinnman brakes it might need "deep drop" calipers.

Expect the worst around taxis and never pass a car at speed if you're within dooring distance.

Chips Lovell

Pads are probably just as important as calipers. As several other people said, Koolstop Salmon or Swiss Stop Green are great for the rain. I use the Koolstop Salmon myself and they've great stopping power in the wet.

Having said that, when you're riding around town, when speeds are relatively low, any decent pads should do the trick. I'd make sure the brakes are well set up, i.e. properly aligned to and close to the rim. In my experience, the newer style dual pivot brakes are better than the older models. I had a set of 20+ year old Campagnolo brakes similar to the ones you have for a few years and they definitely weren't as good as recent models.

EDIT: And going inside a taxi which has just pulled in is always a bad move.

BostonB

I thought my MTB brakes were terrible in the wet, but I wasn't setting it up with the pads close enough to the rim. Put them much closer and I can lock them up now, which I couldn't before.

SubLuminal

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/LargeImage.aspx?ModelID=46439&FileName=46439-2.jpg

Are these the kool stop salmon pads people are reccomending? Is that a good price?

Alanstrainor

Quick question for yee. I've got continental gator skins on my bike at the minute (700X25c) and in the wet have found that if i jam hard on the brakes my brakes have more than enough force to lock up both front and rear wheels. Obviously not a good thing to do, but surely only improving brakes and not tyre grip will work against you? Unless i've completely missed something?

Speaking of getting "Doored" I got "Doored" myself way back in September, 4 stitches to my lip, a bullet-hole-esque wound requiring 5 stitches in my shoulder and bruising down the whole right side of my body. The. Worst. Thing. Ever.

SubLuminal

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Quick question for yee. I've got continental gator skins on my bike at the minute (700X25c) and in the wet have found that if i jam hard on the brakes my brakes have more than enough force to lock up both front and rear wheels. Obviously not a good thing to do, but surely only improving brakes and not tyre grip will work against you? Unless i've completely missed something?

- yep, my wheels dont lock. I squeeze the brakes as hard as I can, but the wheels dont lock, thre's hardly any grip between wheel and brake pad.. I've decent tyres, schwalbe marathons, love em, but my brake pads arent too hot I think. EG, the wheels turn at least 2 revolutions I'd say before there is any kind of braking effect whatsoever.

CheGuedara

Murph100 wrote: »

Swiss Stop Green will stop you definitely but I've had issues with them gathering aluminium flecks from the rim and grinding the crap out of them.

I've just got some Swiss Stop Salmons to try at the mo, so I'll let ya know. BTW the Campag pads I have, are the best in the dry but friggin' useless in the wet.

+1 on the stock Campag pads - like trying to brake using butter in the rain. Let us know about the Salmons after you've given them a bit of a test.

Dr_Colossus

SubLuminal wrote: »

Dooring incident was a result - cycling on o'Connell St and a taxi pulls in infront of me a ways up and the passenger opens his door into my cycle lane. Yelled and squeezed brakes for all I was worth and managed to turn the bike and go around the outside of the taxi - *just* - cleared it by inches.. It was a lot scarier than it sounds when written down I suppose. I went ape**** at the prick getting out of the cab but he couldnt give a toss, started swearing and shouting back at me. I parked up and went back looking for the him with the full intention of expressing my anger physically, but I couldnt find him. Spent about 10 mins looking but he'd legged it. I was about as furious as I've ever been.

