Argos refuse to honour guarantee

llc

I bought a kettle from Argos last July for €37.
Last week the lid started sticking and needed a hand to open it.
On Saturday it was more difficult to open than before and in attempting to open it the lid snapped off.
So, I brought the kettle and receipt back to Argos.

The lady in the shop claimed it was my fault due to "excessive force" and refused to deal with the kettle. ie no repair and no refund. She claimed if I had broght it back before the hinge snapped then she would have changed it but to be honest I don't believe that, I'm sure she would have had some other excuse.
I had planned to buy a few other items while in Argos but obviously I didn't. Guess €37 is more important than goodwill or statutory rights.

Co-incidentally, a hair dryer I bought from Peter Marks for €60 practically a year ago also stopped working last week.
They apologised for not having the same colour hair dryer and replaced it with no quibbles.

jor el

The hair drier stopped working, so it was replaced (they could have offered a repair or refund too), which is right.

The kettle didn't stop working, you broke the lid off.

This is not a statutory rights or warranty issue. You broke it. The fact that the lid was sticking would have required assistance from Argos had you returned it. But you didn't, so how do you expect them to fix a sticking lid that is now physically broken. You can't even prove it was sticking.

User error is not a warranty or statutory issue, it's your own fault.

Saruman

Could you not argue though that the lid is meant to be opened and if the excessive force needed to break it was necessary to open it then it was not fit for purpose?

The issue should have been brought to the attention of argos sooner but unless there is some odd way of opening this kettle other than simply lifting the lid, then there should be no amount of normal force that could break it. If it broke by applying a more force than simply lifting it then it was not designed very well in the first place. Short of going nuts and ripping it sideways, it should not break.

Personally though I would take it as a sign that a €37 kettle might not be worth it, though its better than a €15 kettle

dudara

The problem here is that the OP cannot prove anymore that the lid was sticking - because it is broken. It's a tough break.

Argos should probably give him the benefit of the doubt - after all, how many people manage to break kettle lids - but he could also be someone chancing his arm.

llc

The cost is irrelevant to the guarantee but of course is relevant to how much effort I will put into this since I have now cooled down a bit!

The kettle should be fit for purpose, ie open lid without breaking, fill with water and then boil?

How would you "chance your arm" on this? What reason would I have to use excessive force? Break the kettle on purpose to get a new shinny one?

I continued to use it for 3 or 4 days because I needed coffee in the morning, I didn't know if I had the receipt or how old it was plus getting to Argos mid week was not a priority.

Jor_el you say " This is not a statutory rights or warranty issue. You broke it. The fact that the lid was sticking would have required assistance from Argos had you returned it. But you didn't, so how do you expect them to fix a sticking lid that is now physically broken. You can't even prove it was sticking. "
Are you basing this on experience of such claims? Am I liable for more annoyance if I pursue this?

Incidentally, it is stuck again although with the hinges severed. The mechanism which should open it is independent of the hinges, in my opinion, the hinges facilitate opening but are not part of that mechanism.
For what its worth or not I do have more qualification than the lady in the shop for making such a statement since I am a qualified design engineer (not of small electrical appliances).

Anybody suspect this is a common Argos strategy?

jor el

llc wrote: »

Incidentally, it is stuck again although with the hinges severed. The mechanism which should open it is independent of the hinges, in my opinion, the hinges facilitate opening but are not part of that mechanism.

All you can do is ask again, but since it is physically damaged, they are well within their rights to refuse. They could accept responsibility for the dodgy mechanism that sticks, but make you pay for the broken hinge. They probably wouldn't do this, they'd either replace it all together, or tell you no.

llc wrote: »

For what its worth or not I do have more qualification than the lady in the shop for making such a statement since I am a qualified design engineer (not of small electrical appliances).

Your qualifications are irrelevant. Only someone who is certified by the manufacturer can make such a statement and have it mean anything.

llc wrote: »

Anybody suspect this is a common Argos strategy?

No. If something is faulty or breaks down, Argos will replace it.

Domscard

llc wrote: »

Anybody suspect this is a common Argos strategy?

In my experience, Argos stores are the most customer friendly when it comes to returns. Whether for a 'change of mind' reason within the first 30 days or a fault that develops within a year, I know I can rely on them. That's why they are generally my first port of call for many items, even if they are not always the cheapest.
In the OP's case, it would have been best to bring the item back at the first sign of a problem. I have done that with Argos in the past (CD player lid) and they checked it out in store and refunded my money right away. Problems like that don't 'go away' - in fact they generally get worse and frequently result in frustration and further damage. The sticking lid was Argos's responsibility; unfortunately, the broken lid is the OP's.
BTW, I do not work in Argos nor do I have any connection to anyone who does.

ejmaztec

Anyone breaking something can't expect any retailer to take the item back. It's common sense that if something is stuck, something's going to give when trying to "unstick" it, especially plastic, or some other flimsy substance.

