Scared for my Dog

akitaluvr · 01-04-2010 3:46am #1

Hi, im the owner of too wonderful akitas, the other day my mam, while I was Upstairs packing, naively tried to put my dogs in the car alone without leads (this goes to show how docile they are) and not asked to by me, needless to say the dogs thought they were going for a walk and went off on our usual route by the time I was informed of this the dogs were gone out of sight I ran to check the local common ground and sent my mother off in the car down the route we take, she found them but as she called them back a small dog was barking at them my mam managed to get one but the oldest, a 2yr old male took up the challenge and fought with the much smaller dog and injured it. The owners were enraged and baying for blood while threathening my mam wit their sons, we triied to be civil and apologise but they swore at us and treathened to kill the dog! The guards were called and the warden informed. This was a once off and never happened before nor any unnormal aggressive act had I ever witnessed by my dogs.
What I would like if anyone knew would be what can I expect to happen to my dog? Will he be PTS??? I have tried the dog warden but my messages have not been returned and the gardai in charge of it is not back till Sunday night but I cant bear waiting around to see if they are coming for my dog!!! Please any info will be appreciated!

andreac · 01-04-2010 9:47am

Im sorry to hear this happened, but unfortunately as your dogs were not under control and they attacked another dog, the owner of that dog does have a case and if they decide to take it further then they have every right to.

How badly damaged is the other dog? Have you offered to pay for the veterinary care of the dog? I would ensure you do this and accept responsibility as it was your dog that caused the damage.

Im not sure if a one off incident would get your dog pts or take away from you. I would make sure you have everything in hand like Dog licences etc in case this it does get taken further.

Please make sure that your dogs are kept under really good control until this matter is sorted. Do you know who the people were that owned the dog? Are they neighbours? If you know them then i would try and get this sorted and go around and apologise again and offer to pay all vet costs and hopfeully they wont take the matter further.

seamus · 01-04-2010 10:13am

Very sorry to hear that happened to you, it's why I'm paranoid about who I let look after my dog. My parents would let her go off for a run in the fields if we left her with them.

The facts of the situation here are that the warden can seize both your dogs while he decides whether or not to charge you with something. If he decides that one (or both) of your dogs should be PTS, then he *must* go to court and make an application before a judge. In order to make a destruction order on a dog, the judge must be satisfied that the dog can be classed as "dangerous".

A dangerous dog is one who has caused damage or injury. So from the outset, one of your dogs is at risk, the other is not because he/she caused no damage or injury. The fact that they're Akitas is irrelevant in terms of declaring the dogs dangerous.

If the warden seizes your dogs, he will compel you to sign the dogs over to him. DO NOT SIGN ANYTHING. If you sign the dogs over to the warden, he has no need to go to court and will just destroy both of your dogs.

Go with andrea's suggestion - go and speak to the owners of the other dog. Explain what happened and offer to pay for all veterinary costs arising out of the incident. They are likely to have calmed down at this point especially if the dog is not permanently injured, and may be more willing to listen to reason. The warden does not need them in order to charge you with anything, but they can drop the complaint, which will make it more difficult for him to prove his case.

Contact your local SPCA and ask them if they know of any solicitors who specialise in this area or who have experience in this area. Most solicitors don't, and will operate on the basis that your dog is a piece of property that you're trying to avoid having repossessed - i.e. they'll work slowly and without the dog's welfare in mind.

The best outcome you want here is to be fined by the warden for:

1. Not having your dogs under control
2. Not having your dogs on a 2m leash
3. Not having your dogs muzzled

And have to pay veterinary costs. If you don't have muzzles for the dogs, get them today and make sure they're wearing them whenever they leave the house (even if it's just to jump in the car). The more you can be seen to be complying with the law, the more likely it is that the warden will accept that this was an accident.

