Lidl proposed for Swords

tbh

BollickyBill wrote: »

Dear Poo 15, for someone who has no personal interest in this Lidl issue, you sure seem to know a lot about mini-markets and the number of lines they carry. You also seem to be very familiar with planning and zoning regulations. I can accept that that may be your line of business, but you argue the case like you have just been offered the job as manager of the new store. What is your agenda here?
.

you argue it like you're getting discounted petrol at garrigans we've all an agenda in this thread, that's why we're posting, in fairness.

Beasty

BollickyBill wrote: »

What is your agenda here?

Pool5 has confirmed he has no connection with this proposal, so leave it there

Thanks

Beasty

Pool5

BollickyBill wrote: »

Dear Poo 15, for someone who has no personal interest in this Lidl issue, you sure seem to know a lot about mini-markets and the number of lines they carry.You also seem to be very familiar with planning and zoning regulations.

Dear Bill, all of the information you have cited above is available on the planning application, the DP and Zoning map, all available to view on FCC. I admit that it does seem to be something of a novelty on this thread for somebody to have actually consulted these documents before posting but I cannot control that!

BTW I am also very familiar with Man Utd, their entire squad, number of trophies they have won, upcoming fixtures, history etc but I am not a fan.

BollickyBill wrote: »

I can accept that that may be your line of business, but you argue the case like you have just been offered the job as manager of the new store. What is your agenda here?

And you argue the case like you are a shareholder in JC's. What is your agenda here? Lets not resort to pots and kettles here. I posted to bring some semblence of balance to what was previously a very unbalanced thread/discussion.

BollickyBill wrote: »

I think that you are incorrect when you accuse people of having a "not in my back yard" mentality, when all they seem to be trying to say is that Garrigans garage is not suitable..

And all I am saying is that this site is IMO Suitable. It is Zoned correctly and has a precedent of retail use. It also currently has significant traffic flows in and out of the site.

BollickyBill wrote: »

Perhaps a little bit further west along the Rathbeale Rd. would be more appropriate.

Exactly.......not in my backyard!

tbh

Pool5 wrote: »

Exactly.......not in my backyard!

I think it's unfair to dismiss people's objections as simple nimbyism in fairness. If the traffic at this lidl is as busy as some other stores, it will be a nightmare, and it's not like the area is crying out for a discount supermarket. You're annoyed that your support is being dismissed as you working for them, but you're doing exactly the same by accusing others of nimbyism.

The Hill Billy

OK - The personal sniping & off-topic posts that are going with stop now.

As tbh correctly said earlier - everyone has an agenda. Get over it & discuss the topic at hand without questioning other posters' integrity or feeling the need to justify your own posts.

If you cannot or are unwilling to discuss the Lidl proposal without having a go at other posters - do not participate in this thread. If you do - you may be banned.

If you have a problem with a post - use the Report Post button & myself or Beasty will deal with it.

Take care,

HB

meditraitor

Im not a planner so bare with me, anyone who uses that road regularly should be able to back me up on this.

The road coming from the town centre (rathbeale rd) is not suitable Imho because it only takes one car to stop in preperation for a right turn(doesnt matter which way) for this road to quickly become blocked.

Anyone who comes back down the road from JC's on any given day will see cars turning into the estate just after the garage. If cars are coming from the town direction in a steady stream then the whole road is blocked one way.
I hope Im not confusing you yet, so can you picture cars coming from the town direction and the traffic from the JC direction come steadily without gaps (busy road) then the access to the lidl site is very restricted.

Solution - Traffic lights, NOT see this is not a solution because there is only about 200 meters back to the other lights at the post office sorting centre.
Solution - roudabout, NOT because this flow would be effected one of the ways anyway.

Im sure lidl could pay a Engineer/planner to find in favour of any solution but with the width of the road and the residential buildup from directions on this road it is obvious to even joe soap that this is a stupid plan, only someone who has never used that road could think differently.

Just my opinion, maybe ignorant but honest and non partisan

tbh

my biggest worry if I were living nearby would be the carpark. Combine the new proposed car park with the one already at JC's and you've a vast, empty space after dark - litter and anti-social behaviour are almost a foregone conclusion.

