Lidl proposed for Swords

Uriel.

pinkypinky wrote: »

Yes, I intend to copy my objections to the local Swords councillors and TDs. It irks me a bit that I have to pay the money to object legitimately but it's worth it in this case.

I know what you are saying in relation to the cost but believe me it is there for good reason.

When you have to pay for something like this - objections received are much more likely to be genuine and centred around the real issues rather than ideology and bandwagonning (not sure if that's a real word).

It helps to limit the time wasting reviewing silly submissions made by people who are not going to be affected etc... saves money and speeds up the process.

dsmythy

jackiexx wrote: »

thats crazy isnt it!!!is jcs not cheap enough as it is without competitors:P

I suspect Lidl fancy their chances of taking JC's down thus removing the issue of two supermarkets side by side.

meditraitor

dsmythy wrote: »

I suspect Lidl fancy their chances of taking JC's down thus removing the issue of two supermarkets side by side.

They would be wrong there, JC's is as cheap and the fruit/veg actually last longer than a day once you bring it home.
3 bottle of wine for a €10 in JCs a few weeks ago, and always bargains when I go in.


The main difference I find is that JC's is one of those shops that you can go to regular and not get pissed off with. Lidl/aldi are an odd time for a look shop.

PCros

dsmythy wrote: »

I suspect Lidl fancy their chances of taking JC's down thus removing the issue of two supermarkets side by side.

Quality...JC's has it and Lidl doesnt. The meat, poultry and fish in JC's is top quality as for the meat in Lidl I wouldn't feed to my cat.

Plus the whole range in JCs would be superior, Lidls tend to be small with not alot of selection.

This argument is more about the traffic and infrastructure rather than competition.

Uriel.

I think JC is likley to suffer a bit no doubt. But I think as the last poster says, JCs will survive the competition.

For example, JCs offers low prices in or around the same as what Lidl offers in most cases but at the same time offers great service.

You go in to Lidl and you're lucky to have two checkouts open and queue for ages with your shopping etc... even if you're just buying a handful of things - no baskets etc... Now that's their business model like what Ryanair offers (no frills) and I've no problem with that - you need to expect that service going in there but put Lidl and JCs side by side and I will choose JCs everyday of the week.

sharkman

R.I.P JC Savage, Legend.

Bluetonic

What traffic does the garage currently generate per hour and how does this compare with predicted traffic for Lidl?

If the quality of JCs food is so much superior than Lidls as outlined above and thats what the consumer wants then they should have no problem competing, in fact they've no reason to be concerned.

Wishbone Ash

ksimpson wrote: »

The old Woodies is not a great location

I thought it was a fine location with easy access off the R132 and quite near the M1. It depends where you live but I think going to Airside is a lot more hassle and timeconsuming and only accessible from the M1 in one direction.

I don't know if it will suit Lidl though as I think they go for green field sites and construct from scratch. I can't see them demolishing Woodies to rebuild.

crispsandwiches wrote: »

greedy fingal don't care they just want the bounty of juicy rates from LIDL. its madness allowing them to locate on that rd as per reasons outlined above.

Wouldn't the rates be the same in any site in the town?

Uriel. wrote: »

- e.g. Deputy Kennedy - he cannot interfere with the planning process - but he could certainly rally the troops - speak in the ears of FF local cousellors etc....

That's what has the country the way it is - bending the ear of FF reps. I'd prefer to leave the matter to the planners who should be qualified to make such decisions.

pinkypinky wrote: »

It irks me a bit that I have to pay the money to object legitimately

The fee is to deter the 'do-gooders' and busybodies from objecting to everything for the sake of it.

(I'd say the people who own that recently and expensively refurbished house opposite the filling station won't be too impressed to have a Lidl opposite them.)

JRCC

I haven’t looked at the application but based on the comments, I would raise the following points.

That there is already a shop/service station on the site I would suggest the planners will consider the current use. There is also quite clearly traffic movement in and out of the site at the moment. That includes the HGV traffic that someone mentioned earlier. Obviously delivery of the fuel and stock for the shop is done by HGV. I would suggest that there will not be much additional traffic movement in and out of the site in comparison to what happens there at the moment. In fact, I would say that the current flow of traffic is more intensive as there is more of a turnover. People go in, fill up, pay and leave. I could be wrong but that's what I believe on the face of it.

As for the Woodies site being a better location. For who? That location will not be considered sustainable for retail until the METRO North project is delivered. It is outside the central core of the town, on the far side of the Swords bypass and would be primarily accessed by car. We have to get real and move away from a reliance on private transport to go to the shops.

I know it may be unpopular to say but in planning terms the Rathbeale Road location does seem to be the optimal location for a medium size retail outlet because of the amount of residential development in the area. It is making the area more like a sustainable development because it is bringing services into the community as opposed to bringing the community out of the area to avail of the services.

