Gilmore accuses Cowen of "economic treason"

patmar

Treason is to betray or illegally overthrow a sovereign government. Gilmore is more of a sham than I thought if he thinks us FF people are going to forget his vile attack on a patriotic Irishman.

whynotwhycanti

patmar wrote: »

a patriotic Irishman.

Thanks for the laugh, i mean, i would expect a patriotic irishman to have the country's best interest at heart.

Also, would you get it right, he said economic treason. There is a difference, something Cowen failed to realise in his response.

whynotwhycanti

patmar wrote: »

if he thinks us FF people are going to forget his vile attack on a patriotic Irishman.

I think you should be more worried about whether the ordinary decent patriotic citizens of this country will ever forget the absolute vile and horrendous sitauation FF have put us in.

Don't worry, i'm a a staunch independent, not affiliated with any party so my attack on the government is based on on my opinion while your defence is based on party ties. Take your head out of the sand

patmar

In the real world I ask the ABFF these three questions


What exactly did FF do wrong

What exactly would the opposition have done

What exactly will the opposition do to sort out the problems they allege FF caused


They get stuck in answering question No 1 and refuse no matter how much one tries to move to questions 2 and 3

Usually walk away with a smile on my face

jmayo

sirromo wrote: »

They might have been under pressure from the EU to prevent the kind banking collapse that could trigger the domino effect that might lead to the toppling of other banks throughout the EU.

Funny then that the EU and ECB were pretty surprised the morning that they were told about the bank guarantee.

Yes we can be pretty sure that the ECB didn't want anything that could cause run on euro, but the whole Anglo thing stinks.
My point always has been that if Anglo and say IN were allowed go, together with an immediate capitalisation if not nationalisation of the other really systemic banks, we might have saved ourselves a hell of a lot of money.

As it is we are paying and will be paying for generations for the worst.

whynotwhycanti

patmar wrote: »

What exactly did FF do wrong



Usually walk away with a smile on my face

You are joking, yeah? I mean there is no point in going back over what they did wrong, everyone knows what they did wrong and how it happened. If you haven't been keeping up to date it is not the responsibility of people on here to spoon feed it to you. Have you picked up a paper recently, you do realise we are in a horrendous recession, so close to have been taken over by the IMF with FF steering the ship?

As for walking away with a smile on your face, ignorance is bliss.

whynotwhycanti

patmar wrote: »

the problems they allege FF caused

I re-read your post and just had to write something else. You must be a troll, absolutely deluded, living on cloud cuckoo land or just plain ignorant.

yop

patmar wrote: »

Usually walk away with a smile on my face

As have all the bankers who's asses that FF's head has been stuck up for the last 10 years.

As have all the FF politicians who have stepped out of line but yet walk away with a pension and a golden handshake the size of 10 years of my salary.


Come back to us when your mortgage rate is ranked up by another 3 points in the next 12/18 months.

Come back to us when your job is in bother and your biting the nails off you hands to figure out where your going to get the money to pay the mortgage to the banks who you have just bailed out, because the builders who you have just bailed out decided that they would over price houses and work 10 times more than it was ever worth.

Come back to us when the bank who you have just bailed out are ringing you 10 times per day and will then close in on your house leaving you high and dry.

Where will be FF be for you then?????

They will bitchslap that smile onto the otherside of your face as they wheel off in their mercs and 100k+ a year for buggering the lot of us.
:mad:

Liam Byrne

patmar wrote: »

Treason is to betray or illegally overthrow a sovereign government. Gilmore is more of a sham than I thought if he thinks us FF people are going to forget his vile attack on a patriotic Irishman.

Wahey! It's the one day of the year where there's a point to patmar's posts!

HAPPY APRIL 1st!

snow ghost

patmar wrote: »

Treason is to betray or illegally overthrow a sovereign government. Gilmore is more of a sham than I thought if he thinks us FF people are going to forget his vile attack on a patriotic Irishman.

Au contraire patmar, many 'FF people' agree with Gilmore.

Cowen, Ahern and their cronies have betrayed the FF party as well as the country and the Irish people - that is - and always will be - their vile legacy in Ireland.

Coming up to Easter Week and the anniversary of men and women who sacrificed their lives for what they thought would be a better future for this country and its people, I find your comments about Cowen being a 'patriotic Irishman' a particularly henious insult to their memory.