I would expect a design engineer to realise this, if no-one else.

llc

ejmaztec - Must be wonderful to have enough time to indulge all your opinions! Perhaps if I had as much spare time I might have put some thought into the possible long term consequences of plastic sticking on a €37 Kettle!

ejmaztec

llc wrote: »

ejmaztec - Must be wonderful to have enough time to indulge all your opinions! Perhaps if I had as much spare time I might have put some thought into the possible long term consequences of plastic sticking on a €37 Kettle!

Well, if you go off and design the perfect non-stick electric kettle, then you'll be able to retire on the proceeds, and you'll have loads of spare time for whatever indulgence takes your fancy.:P

Magenta

llc wrote: »

ejmaztec - Must be wonderful to have enough time to indulge all your opinions! Perhaps if I had as much spare time I might have put some thought into the possible long term consequences of plastic sticking on a €37 Kettle!

I think you hit a nerve here ejmaztec... You have SO MUCH spare time to write two-line posts that coincidentally, are not what the OP wants to hear

OP, you broke your kettle. Buy a new one.

ejmaztec

Magenta wrote: »

I think you hit a nerve here ejmaztec... You have SO MUCH spare time to write two-line posts that coincidentally, are not what the OP wants to hear

OP, you broke your kettle. Buy a new one.

No time for a full reply, I'm polishing my appliances.

Cabaal

llc wrote: »

ejmaztec - Must be wonderful to have enough time to indulge all your opinions! Perhaps if I had as much spare time I might have put some thought into the possible long term consequences of plastic sticking on a €37 Kettle!

Its sad really, you come onto the consumer forum looking for help most likely in the view that people will fully agree with you, but things don't go your way and you find your actually in the wrong.

So what do you do, turn against all the posters...nice
:rolleyes:

For what its worth or not I do have more qualification than the lady in the shop for making such a statement since I am a qualified design engineer (not of small electrical appliances).

Now now, you might want to get down off that high horse of yours,

Finally in relation to Argos enforcement of policy's and warranty's, I've always found them extremely helpful in relation to any queries I've ever had....mind you I've never brought in something to them that I broke due to brute force

noodler

At the same time Cabaal, posters (mods included) could be little more tactful in telling somebody that they do not have a case.

Whats wrong with "you have not got a case", instead of "its your own fault"

ejmaztec

noodler wrote: »

At the same time Cabaal, posters (mods included) could be little more tactful in telling somebody that they do not have a case.

Whats wrong with "you have not got a case", instead of "its your own fault"

If someone is told that they don't have a case, they will ask why, and in this case there's only really one answer.

Magenta

ejmaztec wrote: »

If someone is told that they don't have a case, they will ask why, and in this case there's only really one answer.

Damn straight!

Cabaal

noodler wrote: »

At the same time Cabaal, posters (mods included) could be little more tactful in telling somebody that they do not have a case.

Whats wrong with "you have not got a case", instead of "its your own fault"

Well in this case whilst I'm a mod I am a normal user on this forum in the same manner as you, can't comment for anyone else though

In relation to the response the OP should get, well you could also argue that just replying with "you have no case" isn't very helpful as it doesn't explain to the OP why he doesn't have a case.

In this instance the OP seems oblivious to why he has no case dispite it being explained to him....go figure :pac:

noodler

ejmaztec wrote: »

If someone is told that they don't have a case, they will ask why, and in this case there's only really one answer.

jor el wrote: »

User error is not a warranty or statutory issue, it's your own fault.

The above was actually the first response the OP got. Disregard whether he was right or wrong for a moment - this kind of response, in the first instance, is a little condescending.

yoshytoshy

Argos are probably the best for returning all types of goods.

How are the folks in argos to know that the kettle wasn't dropped and thats how the lid broke off ?

Domscard

I agree with noodler - there are kinder ways to put things that might help to defuse an already inflammatory situation for posters in trouble. It's not politic to feed the frustration, even if responders know they're right and see complaints as more of the 'same old, same old'.
I've occasionally seen replies here that are more about the poster airing his/her superiority than offering help - not saying that that is necessarily the case here, of course. What seems unreasonable (and perhaps frequently is) may simply result from helplessness and the inability to feel heard.
And before someone points a cynical finger at PI, this CI forum is almost on a par in its need to emphasise respect for people in difficulty.

stopusingoil

So: "It's ok to sell faulty products as long as the user causes harm to the product as a direct result of the fault." Seems to be the general consensus.