Just on this, is it not the taxi driver that's at fault here more so than the passenger? The taxi is supposed to pull into a safe location to let his customer(s) exit, he wouldn't stop on the outer lane of a two lane road letting his customers exit onto traffic so why stop in the inner lane and expect passengers to exit onto another lane which happens to be the cycle lane. By right I think they should only be allowed to pull into a loading bay or maybe a bus stop but if they must stop in the middle of the road then surely they should pull into the cycle lane and leave the car by the kerb and ask all passengers to exit by the kerb side?
Granted the passengers should look over their shoulder before exiting for safety reasons but I think it's the drivers responsiblity to inform their passengers when it's safe to exit since they are the ones with access to rear view and side mirrors. In the case above I think I'd have been fuming at the taxi driver and persuing him rather than the passenger who presumed it was safe to exit since that's where the taxi driver pulled in.
What are the legal responsibilities here, I presume that if the taxi driver had stopped on the outer lane of a two lane road and if a passenger flung open a door onto oncoming traffic damaging other cars and maybe even causing an accident that it would be the taxi car at fault? With modern technology such as central locking etc it shouldn't be possible to exit the vehicle until deemed safe by the driver. Anyone in agreement?

Lumen

1. Don't ride a bike in traffic with crap brakes. If the other traffic has better brakes than you you're going to come a cropper sooner or later (probably by rear ending a car).

2. Don't undertake a stopped taxi, or overtake closely. Either driver or passenger is likely to exit.

Given these obvious precautions, if a taxi overtakes you and pulls in, you must either brake hard and wait behind it or overtake widely. There is no other safe option.

I have no idea about liability but it's a bit of an academic point.

Harrybelafonte

I bought the Clarks pads off CRC. They're pretty useless, especially in the wet. Got them cos they was cheap. Won't do that again.

Hermy

Lumen wrote: »

2. Don't undertake a stopped taxi, or overtake closely. Either driver or passenger is likely to exit.

You know there's at least one left hand drive taxi operating in Dublin.

Lumen

Hermy wrote: »

You know there's at least one left hand drive taxi operating in Dublin.

That must be confusing for drunk passengers. I imagine the driver gets sat on a lot.

blorg

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

I bought the Clarks pads off CRC. They're pretty useless, especially in the wet. Got them cos they was cheap. Won't do that again.

I have been using the V-brake Clark pads on my commuter. They work fine for me as long as the brakes are properly adjusted. As well as the stock pads. Trivial to lock the wheel. They are not wet-specific but any non-wet-specific pad will be crap in heavy rain. Very good value at the money.

FWIW Kool Stop salmon are best in the wet but I find them spongey in the dry. Last a very long time in my experience.

cdaly_

SubLuminal wrote: »

- yep, my wheels dont lock. I squeeze the brakes as hard as I can, but the wheels dont lock, thre's hardly any grip between wheel and brake pad.. I've decent tyres, schwalbe marathons, love em, but my brake pads arent too hot I think. EG, the wheels turn at least 2 revolutions I'd say before there is any kind of braking effect whatsoever.

I found my brakes weren't being too effective yesterday too. Then, setting out this morning, they weren't any better. Had a look and they were well worn out!

Put in new pads by the roadside and all is well...

blorg wrote:

Kool Stop salmon are best in the wet but I find them spongey in the dry.

So, how many people here swap over their brake pads depending on the weather? Or do you just go for wet season / dry season (assuming we could rely on such in this country)?

Harrybelafonte

blorg wrote: »

I have been using the V-brake Clark pads on my commuter. They work fine for me as long as the brakes are properly adjusted. As well as the stock pads. Trivial to lock the wheel. They are not wet-specific but any non-wet-specific pad will be crap in heavy rain. Very good value at the money.

I'll check the adjustment on them again, in case, but they really don't seem half as good as the tektro that came with the bike.

Highway_To_Hell

cdaly_ wrote: »

Put in new pads by the roadside and all is well...

Do you carry spare pads wth you?

My braking ability yesterday was shocking and presumed it was the wet, but today they were no better and when I checked I noticed they were well worn, will stop off on the way home and get them changed.

blorg

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

I'll check the adjustment on them again, in case, but they really don't seem half as good as the tektro that came with the bike.

Mine were also Tektro for what it's worth. Heavy rain will neutralise ANY non-wet-specific pad though- it could also just be worse conditions. If you can lock the wheel in the dry I'd say they are good.