PaulB91 · 01-04-2010 10:18am

just one question - was the other dog in it's own garden or on a lead? if not then I would argue that their dog was not under control

i'm not sure offering to pay vet bills is a good thing to do legally - morally yes, but legally i'm wondering if this is admitting guilt, again depends on where the other dog was and if it was under "control"

seamus · 01-04-2010 10:23am

PaulB91 wrote: »

just one question - was the other dog in it's own garden or on a lead? if not then I would argue that their dog was not under control

Yes, but I would be wary of making a counter-complaint because then you can forget any hope of getting the other couple onside. If you're in a discussion with the warden, then it's worth making the point that both dogs were not controlled, therefore there's 50:50 liability, but I wouldn't go so far as to make a complaint about the other dog (I know you weren't suggesting that

)

i'm not sure offering to pay vet bills is a good thing to do legally - morally yes, but legally i'm wondering if this is admitting guilt, again depends on where the other dog was and if it was under "control"

It shouldn't be a problem in this case. I don't think the OP is going to argue that her dogs were not under control, she would be wasting her time trying to fight any charges.

Afaik, the issue of the "dangerous dog" one is the only one she should be concerned about. This doesn't require the OP to be found guilty - technically the dog is being found guilty of being dangerous - so at worst paying the vet's bills is an admission that injury was caused, but again I don't think that's in dispute.
The key here is stopping it before it gets to court and getting away with some form of warning from the warden.

PaulB91 · 01-04-2010 10:30am

hey seamus, ye a sticky one, would definatly try to speak to a solicitor who knows animal cases, i wasn't suggesting making a counter claim, just use it as a defence

OP are you still in possesion of the dogs??

i'm not sure if the "complaint" can be withdrawn once it has gone to the warden?

crotalus667 · 01-04-2010 10:41am

akitaluvr wrote: »

while threathening my mam wit their sons, we triied to be civil and apologise but they swore at us and treathened to kill the dog!

Bring this up with the gaurds these are two crimes that will give you levarege, if any of them have a history it is enough to get said person locked up, offer to pay the vets if both sides leave it at that.

I doubt he will be put to sleep as it was a first offence and no person was hurt , but do not leave him in them in the garden alone if you are not there the dog warden has the right to come onto your property and take them unless they are in the house in which case he has to have the gaurds enter the house (which is a pain in the arse for him)

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 01-04-2010 10:50am

PaulB91 wrote: »

just one question - was the other dog in it's own garden or on a lead? if not then I would argue that their dog was not under control

i'm not sure offering to pay vet bills is a good thing to do legally - morally yes, but legally i'm wondering if this is admitting guilt, again depends on where the other dog was and if it was under "control"

I feel Seamus in his first post covered it all. Trying to put blame back on the other party, when the OPs dog is clearly at fault, would be a big mistake and also a cheap shot. There is no case here for not accepting blame. Accepting blame and offering to provide remedy always stands in ones favour legally.

The OP is on a sticky wicket and, when push comes to shove, their dog was in the wrong. Was not under control, attacked and injured another dog. If I were the OP I'd be round with the other owners right now and would be very contrite.

PaulB91 · 01-04-2010 10:58am

Ismael CoolS Peak wrote: »

I feel Seamus in his first post covered it all. Trying to put blame back on the other party, when the OPs dog is clearly at fault, would be a big mistake and also a cheap shot. There is no case here for not accepting blame. Accepting blame and offering to provide remedy always stands in ones favour legally.

The OP is on a sticky wicket and, when push comes to shove, their dog was in the wrong. Was not under control, attacked and injured another dog. If I were the OP I'd be round with the other owners right now and would be very contrite.

if you please read what i have said i am not suggesting trying to put blame on the other party but interested in the full circumstances as they will make a difference to the outcome

FYI if you ever have a donk in your car (where no one is hurt) and get out to say sorry to the other party you there and then admit fault and the claim will be on your insurance

Kess73 · 01-04-2010 11:27am

I think Seamus has given the best advice and the advice that makes the most sense to follow.