PCros

Pool5 wrote: »

And all I am saying is that this site is IMO Suitable. It is Zoned correctly and has a precedent of retail use. It also currently has significant traffic flows in and out of the site.

Very untrue, that has significant traffic flow now as a petrol station in which local people use and passers by.

By locating a Lidl there you will have people from towns and areas around specifically driving to Swords just for sole cause of shopping there, increasing the traffic tenfold. Its not rocket science.

Larianne

Have people looked at the new objections submitted?

JC's have put in a whopper! :eek:

BollickyBill

Never bought petrol in Garrigans - its too expensive.

BollickyBill

Pool5 wrote: »

Dear Bill, all of the information you have cited above is available on the planning application, the DP and Zoning map, all available to view on FCC. I admit that it does seem to be something of a novelty on this thread for somebody to have actually consulted these documents before posting but I cannot control that!

BTW I am also very familiar with Man Utd, their entire squad, number of trophies they have won, upcoming fixtures, history etc but I am not a fan.




And you argue the case like you are a shareholder in JC's. What is your agenda here? Lets not resort to pots and kettles here. I posted to bring some semblence of balance to what was previously a very unbalanced thread/discussion.




And all I am saying is that this site is IMO Suitable. It is Zoned correctly and has a precedent of retail use. It also currently has significant traffic flows in and out of the site.



Exactly.......not in my backyard!

What I meant by further west along the Rathbeale road was to a more suitable, less built up and less congested area. LIDL will never be in my back yard so your remark is incorrect. I would welcome LIDL but I think that for the various reasons given, that Garrigans garage is an unsuitable location. The current traffic flows in and out of this site are nothing compared to what LIDL would bring. Don't wait until it is built to find this out because by then it will be too late.

PWEI

Larianne wrote: »

Have people looked at the new objections submitted?

JC's have put in a whopper! :eek:

Is JC's objection available to view online?

tbh

PWEI wrote: »

Is JC's objection available to view online?

yes /I'm not sure which one it is, and just to point out - it's illegal to copy and paste it here.

CiDeRmAn

Not sure myself how parking and access would be at the site, but then there is constant traffic in and out of that petrol station all the time.
The site is quite big, going back quite a way and with the demolition of the neighbouring house would be grand.
The problem really is the estate entrance nearly opposite, perhaps a set of lights, horror of horrors!
But certainly an Airside site or the old Woodies store would be ideal.
Also good would be putting the store into an area like the Swords road heading down to Malahide, before or after the M1 bridge, or perhaps the road heading towards Kinsealy, plenty of new, empty commercial units ripe for conversion to a supermarket there.

As for a threat to JCs, many people thought that his goose was cooked with the opening of the Dunnes in the Pavilion, and yet nope, all the customers came back after a brief lull, and a Lidl or Aldi would probably have the same fleeting effect, JCs has an enormous amount of goodwill, and the customers like the experience of shopping there, it's prices are competitive and the atmosphere friendly, that's why I shop there, it's like a giant, local corner shop. And even with the location of a german discounter in the area, I will still spend money in JCs regardless.

meditraitor

CiDeRmAn wrote: »

As for a threat to JCs, many people thought that his goose was cooked with the opening of the Dunnes in the Pavilion, and yet nope, all the customers came back after a brief lull, and a Lidl or Aldi would probably have the same fleeting effect, JCs has an enormous amount of goodwill, and the customers like the experience of shopping there, it's prices are competitive and the atmosphere friendly, that's why I shop there, it's like a giant, local corner shop. And even with the location of a german discounter in the area, I will still spend money in JCs regardless.

I have to agree, and another giant plus for JC's is the fact that he always has enough till staff working, I can't remember the last time I was more than a couple of minutes waiting to be served...... Dunnes/Lidl and aldi never have enough staff on the tills,...

Frank Spencer

JC's submission

No stone has been left unturned!

PCros

Frank Spencer wrote: »

JC's submission

No stone has been left unturned!