Cromwell was about as patriotic to Ireland as Cowen et al... and the Irish people will never forget it, no matter how much Ahern deludes himself that he could one day be President.

This FF government are Legion and should be driven into the sea for what they have done.

tipptodd

meditraitor wrote: »

bull

It starts, the old FF/FG (two cheeks of the one arse) trick of smearing the opposition because its different, lets hope more people cop on to this.....

Its time for something different boys and girleens

Indeed a fresh new thinking would be welcome in Irish politics but I dont think Labour will provide it. With policies that are either non existent or unrealistic.

jmayo

So what was biffo minister of finace discussing at the famous get together with Anglo board and CEO ?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article7018140.ece

Also there is another twist in this whole Anglo bailout.

One of Anglos biggest depositors was EMPG (Education Media & Publishing Group), which owns education publisher Riverdeep.

http://www.tribune.ie/article/2008/oct/12/ocallaghans-empg-is-hit-by-debt-concerns/

So lehman's actually might have more to do with this than we ever thought ?
Funny how ff keep saying this mantra.

Concerns have been raised over the $7.6bn of debts held by Education Media & Publishing Group (EMPG), which owns education publisher Riverdeep, after it emerged it has an exposure to Lehman Brothers and to severe cutbacks in education funding by cash-strapped municipalities in the US.

The company, led by billionaire Barry O'Callaghan, has had its credit rating outlook lowered to negative by Standard & Poor's which says the company's ability to avoid breaching bank covenants is in danger of becoming "thinner''.

O'Callaghan, who was reported to be worth €1.4bn earlier this year, has a stake of about 47% in EMPG. "We are concerned about the company's exposure to Lehman Brothers Inc, which provided a portion of the company's revolving credit agreement,'' the agency said. It said "liquidity'' was now the key issue for the rating on EMPG, which owns another education publisher, Houghton Mifflin Harcourt.

Last month the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment Mary Coughlan announced that Houghton Mifflin Harcourt was to invest €350m in a research and development operation in Dublin, leading to the creation of 450 jobs.

While acknowledging the company's businesses have "good market positions'' in key disciplines, concern is expressed about its "steep leverage'' which consists of consolidated debt and preferred shares. The company's lower rating, B-/negative, stems from it having "heightened financial risk" after acquiring the Harcourt publishing business in December 2007 for $4bn.

On 15 January 2010, O'Callaghan admited to having multimillion loans from Anglo Irish Bank and other international banks.
Refusing to confirm the level of his indebtedness, O'Callaghan claimed to still be solvent and stated that he expects to honour all his obligations.

Lads the sooner this government is out and a full public enquiry into the whole Anglo affair the better.

So far the government have refused every FOI request made by media into the bank guarantee decisions and the leadup to it.

tipptodd

Pride Fighter wrote: »

I'd add that Labour do have a policy document released around the last budget. It advocates a 1.15 billion job stimulus and graduate/trades placements designed to get 60,000 people off the dole.

Exactly my point on labour policy. Labour agreed that a 4bn adjustment was needed in the public finances. So where does the 1.15bn come from then? Further cuts to public sector pay, health, education, social welfare or do they raise taxes which deflates the economy further counteracting the stimulus package. Unrealistic and incoherent policy.

Sir Oxman

tipptodd wrote: »

Exactly my point on labour policy. Labour agreed that a 4bn adjustment was needed in the public finances. So where does the 1.15bn come from then? Further cuts to public sector pay, health, education, social welfare or do they raise taxes which deflates the economy further counteracting the stimulus package. Unrealistic and incoherent policy.

Why not start here:

http://www.labour.ie

tipptodd

gambiaman wrote: »

Why not start here:

http://www.labour.ie

In fact have read the whole policy document in full but still makes little sense. This so called policy document would be laughable if it werent so serious. Providing little realism in its figures for a 5.8bn adjustment and sparing only a few lines to the banking situation.