What may be worth getting on record as well though is the fact that your mother was threatened by the sons of the owner of the other dog, and the fact that they threatened to kill your dog.

Your dog is still the attacking dog and as such is in the wrong, but having a full picture of events on record with the gardai won't hurt, especially if you are worried that they may come back for revenge or if that was implied or directly threatened.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 01-04-2010 12:20pm

PaulB91 wrote: »

if you please read what i have said i am not suggesting trying to put blame on the other party but interested in the full circumstances as they will make a difference to the outcome

FYI if you ever have a donk in your car (where no one is hurt) and get out to say sorry to the other party you there and then admit fault and the claim will be on your insurance

You seem to forget that in this case the OPs dog is 100% in the wrong. There is no room to contest blame. It's not like an accident where there may be partial responsibilites. Although, I hope when 100% to blame for an accident you would take due responsibility. BTW: Verbal admission at an accident scene is not deemed to be binding. Neither is written admission at the time although it can sometimes help in contest of the claim.

jamesd · 01-04-2010 12:33pm

Does it not matter if the other dog was loose and not under control?

seamus · 01-04-2010 12:37pm

jamesd wrote: »

Does it not matter if the other dog was loose and not under control?

No, not really. As Kess says:

Kess73 wrote: »

Your dog is still the attacking dog and as such is in the wrong

The "he started it" defence doesn't work in the case of dogs. The dog which attacked is the one at fault.

The only time that it may make a difference is if the attacking dog was on a leash (i.e. the other dog couldn't be controlled and riled up the attacking dog) or if the attacking dog was defending its own territory - i.e. the other dog wandered loose onto your private property.

akitaluvr · 01-04-2010 12:44pm

Thanks for your replies. So is it the winner of the fight that always gets in trouble? I do not know the owners they were just simply walking their dog and they were adamant my dogs should be put down to the gardai, I tried to be responsible and apologise and offer to pay for any damages but only got to say sorry before they told me to F*** off, sorry wasnt good enough, dog should be killed, son will kill the dog, I shouldnt own a dog etc. I was so angered by them I didnt offer to pay the bills to the gardai but when I calmed and realised it was our fault the dog was hurt the gardai is off for the week and so I cant offer now. It was obvious the other night they would not listen to me, so a civil agreement wont be met and this is why I am so scared! I will pay any bills but just dont want them having my details for obvious reasons! I still have the dogs and have heard nothing from anybody yet so dont know how bad the dog was hurt or if still alive, I cant stand waiting round till next week when the gardai is back on duty to find out if he will be killed! Is it good I havent heard from the warden yet or bad? It happened at the weekend.

crotalus667 · 01-04-2010 1:06pm

akitaluvr wrote: »

, I cant stand waiting round till next week when the gardai is back on duty to find out if he will be killed! Is it good I havent heard from the warden yet or bad? It happened at the weekend.

Do you know anyone up north ?? or in the uk ??? you could move the dog out of the south to a freind / kennel untill you know if it is safe to bring them (as long as the dog is out of the country the warden is not going to care what happens to him (there is an akita rescue in the uk) it would also be worth getting the dog assesed

seamus · 01-04-2010 1:08pm

akitaluvr wrote: »

So is it the winner of the fight that always gets in trouble?

No, just the dog that attacked, whether it wins or not. The other dog is entitled to fight back, and if it wins, it wins. But obviously the owner should do everything to stop the fight before it gets that far.

they were adamant my dogs should be put down to the gardai

Thankfully this is not for them to decide.

son will kill the dog

They sound like they might be scumbags themselves tbh making these kinds of threats, so you'll probably not get anywhere appealing to them. However, that might work in your favour if the Garda knows the family.

If the Garda is off for a week, then it may be next week before you hear from him or the warden. But don't wait around, talk to a solicitor ASAP.

As I mentioned, neither the Garda nor the warden has the authority to decide if your dog should be PTS. They are entitled to come onto your property to seize the dog, but they may not destroy it without a court order. If they seize your dog, do not sign anything.