@cdaly- no, I don't swap pads, just have different pads on different bikes.

cdaly_

Highway_To_Hell wrote: »

Do you carry spare pads wth you?

Yep. I use these BBB cartridge pads so it's just the actual rubber that I carry. And I'll be able to find them when I want them rather than searching at home.

I'm a bit of a packrat in any case. Rack bag always has tools, spare cables, pads, tubes, repair kit, first aid kit, locks, batteries and the rest. Prolly adds an extra few kilos (not counting the (significant) weight of the lock)...

Golfanatic

would you be able to cut up a rain specific pad and a dry specific pad and run them in the same brake shoe? that would be coool

blorg

Golfanatic wrote: »

would you be able to cut up a rain specific pad and a dry specific pad and run them in the same brake shoe? that would be coool

They are available, they are called "dual compound" pads.



Kool Stop even make a system (for V brakes at least) where you get the pads in thirds and you can arrange dry and wet whatever way you like in a cartridge holder. They call it "Tectonic."

doozerie

For caliper brakes there is very little in the way of adjustability so the best you can do is to ensure that both pads are positioned to hit the rim fully on the braking surface, in line with the curve of the rim, and that both pads are in line with each other. Depending on the brakes themselves, as the pads wear you might have to re-adjust their position (less of an issue on dual-pivot though, in my experience).

With cantilevers/V-brakes you get greater adjustability (and more grey hairs as a result as when fitting them as you'll need at least 4 more hands than you'll have!) as you can adjust the various angles at which the pad hits the rim. One useful trick is to wrap a rubber band around the rear end of each block when adjusting them. Once adjusted, remove the rubber bands and the pads should touch the rim at the front each of each block when you pull the lever, with a very small gap between the rim and rear end of the blocks - when you brake, the back end of the pads will essentially be dragged onto the rim giving great braking effect. Personally I find that having the "arms" of both brake blocks parallel with the ground when in contact with the rim also gives better/stronger braking. Inevitably cantilever brake blocks will need some adjustment as the pads wear, V-brakes less so but probably would still benefit from it.

Regardless of brake type though, decent inner and outer brake cables help too, as can ensuring that the outer cables are not any longer than necessary. Basically, anything to minimise flex from the levers all the way to the brakes helps.

As for Campag brakes, I believe they used to be known as "speed attenuators". I was reminded of that a couple of months back when heading into a sharp corner in the wet while descending and finding that my brakes were just about tickling the rims at best. My brakes are 10 years old though so maybe newer Campag brakes are more effective - for example, I believe that newer Chorus and Record brakesets have a conventional single pivot caliper option for the front as the dual pivot there was found to be more effective than necessary (or something).

EDIT: Forgot to mention that both brake pads should touch the rim at the same time. It's usually easy enough to adjust/centre calipers for this, even just using your hand and no tools (depends on the calipers though). Cantilevers and V-brakes are trickier, but again it depends on which ones you have.

mockler007

SubLuminal wrote: »

Ok so first off can anyone reccomend a good set of pads for calipers for the wet? I don't know if its just calipers in general, or the type I have, but my brakes were seriously doing f**k all today in the wet. Very not cool and dangerous.

Dooring incident was a result - cycling on o'Connell St and a taxi pulls in infront of me a ways up and the passenger opens his door into my cycle lane. Yelled and squeezed brakes for all I was worth and managed to turn the bike and go around the outside of the taxi - *just* - cleared it by inches.. It was a lot scarier than it sounds when written down I suppose. I went ape**** at the prick getting out of the cab but he couldnt give a toss, started swearing and shouting back at me. I parked up and went back looking for the him with the full intention of expressing my anger physically, but I couldnt find him. Spent about 10 mins looking but he'd legged it. I was about as furious as I've ever been.

So, - 1) Don't necessarily expect your brakes to work in the wet
2) Be extra wary of having to stop and the idiocy of people in cars.