Dannyboy83

patmar wrote: »

Labour is nearly 100 years old
FG is nearly 80 years old

Neither have remotely come close to forming a single party government

Neithwr can claim to have achieved anything worthwhile in their now long miserable history

It will be 30 years before they win enough seats to form a government between them

They have lost the last 6 elections in a row

The last time they were in government it was handed to them on a plate to do a specific job. They failed miserably ! One of the reasons they failed was because included in that government were a group with a dirty political record. The other two parties had a shocking record of failure when in government

These perpetual losers are passing judgement on the only party that has done anything to benefit the people of Ireland

These perpetual losers are calling the leader of FF a traitor

These perpetual losers should take a good look in the mirror ask themselves what exactly is wrong with them

I don't believe you're a genuine FFer, even the hardcore FFers will admit an awful lot of what's wrong, even MM has said that they will be massacred at the polls.

I think you are actually against FF and trying to stir up even more hatred against them.................in which case, you're doing a bloody good job!:)
Keep it up, we'll find a way to fix this country despite Fianna Failure.

oncevotedff

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Treason is defined in Article 39 of the Constitution;

Treason shall consist only in levying war against the State, or assisting any State or person or inciting or conspiring with any person to levy war against the State, or attempting by force of arms or other violent means to overthrow the organs of government established by this Constitution, or taking part or being concerned in or inciting or conspiring with any person to make or to take part or be concerned in any such attempt.

So no he hasn't committed treason. And if he had he couldn't be found guilty of it as there is no law against treason.

Having said that Cowen and co did not bail out the banks in the interests of the Irish people or the state, they did it to rescue the Friends of Fianna Fail.

patmar

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

I don't believe you're a genuine FFer, even the hardcore FFers will admit an awful lot of what's wrong, even MM has said that they will be massacred at the polls.

I think you are actually against FF and trying to stir up even more hatred against them.................in which case, you're doing a bloody good job!:)
Keep it up, we'll find a way to fix this country despite Fianna Failure.

Sorry, I am very much staunch FF and its like what John Gormley said in the Dail after the hammering both parties got at the Local Elections when he was been sneered at by the opposition and challenged to cross the floor, " When I look over there I know why I am staying here! ". John summed it up for me !!

aidan24326

And still nobody has ever offered a proper reason why Anglo needed to be bailed out at all. For who? For what? The government just repeat the mantra of 'oh we must maintain a credible banking system blah blah etc'. Now that is true of course, and I can think of good reasons why we wouldn't want high street consumer banks like AIB and BoI to go to the wall.

But why on earth we need to save Anglo is beyond me. That has never been credibly explained, which makes me wonder if there is a credible explanation at all. Or if this really is just a bailout of the fatcats and friends of FF at taxpayers expense. Most economists who've commented or written on the matter have said that Anglo is now a zombie bank which should have been put out of it's misery, that it's crazy to be throwing billions at it (billions we haven't got and that will only serve to drive the national debt through the roof).

meditraitor

tipptodd wrote: »

In fact have read the whole policy document in full but still makes little sense. This so called policy document would be laughable if it werent so serious. Providing little realism in its figures for a 5.8bn adjustment and sparing only a few lines to the banking situation.

Please articulate on what you didnt understand about the policy document?

The Raven.

oncevotedff wrote: »

Treason is defined in Article 39 of the Constitution;

So no he hasn't committed treason. And if he had he couldn't be found guilty of it as there is no law against treason.

Having said that Cowen and co did not bail out the banks in the interests of the Irish people or the state, they did it to rescue the Friends of Fianna Fail.

In the interpretation used in the Irish Constitution it is not 'treason'. Otherwise, the term is accurate.

jackcee

BANZAI_RUNNER wrote: »

Personally I think Cowen is guilty as charged, I have a 3 year old who will be paying this debt off and so will his kids, it's a disgrace, Cowen should be dragged from the Dail in handcuffs along with the rest of his crew and strung upon the railings in front of Leinster house and left there as a reminder to all those who will follow after

Oh for God's sake man, will you stop repeating this errant nonsense.

By the time your 3 year old gets his first long trousers, the term NAMA will have about the same public resonance as the term Y2K has today.

Unless your son actively pursues an interest in early 21stC Irish History, he will know as much about NAMA as you do about Compulsory Tillage.

Sir Oxman

oncevotedff wrote: »

Treason is defined in Article 39 of the Constitution;



So no he hasn't committed treason. And if he had he couldn't be found guilty of it as there is no law against treason.