There are other ways around this. If you know anyone who lives in another jurisdiction - i.e. the UK - then you can send the dog off to them and it will be safe from destruction. You can then assure the warden that the dog is gone permanently, though he may still choose to fine you.

PaulB91 · 01-04-2010 1:12pm

Ismael CoolS Peak wrote: »

You seem to forget that in this case the OPs dog is 100% in the wrong. There is no room to contest blame.

this is what i was trying to ascertain, if the other dog bit the akita first surely the akita biting back was in self defence, you can't simply blame the akita because its an akita, if a dog bit my dog and my dog bit back i would not feel like it was my dogs fault even if my dog bit harder/caused more damage

PaulB91 · 01-04-2010 1:17pm

crotalus667 wrote: »

Do you know anyone up north ?? or in the uk ??? you could move the dog out of the south to a freind / kennel untill you know if it is safe to bring them (as long as the dog is out of the country the warden is not going to care what happens to him (there is an akita rescue in the uk) it would also be worth getting the dog assesed

i have known a couple of people whos dogs got into trouble, and where sent to the UK by the owners as they preffered their dog lived somewhere else than be pts because of a one of incident where no-one and no-thing had been seriously hurt, different story if a person had been bitten though or another creature hurt badly

akitaluvr · 01-04-2010 1:30pm

as I wasnt there for the start of the fight I cant know for sure what happened all I do know is my dog has never been aggressive before and since his neutering he has become even more timid! I dont know anyone outside of Ireland but I could move house if I had to as im only renting and say the dog was sent away or sold up north. I really dont want to lose him and would do anything to stop that!

babystrawberry · 01-04-2010 1:31pm

akitaluvr wrote: »

Thanks for your replies. So is it the winner of the fight that always gets in trouble? I do not know the owners they were just simply walking their dog and they were adamant my dogs should be put down to the gardai, I tried to be responsible and apologise and offer to pay for any damages but only got to say sorry before they told me to F*** off, sorry wasnt good enough, dog should be killed, son will kill the dog, I shouldnt own a dog etc. I was so angered by them I didnt offer to pay the bills to the gardai but when I calmed and realised it was our fault the dog was hurt the gardai is off for the week and so I cant offer now. It was obvious the other night they would not listen to me, so a civil agreement wont be met and this is why I am so scared! I will pay any bills but just dont want them having my details for obvious reasons! I still have the dogs and have heard nothing from anybody yet so dont know how bad the dog was hurt or if still alive, I cant stand waiting round till next week when the gardai is back on duty to find out if he will be killed! Is it good I havent heard from the warden yet or bad? It happened at the weekend.

Hi
Have been reading these comments and I do feel sorry for you to be so worried about the outcome of this for your dog

But if the situation was reversed and you saw your dog savaged by another dog in front of you and were unable to do anything you might have had the same reaction as these ppl?

Should this situation be repeated again (dogs are not under your supervision and not under your control) would the dog do the same thing?

If I was in your sitaution I would definitley get in contact with a solicitor who has experience deling with animal related cases and hopefully a fair outcome will be met for everyone

Best of luck

crotalus667 · 01-04-2010 1:39pm

akitaluvr wrote: »

as I wasnt there for the start of the fight I cant know for sure what happened all I do know is my dog has never been aggressive before and since his neutering he has become even more timid! I dont know anyone outside of Ireland but I could move house if I had to as im only renting and say the dog was sent away or sold up north. I really dont want to lose him and would do anything to stop that!

Talk to rescues in the uk just incase it comes in front of a judge so you can say you have some where to send him , ok you will lose him but he wont lose his life

akitaluvr · 01-04-2010 1:46pm

But if the situation was reversed and you saw your dog savaged by another dog in front of you and were unable to do anything you might have had the same reaction as these ppl?