Thats some objection!:eek:

Larianne

Frank Spencer wrote: »

JC's submission

No stone has been left unturned!

Makes a sham of Lidl's proposal.

Betty131

As mentioned by many people, I think the idea of a Lidl going somewhere in or near Swords is brilliant. I know lots of people who travel to Balbriggan or Finglas to shop at Lidl. I do think however purely from a traffice point of view that the site at the garage is not good. Far better idea, as some have suggested for it to be placed somewhere like Woodies.

Larianne

The county council have asked for additional information on the application submitted by Lidl.

http://planning.fingalcoco.ie/swiftlg/apas/run/WPHAPPDETAIL.DisplayUrl?theApnID=F10A/0088&theTabNo=2#tabdetails

Bluetonic

Larianne wrote: »

The county council have asked for additional information on the application submitted by Lidl.

At this stage whether FCC approve or refuse planning won't matter as it'll be appealed all the way to ABP by the the opposing party with the decision a year down the road.

meditraitor

Lidl haven't a hope..... They must have a plan B (Germans are very pragmatic) and they should just go ahead and try the next option. <

Bluetonic

meditraitor wrote: »

Lidl haven't a hope

Why?

They obviously do have a hope otherwise they wouldn't spend time and money progressing with the application. They are quite a successful company and well advised so it's unlikely they would waste time and money perusing an application where they don't have a hope.

meditraitor

Bluetonic wrote: »

Why?

They obviously do have a hope otherwise they wouldn't spend time and money progressing with the application. They are quite a successful company and well advised so it's unlikely they would waste time and money perusing an application where they don't have a hope.

That is certainly debatable, are these the people who put in the planning and forgot a 1,000 square foot of retail space in a shop not 100m away from the proposed site, the same people who didn't ask the local community what they thought before going ahead!

The planning application is shot to bits, the local community is nearly 100% opposed.... good advisors would have seen this a mile away.....

Bluetonic

meditraitor wrote: »

The planning application is shot to bits

FCC would have never asked for additional information if it was shot to bits.

Plenty of applications which are strongly opposed by local communities get planning permission and have been built. There's examples in most areas, high profiles ones too.

I feel it's preemptive and incorrect to say this has no chance as only ABP will decide that unless Lidl decide to withdraw the application.

meditraitor

Bluetonic wrote: »

FCC would have never asked for additional information if it was shot to bits.

Plenty of applications which are strongly opposed by local communities get planning permission and have been built. There's examples in most areas, high profiles ones too.

I feel it's preemptive and incorrect to say this has no chance as only ABP will decide that unless Lidl decide to withdraw the application.

Preemptive, your right of course, nothing suprises me with planners in Ireland! The thing is most people in Swords would like a lidl but the planned location is beyond reasoning and an bord pleanala must see this....
You even agree that its not the most suitable location.

If Lidl drag this on I can see someone like Aldi coming in and putting in a planning application in a better area, getting it passed and built before Lidl are out of this planning mess they find themselves in.

Lidl have had plans rejected (;-) in the past and just moved on so lets hope they just open their eyes and look around Swords for a more suitable site.

dan_d

Good idea.Totally, unbelievably, rubbish location!!
Mind you, I'll be sticking with JC's. I like having the options of a few different brands to choose from!

Pool5

meditraitor wrote: »

Lidl haven't a hope..... They must have a plan B (Germans are very pragmatic) and they should just go ahead and try the next option. <

Interesting FI, there is not 1 of the FI's concerning traffic! That is a bit of an anomoly considering that many of the posts in objection to the proposal touted traffic as the primary factor for dismissing the application! It seems the planners think differently. All of the other FI's look very adressable by any consultant worth their salt.

I predict a grant at a local authority, 3rd party apeal to ABP with subsequent grant from ABP, but I guess we will all have to wait and see

PCros

Pool5 wrote: »

All of the other FI's look very adressable by any consultant worth their salt.

Well the consultant who managed to measure the floorspace wrong by over 1000sqm wasn't the best.

Larianne

Does the county council get any money if they approve the site?