I disagree with every last one of you. You are all simply agreeing with each-other for fear that one of you may be wrong. Sheep.

The kettle is faulty. That is a FACT. In my opinion, the lid is broken as a result of said fault. Simple.

How people can actually take a corporation's side in this sickens me, although it explains a lot about the political state of the country at the moment.

Domscard

stopusingoil wrote: »

So: "It's ok to sell faulty products as long as the user causes harm to the product as a direct result of the fault." Seems to be the general consensus.

I disagree with every last one of you. You are all simply agreeing with each-other for fear that one of you may be wrong. Sheep.

The kettle is faulty. That is a FACT. In my opinion, the lid is broken as a result of said fault. Simple.

How people can actually take a corporation's side in this sickens me, although it explains a lot about the political state of the country at the moment.

No one here has said that it's ok to sell faulty products. However, once a fault develops and a consumer compounds the problem by breaking it they leave themselves in an invidious position. Argos would have been obliged to replace or refund the item if it was returned before the OP broke the lid by forcing it. Argos have now no way to determine if a fault existed prior to the breakage and they cannot remedy the original fault.
I think the 'political state of the country at the moment' has little to do with the OP's complaint - this response would be the same in any other forum in the world and at any other time period.
PS - I'm not at all afraid to be wrong or stand against the crowd

Cabaal

stopusingoil wrote: »

How people can actually take a corporation's side in this sickens me, although it explains a lot about the political state of the country at the moment.

Seriously?

wow just wow, its insulting that you'd compare your tiny (and in the scale of things completely meaningless) problem to a world wide and Irish economic/political issues.

deadl0ck

I just can't believe this thread !
I understand that the OP is very pi**ed of as they had a faulty product, and it caused them, inadvertently, to break it.

I do find it strange that people think that a shop should believe someone with absolutely no proof of the claim (and, yes, in this case it does seem to be genuine).

stopusingoil - Can you explain, in a standard procedure, how this should be handled by a shop in your opinion ?

As I see it, here is what you are saying the process should be :
- Person walks into a shop with an item they broke because of a fault with the product
- They tell the shop it was a fault with the product, that caused them to break the item, however, they cannot prove this fault in any way
- Shop refunds the person

Does that sound reasonable ?

Can you explain how a shop would differenciate the above from the following process :
- Person walks into a shop with an item they broke through their own abuse/misuse of the product
- They tell the shop it was a fault with the product, that caused them to break the item, however, they cannot prove this fault in any way
- Shop refunds the person

I'd love some clarification here as to how a shop should tell the difference.

I'm not taking the side of a the corporation here, but you are basically saying all shops or businesses (big or small) should believe a claim without proof.

If a 3rd party accussed someone you know of doing something, would you just believe this 3rd party, or would you require some shred of proof ??

jimmycrackcorm

deadl0ck wrote: »

As I see it, here is what you are saying the process should be :
- Person walks into a shop with an item they broke because of a fault with the product
- They tell the shop it was a fault with the product, that caused them to break the item, however, they cannot prove this fault in any way
- Shop refunds the person

Does that sound reasonable ?

Can you explain how a shop would differenciate the above from the following process :
- Person walks into a shop with an item they broke through their own abuse/misuse of the product
- They tell the shop it was a fault with the product, that caused them to break the item, however, they cannot prove this fault in any way
- Shop refunds the person

I'd love some clarification here as to how a shop should tell the difference.

Perhaps you might give some clarification on how a kettle gets broken through mis-use? Is it not reasonable to make the assumption that the lid wassturdy enough.

For those who suggest that it would have been only valid to bring back the kettle when sticking, what if it had broken off without any sticking problem (perhaps due to a design or manufacturing flaw)? Is that only valid because the OP happened to mention that it started sticking?

deadl0ck

Perhaps you might give some clarification on how a kettle gets broken through mis-use

Anything really, that's the users fault, e.g.:
- They drop it and it breaks
- They have the lid the sticking up while filling it with water and then catch it on the bottom of a wall press or something like that, and break it off.
- One of their kids knocks it on the ground accidently and breaks the lid
- etc...

I'm just saying that you need some sort of proof that it was a manufacturers fault first, otherwise people would just break stuff all the time and return it for replacements, espescially after say 11 months of use - just break it and get a new one before the 12 months is up.

jor el

noodler wrote: »

The above was actually the first response the OP got. Disregard whether he was right or wrong for a moment - this kind of response, in the first instance, is a little condescending.