My suggestion would be that you don’t just to call on the outright rejection of the application but call for the inclusion of additional conditions to the permission granted by the council. For example, if traffic movement is your concern, request that a pedestrian crossing be located adjacent to the site at the expense of the applicant. This will act both as a traffic calming measure and ensure safe pedestrian movement in and around the site. If it’s at the expense of the applicant it means public money will not be used to enhance the safety around this private retail development.

As for asking TDs to intervene. They have no influence over planning matters; they’re not even members of the council. They can make a submission the same as you can. By all means contact your local councillors as they can raise the matter at the Area Committee meeting dealing with planning matters in the Swords area. Again, they have no influence on the outcome but they can put the feeling in the community forward to the planners.

Finally, the point made in regard to the impact the development will have on JC’s is valid but it is ultimately the market that will determine which outlet will flourish or not. JC’s is established and has a lot more variety available to the customer than Lidl has (Dunnes Stores, Florists etc). JC’s also has a loyal customer base. However, if they don’t amend their business plan to stay in that position, they will lose business to Lidl. Overall, competition in the retail sector is good for the consumer so the people will see the benefit in the long run.

PCros

JRCC wrote: »

There is also quite clearly traffic movement in and out of the site at the moment. That includes the HGV traffic that someone mentioned earlier. Obviously delivery of the fuel and stock for the shop is done by HGV.

Yes but the HGV traffic will be in the middle of the night as opposed to during the day. That is unfair for local residents.

You also made a point that Woodies is outside the core town.... so is the Rathbeale road location outside the core location. In fact the Woodies location is ten times easier to access for residents in Malahide, Skerries, Donabate and all other outlying towns.

Bluetonic

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

I don't know if it will suit Lidl though as I think they go for green field sites and construct from scratch. I can't see them demolishing Woodies to rebuild.

Lidl in Balbriggan was not a green field site, the old Hampton Mills factory was on the site and had to be demolished.

Bluetonic

PCros wrote: »

Yes but the HGV traffic will be in the middle of the night as opposed to during the day. That is unfair for local residents.

There are no deliveries in Balbriggan Lidl during the middle of the night and that is also in a residential area, surrounded by houses on two sides for the record.

Where are you getting the middle of the night deliveries from?

Wishbone Ash

JRCC wrote: »

It is outside the central core of the town, on the far side of the Swords bypass and would be primarily accessed by car. We have to get real and move away from a reliance on private transport to go to the shops

The vast majority of people who only venture to a supermarket a couple of times a month are not realistically going to use public transport.

PCros wrote: »

You also made a point that Woodies is outside the core town.... so is the Rathbeale road location outside the core location. In fact the Woodies location is ten times easier to access for residents in Malahide, Skerries, Donabate and all other outlying towns.

100% agree. The Woodies location is much more central for many of us who never venture to the Rathbeale Road end of Swords which is a bit of a backwater by comparison.

JRCC

PCros wrote: »

Yes but the HGV traffic will be in the middle of the night as opposed to during the day. That is unfair for local residents.

You also made a point that Woodies is outside the core town.... so is the Rathbeale road location outside the core location. In fact the Woodies location is ten times easier to access for residents in Malahide, Skerries, Donabate and all other outlying towns.

As I said, request that the council condition the deliveries between certain times.

I believe the Woodies site would be unsustainable. What you are advocating by locating it there is a heavy reliance on cars accessing the outlet. Completely unsustainable in planning terms.

I can't say for sure but it would seem to me that Lidl want to tap into the local residents of Swords by locating on the Rathbeale Road.

PCros

Bluetonic wrote: »

There are no deliveries in Balbriggan Lidl during the middle of the night and that is also in a residential area, surrounded by houses on two sides for the record.

Where are you getting the middle of the night deliveries from?

I have a mate who used to work for them and deliveries were mostly done at night time. The deliveries came from a main warehouse in Kildare and every morning there would be new pallets ready to stock.

Thats where I'm getting that from.

PCros

JRCC wrote: »

I believe the Woodies site would be unsustainable. What you are advocating by locating it there is a heavy reliance on cars accessing the outlet. Completely unsustainable in planning terms.

How? Woodies thrived and had a heavy reliance on cars accessing the store.

Dizzyblonde

Bluetonic wrote: »

If the quality of JCs food is so much superior than Lidls as outlined above and thats what the consumer wants then they should have no problem competing, in fact they've no reason to be concerned.

I think you're missing the point. For over 30 years JC's have put the customer first with the result that their regular customers are very loyal. That's why we'd hate to see Lidl go in so close by.

Lux23

I just heard that JC died, very sad to hear that. I hope the store continues to thrive, he always put the customer first and was a really decent man.