Bluetonic

Larianne wrote: »

Does the county council get any money if they approve the site?

Like all planning permission be that residential or commercial they get a development levy which they can set at pretty much anything and have it indexed.

For example they imposed a 4.1m levy on Aldi for development in Balbriggan which Aldi subsequently appealed successfully to ABP.

Planning would not be granted purely to acquire a development levy so best not to even start that conversation.

Larianne

I was just asking do they get any money. No harm in that.

You're certainly up on your planning information! Thanks.

Bluetonic

Larianne wrote: »

I was just asking do they get any money. No harm in that.

You're certainly up on your planning information! Thanks.

Your welcome, it's all down to my noisiness

screamer

Well, I hope that they do get planning on that site, if we were all begrudgers nothing would ever be built in Ireland of the NIMBYs.... . The reason why there is so much traffic on that road is the ridiculous development sites like Applewood that were dumped in the nether-regions of Swords.... and if people had objected to them, then perhaps Swords would still be a nice small place to live in, rather than the sprawling, overcrowded place it is. Lidl will be a good thing, and beside JCs where grocery shoppers are going anyways, is a great location. As for those "loyal" customers who love JCs, fair play to you, keep going there, LIDL's not gonna effect you.......

tbh

Traffic has been bad on that road for years before applewood man.

dan_d

screamer wrote: »

Well, I hope that they do get planning on that site, if we were all begrudgers nothing would ever be built in Ireland of the NIMBYs.... . The reason why there is so much traffic on that road is the ridiculous development sites like Applewood that were dumped in the nether-regions of Swords.... and if people had objected to them, then perhaps Swords would still be a nice small place to live in, rather than the sprawling, overcrowded place it is. Lidl will be a good thing, and beside JCs where grocery shoppers are going anyways, is a great location. As for those "loyal" customers who love JCs, fair play to you, keep going there, LIDL's not gonna effect you.......

And so, this time we should employ some foresight and realise that as a result that road may not be the best location....why couldn't they possible try using an empty industrial unit in the area around the entrance to Applewood there? Or in Airside? The possibilities are endless, there's empt y units everywhere and yet they go for one of the most congested parts of the town!Madness.

Pool5

dan_d wrote: »

why couldn't they possible try using an empty industrial unit in the area around the entrance to Applewood there? Or in Airside? The possibilities are endless, there's empt y units everywhere and yet they go for one of the most congested parts of the town!Madness.

You need to read the thread man and get your hands on a zoning map with matrix. You cannot go into Airside or empty Industrial units and open a supermarket as the sites are not zoned appropriately, serviced appropriately or set up to operate as a Supermarket. Aldi were refused in Airside previously.The possibilities are endless if you were a planner who let supermarkets open up willy nilly anywhere where there is an empty building! They are constrained by the current FCC DP and zoning map/matrix both of which seem to indicate that the site on thwe Rathbeale road is ideal. It also fits very well with the Retail Planning Guidelines

The Muppet

Bluetonic wrote: »

Plenty of applications which are strongly opposed by local communities get planning permission and have been built. There's examples in most areas, high profiles ones too.

Like FCC's own eyesore/head office on main street, If they can give permission to turn a park into that monstrosity they are capable of anything imo.

Bluetonic

The Muppet wrote: »

Like FCC's own eyesore/head office on main street, If they can give permission to turn a park into that monstrosity they are capable of anything imo.

Thats subjective.

It could be argued that the park was more of an eyesore considering some of the activities that went on it.

The Muppet

Bluetonic wrote: »

Thats subjective.

It could be argued that the park was more of an eyesore considering some of the activities that went on it.

It wasn't an eyesore? Having it enclosed led to problems. Using your logic they should knock down the castle and build on it too, they can move onto the jacko park then and build on it and any other piece of green space that kids congregate in. Me, I'd suggest tackeling the anti social behavior would be a far better solution.

Bluetonic

The Muppet wrote: »

Using your logic they should knock down the castle and build on it too

kindly explain how my logic leads to that.

The Muppet

Bluetonic wrote: »

kindly explain how my logic leads to that.