Actually, the first thing I said about this issue was:
The kettle didn't stop working, you broke the lid off.

And the 2nd thing I said, which actually answered the question the OP had, was:

This is not a statutory rights or warranty issue. You broke it. The fact that the lid was sticking would have required assistance from Argos had you returned it. But you didn't, so how do you expect them to fix a sticking lid that is now physically broken. You can't even prove it was sticking.

But fee free to continue quoting out of context in order to back up your flawed assessment of the situation. Explain how I could have made this any clearer, as I notice you have given no actual advice, but are just complaining about the advice of others.

Domscard wrote: »

I agree with noodler - there are kinder ways to put things that might help to defuse an already inflammatory situation for posters in trouble. It's not politic to feed the frustration, even if responders know they're right and see complaints as more of the 'same old, same old'.

I'm not here to mollycoddle posters, or hold their hand and make sure their feelings aren't hurt. I gave a full and frank answer to a simple question. Where is your advice on how to resolve the problem?

Domscard wrote: »

And before someone points a cynical finger at PI, this CI forum is almost on a par in its need to emphasise respect for people in difficulty.

I broke my kettle is hardly on a par with; I was abused as a child, or; my husband is having an affair, now is it?

stopusingoil wrote: »

The kettle is faulty. That is a FACT. In my opinion, the lid is broken as a result of said fault. Simple.

You're skipping over the fact that the owner broke the lid off. This is quite important, and you can't just forget about it. Your opinion is exactly that, an opinion, and it is not the law. As I also answered earlier in the thread;
All you can do is ask again, but since it is physically damaged, they are well within their rights to refuse. They could accept responsibility for the dodgy mechanism that sticks, but make you pay for the broken hinge. They probably wouldn't do this, they'd either replace it all together, or tell you no.

Domscard

jor el wrote: »

I'm not here to mollycoddle posters, or hold their hand and make sure their feelings aren't hurt. I gave a full and frank answer to a simple question. Where is your advice on how to resolve the problem?


I broke my kettle is hardly on a par with; I was abused as a child, or; my husband is having an affair, now is it?


/QUOTE]

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear enough but I spoke in general on the issue of replies to posters and I didn't make any reference to your post - or even to this thread alone in relation to 'kinder' replies. As my other responses made clear, I have no issue with the facts and the advice given - my own is totally in accord with that.
The point I was trying to make relates to the structure of some replies, where a little bit of conciliation would go a long way. Clearly, a broken kettle is not the same as child abuse but many people who post on CI are feeling very angry and frustrated about their particular issue and have sometimes been treated badly by retailers. I also fully acknowledge that the opposite is also the case and some people believe they have rights that go way beyond reality.
Like with these two extremes, there is surely a middle ground between mollycoddling and dismissal in a response - perhaps not always easy to pitch in plain text on the internet?

bongi69

Unfortunately OP, the onus is on the consumer to return the product as soon as a fault appears. If you don't, you run the risk of situations like this arising.
I'll give you an example from when I used to work for a certain electrical retailer. Customer bought a DVD player, and after 2 months the drawer started sticking. Customer started just pulling the drawer out, and eventually the whole drive drawer came out. We couldn't take it back as it had been damaged by the consumer, and as such we couldn't prove there was an original fault. The customer was using the device contrary to the instructions, the drawer was not meant to be pulled out.

Going on my experiences with Argos, they've always been fairly good with returns. I bought a car stereo a while back, and 10 months in a buzzing could be heard from the car's rear speakers. I had checked the speaker wiring and nothing was amiss with it. Returned the stereo to them and they offered refund or replacement.

This is gonna have to be a situation that you'll have to take on the chin. Its not an expensive item, replace it, and from now on, when a fault appears, take the item back as soon as is possible.

If you do want more advice, you can contact the National Consumer Agency to see what they have to say.

stopusingoil

Cabaal wrote: »

Seriously?

wow just wow, its insulting that you'd compare your tiny (and in the scale of things completely meaningless) problem to a world wide and Irish economic/political issues.

My tiny problem? I don't have a problem.

World wide and Irish economic/political issues?? Hahaha good one, but that's not what I was referring to.

STOP HEARING WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR AND LISTEN!!!

Magenta

stopusingoil wrote: »

STOP HEARING WHAT YOU WANT TO HEAR AND LISTEN!!!

It's rude to shout.

From your post and your user name it seems to me like you are on some sort of save-the-world mission. Charity begins at... eh, Argos?