Wishbone Ash

Dizzyblonde wrote: »

For over 30 years JC's have put the customer first

Supermarkets are profit making organuisations. There's nothing wrong with that. Profits are put first then customers. No sustainable business could put customers first and run at a loss.

Bluetonic

Dizzyblonde wrote: »

I think you're missing the point. For over 30 years JC's have put the customer first with the result that their regular customers are very loyal. That's why we'd hate to see Lidl go in so close by.

I think your extremely naive with that opinion of JC's.

Bluetonic

PCros wrote: »

Thats where I'm getting that from.

Fair enough, although no late night deliveries in this Lidl as I said earlier.

Dizzyblonde

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Supermarkets are profit making organuisations.

I'm well aware of that, but unless you've shopped in JC's you wouldn't understand.

Bluetonic

Dizzyblonde wrote: »

I'm well aware of that, but unless you've shopped in JC's you wouldn't understand.

What a load of rubbish.

Dizzyblonde

Bluetonic wrote: »

I think your extremely naive with that opinion of JC's.

I'm well aware of the differences between JC's as a family run business and the likes of the multiples.

I don't know where the idea of naivety comes into play, I was merely offering an opinion as a regular customer.

Bluetonic

Dizzyblonde wrote: »

I'm well aware of the differences between JC's as a family run business and the likes of the multiples.

I don't know where the idea of naivety comes into play, I was merely offering an opinion as a regular customer.

Naivety comes into play if you think Savages put the customer first. They put margins first or else they would have gone out of business back in the 1980s.

The fact that your a regular customer doesn't come into play to their model.

Fair enough if you want to get sentimental on the issue but as I said already if Savages are what the customer wants then Lidl shouldn't be an issue.

jenga-jen

Bluetonic wrote: »

What a load of rubbish.

Without a trace of sentimentality, let me break this down for you. If purely to prevent you from quoting other posters and merely rubbising their opinions.

JC Savage supermarket has been an institution in Swords for over 30 years. Over this time, despite inflation and all other excuses the larger chains and multiples have used to push up prices JC has kept his consistently low.

That combined with his status in the community and the hilarious announcements he does in-store on a daily basis have led to immense loyalty among his customers. To the point that often people who have moved out to Ashbourne and further afield come in to do their shopping.

Now this may sound like sentimentality to you but in a business sense, this is an enormous, if intangible asset to the establishment.

Were they to sell this supermarket alongside an equivalent multiple of equal size and in an identical location, then I can GUARANTEE that the Goodwill built into the purchase price would inevitably put JCs or indeed any similar supermarket out in front.

Never underestimate the power of a business' reputation, specifically in times like these when often it's the only thing they have left to them.

And in relation to Lidl going in to the aforementioned site, it would be an absolute disaster for the area given the logistical setup and the ill-feeling the locals will no doubt have towards it.

Wishbone Ash

Dizzyblonde wrote: »

I don't know where the idea of naivety comes into play, I was merely offering an opinion as a regular customer.

Basically if a supermarket is unable to compete, they are not going to stay open. Profits come before customers. Anyone can be a 'busy fool' as they say in business.

Dizzyblonde

Bluetonic wrote: »

Naivety comes into play if you think Savages put the customer first. They put margins first or else they would have gone out of business back in the 1980s.

The fact that your a regular customer doesn't come into play to their model.

Fair enough if you want to get sentimental on the issue but as I said already if Savages are what the customer wants then Lidl shouldn't be an issue.

'Puts the customer first' is clearly a figure of speech - and I agree that anyone would be naive to take it literally. However, their regular customers very much come into play in their model. Bringing customers back is one of the main aims of any successful business.

Bluetonic

Dizzyblonde wrote: »

Bringing customers back is one of the main aims of any successful business.

After profit.

They didn't make €2m profit after tax and expenses in 2008 without putting profits first.

jenga-jen

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Basically if a supermarket is unable to compete, they are not going to stay open. Profits come before customers. Anyone can be a 'busy fool' as they say in business.

I believe what DizzyBlonde is referring to is the fact that maintaining footfall through your store is also immensely important and she was referring in the figurative and not the literal sense that there would appear to be a culture in JCs of maintaing slightly lower profit margins than the multiples in order to maintain the level of customers coming through the store.

This is how, despite a Dunnes and Superquinn in the area and a Lidl, Tesco and Aldi within a 15 minute drive JCs has managed to remain one of, if not the, most successful supermarkets in the area.

And tbh I can only hope this continues if the ill-advised Lidl site goes ahead.

Don't misunderstand me, Lidl is a fantastic chain and would be a welcome addition to the area. However, the site in question is clearly ill-advised and in the long run will prove detrimental to the area even aside from the effects on the local businesses.