I can guarantee I would not nor would the majority of people I know, I understand them being angry, shocked and worried for their dog but their is a line and they went completely over it and as we dont know who they are and what they are capable of my bf is sleeping downstairs in case they follow through their threaths! I see where you are coming from but honestly if you were there you would of be gobsmacked!

honeybear · 01-04-2010 1:54pm

I am an avid dog walker & have had a few similar experiences. About 8 years ago I was attacked by a neighbours dog. I never complained but when he heard of the incident he was very apologetic and put the dog to sleep-I still feel terrible about this as I feel it was his poor treatment of the dog that was a huge contributory factor. I must say when something like this happens you go into shock, so I would be very understanding of the other party's emotional reaction to their dog been injured. Personally, if I was in your shoes, I would approach them, enquire after the wellbeing of their pet, apologise and offer to pay any veterinary bills. If a person had been attacked by your dog then I think he would be PTS, but I dont think that will arise here. I dont agree with moving the dog out of the country. I hope my post doesn't sound too negative-just giving another perspective on the situation.

akitaluvr · 01-04-2010 1:57pm

crotalus667 wrote: »

Talk to rescues in the uk just incase it comes in front of a judge so you can say you have some where to send him , ok you will lose him but he wont lose his life

do you think that is my best option? i really dont think i could handle losing him tbh, ive lost everything in the last 18months and really dont want him to go too and i dont think he would be alright wit out me either. its his first mistake and it was not my fault it happened, i know i could prevent it again and even re-train him.

alibaba12 · 01-04-2010 2:23pm

akitaluvr wrote: »

Hi, im the owner of too wonderful akitas, the other day my mam, while I was Upstairs packing, naively tried to put my dogs in the car alone without leads (this goes to show how docile they are) and not asked to by me, needless to say the dogs thought they were going for a walk and went off on our usual route by the time I was informed of this the dogs were gone out of sight I ran to check the local common ground and sent my mother off in the car down the route we take, she found them but as she called them back a small dog was barking at them my mam managed to get one but the oldest, a 2yr old male took up the challenge and fought with the much smaller dog and injured it. The owners were enraged and baying for blood while threathening my mam wit their sons, we triied to be civil and apologise but they swore at us and treathened to kill the dog! The guards were called and the warden informed. This was a once off and never happened before nor any unnormal aggressive act had I ever witnessed by my dogs.
What I would like if anyone knew would be what can I expect to happen to my dog? Will he be PTS??? I have tried the dog warden but my messages have not been returned and the gardai in charge of it is not back till Sunday night but I cant bear waiting around to see if they are coming for my dog!!! Please any info will be appreciated!

Hi all from reading the post it looks like the other dog was off the lead and made agressive moves towards the two dogs (correct me if I am wrong). I think there is a case to be made that its a 50:50 - this should be made clear to the warden, all dogs were off the leads, no muzzels & at least two were agressive.

Myself & my dog have often been attacked by dogs out wandering around with their owners who dont take care to put them on leads, I dont like it at all but I'd never blame the other dog and have it put down. The owner yes but not the dog, if you go and speak with them after they have had a chance to calm down and see how the dog is and if you feel it would help offer to pay vet bills etc... however I would want them to sign an agreement that they would drop the charges. But by all accounts they dont sound like reasonable ppl so this may not be option.

Only option would be to put your point across to the warden & gards and if worse comes to worse try & move the dogs out of your house for a while, the dog warden wont find them believe me (the dog who bit me & my dog still wanders around our area without his owner & I've never once seen the dog warden despite numerous complaints). I hope all goes well with it.

Allgäuerin · 01-04-2010 2:31pm

sorry if i missed it but what breed was the other dog?

Discostuy · 01-04-2010 2:31pm

Without trying to ruffle any feathers here, i think this has blown a little out of proportion.

How badly hurt was the other dog. Did it get up and walk/limp away, or did it have to be carried away looking like it was dead?. Was there blood everwhere or was it just a case of a dog scrap?