In retrospect, all things considered, its a very good thing that I couldn't find the tw@t, as my full intention was to swing my u-lock into his face at full force, and thats deplorable, I know it is, I just had the full red mist absolute fury going on, but still - what a cvnt!

Rage over.

Can someone reccomend better brake pads?

I got Hayes n.i.n.e disc setup, you can do stoppies in the wet using your baby finger. UPGRADE UPGRADE

cdaly_

cdaly_ wrote: »

I'm a bit of a packrat in any case. Rack bag always has tools, spare cables, pads, tubes, repair kit, first aid kit, locks, batteries and the rest. Prolly adds an extra few kilos (not counting the (significant) weight of the lock)...

So this evening, in the course of washing the bike*, I took off the rack bag and nearly fell over under the weight of it. Put it up on the kitchen scales where it weighed in at 5.4kg! I stripped it out and left out the crap but the trimmed down weight is still about 4.5kg. Lock weighs 2.5kg. The other 2kg is: Tools 200g tube, levers, CO2 200g, first aid kit 250g, helmet lamp 200g, bag itself 800g, other crap (inc rain jacket) 350g...


So, is there ever a situation when a chain tool would be handy at the roadside?

*'cos Raam looked at it funny...

cdaly_

cdaly_ wrote: »

So, is there ever a situation when a chain tool would be handy at the roadside?

*'cos Raam looked at it funny...

If your chain snaps you can remove the broken link and rejoin the chain with a link pin. You can get compact multi tools with an included chain tool. I don't carry one cos I don't think it's that likely it'll happen (touches wood).

tomasrojo

cdaly_ wrote: »

So, is there ever a situation when a chain tool would be handy at the roadside?

I've broken a chain twice on the road. But that was before I finally bought some instruction manuals and learned to maintain my bike. I used to do quite sizeable distances because I used the bike for every journey I did, but never did any proper maintenance. I suppose a chain tool would have been handy on those two occasions, but I would have had no idea how to use it back then.

Since I learnt how to do maintenance, I have had to use a chain tool at the road side once, when the chain fell off and lodged itself between the frame and the freewheel; bizarrely, the only way I could figure out to extricate it was to break it and rejoin it. Proper maintenace would have meant this wouldn't have happened in the first place.

I still carry a chain tool as part of my everyday toolkit, but it's at item on a multitool.

doozerie

I carry a chain tool/splitter with me too, mainly out of habit as a lot of my cycling was before I ever had a mobile phone to call for help, and even if I'd had a phone I was living in places where there was no-one I knew who had a car to come collect me anyway. Those circumstances are very good incentives to ensure you are as self sufficient as possible when riding far from your home, and particularly when riding off-road where you can't even hope to rely on the sympathy of a passing motorist.

I carry the Park compact chain tool, which is small but very good for its size. The chain tool on some of the multi-tools have a reputation for being problematic (not robust enough and/or can't cope with some types of chain) so I've always avoided them. These days there is another option though, which is to leave the chain tool at home and bring a powerlink with you instead (this is a SRAM one but other chain manufacturers produce them too). That'll allow you to rejoin a broken chain (they are usually compatible with a number of brands of chain) - it's obviously not as versatile as a chain splitter, but would probably deal with the majority of chain issues that arise. If the chain breaks because only one pin pops out though, then you'd find yourself having to forcibly remove the pin from the other end of the affected link of course in order to fit the powerlink, but that just requires a bit of brute force and ignorance (or it's an excuse to carry a Leatherman with a pliers function, and a hammer, etc...!).

blorg

tomasrojo wrote: »

I've broken a chain twice on the road. But that was before I finally bought some instruction manuals and learned to maintain my bike.

Same here, I have never broken a chain since I started cleaning it properly and replacing it when necessary.

I don't generally carry a chain tool but sometimes do touring. I got this Topeak one before I actually got a full-size chain tool. Have actually only used it to install chains at home but it works very well indeed. Includes a 4+5mm allen key, bent clothes hanger type bit for holding the chain together while you do it and room for two spare chain pins.