The activities you spoke off take place in the Castle Park too?

dan_d

Pool5 wrote: »

You need to read the thread man and get your hands on a zoning map with matrix. You cannot go into Airside or empty Industrial units and open a supermarket as the sites are not zoned appropriately, serviced appropriately or set up to operate as a Supermarket. Aldi were refused in Airside previously.The possibilities are endless if you were a planner who let supermarkets open up willy nilly anywhere where there is an empty building! They are constrained by the current FCC DP and zoning map/matrix both of which seem to indicate that the site on thwe Rathbeale road is ideal. It also fits very well with the Retail Planning Guidelines

Airside is not set up for retail??....

Our planners have not exactly played by the guidelines lately have they...

The maps and DP are all very well, but applying a modicum of common sense to either would probably make most people realise that that location for a Lidl/Aldi is not good, and a few alterations to the above wouldn't go amiss.

I hear what you're saying, but just because it says it in their plan doesn't, unfortunately, make it right. With the size of Swords as it is, and the existing traffic situation, it just - doesn't make sense.At all.

tbh

dan_d wrote: »

Airside is not set up for retail??....

zoned. It's not Zoned for food retail.

Ollie182

My whole estate got together and filed an objection..
We already have a supermarket on the Rathbeale Road we dont need a Lidl. Its not necessary.

That said, and as much as I disagree with the store going there, I'll more than likely end up looking for a job there.:(

The Hill Billy

Ollie - for what it's worth, 100 objections from individuals will probably have more impact on an application than one objection signed by 100 people.

You can still lodge objections individually & also object on behalf of your children if you wish (they are also citizens of Fingal).

Frank Spencer

Hill Billy wrote: »

Ollie - for what it's worth, 100 objections from individuals will probably have more impact on an application than one objection signed by 100 people.

You can still lodge objections individually & also object on behalf of your children if you wish (they are also citizens of Fingal).

Really? That's interesting and makes sense when you think about it.

pinkypinky

Has it been approved then?

Ollie182

Pinky, as far as i know, and thats what everyone's saying. I could be wrong though.

Also theres been a rumour for a good while now of an Aldi replacing Woodies. It would make sense that Woodies is disappearing because theres an Atlantic Homecare in Airside, 5 mins up the road. Thought I'd throw that in.

shoegirl

The Muppet wrote: »

It wasn't an eyesore? Having it enclosed led to problems. Using your logic they should knock down the castle and build on it too, they can move onto the jacko park then and build on it and any other piece of green space that kids congregate in. Me, I'd suggest tackeling the anti social behavior would be a far better solution.

The town park wasn't an eyesore. The problem was that too many large trees were planted that made it a perfect place for semi concealed anti social behaviour - the fact that at the time Swords was hardly policed at all didn't help. It only opened officially around 1987 and didn't last very long anyway. The difference with the Castle Park is fewer accessible points of entry, better monitoring, and its all open space so far less attractive for misbehaviour.

The Jacko is a far bigger problem for a number of reasons - the land at either end is privately owned, it is considered a community resource, and it isnt really suitable for development nor practical to police. There was a proposal to throw a road through it years ago, what was then the end of River Valley with the end of Brackenstown - it was soundly rejected.

As for the Rathbeale road, the road has been a death trap for as long as I remember. At least 1 small child was killed on that road in the early 1980s before pressure finally caved in for putting pedestrian lights on that road - there were several serious accidents mostly involving pedestrians being knocked down, and the odd bicycle. The garage itself was always a poorly located space - almost directly opposite the Brackenstown road which is quite busy with traffic. It was never a good location to start with.

Its not uncommon elsewhere for Lidl to locate right beside existing shops. They have a certain niche following, wouldn't lose Savages much business - customers are fiercely loyal to JC's family. What would be more problematic would be extra traffic unless the junction was moved further down and lights placed on the junction of the Brackenstown road.

The reason, PS, why the pedestrian lights are placed at JCs was because that used to be a very busy bus stop in the morning, as well as pedestrian traffic going across between JCs and Howards.