Having said that Cowen and co did not bail out the banks in the interests of the Irish people or the state, they did it to rescue the Friends of Fianna Fail.

Notwithstanding the Irish Constitution, the dictionary definition of treason most certainly applies to Big Lips. And Big Nose.;)

Sir Oxman

tipptodd wrote: »

In fact have read the whole policy document in full but still makes little sense. This so called policy document would be laughable if it werent so serious. Providing little realism in its figures for a 5.8bn adjustment and sparing only a few lines to the banking situation.

Fair enough, I thought by your previous post you hadn't read it.

jmayo

jackcee wrote: »

Oh for God's sake man, will you stop repeating this errant nonsense.

By the time your 3 year old gets his first long trousers, the term NAMA will have about the same public resonance as the term Y2K has today.

Unless your son actively pursues an interest in early 21stC Irish History, he will know as much about NAMA as you do about Compulsory Tillage.

Well lets see and use a bit of an example how an Irish bailout cost us citizens dear for a number of years.
We had to pay a levy on insurance for nigh on 20 years because the state had to bail out an insurance company.
And that was a tiny bailout in comparison to what is invesiagted with NAMA and the bank recapitlisation program.

Guess why we had to bail out the PMPA?
It was becuase it's bigeest player/owner had decided to get into dodgy banking. Sound familiar at all ?
Here is another little coincidence he was a major supporter of ff and one charlie haughey.

If you think jackcee that the affects of this little matter will have blown over in 15 years time when the poster's son and indeed my own will hopefully be heading towards college then you haven't the faintest idea of how big this undertaking is.

Our current budget deficit is running at circa €20,000,0000,000
They reckon, excluding NAMA, they will have to pour €22,000,000,000 into keeping just Anglo afloat.
That doesn't count how much is tied up in NAMA and keeping the other banks afloat.

It is you who is the one spouting nonsense.

jackcee

sirromo wrote: »

They might have been under pressure from the EU to prevent the kind banking collapse that could trigger the domino effect that might lead to the toppling of other banks throughout the EU.

At l

The Raven.

gambiaman wrote: »

Notwithstanding the Irish Constitution, the dictionary definition of treason most certainly applies to Big Lips. And Big Nose.;)

I thanked you for that post, but for the record, I wasn't thanking you for the personal comments.

Sir Oxman

The Raven. wrote: »

I thanked you for that post, but for the record, I wasn't thanking you for the personal comments.

No problem.

jackcee

sirromo wrote: »

They might have been under pressure from the EU to prevent the kind banking collapse that could trigger the domino effect that might lead to the toppling of other banks throughout the EU.

At last, a thoughtful view. And most likely, you are bang on the money.
Although it is not as much fun as the conspiracy theories being bounced around here.

If Ben Bernanke was present that night, it is absolutely certain that he would have advised the Govt to do precisely what they finished up doing.

Bernanke regarded the prospect of Lehmann being let go, as "idiocy".
He "rued the day" when he did precisely that on "Sept 14".

Why he acted against his best instincts is why history is so fascinating.

Both SEC and the Fed had placed all their bets on Barclays taking the Lehmann problem away. When the Bank of England made it impossible for Barclays to close the deal, SEC and Fed found itself without a back up strategy.

So much has happened since, that it is often forgotten that, six months earlier, the Treasury and the Fed had bailed out the Bear Stearns bondholders and pushed it into a small double bed with JP MorganChase.

As the show moved on, Paulson had to bail out Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae (not forgetting AIG).

When they found themselves with the Lehmann problem back in their laps, when Barclays walked away, they had no backup strategy agreed.

This is where the human factor kicks in.

Cynics claim that Paulson could not resist the opportunity to kill off Goldman Sachs' greatest rival.

A more benign (and more likely) scenario is that Paulson (with AIG becoming a bigger problem by the hour) decided that he was not going to go down in history as the "Bail Out Secretary".

What is not in dispute, is that Bernanke, despite all his misgivings, acquiesced to Paulson's demands.

Even Bernanke was blown away by the scale (and immediacy) of the Lehmann debacle. The aftermath cost multiples of the amount needed to save it on "Sept 14". And horror of horrors, it sparked off the full scale liquidity crisis which brought us to where we are today.