Dogs fighting looks horrendous, the noises and actions can sometimes seem 100 times worse than the actual damage being done.

While i dont condone what your dog done, dog scraps happen. At the time they scare owners and people around. But unless the other dog was killed or really badly injured, i think you'd be best to just maybe let this blow over and let the dust settle.

I cant see any reason for a warden or Garda or Judge wanting to push to have your dog PTS.

The warden especially should know the difference between a dog thats out to flat out kill any dog it see's, and a dog that just got caught up in the moment. There is a big difference, believe me.

I agree 100% about dogs being under control, on leads etc, and i am a strict follower of this (my own are never allowed out of the house unsupervised or off lead).

But i wouldnt be shipping him off just yet.

I honestly would be very very suprised if you were handed anything more than a warning and possibly a receipt for vet bills.

My two pence anyways...

akitaluvr · 01-04-2010 2:32pm

alibaba12 wrote: »

Hi all from reading the post it looks like the other dog was off the lead and made agressive moves towards the two dogs (correct me if I am wrong). I think there is a case to be made that its a 50:50 - this should be made clear to the warden, all dogs were off the leads, no muzzels & at least two were agressive.

Myself & my dog have often been attacked by dogs out wandering around with their owners who dont take care to put them on leads, I dont like it at all but I'd never blame the other dog and have it put down. The owner yes but not the dog, if you go and speak with them after they have had a chance to calm down and see how the dog is and if you feel it would help offer to pay vet bills etc... however I would want them to sign an agreement that they would drop the charges. But by all accounts they dont sound like reasonable ppl so this may not be option.

Only option would be to put your point across to the warden & gards and if worse comes to worse try & move the dogs out of your house for a while, the dog warden wont find them believe me (the dog who bit me & my dog still wanders around our area without his owner & I've never once seen the dog warden despite numerous complaints). I hope all goes well with it.

no the dog was on a retractable leed but was barking at mine, thats all i know after that i can only vouch for my dogs behaviour on past events when he has never attacked another dog.
Do you think it would be ok for me to ring round local vets and ask about the dog, just to see how he/she is?

crotalus667 · 01-04-2010 2:37pm

akitaluvr wrote: »

do you think that is my best option?

It's a fall back plan incase the worst comes to the worst your solictor can say to the judge the dog dosent need to be put to sleep coz X in the uk will take him,Also get him assessed ,it will go along way if it comes to court and you can say he is only aggressive when threatened . Check out the dog training Ireland website I think they do assessments for dogs that have bitten Even the fact that you have gotten the assessment done will be some thing that will say to a judge you are taking things seriously

Prepare yourself for the warden to go to the judge to have the dog Pts , that is the worst case prepare for the worst and hope for the best , for what it’s worth I doubt he will be Pts

crotalus667 · 01-04-2010 2:40pm

akitaluvr wrote: »

Do you think it would be ok for me to ring round local vets and ask about the dog, just to see how he/she is?

No , for a start i doubt the vet would tell you anything anyway

andreac · 01-04-2010 2:44pm

What injuries did the otehr dog sustain? did he have to be taken to the vet straight away? Was he bleeding, limping etc??

Dogs fight all the time, it happens, but i honestly dont think much will come of this situation unless the dog was very seriously hurt.

As someone said, it was a dog, not a person that was attacked so i doubt any one is going to get the dog pts for that. Sure dogs attack other dogs all the time and if they were all pts because of this we wouldnt have many dogs left.

Yes, you were in the wrong with your dog not being under control, and its unfortunate that this other dog was attacked, but i believe if you make a good effort to apologise and pay for any vet costs of the other dog it will all be fine.

You could possibly get a fine for having a restricted breed unmuzzled and unleashed but id say thats as far as it will go.

All this talk of sending the dog away to UK etc is a bit over the top IMO so i wouldnt be getting too worried. Unless the dog was fatally injured or needed serious surgery for injuries then i cant see much happening to you or the dog.

Scared for my Dog

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