The ECB which was "quietly grappling" with it's own emerging problems had the opportunity to observe the outcome of the Lehmann debacle. It does not require a rocket scientist to conclude that they determined that no such debacle would occur in their sphere of influence.

So when the Irish boys hit a wall, the ECB had already decided on the policy issues on how to deal with such an eventuality.

It was against this background that the decisions were taken that night.

BTW - Do not buy the fiction that Eugene Sheehy, Gleeson et al just turned up that night in Government Buildings. It is what happened over the preceding 2-3 days that will be of most interest to the historians when the papers (some) are released in 30 years time.

Liam Byrne

jackcee wrote: »

It is what happened over the preceding 2-3 days that will be of most interest to the historians when the papers (some) are released in 30 years time.

Given the scale of the disaster that FF have signed us up to, those papers should be released NOW.

Amhran Nua

jackcee wrote: »

If Ben Bernanke was present that night, it is absolutely certain that he would have advised the Govt to do precisely what they finished up doing.

Bernanke is another one in the mould of Greenspan, whose "market will regulate itself" policies led in no uncertain fashion to the collapse in the first place. They always saw the bust as a function of them not doing enough to be stimulative, not recognising that it was a function of the bubble that came before it. Lehman was only the tip of an absolutely vast iceberg, by the end of it FTD rates on the market for naked shorting were in the billions daily - collapse was inevitable.

If Bernanke had been there he's the last one anyone should have listened to.

The contagion theory is extremely unlikely in the case of Anglo since it was not of systemic importance in any sense of the word, and in similar cases a simple debt for equity negotiation would have been the norm for a cool headed and sensible government.

Mind you its no coincidence that prior to going to the McWilliams household for some early morning advice, our current Minister for Finance was apaprently getting his economics education from Greenspan's biography.

jmcc

The only system to which Anglo-Irish Bank was of systemic importance was the Fianna Fail crony system. So yes. Gilmore was right. Cowen is guilty of economic treason against the Irish people and Ireland. Those economic traitors involved are still walking around with millions of Euro while Irish people struggle to pay mortgages and bills. Some of these traitors were paid off and allowed to retire without consequence. It is very hard to have any respect for a political system that encourages and protects such activities.

Regards...jmcc

Amhran Nua

Brian Lucey hammers it home in the Times yesterday...

It seems that the “buy now, work out how to pay later” virus of the bubble years is rampant in Nama and the Department of Finance.

The other virus, that of funding short to buy long, the very tactic that brought down Lehmans, is also still rampant.

Not content with exposing the taxpayer to the risk (certainty, in my view) that the Nama loans will be overpaid for and will underperform, the National Treasury Management Agency (NTMA), the Department of Finance and the Government have exposed the taxpayer to massive refinancing and interest rate risk.

In a world of tight credit, the taxpayer now has to float €50 billion each and every year. The Government has staked the future of the country on the mercy of the most volatile part of the financial markets, hoping that they will in turn take pity on us.

They won’t – they will extract interest payments from Nama that will, as certain as the sun rises, increase over time.

Funding at the short end of the maturity spectrum will allow the proponents for Nama to claim that it is cheap. It is apparent that neither the NTMA, Nama, the Department of Finance advisers, the Minister nor the Cabinet are aware that the yield curve, which indicates the future cost of funds, is upward sloping; if they do they do not seem to care.

We are funding Nama at the short end of the maturity spectrum to purchase long-term illiquid assets. This is folly, needless folly.

SeanW

Yes, Clowen and Co. are guilty of economic treason, I believe, and he made his "emotional outburst" because the truth hurts.

It had to have been known that Anglo was a toxic mess before the decision to include it in any guarnatee/bailout was known. In fact, I read a post by a lawyer on some forum who had hinted (albeit he couldn't go far) that the bank was so badly run as to barely qualify to be called a bank.

Even if Anglo posed a systemic risk (which I do not accept) it had to have been known that AIB and BOI were also a mess to the point where they might require nationalisation. Well guess what, even without the systemic risk of an Anglo collapse, AIB has now to be nationalised and BOI will avoid it by a cigarette paper. So shag all saved there. I really can think of no explanation for throwing €25bn+ down the Anglo black hole except that FF wanted to protect its banker-builder buddies.

seanogseanog

:mad:

seanogseanog

....

SeanW

???